UK facing most severe terror threat ever, warns MI5 chief

[dick dasterdly]

21 hours ago, Pdaz said:

Nobody's fault but our own. Allow foreign "cultures" and religion to ride roughshod over ours. Fill the country with undocumented refugees and asylum seekers,. Allow religious faith schools to brainwash kids, Allow mosques to be built and community groups to spread their propaganda. Have a toothless criminal justice system and elect a bunch of hopeless lefty PC apologists to Government. Fail to punish those found guilty and fail to crackdown on the missuse of the internet. Why is anyone surprised that terrorism is rife.

 

"Allow foreign "cultures" and religion to ride roughshod over ours."  "Allow religious faith schools to brainwash kids"

 

Agree entirely with the above quotes from Pdaz's post - would only add that ANY religious faith schools should not be allowed - or any religious excuse be allowed to exempt/change the school rules for any pupils.

 

 

1 hour ago, Machiavelli said:

I will not waste time talking pie in the sky. I am a realist. You go and colonize people, don't complain when they turn up at your door. If you go and invade a country on trumped up WMDS nonsense, set a whole region slight,  bomb and wipe out entire families and destroy the infrastructure those people are dependent on, you will be extremely daft not to expect blowback! 

 

Whilst I entirely agree with the sentiment - a large proportion of the murderers were born in the UK.

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

At a superficial level, you are correct - but a more correct response would be to examine why they are here, and who is responsible for the chaos and mayhem that besets the middle east and South Asia. So your opening statement is correct - we in the west bear significant responsibility of the mess we find ourselves in, but not because we opened to door to those refugees, but because we were (and continue to be) significant in creating the conditions that cause them to become refugees in the first place.

 

At a superficial level, I'm almost inclined to take the above seriously - but then I whack myself on the head and recalled that for some posters anything and everything is the West's fault. And as an adjoining implied argument - nothing is ever the other side's (whichever it is) responsibility. Accountability is a one way street, apparently.

 

But regardless, even if one was to accept the premise and book a ticket on the ever-pushed faux, collective guilt trip - how would any of it apply to the OP? 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world; there were 19 hijackers involved in Sept 11 attacks. Are you seriously suggesting that those 19 were representative of the thoughts and desires of 1.6 billion?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no issue of Islamic (or, for those of a tenderer heart, Islamist) Terrorism?

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no issue of Islamic (or, for those of a tenderer heart, Islamist) Terrorism?

Of course not - we sadly see the effects of it all too often and all too graphically. You seem to be spoiling for an argument because I am not sure how such a notion could be construed from my post. Orton Rd (to whom I was replying with this statement) suggested that, collectively, Muslims remain aggrieved over a historical fact:

 

1 hour ago, Orton Rd said:

Muslims have never forgotten, they wanted the 12th but had to make do with 11. They still hurt about their massive defeat at Vienna

 

While he may be correct about the significance of the date of the September 11th attacks, I do not accept that every Muslim, or even anything close to a majority were supportive of the attacks. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

At a superficial level, I'm almost inclined to take the above seriously - but then I whack myself on the head and recalled that for some posters anything and everything is the West's fault. And as an adjoining implied argument - nothing is ever the other side's (whichever it is) responsibility. Accountability is a one way street, apparently.

 

 Hence my writing "significant in creating the conditions...", not wholly and uniquely responsible for them. 

 

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

But regardless, even if one was to accept the premise and book a ticket on the ever-pushed faux, collective guilt trip - how would any of it apply to the OP? 

It wouldn't, as you correctly observe, but it would apply to the post to which I was replying. 

[Orton Rd]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

How many people do you think are actually continuing to act out the modern day repercussions of those events compared to those fleeing contemporary horrors, largely the result of western greed and hegemony? 

Too many obviously, hence yet another threat to go with all the ones carried out and more stopped. The numbers of jihadists are small but they are only carrying out what most followers believe in.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Orton Rd

[Morch]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course not - we sadly see the effects of it all too often and all too graphically. You seem to be spoiling for an argument because I am not sure how such a notion could be construed from my post. Orton Rd (to whom I was replying with this statement) suggested that, collectively, Muslims remain aggrieved over a historical fact:

 

 

While he may be correct about the significance of the date of the September 11th attacks, I do not accept that every Muslim, or even anything close to a majority were supportive of the attacks. 

 

 

 

I don't know that there was a conclusive pole, or that one could/can be carried out. Minimizing the support such attacks get among Muslims (globally) is just the opposite side of claiming terrorists represent all Muslims etc.

[shanesox]

 
I am not sure where your confusion has arisen. Maybe go back and read once more the post from Orton Rd and my response to it. If you are still confused, why not ask an adult to explain it to you. 

Fact is child, stating that there were or are only 19 of Islamic faith wanting to terrorize the Non Islamic world is beyond stupidy!


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[Morch]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 Hence my writing "significant in creating the conditions...", not wholly and uniquely responsible for them. 

 

It wouldn't, as you correctly observe, but it would apply to the post to which I was replying. 

 

There are..what...3-4 posts above, in which the evils of the West and it's responsibility to the situation described in the OP are expanded upon. Not a whole lot said beside that, nothing the implies much else plays a contributing factor.

[Machiavelli]

2 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

The first crusade was called in 1095 after 300 years of Islam over running the Christian middle east, of the 5 great Christian centers only Rome and Constantinople survived untaken, then after 1495 just Rome. If not for the Polish cavalry in 1683 at Vienna Islam would have taken the rest of Europe as well, Islam has been trying to colonize unbelievers for 1400 years.

Can we get back to reality. Thanks.

[shanesox]

One indisputable fact is that Islam welcomes converts to their “religion”, but anyone who wants to leave..... get ready for its version of hell raining down on you!


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[ballpoint]

1 minute ago, shanesox said:

One indisputable fact is that Islam welcomes converts to their “religion”, but anyone who wants to leave..... get ready for its version of hell raining down on you!


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A bit like the EU then.

[Cancerian]

On 18/10/2017 at 3:39 PM, Jonmarleesco said:

'The spy chief said: “That threat is multi-dimensional, evolving rapidly and operating at a scale and pace we’ve not seen before.”' Then I guess MI5 will have to evolve rapidly, and to operate at a previously unseen scale and pace - the scale seems to be in process, given an increase in personnel numbers of some 25%.

 

'Parker ... said 100 Britons were believed to have died fighting for Isis and fresh danger was posed by the potential return of 850 more who had travelled to its territory ...' And the UK is just going to let them back in?

Surprise surprise 

[7by7]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

While he may be correct about the significance of the date of the September 11th attacks, I do not accept that every Muslim, or even anything close to a majority were supportive of the attacks. 

 The world wide condemnation of those attacks, and all other Islamic terrorism both before and since, from the vast majority of Muslim political and religious leaders as well as ordinary Muslims shows that the majority of Muslims do not support the terrorists.

 

Of course, whenever this is mentioned the resident Islamaphobes dismiss this condemnation as coming from the 'wrong sort of Muslim' or, even more laughable, as lies designed to lull us all into a false sense of security!

 

Islamic terrorism is the major security issue we in Europe face today and I am confident that like previous terrorist threats, such as the Troubles, Baader Meinhof etc., it will be defeated.

 

But it wont be defeated by demonising people simply because they follow the religion the terrorists claim to also follow.

[RuamRudy]

17 hours ago, shanesox said:

Fact is child, stating that there were or are only 19 of Islamic faith wanting to terrorize the Non Islamic world is beyond stupidy!


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Agreed, but the stupidity is wholly yours if that is how you interpreted my post. 

[bert bloggs]

Its a waste of time trying to tell the 2 or 3 posters on here (we all know who) that Islam is not a very warped religion , they are the minority who shout the loudest in the west telling us how not all Muslims are bad , no they are not , but million upon million s of them are or just agree with the bad ones .

after 30 years or so of living  with and dealing with them ,i think i know a little about them .

[joeyg]

On 10/18/2017 at 4:21 PM, Pdaz said:

Nobody's fault but our own. Allow foreign "cultures" and religion to ride roughshod over ours. Fill the country with undocumented refugees and asylum seekers,. Allow religious faith schools to brainwash kids, Allow mosques to be built and community groups to spread their propaganda. Have a toothless criminal justice system and elect a bunch of hopeless lefty PC apologists to Government. Fail to punish those found guilty and fail to crackdown on the missuse of the internet. Why is anyone surprised that terrorism is rife.

 

"Nailed it." The people get the government they deserve.

[joeyg]

20 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

The first crusade was called in 1095 after 300 years of Islam over running the Christian middle east, of the 5 great Christian centers only Rome and Constantinople survived untaken, then after 1495 just Rome. If not for the Polish cavalry in 1683 at Vienna Islam would have taken the rest of Europe as well, Islam has been trying to colonize unbelievers for 1400 years.

"Never spoil a good story with the facts" - Mark Twain

[boomerangutang]

As a comparison:   The Mariel Boatlift.  1980.   A flood of Cubans are unleashed into Florida, mostly Miami.  Right wing Cuban-Americans said to Castro "release our people!" 

Castro thought, "wow, cool, we can empty Cuban prisons and send all the flotsam to Miami."   Florida law-enforcement were nearly overwhelmed.  US prison populations swelled.  Prison riots broke out.   

 

 

[Morch]

19 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 The world wide condemnation of those attacks, and all other Islamic terrorism both before and since, from the vast majority of Muslim political and religious leaders as well as ordinary Muslims shows that the majority of Muslims do not support the terrorists.

 

Of course, whenever this is mentioned the resident Islamaphobes dismiss this condemnation as coming from the 'wrong sort of Muslim' or, even more laughable, as lies designed to lull us all into a false sense of security!

 

Islamic terrorism is the major security issue we in Europe face today and I am confident that like previous terrorist threats, such as the Troubles, Baader Meinhof etc., it will be defeated.

 

But it wont be defeated by demonising people simply because they follow the religion the terrorists claim to also follow.

 

Same old.

 

You fail to mention there were also many exhibits of support for acts of Islamic terrorism. You have no basis for claims regarding the vast majority of "Muslim political and religious leaders", and certainly not when it comes to "ordinary Muslims". There's nothing that shows anything of  the sort as conclusively are you claim. At best, you can come up with anecdotal references - while disregarding anything contradicting your "arguments". However, shouldn't deter you from taking up the usual wide brush comments about "resident Islamophobes" presenting a biased take on things.

 

Islamic terrorism is not "same same" as "the Troubles, Baader Meinhof etc.". Assuming it presents the same sort of threats and that it can be addressed by the same means is thoroughly misguided. To the best of my knowledge this is not a position shared by many intelligence and security organizations.

 

Pointing out that there is an obvious connection between Islamic terrorism and Muslims is not necessarily about demonizing all Muslims. Making a faux argument denying any such references is definitely not helpful in addressing the situation.

[ilostmypassword]

59 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Same old.

 

You fail to mention there were also many exhibits of support for acts of Islamic terrorism. You have no basis for claims regarding the vast majority of "Muslim political and religious leaders", and certainly not when it comes to "ordinary Muslims". There's nothing that shows anything of  the sort as conclusively are you claim. 

 

 

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

 

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

 

 

This seems to leave out many Muslim majority countries. I don't think that there's a reliable global data referencing all Muslims, or that such a thing is even remotely possible. I'd also treat the above with some care as well (and yes, I'm well aware some posters think Pew's data is infallible). The point made was with regard to the nature of  the previous poster's statements, which could do with some qualification, all the more so when dabbling in generalizations of any who oppose his views.

 

Without getting into specific methodology - the

Survey didn't cover all Muslim majority countries,

[CG1 Blue]

On ‎19‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:21 AM, RuamRudy said:

At a superficial level, you are correct - but a more correct response would be to examine why they are here, and who is responsible for the chaos and mayhem that besets the middle east and South Asia. So your opening statement is correct - we in the west bear significant responsibility of the mess we find ourselves in, but not because we opened to door to those refugees, but because we were (and continue to be) significant in creating the conditions that cause them to become refugees in the first place.

Even if the west had never intervened over there, I'm not sure those regions would be living in peace. All that tribal warring just seems to be their way of life.

[CG1 Blue]

On ‎19‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:38 AM, shanesox said:

One indisputable fact is that Islam welcomes converts to their “religion”, but anyone who wants to leave..... get ready for its version of hell raining down on you!


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To be fair, if I wasn't allowed to eat bacon or drink beer I'd be angry too. And I'd probably want everyone else to suffer the same torture, with no means of escape.

 

I think I'm onto something here...

 

[Opl]

 

 

Donald J. Trump

 

✔ @realDonaldTrump

 

Just out report: "United Kingdom crime rises 13% annually amid spread of Radical Islamic terror." Not good, we must keep America safe!

 

 

"Brits Tell Trump to Mind His Own Business After Crime Tweet"

The backlash was immediate. Opposition Labour Party lawmaker Chris Bryant said: “Can you please stick out of our business with such divisiveness? You clearly don’t understand difference between causation and correlation.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-20/brits-tells-trump-stay-out-of-our-business-after-crime-tweet

Edited October 20, 2017 by Opl

[Thongkorn]

14 hours ago, joeyg said:

"Nailed it." The people get the government they deserve.

 Wrong an unelected body of men in the EU make the laws, for Britain , We cannot deport people who want to harm us, because the Eu says THEY have human rights,

[joeyg]

9 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

 Wrong an unelected body of men in the EU make the laws, for Britain , We cannot deport people who want to harm us, because the Eu says THEY have human rights,

OK In this case "technically" I stand corrected.  I guess what I'm getting at is that "wholesale karma" is coming down all over the planet on the "sheeple."  I you believe that kind of stuff.

[ilostmypassword]

9 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

 Wrong an unelected body of men in the EU make the laws, for Britain , We cannot deport people who want to harm us, because the Eu says THEY have human rights,

Which unelected body is that?

[7by7]

19 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

 

 As shown by his reaction to my previous post, and his dismissal of yours with

 

19 hours ago, Morch said:

Without getting into specific methodology - the

Survey didn't cover all Muslim majority countries,

 Morch is not interested in facts and figures.

 

Morch, you are correct that not all Muslim leaders, religious and political, have condemned Islamic terrorism; which is why I didn't say that they did, despite your attempt's to infer otherwise. I said "the vast majority of Muslim political and religious leaders" rather than "all."

 

Do I really need to explain to you the difference between a majority and all?

 

But there is plenty of such condemnation out there for those that care to look; myself and others have posted links to it many, many times. Not anecdotal evidence, but outright statements of condemnation.

 

Yet more examples:

 

The Big Lie About Muslim Silence on Terrorism: plenty of links in there.

 

Global Condemnations of ISIS/ISIL; even more links.

 

Following a specific event: London attack: 500 imams condemn terrorists and refuse to perform funeral prayer for 'vile murderers'

Quote

Worshippers at a mosque attended by Khuram Butt (one of the London Bridge attackers) pointed out that he had been thrown out after ranting about elections and claiming voting was “un-Islamic”, but not detained despite numerous warnings to police over radicalisation.

Which shows that not only do ordinary Muslims condemn terrorism, they also report suspicious activities and persons to the police.

 

Maybe, Morch, you do not equate Islam itself with terrorism, nor label all Muslims as terrorists or terrorists supporters; but as shown by many posts in this and other topics, a significant group of TV members do.

 

[7by7]

17 hours ago, Opl said:

 

 

Donald J. Trump

 

✔ @realDonaldTrump

 

Just out report: "United Kingdom crime rises 13% annually amid spread of Radical Islamic terror." Not good, we must keep America safe!

 

 

"Brits Tell Trump to Mind His Own Business After Crime Tweet"

The backlash was immediate. Opposition Labour Party lawmaker Chris Bryant said: “Can you please stick out of our business with such divisiveness? You clearly don’t understand difference between causation and correlation.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-20/brits-tells-trump-stay-out-of-our-business-after-crime-tweet

 

The figures are for England Wales, not the whole UK.

 

There is a major problem with riding crime, particularly violent crime, in the UK. But most of the violent crime is gang related, not terrorist related.

 

Perhaps Trump should put house own house in order before commenting on others: Was Donald Trump right to blame terrorism for rising UK crime figures?

Quote

As for Trump, he might like to reflect that the 629 homicides in England and Wales – population 53 million – in the past 12 months is somewhat below the 2016 death toll of 758 in the single US city of Chicago, population 2.7 million.