Spain sacks Catalan government after independence declaration

[rooster59]

Spain sacks Catalan government after independence declaration

By Sam Edwards and Angus MacSwan

 

People celebrate after the Catalan regional parliament declares the independence from Spain in Barcelona, Spain, October 27, 2017. REUTERS/Juan Medina

 

BARCELONA/MADRID (Reuters) - The Madrid government sacked Catalonia's president and dismissed its parliament on Friday, hours after the region declared itself an independent nation in Spain's gravest political crisis since the return of democracy four decades ago.

 

A new regional election will be held in Catalonia on Dec. 21, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said in a televised address on a day of high drama.

 

As well as removing Carles Puigdemont as head of the autonomous region, he also fired its police chief and said central government ministries would take over the Catalan administration.

 

"Spain is living through a sad day," Rajoy said. "We believe it is urgent to listen to Catalan citizens, to all of them, so that they can decide their future and nobody can act outside the law on their behalf."

 

As he spoke, thousands of independence supporters packed the Sant Jaume Square in front of the Catalan regional headquarters in Barcelona, their earlier joyful mood somewhat dampened by Rajoy's actions.

 

In a stunning show of defiance of Madrid, the Catalan parliament had voted in the afternoon to make a unilateral declaration of independence.

 

Despite the emotions and celebrations inside and outside the building, it was a futile gesture as shortly afterwards the Spanish Senate in Madrid approved the imposition of direct rule.

 

Several European countries, including France and Germany, and the United States also rejected the independence declaration and said they supported Rajoy's efforts to preserve Spain's unity.

 

The crisis has now reached a new and possibly dangerous level as independence supporters have called for a campaign of disobedience. Immediately after news of the vote, Spanish shares and bonds were sold off, reflecting business concern over the turmoil.

 

ALARM AROUND EUROPE

 

Catalonia held an independence referendum on Oct. 1 which was declared illegal by Madrid and marred by heavy-handed national police tactics to stop it.

 

Although the referendum endorsed independence, it drew only a 43 percent turnout as Catalans who oppose independence largely boycotted it.

 

The independence push has caused deep resentment around Spain. The chaos has also prompted a flight of business from Catalonia and alarmed European leaders who fear the crisis could fan separatist sentiment around the continent.

 

Catalonia is one of Spain's most prosperous regions and already has a high degree of autonomy. But it has a litany of historic grievances, exacerbated during the 1939-1975 Franco dictatorship, when its culture and politics were suppressed.

 

In Barcelona, Jordi Mercade, a 32-year-old engineer celebrating with friends, said he had mixed feelings about the day's events.

 

"It's a day for history but many of us here also know we are not independent. They have the force. We are proud to having declared independence but we know this is not something definitive."

 

It is not certain whether the new election can resolve the crisis, as it could increase the numbers of independence supporters in parliament.

 

Also unclear is how Rajoy's other measures will work on the ground, because of the reactions of civil servants and the regional police, know as the Mossos d'Esquadra, who are reported to be divided in their loyalties.

 

The main secessionist group, the Catalan National Assembly, called on civil servants not to follow orders from the Spanish government and urged them to follow "peaceful resistance".

 

"Tensions are likely to rise significantly over the coming days," Antonio Barroso of Teneo Intelligence said in a note.

 

"Demonstrators might try to prevent the police from removing Catalan ministers from their offices if the central government decides to do so. This increases the risk of violent clashes with the police."

 

SHORT-LIVED LIBERTY

 

A big crowd of independence supporters gathered outside the regional parliament in Barcelona, shouting "Liberty" in Catalan and singing traditional songs as the independence vote went through.

 

Among them was Monica Sanz, 44, a university lecturer who wore a Catalan flag around her neck.

 

"We tried all peaceful means. Moderate people have reached this point because it was impossible to make an agreement with Spain," she said.

The motion, passed after a passionate debate from advocates and opponents of independence, said Catalonia constituted an independent, sovereign and social democratic state.

 

Lawmakers from members of three national parties - the People's Party, the Socialists and Ciudadanos - walked out before the vote. Members of the pro-independence parties and the far-left Podemos then voted 70-10 in favour, in a secret ballot aimed at hindering any attempt by Madrid to lay criminal charges on them.

 

The soon-to-be-sacked Puigdemont left the chamber to shouts of "President!" and mayors who had come from outlying areas brandished their ceremonial batons and sang the Catalan anthem "Els Segadors" (The Reapers).

 

"Catalonia is and will be a land of freedom. In times of difficulty and in times of celebration. Now more than ever", Puigdemont said on Twitter.

 

But within an hour, the upper house of Spain's parliament in Madrid authorised Rajoy's government to rule Catalonia directly. Spain's constitutional court started a review of the vote for prosecutors to decide if its constituted rebellion.

 

In Brussels, the president of the European Council, Donald Tusk, said the independence vote changed nothing and the EU would only deal with the central government.

 

Spain's IBEX fell as much 2.1 percent to a four-day low during the day, 10-year government bond yields hit a day high, and the euro dipped against the dollar on Friday after the Catalan independence declaration. The region contributes about a fifth of Spain's economy, the fourth-largest in the eurozone.

 

JP Morgan said that due to the unceratinty, it was lowering its forecast for Spain's GDP for the last quarter of 2017 and first of 2018 to below the 3.5 per cent seen so far this year.

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-10-28

[FreddieRoyle]

Well well well. Catalonia just left the EU, it took a few seconds, there was none of this article 50 nonsense, nor was there an ongoing saga over a 70 odd billion Euro divorce bill. They just stuck up 2 fingers and left. Very impressive, good luck to the Catalonians after showing such determination.

[cornishcarlos]

1 hour ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Well well well. Catalonia just left the EU, it took a few seconds, there was none of this article 50 nonsense, nor was there an ongoing saga over a 70 odd billion Euro divorce bill. They just stuck up 2 fingers and left. Very impressive, good luck to the Catalonians after showing such determination.

 

How did you come to that conclusion ? They are still part of Spain...

[FreddieRoyle]

1 minute ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

How did you come to that conclusion ? They are still part of Spain...

Catalan parliament declared independence from Spain, ergo they are no longer a part of Spain.

 

I 

[cornishcarlos]

Its not a done deal yet... The government has declared it unconstitutional, so they are still there for now.

[phantomfiddler]

I see violence and hard times ahead, possibly civil war in Spain. Why can,t people just leave things as they are, countrywise ? Mr. Ludd.

[FreddieRoyle]

Just now, phantomfiddler said:

I see violence and hard times ahead, possibly civil war in Spain. Why can,t people just leave things as they are, countrywise ? Mr. Ludd.

Proud peoples will not stand for the destruction of their heritage and culture by faceless bureaucrats. The harder the EU chiefs try to stamp the people into submission, the harder they will revolt. Yes, I believe you are correct, blood will be shed. I also believe this will be a highly contagious situation with Basque to follow - along with many many others. This is the start of the EU's disintegration. Good riddance to it - the damage done already is too overwhelming for many countries to preserve their identity.

[zydeco]

2 hours ago, rooster59 said:

In Brussels, the president of the European Council, Donald Tusk, said the independence vote changed nothing and the EU would only deal with the central government.

 

The arrogance and smug totalitarianism of the EU on public display.

[Grouse]

Well let's hope we get some more insightful comments later in the day. 

[hansnl]

56 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

How did you come to that conclusion ? They are still part of Spain...

That's exactly what Spain and the EU wants you to believe.

In fact the people chose to be independent, which is denied by Spain and the EU, being afraid of democracy.

The Bask will follow suit, like the Flemish, maybe the Scots, who knows will follow.

Which will mean the end of the EU.

That would be a good thing, seeing the way that body is going.

[pattayadon]

1 hour ago, phantomfiddler said:

I see violence and hard times ahead, possibly civil war in Spain. Why can,t people just leave things as they are, countrywise ? Mr. Ludd.

Yeah right! I'm no expert in European affairs but if everyone "left things as they are" (as you say) America would still be a British colony, Mexico a Spanish territory......Canada, Australia, Brazil, South Africa....lol The list is endless....   There will always be change!

[Grouse]

Some first class tripe on here today!

 

Who says that a majority of Catalans wanted to be independent? The plebiscite was unconstitutional and widely boycotted.

 

Over 1000 companies have shifted to Madrid

 

What are the Catalans moaning about? They have great autonomy already!

 

It's greed you see. Some Catalans resent subsidising poorer regions of Spain. And some just want more power. NOT a very edifying spectacle.

[Baerboxer]

3 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Well well well. Catalonia just left the EU, it took a few seconds, there was none of this article 50 nonsense, nor was there an ongoing saga over a 70 odd billion Euro divorce bill. They just stuck up 2 fingers and left. Very impressive, good luck to the Catalonians after showing such determination.

 

No. Catalonia isn't a member of the EU. Therefore is can't leave. It also has no legal right to rebel from Spain.

[JAG]

32 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Some first class tripe on here today!

 

Who says that a majority of Catalans wanted to be independent? The plebiscite was unconstitutional and widely boycotted.

 

Over 1000 companies have shifted to Madrid

 

What are the Catalans moaning about? They have great autonomy already!

 

It's greed you see. Some Catalans resent subsidising poorer regions of Spain. And some just want more power. NOT a very edifying spectacle.

 

Personally, I don't feel that declaring a plebiscite unconstitutional (because it may produce a result you dislike) and then doing your best to prevent it, including using a paramilitary police force to fire baton rounds and hurl CS Gas grenades at people who merely wish to cast a vote, is a very edifying spectacle. But then I am not as steeped in the long tradition of democracy in the Iberian Peninsula, or indeed in much of Central and Eastern Europe, as the more insightful on here are...

 

I suppose in our glorious Union, even the suggestion that people should have the right to even propose self-determination, is tripe now? But then tripe was always the food of the common folk, rather than the "Foie gras" of the enlightened ones who rule.

Edited October 28, 2017 by JAG

[Baerboxer]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Some first class tripe on here today!

 

Who says that a majority of Catalans wanted to be independent? The plebiscite was unconstitutional and widely boycotted.

 

Over 1000 companies have shifted to Madrid

 

What are the Catalans moaning about? They have great autonomy already!

 

It's greed you see. Some Catalans resent subsidising poorer regions of Spain. And some just want more power. NOT a very edifying spectacle.

 

Agree Grousy! (Have start considering pheasant as an alternative at this rate!),

 

The referendum was declared illegal so 57% of the electorate chose not to take part in an illegal act.

 

Those who have tried to manipulate politics and people to grab power and grandeur now need to be brought to book.

 

Well done the EU, NATO, various European countries and the USA who all made statements supporting sovereign Spain and it's lawful government.

[JAG]

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

No. Catalonia isn't a member of the EU. Therefore is can't leave. It also has no legal right to rebel from Spain.

Well.no rebellious province has a legal right to rebel. That is rather the point of a rebellion!

[JAG]

Being vaguely interested in this, I have recently watched the 6 part ITV documentary on the Spanish Civil War - it is available on Utube.

 

Apart from underscoring just how unpleasant and savage many elements on both sides were, it also gives an insight into why the central authority in Madrid is so despised by both the Basques and the Catalonians.

Edited October 28, 2017 by JAG

[Baerboxer]

5 minutes ago, JAG said:

Personally, I don't feel that declaring a plebiscite unconstitutional (because it may produce a result you dislike) and then doing your best to prevent it, including using a paramilitary police force to fire baton rounds and hurl CS Gas grenades at people who merely wish to cast a vote, is a very edifying spectacle. But then I am not as steeped in the long tradition of democracy in the Iberian Peninsula, or indeed in much of Central and Eastern Europe, as the more insightful on here are...

 

I suppose in our glorious Union, even the suggestion that people should have the right to even propose self-determination, is tripe now?

 

So you seem to be saying that any group who wish to can call a vote and then use the result of that vote to declare themselves an independent country? 

 

Regardless of the laws, the courts, and the national parliament?

 

Interesting. You seemingly don't support the democratic entity of the sovereign state, but support the right of a group of people to ignore the laws of that state, and ignore the wishes of the majority of people in that state when it suits them.

 

Are you an anarchist? (Serious question).

 

Acting outside the law, ignoring the law, refusing to obey the law are not excusable actions for political expediency.

Changing laws by voting in parliamentary elections, for political parties whose manifestos include what you want is the way. But that must be done within law.

 

Presumably if the Socialist Islamic Republic of Rotherham held a referendum and a high % of those that voted support it, you'd support their UDI too then?

 

 

[Baerboxer]

18 minutes ago, JAG said:

Well.no rebellious province has a legal right to rebel. That is rather the point of a rebellion!

 

Good that you agree this to be an illegal rebellion.

 

 

[Kiwiken]

2 hours ago, hansnl said:

That's exactly what Spain and the EU wants you to believe.

In fact the people chose to be independent, which is denied by Spain and the EU, being afraid of democracy.

The Bask will follow suit, like the Flemish, maybe the Scots, who knows will follow.

Which will mean the end of the EU.

That would be a good thing, seeing the way that body is going.

The History of the World is that Empires rise and Fall. Nations rise and fall, Spain was Roman then part of an Islamic Caliphate then It became the Spain and portugal we know today. Most Countries are made up of different peoples as One tries to force its Culture on another So the others will push back. I think We will see much of the World as we know change in the next 50 years

[JAG]

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

So you seem to be saying that any group who wish to can call a vote and then use the result of that vote to declare themselves an independent country? 

 

Regardless of the laws, the courts, and the national parliament?

 

Interesting. You seemingly don't support the democratic entity of the sovereign state, but support the right of a group of people to ignore the laws of that state, and ignore the wishes of the majority of people in that state when it suits them.

 

Are you an anarchist? (Serious question).

 

Acting outside the law, ignoring the law, refusing to obey the law are not excusable actions for political expediency.

Changing laws by voting in parliamentary elections, for political parties whose manifestos include what you want is the way. But that must be done within law.

 

Presumably if the Socialist Islamic Republic of Rotherham held a referendum and a high % of those that voted support it, you'd support their UDI too then?

 

 

3

 

Umh no, the devolved Catelonian Government is a properly constituted authority. They have long campaigned for such a referendum and had been elected on the strength of that intention. So no. it is not a simple case of "any group who wish to can call a vote and then use the result of that vote to declare themselves an independent country".

 

They have now gone and declared independence largely because of the heavy-handed reaction of the central Spanish Government.

 

Your "Socialist Islamic Republic of Rotherham" allegory is just silly and as for me being an anarchist - well I'm sure on reflection you must realise just how daft a question that is!

[the guest]

Well I can see this situation turning out to be quite ugly. Quite possible the Spanish government could send in the army to restore law and order.

[JAG]

16 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Good that you agree this to be an illegal rebellion.

 

 

Sigh... All rebellions are illegal, from the perspective of those rebelled against. The French Maquis was illegal. Castro was illegal.

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, zydeco said:

The arrogance and smug totalitarianism of the EU on public display.

What was on display was the shambolic populism of a nationalist movement which doesn't have much of a clue other than waving flags. Ring any bells?

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Well well well. Catalonia just left the EU, it took a few seconds, there was none of this article 50 nonsense, nor was there an ongoing saga over a 70 odd billion Euro divorce bill. They just stuck up 2 fingers and left. Very impressive, good luck to the Catalonians after showing such determination.

Actually no. Catalonian independence movement nothing to do with leaving the EU.

[FreddieRoyle]

16 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

What was on display was the shambolic populism of a nationalist movement which doesn't have much of a clue other than waving flags. Ring any bells?

Yes it does, it most certainly does. The bell being rung, is that of the small band of egomaniacs that consider that through some birth-right ,or that they have been to some highfalutin school, that their view is more important that that of others. It is most obnoxious and unbecoming and has no place on public fora. If the Catalan nationalist movement has the popular support of the Catalonians then up to them what they do - much like the Brexiteers that won their supposed nationalist vote. The more the small band of elite snobs moan, the more set in their desires the majority are. Welcome to modern times.

Edited October 28, 2017 by FreddieRoyle

[Machiavelli]

4 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Catalan parliament declared independence from Spain, ergo they are no longer a part of Spain.

 

I 

Hold your horses fella. There has to be some dying first. 

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Yes it does, it most certainly does. The bell being rung, is that of the small band of egomaniacs that consider that through some birth-right ,or that they have been to some highfalutin school, that their view is more important that that of others. It is most obnoxious and unbecoming and has no place on public fora. If the Catalan nationalist movement has the popular support of the Catalonians then up to them what they do - much like the Brexiteers that won their supposed nationalist vote. The more the small band of elite snobs moan, the more set in their desires the majority are. Welcome to modern times.

But they don't have the popular support. Declaring independence on the back of a 43% vote doesn't cut it. The Brexiteers here trying to jump on this bandwagon not exactly edifying, though the ones with chips on their shoulders from their school days can amuse the rest of us.

[SheungWan]

48 minutes ago, JAG said:

 

Umh no, the devolved Catelonian Government is a properly constituted authority. They have long campaigned for such a referendum and had been elected on the strength of that intention. So no. it is not a simple case of "any group who wish to can call a vote and then use the result of that vote to declare themselves an independent country".

 

They have now gone and declared independence largely because of the heavy-handed reaction of the central Spanish Government.

 

Your "Socialist Islamic Republic of Rotherham" allegory is just silly and as for me being an anarchist - well I'm sure on reflection you must realise just how daft a question that is!

Their authority is circumscribed by the Spanish constitution.

[SheungWan]

50 minutes ago, the guest said:

Well I can see this situation turning out to be quite ugly. Quite possible the Spanish government could send in the army to restore law and order.

Hopefully not as ugly as when the Catalonian independence movement used to set off terrorist bombs.