Bitcoin => eco-disaster

[12DrinkMore]

While most of the world is worried about global warming, reducing energy cosumption and increasing fuel efficiency, Bitcoin is taking us the other way.

 

Now, I knew that "mining" bit coins was deliberately complicated and therefore energy intensive, costing last time I looked around USD 1,000+ per coin in electricity to produce. In my naive way, I thought, OK, that's a one-off cost and thereafter they spin around the system at little cost.

 

I admit it.

 

I was totally wrong.

 

Every single transaction in the bitcoin system is estimated to use 200kWh!!!!!

 

The "data mines" are, in fact, using all that energy to verify transactions, and as a payment receive Bitcoins. That is how new Bitcoins are produced.

 

You can install energy efficent LED's, insulate and put in double glazing, buy a fuel saving car. All for the social good. Save the planet.

 

But make one single transaction using Bitcoin and it results in 200kWh of heat released.

 

But it is far worse, because that energy has to be produced somehow. And well over two thirds of global electricity production is through burning fossils.

 

Bitcoin should be banned totally just on that.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/electricity-required-for-single-bitcoin-trade-could-power-a-house-for-a-month-2017-10

 

Anyone using Bitcoin and claims to be against Global Warming is in a moral dilemma.

 

(And the (yet to be heard) argument that a lot of Bitcoin mining is located in China using cheap hydroelectric power doesn't work. If Bitcoin wasn't being mined, then coal fired power stations could burn less coal)

 

Ban the Bitcoin!

[Jdietz]

Bitcoin, the only currency keeping the ice age at bay!

Support bitcoin!

 

[BuaBS]

This ad was paid by and appoved by Central bankers and money hungry governments and intelligence agencies looking for terrorists.

Edited January 6, 2018 by BuaBS

[observer90210]

One may have some reasonable belief, that those having made a fortune in the last years on Bitcoin$, won't give a hoot on the greengas issue !!

[speedtripler]

You might want to get a clue  before posting, I'll help you :

 

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-has-less-environmental-impact-than-fiat-currencies

[Air Smiles]

If you think about normal currencies that require entire industrialised countries to power them in existence, involving the carbon footprints of sometimes hundreds of millions even billions of people ....while Bitcoin only needs computers to exist.

[speedtripler]

Just now, Air Smiles said:

If you think about normal currencies that require entire industrialised countries to power them in existence, involving the carbon footprints of sometimes hundreds of millions even billions of people ....while Bitcoin only needs computers to exist.

Bitcoin is far more economical and less wasteful than the current monetary system... 

 

https://hackernoon.com/bitcoin-doesnt-waste-electricity-649694ea3605

[KhunMhee]

[BEVUP]

Sound like some crap from the Auss Grenies & along with the Auss banks that are unwilling to cooperate with Bitcoin transactions (calling them suspicious transactions )

[dotpoom]

What a facinating OP...thank you....especially for me that knows little or nothing about the subject.

[12DrinkMore]

As expected the Bitcoin Band is banging their drums in defence.

 

Other little snippets 

 

- instantaneous transactions is a lie. Any transaction goes into the "mempool" and waits for the data miners to come along and start processing it. There is a fee charged for doing this. If you don't offer a high enough fee, your transaction will simply sit on the back burner, leaving you hanging on with no idea when your transaction will be processed.

 

- the algorithm is designed to increase processing costs as the blockchains get longer with each transaction, this means as the total number of transactions increases the cost of each transaction also increases. There is no "economy of scale", things just get more expensive.

 

- Bitcoin transactions are not "low cost", moving in and out of currencies costs up to 10%. Transactions for small amounts such as would be typically used for meals etc also come to around 10%. If you can even find a restaurant that would accept Bitcoin.

 

- Large companies do not, in fact, accept Bitcoin as a payment. They have a contract with an exchange. The company receives currency immediately from the exchange. There is no company accounting in Bitcoins, no staff are paid in bitcoin and no government accepts bitcoins as an accounting standard nor a tax payment.

 

- The only liquidity that is available to Bitcoin sellers comes from Bitcoin buyers. If the buyers stop buying the price will collapse. The final collapse would occur once the transaction processing costs (electricity consumption) exceeds the revenue. At that point the Bitcoin miners will simply turn off their computers.

 

I don't know if I really want to address the arguments linked to above. But here goes.

 

Quote

The report indicates that the annual consumption of power from Bitcoin mining is 8.27 terawatt-hours per year, more than Ireland and other small nations. Nevertheless, this number is actually only an eighth of what data centers in the US consume annually

 

I find this ludicrous. Sure, all those US data centres consume a lot of power, but they are actually running software that is supporting industry, finance systems, government operations, defence, the internet, your mobile phones, the media, hospitals, traffic systems; all of which have some tangible value to the population. 

 

I would claim that to use an eighth of that power just to process bitcoin transactions used by very very few people is a total and utter waste.

 

Bitcoin is running on hype and literally hot air. Once the prospect of huge gains fades, then it will collapse as the buyers disappear.

 

Oh, and one of the articles says there are now 3,000 craptos.

 

Don't get burned by the bullsh1t.

 

[Brickbat]

ITs only blockheads that cannot comprehend Blockchain and it’s significance. And yes, the Central Banksters and their media/ financial “ Guru “ cronies. Not to mention the immense JEALOUSY of the have nots. And never too late. Look at Ethereum and Ripple in just the last 2 weeks.

[mjnaus]

28 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Bitcoin is running on hype and literally hot air. Once the prospect of huge gains fades, then it will collapse as the buyers disappear.

 

Been hearing the very same meme since Bitcoins inception over a decade ago.... Yet, here we are. Anyways, I do consider your posts to be highly entertaining, so do please keep them little pearls of wisdom coming our way 

Edited January 7, 2018 by mjnaus

[12DrinkMore]

3 minutes ago, Brickbat said:

ITs only blockheads that cannot comprehend Blockchain and it’s significance. And yes, the Central Banksters and their media/ financial “ Guru “ cronies. Not to mention the immense JEALOUSY of the have nots. And never too late. Look at Ethereum and Ripple in just the last 2 weeks.

 

You are confusing blockchain alogorithms with craptos.

 

The blockchain technology can be applied to other applications and will live on.

 

Craptos will not.

 

 

[12DrinkMore]

11 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

 

Been hearing the very same meme since Bitcoins inception over a decade ago.... Yet, here we are. Anyways, I do consider your posts to be highly entertaining, so do please keep them little pearls of wisdom coming our way 

 

For a decade Bitcoin went nowhere. Only in the last seven months has it gone up the exponential curve.

 

I am not sure why this suddenly caught the wannabee rich quickly crowd's attention. Possibly Twitter or Facebook had some influence.

 

It would be fascinating to know who bought heavily at USD 13,000 to stop the drop. I would not be surprised if it was a pump and dump by original owners selling out at 17,000 and going for another pump and dump.

 

Time will tell.

 

Quote

please keep them little pearls of wisdom coming our way

 

I'll try.

 

Maybe you could offer an argument in defence of craptos, rather than the two that are mainly used

 

1. "it has to continue to go up because it has gone up".

 

2. "central banks are investigating blockchain technology so craptos have validation"

 

 

 

[jesimps]

19 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

You are confusing blockchain alogorithms with craptos.

 

The blockchain technology can be applied to other applications and will live on.

 

Craptos will not.

 

 

You can almost smell the jealousy oozing out of this poster's comments. What's up, you get in too late? 

Isn't envy one of the deadly sins?

I'll bet anyone a Bitcoin that the OP is a fanatical lefty.

[12DrinkMore]

Just now, jesimps said:

You can almost smell the jealousy oozing out of this poster's comments. What's up, you get in too late? 

Isn't envy one of the deadly sins?

I'll bet anyone a Bitcoin that the OP is a fanatical lefty.

 

Please ease up on the feeble ad hominem arguments.

 

Thanks.

[KhunMhee]

Question is why the OP posted this question to begin with? Angry financial advisor who missed out or someone who has family or friends in banking? Either way you seem a bit upset I'm sure that it does not ruin your life and the electrical equivalent is not as much as you think. You're looking from an extreme case. Was happy to get my coin at just over 4k  never through it would jump to its current price and I will be interested to see how much further it goes. Lots will do anything to avoid the tax man.

[mjnaus]

7 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Maybe you could offer an argument in defence of craptos, rather than the two that are mainly used

 

 

Why on earth would I bother arguing with someone who's clearly highly emotional about the matter? Nothing anyone could say or argue will have any affect; you have missed the boat and will do everything to desperately cling to the idea that you indeed made the right decision... I get it; I would probably feel the same way.

 

In all honesty, I have no clue what will happen with the different cryptos out there, although I believe in the technology and ideology behind it. I was lucky enough to get my hands on several crypto currencies at the right times and was able to make a fair sum of money selling at the right times. Is some of all this hyped up? Maybe.. I honestly don't give a tiny rat's ass. I will continue to sell and make money doing so. 

 

While I myself and others like me will continue to make money; those who don't partake will continue to shit all over Bitcoin and other crypto's and continue to come up with reasons why it's evil, why it should be banned, why it's the worst environmental crisis known to man (thanks for that one, hadn't heard it before and almost pissed myself reading it), etc. . C'est la vie... 

[12DrinkMore]

9 minutes ago, KhunMhee said:

Question is why the OP posted this question to begin with?

 

Because I wanted to start the discussion after recommendations were made that another poster should put his retirement funds into Bitcoin.

 

So far, after listing a few, IMO, valid criticisms against Bitcoin, the only arguments for it have been ad hominem and "I am making money, boo sucks to you because you ain't", and now "tax avoidance".

 

Aiming for the impossible. Maybe Bitcoin owners could list their experience?

 

I personally do not know of anybody that has owned a Bitcoin. Nobody. 

 

- DId you buy Bitcoin as a speculative asset or because of its use to buy and sell goods/services?

 

- Have you ever bought a good or service with Bitcoin? How did it go? Charges? Better deal than cash, credit card or bank transfer? Why?

 

- Have you ever tried to exchange substantial amounts of Bitcoin into currency? How did it go? Charges?

 

- Are you substantially invested in Bitcoin (>40% of net assets) or just playing around with a couple of percent?

 

The current market capitalisation of Bitcoin is a huge $284,971,500,292. This is a substantial phenomena. There is no way of knowing what was actually paid, but way way less than that. The original entrants paid almost nothing and apparently still own around 40%, doubtless many have sold a few Bitcoins and made a considerable pile. They possibly don't care too much about where the price goes, except as an ego boost.

 

Still, as the exit requires a real buyer with cash, how many could get cash out if the music stops? If just 1% became discouraged brcause the price did not go up for say 6 months, what is the chance of 3 billion Dollars from new punters being found?

 

I am fascinated by it all. I simply cannot discern any intrinsic value in it whatsoever. Zero. Other than the fervent belief of a bunch of random anonymous people scattered across the globe.

 

It is the only such asset I know of.

 

Gold is possibly the closest, but gold is recognised by every person on the planet, has thousands of years of history as a monetary metal, looks nice and holding an ingot just exudes the feeling it is something special. Gold will never go out of fashion.

 

 

[mjnaus]

25 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

I am fascinated by it all. I simply cannot discern any intrinsic value in it whatsoever. Zero. Other than the fervent belief of a bunch of random anonymous people scattered across the globe.

 

 

No intrinsic value whatsoever eh? Pretty much sums up every fiat currency out there. The same could be argued for bonds and non dividend paying stocks; no intrinsic value whatsoever. One might argue stock represent the value of the company; however without anyone willing to purchase the stock, the perceived value of the company means jack all.

 

Currency derives its perceived value from trust in said currency, once the trust in a currency collapses, so does that currency. That holds true for crypto's as well as fiat currencies.

[rocketman777]

This is why there is a movement away from there is a movement away from proof of work to proof of stake.

Ethereum has already begun this transition

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by rocketman777

[phycokiller]

1 hour ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Still, as the exit requires a real buyer with cash, how many could get cash out if the music stops? If just 1% became discouraged brcause the price did not go up for say 6 months, what is the chance of 3 billion Dollars from new punters being found?

bitcoin is the exit, potentially theres no reason bitcoin holders will ever have to convert back to dollars, that would be a a step backwards

[khunken]

1 hour ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Because I wanted to start the discussion after recommendations were made that another poster should put his retirement funds into Bitcoin.

 

So far, after listing a few, IMO, valid criticisms against Bitcoin, the only arguments for it have been ad hominem and "I am making money, boo sucks to you because you ain't", and now "tax avoidance".

 

Aiming for the impossible. Maybe Bitcoin owners could list their experience?

 

I personally do not know of anybody that has owned a Bitcoin. Nobody. 

 

- DId you buy Bitcoin as a speculative asset or because of its use to buy and sell goods/services?

 

- Have you ever bought a good or service with Bitcoin? How did it go? Charges? Better deal than cash, credit card or bank transfer? Why?

 

- Have you ever tried to exchange substantial amounts of Bitcoin into currency? How did it go? Charges?

 

- Are you substantially invested in Bitcoin (>40% of net assets) or just playing around with a couple of percent?

 

The current market capitalisation of Bitcoin is a huge $284,971,500,292. This is a substantial phenomena. There is no way of knowing what was actually paid, but way way less than that. The original entrants paid almost nothing and apparently still own around 40%, doubtless many have sold a few Bitcoins and made a considerable pile. They possibly don't care too much about where the price goes, except as an ego boost.

 

Still, as the exit requires a real buyer with cash, how many could get cash out if the music stops? If just 1% became discouraged brcause the price did not go up for say 6 months, what is the chance of 3 billion Dollars from new punters being found?

 

I am fascinated by it all. I simply cannot discern any intrinsic value in it whatsoever. Zero. Other than the fervent belief of a bunch of random anonymous people scattered across the globe.

 

It is the only such asset I know of.

 

Gold is possibly the closest, but gold is recognised by every person on the planet, has thousands of years of history as a monetary metal, looks nice and holding an ingot just exudes the feeling it is something special. Gold will never go out of fashion.

 

 

As a non-investor in cryptos I'm interested in your posts which IMO get some of the argument right and some wrong.

Cryptos are not (yet at least) currencies although quite a few companies do accept them & not all immediately convert  them into a 'real' currency. So the currency issue is not yet decided. Bitcoin will never be a real currency with it's creation limit but other cryptos could be in future.

 

I agree with your point that when mining becomes too expensive a substantial part of its blockchain will very likely drop off. Blockchains however will remain for as long as they can get commission for their verification process & it is profitable.

 

There are quite a few other financial instruments which are tradable but really don't have any intrinsic value. Options & futures for example are pure speculation and are really not much different to cryptos except that they have been around much longer. The 2008 financial crisis was caused by banks & others speculating with their own and customers' deposits on virtually worthless sub-prime loans and credit default swaps. Most derivitives have little or no intrinsic value. I happen to be an options trader so I do have some knowledge of derivitives.

 

You might not realise that hedge funds & bank trading systems have invested enormous sums of money into very powerful computer systems called 'algos', many of which trade derivitives, which are just as 'wasteful' of electricity as crypto mining. It's all about speculation.

[12DrinkMore]

1 hour ago, mjnaus said:

 

No intrinsic value whatsoever eh? Pretty much sums up every fiat currency out there. The same could be argued for bonds and non dividend paying stocks; no intrinsic value whatsoever. One might argue stock represent the value of the company; however without anyone willing to purchase the stock, the perceived value of the company means jack all.

 

Currency derives its perceived value from trust in said currency, once the trust in a currency collapses, so does that currency. That holds true for crypto's as well as fiat currencies.

 

You know better than that.

 

95% of fiat is issued by the commercial banks and is backed by the combined assets of millions of borrowers plus their future earnings. These are legally enforceable contracts. The State ensures that the sovereign currency is used by insisting that taxes are paid in the sovereign currency and that it is legal tender for all debts and payments in the country. And the Central Bank is there to ultimately act as a backstop and be provider of unlimited liquidity in the case of a crisis.

 

There is a whole and very substantial infrastructure surrounding fiat currencies.

 

Bonds are backed by the assets of the issuer and his ability to repay. Traded bonds are rated by external companies and no viable company will simply default on a bond as it would severely impair its ability to raise further capital.

 

Non-dividend paying stocks are generally rapidly developing hightech companies, or companies such as Berkshire, which has never paid a dividend but has a huge portfolio of closely supervised companies.

 

Provided there are liquifiable tangible (and maybe intangible such as trade marks) assets still in a company there will always be a buyer at the right price.

 

The only currencies that have collapsed have been either through gross mismanagement of the governement, borrowing heavily in foreign currencies without sufficient trade to pay them off, or by being forced to repay debts in foreign currency which they cannot possibly earn.

 

There is no major currency that stands even the slightest chance of a collapse. Switzerland has been issuing vast quantities of CHF and buying foreign assets with no sign of any collapse, same for Japan, Europe, UK and the States.

 

 

 

 

[12DrinkMore]

15 minutes ago, phycokiller said:

bitcoin is the exit

[mjnaus]

6 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

95% of fiat is issued by the commercial banks and is backed by the combined assets of millions of borrowers plus their future earnings. These are legally enforceable contracts. The State ensures that the sovereign currency is used by insisting that taxes are paid in the sovereign currency and that it is legal tender for all debts and payments in the country. And the Central Bank is there to ultimately act as a backstop and be provider of unlimited liquidity in the case of a crisis.

 

Whether any of this holds any water is highly debatable. Either way, we weren't discussing what is backing currencies or other investment vehicles, we were discussing intrinsic value... You brought up the non-existing intrinsic value of cryptos, and I brought up the non existing intrinsic value of fiat currencies and other conventional investment vehicles. No matter who or what you think is backing fiat currencies, they still have zero intrinsic value... 

Edited January 7, 2018 by mjnaus

[12DrinkMore]

15 minutes ago, khunken said:

As a non-investor in cryptos I'm interested in your posts which IMO get some of the argument right and some wrong.

Cryptos are not (yet at least) currencies although quite a few companies do accept them & not all immediately convert  them into a 'real' currency. So the currency issue is not yet decided. Bitcoin will never be a real currency with it's creation limit but other cryptos could be in future.

 

I agree with your point that when mining becomes too expensive a substantial part of its blockchain will very likely drop off. Blockchains however will remain for as long as they can get commission for their verification process & it is profitable.

 

There are quite a few other financial instruments which are tradable but really don't have any intrinsic value. Options & futures for example are pure speculation and are really not much different to cryptos except that they have been around much longer. The 2008 financial crisis was caused by banks & others speculating with their own and customers' deposits on virtually worthless sub-prime loans and credit default swaps. Most derivitives have little or no intrinsic value. I happen to be an options trader so I do have some knowledge of derivitives.

 

You might not realise that hedge funds & bank trading systems have invested enormous sums of money into very powerful computer systems called 'algos', many of which trade derivitives, which are just as 'wasteful' of electricity as crypto mining. It's all about speculation.

 

Thanks for a decent reply.

 

There maybe a few small companies pepared to take the volatility risk, but most will want to secure the currency so they can pay bills,

 

Options and futures have developed from their original use into speculative instruments, but there are still a large number that are used as insurance against adverse prices. The vast majority expire worth nothing.

 

I don't think that a comparison between investment banks and hedge funds activities and craptos can be made. Options always have two knowledgable counterparties and there is always liquidity. I also agree that far too munch energy is wasted on speculation and unnecessary trading.

 

This is not really where I want to go into the subprime crisis, except to say that it is a good example where governments, central banks and investment banks moved rapidly around the globe in  a concerted action to limit the damage. There will be no-one there when Bitcoin has a liquidity crisis.

 

[12DrinkMore]

13 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

 

Whether any of this holds any water is highly debatable. Either way, we weren't discussing what is backing currencies or other investment vehicles, we were discussing intrinsic value... You brought up the non-existing intrinsic value of cryptos, and I brought up the non existing intrinsic value of fiat currencies and other conventional investment vehicles. No matter who or what you think is backing fiat currencies, they still have zero intrinsic value... 

 

I have given the reason where there is certainly an intrinsic value in fiat currencies.

 

You have not addressed the argument, but merely restated your conclusion.

 

Tell me why you think the 1,000 Baht note in my wallet does not have an intrinsic value.

 

[mjnaus]

6 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Tell me why you think the 1,000 Baht note in my wallet does not have an intrinsic value.

 

For the same reason my billion Zimbabwean dollars don't have any intrinsic value (other then the paper it's printed on).  May I suggest you have a peak in the dictionary and look up the meaning of "intrinsic value"?

 

Although some currencies have some value in the sense that they are a medium of exchange to acquire other things of value or as a store of value (both of which are based upon trust, hence the point I made in my previous point).

 

The only intrinsic value your 1,000baht note has, is that of the paper it's printed on...