Case dismissed against four accused of launching grenades against PDRC demonstrators

[Bob12345]

41 minutes ago, pattayaorganic said:

Maybe because one side is a profit proposition (let's steal all the rice with government money and split the bounty between us), and the other side really wants democracy. But perhaps that's too difficult for you to understand. But it's a brilliant idea. Let's just auction off the post of prime minister and MP's. Old Chestnut? You obviously know nothing about Thailand if you claim it not to be true. They don't try to hide it at all. 

For someone who knows so much about Thailand its strange you are not familiar with the academic research from an American top university which concluded that vote buying barely had an influence on the election outcomes.

[candide]

5 hours ago, halloween said:

You are just another apologist for the red thugs. Why do you think so many people were allied with the common goal of removing the Shinawatras from Thai politics? IMHO because they realised that democracy had been perverted to allow criminals to buy their way into government and rape their country.

Try as you might to minimise and justify, the facts remain that the reds contain a violent faction that are quite prepared to engage in violence and intimidation against those who recognise the crimes of their owners.

They protested against corruption, right, with the aim of ...... puting corrupt Suthep or the army into power! 

[robblok]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I hope your analogy with Northern Ireland is right, and a peace process can begin that eventually sees PTP back in government. Where are Tony Blair and Mo Mowlem?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

My analogy was a tongue in cheeck for the guy who wanted to get WW2 in the discussion. I have no problems if the PTP gets back in government, because everyone is corrupt. I have no good alternative for them (at least not a non corrupt one). I don't see any peace in Thailand anytime soon because they are all corrupt and being in power is so profitable. So the party that is not in power will find a way (violence or otherwise) to get in power and the whole game will start again. 

[robblok]

2 hours ago, Bob12345 said:

For someone who knows so much about Thailand its strange you are not familiar with the academic research from an American top university which concluded that vote buying barely had an influence on the election outcomes.

Bob,

 

If that is true why then were so many red posters so upset that the current PM is investing int he poor with funds. Calling it vote buying. Why if it does not work for the reds would it work for the army ? ... or maybe popular policies (vote buying) does work. 

[candide]

25 minutes ago, robblok said:

Bob,

 

If that is true why then were so many red posters so upset that the current PM is investing int he poor with funds. Calling it vote buying. Why if it does not work for the reds would it work for the army ? ... or maybe popular policies (vote buying) does work. 

You cannot help but twist other's words. The so called red posters (who for most of them don't mind any party being in power, as long as the are democratically elected) are not upset because the Junta invests in popular policies for the poor (that you qualify as vote buying).

 

They are upset (so to say, they are more sarcastic than upset) because:

- the PM is pretending not to campaign but actually campaigns (as you rightly notice), while at the same time trying to rigg elections by various means

- preventing so called populist policies has been one of the (fake) justifications given for the sedition protests and the coup, and they are doing exactly the contrary of what they claimed they would do. (It is the same for the other "fake" justifications, such as governing without corruption or reforms).

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, candide said:

You cannot help but twist other's words. The so called red posters (who for most of them don't mind any party being in power, as long as the are democratically elected) are not upset because the Junta invests in popular policies for the poor (that you qualify as vote buying).

 

They are upset (so to say, they are more sarcastic than upset) because:

- the PM is pretending not to campaign but actually campaigns (as you rightly notice), while at the same time trying to rigg elections by various means

- preventing so called populist policies has been one of the (fake) justifications given for the sedition protests and the coup, and they are doing exactly the contrary of what they claimed they would do. (It is the same for the other "fake" justifications, such as governing without corruption or reforms).

You twist others words as much its called debating.

 

They are angry because the PM does popular policies but not when Thaksin did them.. i condemn them both. I see it as nothing more as vote buying.

 

The red supporters here would not be angry if it had no impact.. so they are probably worried that it works and some red supporters are turned away from the flock. That is their fear and root of their anger. If it did not work there would be no fear. Because then it would just be free money for the farmers and as supporters of the poor they would not mind that would they. The only thing they fear is that the red numbers shrink.

 

I am against popular policies done by PM or by Thaksin, as IMHO its vote buying nothing more. Obviously it works otherwise people would not do it. 

 

*edit* not against policies that help people actually be self supporting and thus free of political influence against handouts that never solve anything but keep people dependent*

Edited February 4, 2018 by robblok

[candide]

30 minutes ago, robblok said:

You twist others words as much its called debating.

 

They are angry because the PM does popular policies but not when Thaksin did them.. i condemn them both. I see it as nothing more as vote buying.

 

The red supporters here would not be angry if it had no impact.. so they are probably worried that it works and some red supporters are turned away from the flock. That is their fear and root of their anger. If it did not work there would be no fear. Because then it would just be free money for the farmers and as supporters of the poor they would not mind that would they. The only thing they fear is that the red numbers shrink.

 

I am against popular policies done by PM or by Thaksin, as IMHO its vote buying nothing more. Obviously it works otherwise people would not do it. 

 

*edit* not against policies that help people actually be self supporting and thus free of political influence against handouts that never solve anything but keep people dependent*

Well, you can imagine whatever you want about what other people think, for the sake of debating.

As far as I am concerned (as you may classify me as a red supporter):

- I am not angry, I am sarcastic for the reasons I gave in my post

- I am angry at the way the Junta riggs the democratic process for the next elections. Frankly, in case these populist policies have an impact, it will be peanuts compared to the rigging by the Junta through various ways (blocking political activities, appointing senators, etc....)

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, candide said:

Well, you can imagine whatever you want about what other people think, for the sake of debating.

As far as I am concerned (as you may classify me as a red supporter):

- I am not angry, I am sarcastic for the reasons I gave in my post

- I am angry at the way the Junta riggs the democratic process for the next elections. Frankly, in case these populist policies have an impact, it will be peanuts compared to the rigging by the Junta through various ways (blocking political activities, appointing senators, etc....)

The junta is rigging the democratic process, that much is sure. However they can't rig the voting. If the junta is so unpopular then these things wont help them much because nobody will vote for them correct ? I mean popular policies dont have an impact according to you. So nothing they do can change their popularity. So there is nothing to worry. The senators are a problem but they are the only problem set in stone. No political activities won't change people's mind if they hate the junta.. according to you popular policies dont work (i have my doubts i think they work for buying votes). So what is there to worry ? (besides the general not allowing an election).

 

 

[AGareth2]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

The junta is rigging the democratic process, that much is sure. However they can't rig the voting.

you forget they control the count

[robblok]

1 minute ago, AGareth2 said:

you forget they control the count

Too many people involved.. it would come out.. you got a lot to learn about conspiracies... too large and they fail.. counting votes has too many people involved.

[AGareth2]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Too many people involved.. it would come out.. you got a lot to learn about conspiracies... too large and they fail.. counting votes has too many people involved.

keep the faith

[halloween]

3 hours ago, candide said:

They protested against corruption, right, with the aim of ...... puting corrupt Suthep or the army into power! 

Is it that hard to see that those protesting saw Suthep and/or the RTA as LESS corrupt? Or that they were right as subsequent investigation proved?

[halloween]

6 hours ago, greenchair said:

You have avoided the essence of my post which is the violence from red, yellow, and green is about the same.

In fact, there are no exact numbers on the people killed or maimed from any group, but when making a point one does need to use a ball park figure. 

Does it matter if it were 99 or 53. The violence and law breaking has come from all sides. 

 

And to justify that false claim, you quote inaccurate figures to give your claim substance. In reality, it reduces any credibility that you claim.

The violence has come from both sides, but the vast majority of it has come from the reds, egged on by the UDD and ignored by the RTP.

Edited February 4, 2018 by halloween

[robblok]

27 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

keep the faith

Not faith.. logic and reason. Faith is for religious people. 

[baboon]

32 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

you forget they control the count

I think it is more likely they would invent a pretext and void the election.

[candide]

24 minutes ago, robblok said:

The junta is rigging the democratic process, that much is sure. However they can't rig the voting. If the junta is so unpopular then these things wont help them much because nobody will vote for them correct ? I mean popular policies dont have an impact according to you. So nothing they do can change their popularity. So there is nothing to worry. The senators are a problem but they are the only problem set in stone. No political activities won't change people's mind if they hate the junta.. according to you popular policies dont work (i have my doubts i think they work for buying votes). So what is there to worry ? (besides the general not allowing an election).

 

 

First, I never said policies or political programs have no impact. And the difference between vote buying and attractive policies can be endlessly discussed.

Then, who worries? There is no worry when there is no hope. Even if the current PM does not succeed in becoming the unelected PM, the democratic governance will still be rigged by the Junta through all its puppets appointed to the Senate, independent organisations, agencies, strategic committee, etc.... A non Junta friendly government has no chance to survive.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, baboon said:

I think it is more likely they would invent a pretext and void the election.

Agreed, its simply impossible to cheat the count as it involves too many people. Someone would talk and all hell would break loose. 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, candide said:

First, I never said policies or political programs have no impact. And the difference between vote buying and attractive policies can be endlessly discussed.

Then, who worries? There is no worry when there is no hope. Even if the current PM does not succeed in becoming the unelected PM, the democratic governance will still be rigged by the Junta through all its puppets appointed to the Senate, independent organisations, agencies, strategic committee, etc.... A non Junta friendly government has no chance to survive.

Sounds like your backtracking, the difference between vote buying and popular policies is almost non existent. 

 

Sounds like you already given up, if it was that dire then the junta would not be in the problems they are now. 

 

You are right about one thing it would be hard for a non junta friendly goverment to survive.. unless they are not corrupt because if they don't break laws they can't be disposed off. Too bad there is no chance of a non corrupt goverment.

 

I kinda like the idea of a PTP goverment right now they would be checked a lot so the chances for corruption would be lower. They would not be able to pull stunts like Thaksins amnesty so let them be in goverment. They would really have to obey the rules to stay in power. I doubt they even want to be in power like that as the corruption opportunities are low. 

[candide]

29 minutes ago, halloween said:

Is it that hard to see that those protesting saw Suthep and/or the RTA as LESS corrupt? Or that they were right as subsequent investigation proved?

If they saw them as less corrupt, That's equally amusing.

In order to prove that YL was more corrupt than Suthep of the Junta, there first needs to be investigations carried on them.  

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

I say it can

figures can be rigged

why not a count

it won't be the first time

anyway it is a pointless discussion as there isn't going to be an election

certainly not for a while after Feb next year

its not a single count, you seem to have no idea how it works. Yes figures can be rigged but they don't involve that many people.

 

You should look at the process as a three roots.. the figures come from many smaller polling stations to combine to the end total. There is too much paper trail to rig it. You can't just change the end total.. because then the individual counts that are registered won't match. If you start to change counts those that counted it in the lower echelons will know its wrong. 

 

I would agree with you if it was ONE count of all the papers at a single location by a small crew of people. Guess what that is NOT how it works election counts are set up in a way to prevent the rigging of a vote. Only if you involve a huge amount of people can you rig it but with huge amounts of people comes the risk of exposure. 

 

Logic and reason... 

 

as for you no election.. i wont comment on that i have no idea.

Edited February 4, 2018 by robblok

[greenchair]

6 hours ago, halloween said:

And to justify that false claim, you quote inaccurate figures to give your claim substance. In reality, it reduces any credibility that you claim.

The violence has come from both sides, but the vast majority of it has come from the reds, egged on by the UDD and ignored by the RTP.

That's just ludicrous. 

I shall rephrase without your numbers. 

The red yellow and green share the medal for violent deaths and violent acts. Including the act of throwing grenades, beating people up for trying to vote, holding up the airport, frightening and disabling thousands of tourists from their destinations and the shooting by the army into its own citizens that resulted in many deaths. 

Is that more accurate for you? 

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.  Please stay on the topic of "Case dismissed against four accused of launching grenades against PDRC demonstrators".

[Artisi]

On ‎2‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 4:37 PM, joecoolfrog said:

You are probably right but is it surprising ? If all democratic avenues are controlled and manipulated by the opposition then few options are available. Such a phenomenon is hardly exclusive to Thailand , most ' revolutions ' tend to be fairly blood thirsty.

"Revolution", think you need to review the difference between revolution and civil unrest, but come the day that Thailand has a revolution (if they can take a break from breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, snack, intermingled with necessary rest time)  then you will see some real blood-shed.  

[halloween]

On 2/4/2018 at 5:22 PM, candide said:

If they saw them as less corrupt, That's equally amusing.

In order to prove that YL was more corrupt than Suthep of the Junta, there first needs to be investigations carried on them.  

Perception doesn't require proof or investigation. As there are no current reports of billions of public money being stolen or disappearing down black holes, the perception of less corruption holds.

[candide]

9 hours ago, halloween said:

Perception doesn't require proof or investigation. As there are no current reports of billions of public money being stolen or disappearing down black holes, the perception of less corruption holds.

You are right, but I am not sure Thai people are so candid (except maybe the young ones). On the red side, I tend to think they perfectly knew Thaksin was a crook, but it was their side. Similarly, on the yellow side, they were quite aware that the people we talked about were crooks too, but it was their camp.