Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[oldhippy]

59 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Thanks …. but if you are unaware of the particular comment that I objected to, you either did not see it before its deletion, or you are lacking in awareness, and I hope and suspect that it is not the latter.

 

Please understand that I did not claim that being offended made me right, however, I do have the right to be offended.

 

I have also become aware of an even more disturbing trend on this thread than taking offence; it is the support that some posters are giving to others simply because they are in agreement with the way they voted in the referendum, regardless of how crass and distasteful their comments might be. It is indeed rather sad if anyone is prepared to give primacy to their political views over their sense of decency in this respect. I sincerely hope that you are not falling victim to this trap, although I notice that you ask why I want to drag it out over pages and pages, rather than why we, want to.

 

Stephen Fry can say whatever he likes from his £3k a night rehabilitation bed, but I will retain my right to be indignant, whenever I feel that anyone has said something offensive, as I believe  the other poster has

QUOTE: Stephen Fry can say whatever he likes from his £3k a night rehabilitation bed,

A fine example of what some people would find offensive!

But then again, you were already aware of this.

 

 

[vogie]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

What? We've always been mates Vogie! Haven't we? You're Malvern aren't you? Get a grip man!

Somebody help me out here, Malvern?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Somebody help me out here, Malvern?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Signals_and_Radar_Establishment

Maybe I dreamt it?

[beautifulthailand99]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: Stephen Fry can say whatever he likes from his £3k a night rehabilitation bed,

A fine example of what some people would find offensive!

But then again, you were already aware of this.

 

 

Nurse ......NURSE.........BEDPAN PLEASE.....

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I don't think you are correct there.

 

WW1 started with the asassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand and a chain of events led to WW1.

 

August 4, 1914 - Germany invades Belgium, leading Britain to declare war on Germany.

 

http://www.theweek.co.uk/59782/how-did-the-first-world-war-start

 So the U.K entered the First World War, when they went to defend Belgium from the Germans. Yet oldhippy, who comes from Belgium,does not seem to know. 

 

 

[aright]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

 So the U.K entered the First World War, when they went to defend Belgium from the Germans. Yet oldhippy, who comes from Belgium,does not seem to know. 

 

 

What do you expect? He's Belgian. Their national dish is waffle.

[Jip99]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

What do you expect? He's Belgian. Their national dish is waffle.

 

 

Great beers and chocolate though.....

[aright]

3 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Great beers and chocolate though.....

Agreed

[oldhippy]

15 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Great beers and chocolate though.....

And if it is any consolation: we lost Congo, just like you guys lost India.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

16 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

It would be better to look things up than just post your imagination. 

 

The UK is the third largest contributor, Germany and France pay more than the UK, and Italy is less than 1% behind us, so actually there are 4 countries that make substantial contributions, not two as you claimed.

 

The "reality" is that every EU member country has seen the longest period of peace since in history since joining, the same cannot be said for their NATO membership, and that is because while EU membership is based on trade and bilateral agreement, NATO membership is based on arms spending, a display of might is enough to prevent the Russians invading but it is not enough to prevent squabbles amongst us.  Take Greece for example, when they wanted to invade Cyprus they simply removed their NATO signature, went to war, then later signed again, NATO did nothing at all to prevent that war, and there are other examples.

 

The aim of the EEC was never only about trade, it was first thought of by Churchill and the idea was to prevent another European war, the means with which they set about to achieve this was through dependence on each other, one way of achieving dependence was to encourage trade.  Here are the aims of the common market as laid out in the 1975 referendum pamphlet.

The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom.

 

The Euro hasn't bankrupted anywhere, there are countries that have taken out loans and are struggling with the payments, however the EU has paid their interest for them, they did that to prevent them from going bankrupt.  And no one forced them to take out those development loans and spend them on vanity projects while siphoning away their taxes into Swiss banks, they did it all by themselves.

 

The Irish borders issue must be solved, that is all they are saying, we can't avoid this issue, and it matters greatly for the EU as it has the potential to spark off another conflict, but then I guess you imagine NATO getting involved if the troubles start again, keep dreaming, it will be the Eu who resolve the issue.

 

The move toward a United States of Europe has always been the intention, it was the intention when Churchill thought of the idea, it was the intention in the 1975 referendum and so it really shouldn't come as a shock to you, it is the best way to being the peoples of Europe together to live in peace.

 

The EU is looking pretty solid actually, economic growth has been very slow but is now at a 10 year high and predicted by several measures to be entering a Golden Era, no one is going to be leaving once the economy picks up.  Meanwhile the UK has slowed to a stop and is predicted to fall again to the lowest growth in the EU, leaving will put us further behind and will serve as a model reason to remain for the other states where discontent has been growing.

 

 

You are full of misleading rubbish not facts.

More financial predictions? They have proved completely wrong so far. Ask me how Gordon Brown didn't see "Boom and Bust" was on the horizon when the US banks were already in trouble with sub-prime mortgages while he was Chancellor and also sold off the UK gold reserve at rock bottom price.

Where do you get this nonsense from?

 

I will not spend an hour or more looking up things you clearly ignore in favour of propaganda.

Churchill was indeed for a peaceful Europe having been in both the World Wars of the 20th century, but he would never have supported the expansionist, bureaucratic and barely democratic EU as it is today.

His vision was for an economic collaboration that would stop the expansionist ideals of its members and consequently lose any reason for war. (I left out the history lesson)

 

As for figures for EU contributions: since they were eventually forced to have an audit the figures you quote are complete and utter misinformation. I am talking about NET figures (ie: after the refunds and subsidies).

 

So, what do you suggest is the reason that caused Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal into bankruptcy? The EU doesn't pay the interest on the loans, the members and all the taxpayers do.

 

Please continue to deny the democratic decision taken in 2016 by UK citizens. It seems that is what you approve of. John McDonnall said, "It is my job to create a socialist state in the UK", but they all know re-nationalization of industry cannot happen unless we leave the EU. Another hypocritical idiot like the rest of the Labour Party's 30 year Euro-sceptic leader and shadow cabinet.

 

I want my children and grandchildren to live in a self determining democratic country, not be serfs of a bureaucratic dictatorship...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[vogie]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Signals_and_Radar_Establishment

Maybe I dreamt it?

No you didn't dream it, you are thinking of another poster, (Flustered) the one that got himself banned, I was REME, arte et marte not certa cito. 

We had our own flag at 'the wedding'

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by vogie

[soalbundy]

8 hours ago, aright said:

For someone who doesn't like Royalty or the wedding you seem to be well read on the subject.

I only read the captions

[soalbundy]

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I don't think you are correct there.

 

WW1 started with the asassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand and a chain of events led to WW1.

 

August 4, 1914 - Germany invades Belgium, leading Britain to declare war on Germany.

 

http://www.theweek.co.uk/59782/how-did-the-first-world-war-start

The Austria-Hungary government penned an ultimatum to Belgrad after the assassination which was so worded as to be unacceptable to any state but the PM Pasic accepted with only one small exception, this was well received by the international community but the Ambassador for Austria -Hungary, Baron von Giesl in Belgrade broke off diplomatic relations and left for Vienna, 3 days later Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia who was allied to Russia but Austria hoped for a quick victory before Russia could intervene, this didn't happen so Germany who allied to Austria was pulled into the fray. One could say that the Austrian ambassador caused WW1. 

[Grouse]

35 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The Austria-Hungary government penned an ultimatum to Belgrad after the assassination which was so worded as to be unacceptable to any state but the PM Pasic accepted with only one small exception, this was well received by the international community but the Ambassador for Austria -Hungary, Baron von Giesl in Belgrade broke off diplomatic relations and left for Vienna, 3 days later Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia who was allied to Russia but Austria hoped for a quick victory before Russia could intervene, this didn't happen so Germany who allied to Austria was pulled into the fray. One could say that the Austrian ambassador caused WW1. 

I think it's important to consider the underlying causes rather than just the trigger point

 

This is an excellent book. Intellectual but easy reading

 

In fact Germany felt trapped between Russia who were militarising rapidly (building railways to the West) and a sabre rattling France with a huge army. They had a military alliance. Germany asked Belgium for permission to march through Belgium with guarantees. The UK was a bystander to all this. Of course the British Queen, the Russian Tzar and the German Kaiser were all close family and in contact with each other continuously. Who to blame? Read the book, but I think the French. Britain should have stayed out.

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

No you didn't dream it, you are thinking of another poster, (Flustered) the one that got himself banned, I was REME, arte et marte not certa cito. 

We had our own flag at 'the wedding'

 

My apologies sir!

 

Thank you for correcting me!

 

Did Flustered get banned rather than suspended. Must have been a heinous crime. Very frequent contributor as I recall. He should come back....

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

You are full of misleading rubbish not facts.

More financial predictions? They have proved completely wrong so far. Ask me how Gordon Brown didn't see "Boom and Bust" was on the horizon when the US banks were already in trouble with sub-prime mortgages while he was Chancellor and also sold off the UK gold reserve at rock bottom price.

Where do you get this nonsense from?

 

I will not spend an hour or more looking up things you clearly ignore in favour of propaganda.

Churchill was indeed for a peaceful Europe having been in both the World Wars of the 20th century, but he would never have supported the expansionist, bureaucratic and barely democratic EU as it is today.

His vision was for an economic collaboration that would stop the expansionist ideals of its members and consequently lose any reason for war. (I left out the history lesson)

 

As for figures for EU contributions: since they were eventually forced to have an audit the figures you quote are complete and utter misinformation. I am talking about NET figures (ie: after the refunds and subsidies).

 

So, what do you suggest is the reason that caused Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal into bankruptcy? The EU doesn't pay the interest on the loans, the members and all the taxpayers do.

 

Please continue to deny the democratic decision taken in 2016 by UK citizens. It seems that is what you approve of. John McDonnall said, "It is my job to create a socialist state in the UK", but they all know re-nationalization of industry cannot happen unless we leave the EU. Another hypocritical idiot like the rest of the Labour Party's 30 year Euro-sceptic leader and shadow cabinet.

 

I want my children and grandchildren to live in a self determining democratic country, not be serfs of a bureaucratic dictatorship...

 

 

 

 

 

 

You claim what I post is not true, but also say that you "cant be bothered to look it up", so really what you are saying is that you imagine it is not true, well sorry, but it is true.

 

As for the gold and Gordon Brown, he sold off our gold to the banks that did not have any gold left to lend against, he held off the crash a little and lessened it, without the sell off there may have been a global collapse instead of the crisis we saw.

 

Of course Churchill supported the expansionism of the union, he supported a world government.

 

The countries I quoted make the highest net contribution to the EU, I was using the net figures, what did you think I was quoting?

 

The reason that those countries have gotten into debt is mostly because of how they spent their loans, they were development loans and they have mostly spent them on vanity projects.  And when I say the EU has paid their interest, I mean the EU, the budget from the EU countries, obviously there is no other money, obviously it comes from EU taxpayers pockets.

 

I don't deny that referendum, I deny that it is what the British people want today, the result was very close two years ago and all polls indicate that it is no longer what the people want, democracy is not based on a single vote years before, it is based on the will of the people, and that has changed since the referendum.

 

 

 

 

[Orac]

I think it's important to consider the underlying causes rather than just the trigger point
 
This is an excellent book. Intellectual but easy reading
 
In fact Germany felt trapped between Russia who were militarising rapidly (building railways to the West) and a sabre rattling France with a huge army. They had a military alliance. Germany asked Belgium for permission to march through Belgium with guarantees. The UK was a bystander to all this. Of course the British Queen, the Russian Tzar and the German Kaiser were all close family and in contact with each other continuously. Who to blame? Read the book, but I think the French. Britain should have stayed out.
 
 

Indeed - excellent book.

Nobody’s hands were clean in this. Sir Edward Gray did a significant amount of pot stirring as well as UK Foreign Secretary at the time.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[The Renegade]

Time to put WW1 to bed, it is not Brexit related, although it was a helpful little exercise in just how little some people appear to know, or understand.

 

About 10pages back, I said that the probable next Italian Government had learnt a lot from the Brexit non--negotiations, and were adopting Policies that were putting them on a direct collision course with the EU. Despite dropping some contentious parts and Anti EU rhetoric , they were simply looking at another method of skinning a cat.

 

What I did not know at that time, was that their Policies were being put to the Italian electorate for approval or disapproval in an informal ballot

 

Quote

More than 90 percent of Italians participating in an informal ballot gave their blessing to a policy agenda from the far-right League and the 5-Star Movement, as the two parties agreed on a candidate to lead their planned coalition government.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-politics-ballot/italians-back-league-5-star-plan-as-groups-ready-government-team-idUSKCN1IL07X?il=0

 

Another colossal headache for the EU coming up. Can they really try and deny the Italian Government and the Italian people what they have voted and elected Politicians to do ? Despite these policies being against everything that the EU stands for. 

 

Don't give in and the backlash from Italy will be severe, give in and the backlash from elsewhere in the EU will be severe.

 

Will the EU take on board any lessons from Brexit, or will the mantra continue. More EU, more EU, more EU and throw us more money in the process will fix everything.

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

My apologies sir!

 

Thank you for correcting me!

 

Did Flustered get banned rather than suspended. Must have been a heinous crime. Very frequent contributor as I recall. He should come back....

Lets just say Flustered went out with all guns blazing. 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, Orac said:

 

 

Indeed - excellent book.

Nobody’s hands were clean in this. Sir Edward Gray did a significant amount of pot stirring as well as UK Foreign Secretary at the time.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

So, essentially a lot of rich people, who have no regard whatsoever for the common man, use them as fodder to further their own grandiose intentions? Oh, the irony of this being on a Brexit thread.

[tebee]

Somehow I couldn't help thinking of Brexit when I saw this.

 

 

 

[The Renegade]

25 minutes ago, tebee said:

Somehow I couldn't help thinking of Brexit when I saw this.

 

 

 

Why does that not surprise me ?

 

Simple things for simple minds leaps out at me.

[The Renegade]

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

So, essentially a lot of rich people, who have no regard whatsoever for the common man, use them as fodder to further their own grandiose intentions?

That is pretty much the premise behind every major war and conflict known to man, past, present and future.

 

Wars and conflicts are not started by common men in the street.

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

That is pretty much the premise behind every major war and conflict known to man, past, present and future.

 

Wars and conflicts are not started by common men in the street.

But the rich and powerful know how  to channel the common man's emotions to fan the flames and add legitimacy to their cause. 

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

That is pretty much the premise behind every major war and conflict known to man, past, present and future.

 

Wars and conflicts are not started by common men in the street.

I am not sure I agree with that, but that is besides the point - Brexit is a folly being pushed by rich men who want to control the UK for themselves; that is beyond doubt in my mind. The public are the (in some cases unwitting) casualties of their greed.

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

But the rich and powerful know how  to channel the common man's emotions to fan the flames and add legitimacy to their cause. 

Could we stop with the presumption that everyone is a puppet on a string ?

 

Were the mass Anti - Vietnam demonstrations an indication of this ?

 

Was the mass UK demonstrations against the Iraq war an indication of this ?

 

But to get back to Brexit.

 

It woz the Russians that interfered and twisted the vote.

 

Oh no it wasn't

 

It woz Cambridge Analytica that interfered and twisted the vote.

 

Oh no it wasn't.

 

The largest demograph that voted for Brexit is the smallest demograph of social media users.

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Time to put WW1 to bed, it is not Brexit related, although it was a helpful little exercise in just how little some people appear to know, or understand.

 

About 10pages back, I said that the probable next Italian Government had learnt a lot from the Brexit non--negotiations, and were adopting Policies that were putting them on a direct collision course with the EU. Despite dropping some contentious parts and Anti EU rhetoric , they were simply looking at another method of skinning a cat.

 

What I did not know at that time, was that their Policies were being put to the Italian electorate for approval or disapproval in an informal ballot

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-politics-ballot/italians-back-league-5-star-plan-as-groups-ready-government-team-idUSKCN1IL07X?il=0

 

Another colossal headache for the EU coming up. Can they really try and deny the Italian Government and the Italian people what they have voted and elected Politicians to do ? Despite these policies being against everything that the EU stands for. 

 

Don't give in and the backlash from Italy will be severe, give in and the backlash from elsewhere in the EU will be severe.

 

Will the EU take on board any lessons from Brexit, or will the mantra continue. More EU, more EU, more EU and throw us more money in the process will fix everything.

When a government is in power what they said before the election and what they do afterwards are two different things, when in power reality hits, that isn't to say that the present situation is a comfortable one for Brussels, this is worse than brexit.

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Could we stop with the presumption that everyone is a puppet on a string ?

 

Were the mass Anti - Vietnam demonstrations an indication of this ?

 

Was the mass UK demonstrations against the Iraq war an indication of this ?

 

But to get back to Brexit.

 

It woz the Russians that interfered and twisted the vote.

 

Oh no it wasn't

 

It woz Cambridge Analytica that interfered and twisted the vote.

 

Oh no it wasn't.

 

The largest demograph that voted for Brexit is the smallest demograph of social media users.

If propaganda has never had any influence  why is the advertising industry now one on the biggest and most profitable ones ?

 

[The Renegade]

Interesting article in the Torygraph.

 

Quote

The president of the CBI has hit out at politicians for talking down business and failing to champion the causes of British companies.

The negativity is harming the UK’s reputation at a vital time for its overseas image, Paul Drechsler has warned.  Political leaders too often preferred to project an unfair picture of gloom and bad behaviour, he said.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/05/19/champion-british-business-instead-talking-us-cbi-president-tells/

 

That is the same CBI that have been talking the UK down ever since the Referendum and crying like spoilt brats about staying in the EU.

[SheungWan]

12 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

The largest demograph that voted for Brexit is the smallest demograph of social media users.

A triumph for dumb-phone users.