A Thai Monks Duties

[chownah]

Ourmanflint wrote: "But nowhere can I find a reason to live ones whole life as a monk?? "

I don't have a reason for lifelong monkhood but I think I have scriptural evidence that the Buddha expected monkhood to be for life.

In the Vinaya (the Buddha's rules of conduct for monks) there is a ceremony detailed for ordination of monks. I was looking in:

Buddhist Monastic Code II

Appendix II

Going-forth & Acceptance

located at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors.../bmc2/app2.html

In it the applicant for monkhood is instructed on certain basic activities (long going on alms rounds for food) and on certain forbidden actions....for each of these items the monk is instructed that he is to do (or not do) this for the rest of their life.

An example: "A bhikkhu who has been accepted should not indulge in sexual intercourse, even with an animal. Any bhikkhu who indulges in sexual intercourse is not a contemplative, not a son of the Sakyan. Just as a person with his head cut off could not live with the remainder of his body, in the same way a bhikkhu who has indulged in sexual intercourse is not a contemplative, not a son of the Sakyan. You are not to do this for the rest of your life. "

The effect of this (in my opinion) is to clearly indicate that ordination as a Buddhist monk is expected to be for life.

Chownah

Edit: I've been having good luck tonite in my searching for scriptures!! Something else from the Vinaya....from:

Bhikkhu-aparihaniya Sutta

Conditions for No Decline Among the Monks

"[6] "As long as the monks see their own benefit in wilderness dwellings, their growth can be expected, not their decline."

To me this seems to support a monk having a life of seclusion.

Chownah

Edited January 27, 2007 by chownah

[ourmanflint]

Very good Chownah

I do appreciate your much greater knowledge of the scriptures. I can see how " a life of purity" can be easily interpreted as promoting the secluded life.

Is a life of purity one of seclusion? maybe, or maybe it refers to purity of spirit, a life without wrong thoughts or wrong actions, it does not necessarily mean seclusion and "purity" as in life without distraction as would be the case of the ascetic.

This makes more sense when the following sentence is spoken... "for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men."

How cutting yourself off has that effect I am not sure, but living a life of purity in the world, well then you would be visible and available and leading by example "for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men."

Also while this quote "As long as the monks see their own benefit in wilderness dwellings, their growth can be expected, not their decline."

certainly ascertains that living the life of the ascetic can have benefit, it also specifically states that it is not for everyone!! and this does make sense. What is right for one person is not neccesarily right for everyone.

The Mangala Sutta states many, ways to live ones life and living the "holy Life" as being of the highest blessing is just touched upon once, barely. It would seem from this that Buddha did not see this as the only way or even the better way to lives one life, in fact the opposite is so clearly evident.

"to reside in a suitable locality" "righteous conduct" "the helping of relatives" many things to be lauded, but nowhere is there seclusion. I have always felt Buddhism to be about the joy of life, it cannot be about self fulfillment and locking ones self away from that very life.

Edited January 27, 2007 by ourmanflint

[chownah]

Ourmanflint,

I don't think that a life of purity necessarily must be a life of seclusion. The point I was trying to show is that the Scripture I referenced indicates that the way that monks benefit "gods and men" is simply by embodying the life of purity. You may very well assume that the mechanism by which the embodiment of the life of purity is leadership, teaching, or example....but there is nothing in the scripture that I have referenced that indicates what mechanisms might convey the benefits. I might be that a lay person needs a monk on alms round or at the wat to chat with as an example pointing towards the Dhamma....and that a monk who goes on alms round or who chats with the public at the wat needs a teacher who practices in seclusion most of the time and who appears in public less often as an example pointing to the Dhamma, and that a teacher of monks at a wat needs a more reclusive monk who spends all of his time in practice as an example pointing towards the Dhamma..............this chain letter has the Buddha at the top.

It could be that the existence of the life of purity benefits the multitudes in a way that neither of us understands or appreciates at all!!!! I for one do not pretend to understand all the workings of existence.

Also, I looked up the Mangala Sutta and what I found doesn't seem like what you are talking about.....the one I found talks about protection...it is rather short and can be found here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn....2.04.than.html

Is this the one you are referring to?

Chownah

[ourmanflint]

Hey Chownah

I like your view of the life of purity, and of course my interpretation is just that, my own take on things.

The sutta is the same one, but for some reason the translation you picked gives it a completely new twist, I can't see how "protection" and "blessing" are interchangeable, it feels like a different sutta altogether. If you look at the other translations, the sutta takes on a whole new feel, this is ther version I was referring to.

[chownah]

Ourmanflint,

I just read the other translations and I agree that the feel is quite different and I too prefer the use of the word blessing....when protection is used I kept wondering what I was being protected from.

Also, in reading this Sutta it seemed to me that the Buddha's response has a progression to it...it starts by saying to not associate with fools and finishes up with the attainment of Nibanna.....inbetween these two it seems that the Buddha is layingout a likely path of stages in life that one might go through when one is progressing through the Dhamma....what do you think? is this plausible?

Chownah

[jdinasia]

omf --- have you read the rules a monk must follow?

[ourmanflint]

Ourmanflint,

I just read the other translations and I agree that the feel is quite different and I too prefer the use of the word blessing....when protection is used I kept wondering what I was being protected from.

Also, in reading this Sutta it seemed to me that the Buddha's response has a progression to it...it starts by saying to not associate with fools and finishes up with the attainment of Nibanna.....inbetween these two it seems that the Buddha is layingout a likely path of stages in life that one might go through when one is progressing through the Dhamma....what do you think? is this plausible?

Chownah

Nice idea... it does read like a guide to life doesn't it?? It seems quite logical now you've said it.

[bankei]

This reminds me of a quote, from the Vinaya I think.

The Buddha urged his monks to go out and spread the teachings, "for the good of the many, the welfare of the many, let not two of you go in the same direction." (paraphrased from memory).

Bankei

Did some googling and found the quote. It is in the Khandhaka section of the Mahâvagga which is in the Patimokha of the Vinaya:

"Go forth, O Bhikkhus, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, for the good, for the happiness of gods and men."

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha062.htm

and

Go ye now, O Bhikkhus, and wander, for the gain of the many, for the welfare of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the good, for the gain, and for the welfare of gods and men, Let not two of you go the same way, Preach, O Bhikkhus, the doctrine which is glorious in the beginning, glorious in the middle, glorious at the end, in the spirit and in the letter; proclaim a consummate, perfect, and pure life of holiness. There are beings whose mental eyes are covered by scarcely any dust, but if the doctrine is not preached to them, they cannot attain salvation.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/sbe1312.htm

[chownah]

Great work Bankei! The last Scripture indicates that the Buddha wants monks to preach....which probably could also be translated as teach. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that the Buddha wanted to limit them to preaching but since it is mentioned in a talk where he is sending monks out into the world I would imagine that preaching is the highest priority. Thanks for the effort to go find this Scripture!

I might add that in the Buddha's time his teachings were not written down and a major task of the monks after his passing was to memorize the Scriptures and to recite them with other monks to be sure that mistakes didn't creep in and as a method of teaching the Buddha's message. Today of course we have printed Scriptures and even internet copies of scriptures so while recitation of Scriptures does continue it has mostly been replaced by written and otherwise recorded accounts....I have no idea whether this is good or not.

Chownah

[bankei]

Another interesting aspect of a monks duties is care of other sick monks. On another forum a monk has pointed out the requirements of monks to look after each other during times of sickness. In this context, the Buddha said "He who would tend to me should tend to the sick." (Mv.VIII.26.3).