Preparing for UK settlement visa

[rooinekrsa]

4 minutes ago, rooinekrsa said:

Wow Excellent post. Something to think about

Do the polacks,libyians,russians have to abide by these rules? Dont think so, as the first few paragraphs are B.S. 

[rasg]

3 hours ago, rooinekrsa said:

Do the polacks,libyians,russians have to abide by these rules? Dont think so, as the first few paragraphs are B.S. 

A Libyan or a Russian would but a Pole would not. Poland is in the EU and they can currently live here is they want to.

[Fish Head Soup]

21 hours ago, rasg said:

A Libyan or a Russian would but a Pole would not. Poland is in the EU and they can currently live here is they want to.

Only difference is that if the Pole was married to a Thai then they would not have to satisfy the financial minimum of £18,600 earnings to bring her to the UK. She can enter under article 10 freedom of movement as the spouse of an EU national.

[rasg]

Of course but he couldn’t take his Thai wife back to Poland.

[Fish Head Soup]

13 hours ago, rasg said:

Of course but he couldn’t take his Thai wife back to Poland.

Of course he could.

[7by7]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 5:52 PM, rooinekrsa said:

Wow Excellent post. Something to think about

Apart from the inaccuracies!

 

I've already pointed out one glaring one; the test was implemented for ILR 5 years before he says it was, so the goalposts weren't moved after his wife arrived in the UK; unless she arrived before 2007! 

 

Virgomjh, has your wife really been applying for FLR every two years for at least the last 11 years? An expensive business, why not do as i suggested earlier and enrol her on a course to help her study for the test? Most LEAs hold these in their adult education classes; or if none in your area there are online ones as well.

 

Another one; the pass rates are not, as he claims, around 50%, they're closer to 75%. Should be 100%, of course, but I wonder how many of the failures are first timers who didn't bother to study.

 

He also says

On ‎08‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 3:07 PM, virgomjh said:

 

It is outrageous that husbands and wives of British citizens are being prevented from settling in the UK simply because they do not have the mental capacity to pass this test.

Anyone who suffers from a long-term illness or disability that severely restricts their mobility and ability to attend language classes or has a mental impairment which means that they are unable to learn another language are exempt from both the English speaking and listening tests and the LitUK test.

 

The LitUK test is not perfect; but it is improving and the current version has more relevance to British history and culture than Blunkett's original version did. Personally, I do not see why anyone would object to immigrants having to learn something of the history and culture of the country in which they wish to settle. 

 

I also have to wonder how many people here who do object to this test do so for their own family members, but have no objections when it comes to others of a different nationality; Pakistan, for example.

 

Of course, the UK is not the only country to have such a test; and many have had them for a lot longer. In between takes on the set of Casablanca Humphrey Bogart helped Ingrid Bergman study for the US equivalent; and that was in 1942!

 

As for the number of facts one has to learn and the number of words to be read to learn those facts; I haven't checked his claim (who bothers to count the number of words in a book?), but  one has to do roughly the same to get a GB full driving licence! Most people seem to manage that; I wonder if Mrs virgomjh has.

[7by7]

On ‎12‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 1:35 PM, Fish Head Soup said:

On ‎11‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 11:35 PM, rasg said:

Of course but he couldn’t take his Thai wife back to Poland.

Of course he could.

 I think what rasg meant was that he couldn't use the FoM directive to take his wife from Thailand back to Poland but she would have to apply under and meet the requirements of the Polish immigration rules; whatever they may be.

 

Unless Surinder Singh applied, of course.

[Fish Head Soup]

14 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 I think what rasg meant was that he couldn't use the FoM directive to take his wife from Thailand back to Poland but she would have to apply under and meet the requirements of the Polish immigration rules; whatever they may be.

 

Unless Surinder Singh applied, of course.

So long as she has an EEA permit then she could pretty much move as she wished.

[rasg]

52 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

think what rasg meant was that he couldn't use the FoM directive to take his wife from Thailand back to Poland but she would have to apply under and meet the requirements of the Polish immigration rules; whatever they may be.

You would be right. Thanks.

[Fish Head Soup]

1 hour ago, rasg said:

You would be right. Thanks.

There are no financial requirements. That's the point.

 

The spouse of an EU citizen can obtain residence in the EU without having to prove any financial capabilities and then they are free to move to the UK without the need to meet the £18,600 requirement that a British citizen would.

[rasg]

58 minutes ago, Fish Head Soup said:

There are no financial requirements. That's the point.

 

The spouse of an EU citizen can obtain residence in the EU without having to prove any financial capabilities and then they are free to move to the UK without the need to meet the £18,600 requirement that a British citizen would.

At the moment a Pole with a Thai wife could move to the UK without the need of the financial requirement. AS 7by7 said, what he couldn't do is move his wife to Poland without fulfilling the requirements of the Polish immigration rules. I have no idea or that much interest in what they are as those rules will never apply to me or my wife.

[darren1971]

19 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Apart from the inaccuracies!

 

I've already pointed out one glaring one; the test was implemented for ILR 5 years before he says it was, so the goalposts weren't moved after his wife arrived in the UK; unless she arrived before 2007! 

 

Virgomjh, has your wife really been applying for FLR every two years for at least the last 11 years? An expensive business, why not do as i suggested earlier and enrol her on a course to help her study for the test? Most LEAs hold these in their adult education classes; or if none in your area there are online ones as well.

 

Another one; the pass rates are not, as he claims, around 50%, they're closer to 75%. Should be 100%, of course, but I wonder how many of the failures are first timers who didn't bother to study.

 

He also says

Anyone who suffers from a long-term illness or disability that severely restricts their mobility and ability to attend language classes or has a mental impairment which means that they are unable to learn another language are exempt from both the English speaking and listening tests and the LitUK test.

 

The LitUK test is not perfect; but it is improving and the current version has more relevance to British history and culture than Blunkett's original version did. Personally, I do not see why anyone would object to immigrants having to learn something of the history and culture of the country in which they wish to settle. 

 

I also have to wonder how many people here who do object to this test do so for their own family members, but have no objections when it comes to others of a different nationality; Pakistan, for example.

 

Of course, the UK is not the only country to have such a test; and many have had them for a lot longer. In between takes on the set of Casablanca Humphrey Bogart helped Ingrid Bergman study for the US equivalent; and that was in 1942!

 

As for the number of facts one has to learn and the number of words to be read to learn those facts; I haven't checked his claim (who bothers to count the number of words in a book?), but  one has to do roughly the same to get a GB full driving licence! Most people seem to manage that; I wonder if Mrs virgomjh has.

The reason people object to these sort of tests is because there is absolutely no evidence they serve any purpose, they do however make the process of having a stable loving family with a non-EU national much harder and more expensive, which some people seem to think is a positive. 

[bobrussell]

A partner has pretty much up to 5 years to study for the Life in the UK test. It is not suddenly thrust on them!

One reason for the test is to ensure that everyone has to learn English to some extent. The idea being to reduce the isolation suffered by someone living in a non-English speaking environment within the UK. 

People are all too quick to criticise the ghetto mentality seen with some communities. This is a way to  reduce this risk.

 

[7by7]

On 13/05/2018 at 3:32 PM, Fish Head Soup said:

So long as she has an EEA permit then she could pretty much move as she wished.

I think you are confusing an EEA family permit with a Schengen visa. An EEA family permit is issued by UKVI and is valid for entry to or residence in the UK only. A Schengen visa is issued by a Schengen area member state and is valid for entry to all other Schengen area members. The UK is not a member of the Schengen area. An EEA family permit does not allow entry to any other country and a Scengen visa is not valid for entry to the UK (nor the RoI which also decided against joining the Scehnegen area).

 

Of course, the qualifying family member of an EEA national can travel frreely to any other EEA state provided they are travelling with or to join their EEA national family member. They don't even need a visa; provided they can satisfy immigration at their point of entry that they are a qualifying family member of an EEA national and are travelling with their EEA national family member. To avoid delays and complicagtions at the border whilst all that is checked it is advisable to obtain a visa in advance; which will be free.

 

23 hours ago, Fish Head Soup said:

There are no financial requirements. That's the point.

 

The spouse of an EU citizen can obtain residence in the EU without having to prove any financial capabilities and then they are free to move to the UK without the need to meet the £18,600 requirement that a British citizen would.

 

As said, being a qualifying family memeber, a non-EEA national spouse can use the FoM directive to move with their EEA national spouse to any EEA member state, provided the EEA national spouse is exercising an economic treaty right in that state, EXCEPT, unless Surinder Singh applies (see here), the one(s) of which the EEA national is a citizen.

 

As far as the UK is concerned, all this talk of EEA rights under the FoM directive will almost certainly become moot for new applicants at 11pm UK time on Friday 29 March, 2019. 

[darren1971]

19 hours ago, bobrussell said:

A partner has pretty much up to 5 years to study for the Life in the UK test. It is not suddenly thrust on them!

One reason for the test is to ensure that everyone has to learn English to some extent. The idea being to reduce the isolation suffered by someone living in a non-English speaking environment within the UK. 

People are all too quick to criticise the ghetto mentality seen with some communities. This is a way to  reduce this risk.

 

The visa already includes 2 stages of learning the English language, spoken then read and written. I wonder how many expats residing in Thailand can speak, read and write Thai language to the same level.

Edited May 15, 2018 by darren1971

[rasg]

Very few and I doubt many at all to that same level.

[bobrussell]

2 hours ago, darren1971 said:

The visa already includes 2 stages of learning the English language, spoken then read and written. I wonder how many expats residing in Thailand can speak, read and write Thai language to the same level.

All these stages have been introduced to combat the ghetto mentality. A knowledge of life in the UK has been added to improve integration as is required by numerous countries. 

To get permanent residence in Thailand the rules are far more stringent and there is a limit to the number issued. There is also a brief test in Thai. 

Thailand welcomes large numbers of ex-pats because they bring money with them. The comparison between the two countries is far from simple.

Life in the UK is just part of the process to permanent residence (Further leave to Remain still remains an option).

All the Thais I know have managed to pass the test so it cannot be that out of order. 

[darren1971]

On 5/15/2018 at 12:39 PM, bobrussell said:

All these stages have been introduced to combat the ghetto mentality. A knowledge of life in the UK has been added to improve integration as is required by numerous countries. 

To get permanent residence in Thailand the rules are far more stringent and there is a limit to the number issued. There is also a brief test in Thai. 

Thailand welcomes large numbers of ex-pats because they bring money with them. The comparison between the two countries is far from simple.

Life in the UK is just part of the process to permanent residence (Further leave to Remain still remains an option).

All the Thais I know have managed to pass the test so it cannot be that out of order. 

1. Any evidence the Life in the UK has improved integration?

 

2. 'all the thais I know' - that's confirmation bias, all the farmers I know are rich, but I only know 2.

[bobrussell]

My wife and daughter have a very wide circle of Thai friends from a wide range of backgrounds.

Any evidence that making people learn English has not improved integration?

[darren1971]

3 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

My wife and daughter have a very wide circle of Thai friends from a wide range of backgrounds.

Any evidence that making people learn English has not improved integration?

The current rules include learning English and you stated we have a problem with ghettos and integration - so based on your evidence, yes.

[bobrussell]

I did not say we have a ghetto or integration problem. Some communities apparently do.

My family is very well integrated into British society as are all of their friends.

I am not presenting evidence because I don't have proof. I do believe the British/Thai population is not a problem but you cannot discriminate between one group and another.

Making a fuss about bits of law that do not suit is pointless. Get on with following the rules or enter politics to change them.

[saraht1]

On 10/05/2018 at 12:44 AM, letmein001 said:

Thanks for all the info everyone, to answer all the points here:

 

I come no-where near close to qualifying for the financial requirements with savings

 

About the English tests, we will cross that bridge if/when we get to it. My wife will most likely not be working so she should have plenty of time to prepare and her English has improved a lot in the few years we have been together.

 

Ive had plenty of evidence regarding home ownership from my parents such as mortgage docs and council tax bills that I've used with previous visa applications.

 

Regarding meeting the financial requirements, what if I got a new job over in the UK and then we moved over there as soon as it started with my wife coming over on a 6 month visitor visa and then returning with our son at the end of that to start the application from Thailand? I guess I would then need to provide the payment slips and details for the last 6 months from that new job while I stayed in the UK correct? What problems/hurdles could we encounter by going this route?

That route sounds like Category A and seems straightforward. The gov website isn't too clear when it comes to the documents required but it seems apparently that the documents would be 6 months payslips, bank statements and a letter from the employer. 

 

As to hurdles, it would certainly pay off to either hire an immigration lawyer or read into the documents required a lot. For example, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-fm-se-family-members-specified-evidence says the letter from the employer HAS to contain certain things. I found a lot of information on https://migrate.org.uk/spouse-visa-uk-2018/ and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/chapter-8-appendix-fm-family-members, which seems to be a collection of official rules for spouse visas. It's all really long though...

[darren1971]

17 hours ago, bobrussell said:

I did not say we have a ghetto or integration problem. Some communities apparently do.

My family is very well integrated into British society as are all of their friends.

I am not presenting evidence because I don't have proof. I do believe the British/Thai population is not a problem but you cannot discriminate between one group and another.

Making a fuss about bits of law that do not suit is pointless. Get on with following the rules or enter politics to change them.

Like I said, there is no evidence the life in the UK test has any benefits and it should be dropped.

[7by7]

14 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

Like I said, there is no evidence the life in the UK test has any benefits and it should be dropped.

When I was at school I worked in a shop on a Saturday and I remember mothers who couldn't speak English coming in with their children to translate. Those acquaintances of mine who work in retail, including my wife, tell me that this still happens, but since the introduction of compulsory English tests for most categories of migrants is becoming more rare.

 

Before the introduction of these tests many local authorities and other public bodies spent small fortunes producing signage, information leaflets and similar in a variety of languages. This is also becoming more rare.  Indeed, despite living in a town with a large immigrant population from South Asia, the last time I saw official signage in English and another language was yesterday; in Wales!

 

The LitUK test not only tests the candidates knowledge of British history and culture, it also tests their ability to read English. Not write as the test is computer based; but if one can read a language, writing it follows easily.

 

I suggested to you before that, as your wife is finding home study for the test so difficult, you enrol her on a suitable course at your local adult education centre. If they don't offer such a course, there are many commercial organisations which do.

 

You said before that the introduction of the test was the government moving the goalposts for her. Which means she must have first come to the UK as your wife prior to November 2013, when the ESOL with citizenship course option was removed, or even before 2007 when the KoLL requirement was first introduced for ILR.

 

I have to wonder what has she been doing all this time if after at least 5 years in the UK her English is still so poor that she can't study for this simple test!

 

N.B. As I have already said, if she suffers from a disability which means such study is not possible for her, then she is exempt from taking it.

[rasg]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Before the introduction of these tests many local authorities and other public bodies spent small fortunes producing signage, information leaflets and similar in a variety of languages. This is also becoming more rare.  Indeed, despite living in a town with a large immigrant population from South Asia, the last time I saw official signage in English and another language was yesterday; in Wales!

And what a waste of money it is! DVLA's website is in English and Welsh. The small ships register is the same. All for a small number of people who speak Engish any way.

 

1 hour ago, darren1971 said:

Like I said, there is no evidence the life in the UK test has any benefits and it should be dropped.

I see you are still flogging a dead horse.

 

[bobrussell]

I am honoured that someone believes that because I don't have evidence (not looked for it) there is no evidence that it exists. Similarly honoured that the test should be dropped because I am unable to present evidence.

As I stated before just accept it is there , provide support and get on with study. If not then enter politics and try to change the rules.

My sister in law covered her house with post-it notes covering the information she needed. She sailed through first time.

Tens of thousands manage it every year and at least she knows who Winston Churchill was!

Edited May 18, 2018 by bobrussell

[darren1971]

3 hours ago, bobrussell said:

I am honoured that someone believes that because I don't have evidence (not looked for it) there is no evidence that it exists. Similarly honoured that the test should be dropped because I am unable to present evidence.

As I stated before just accept it is there , provide support and get on with study. If not then enter politics and try to change the rules.

My sister in law covered her house with post-it notes covering the information she needed. She sailed through first time.

Tens of thousands manage it every year and at least she knows who Winston Churchill was!

"The Life In The UK test has become a bad pub quiz. It has gone from testing practical trivia to the purely trivial and is a major opportunity lost.

"The biggest surprise is the lack of attention successive governments have paid to ensuring the test is fair and not out of date, a surprise even bigger than the sometimes shocking questions that can be found on the test."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22892444

 

and

 

If the citizenship test is meant to help migrants “integrate into society and play a full role in your local community”, there is little evidence to show it succeeds. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/01/british-citizenship-test-meghan-markle-brexit-reform

Edited May 18, 2018 by darren1971

[rasg]

If you spend as much effort in helping your girlfriend pass her LITUK test as you have in researching how bad and difficult it is, she will pass it first time.

 

The odd thing is you haven’t even applied for Settlement yet as far as I know so you she won't need to take the test for at least five years. In that time I bet it does change.

 

 

[bobrussell]

These citizenship tests are pretty widespread worldwide. I don't agree they are like a bad pub quiz and far more care has been put into them than many believe.

A lot of the questions are very straight forward, probably at least 50%. The next group do test the understanding of the language and are a bit more challenging but still straight forward with study. I suspect a small percentage are a little more tongue in cheek but still not obscure. How many people have not heard of The Beatles?

There is nothing wrong with expecting applicants to work and study for something as important as the right to reside permanently in a country.

It is a test that evolves!

[darren1971]

20 hours ago, rasg said:

If you spend as much effort in helping your girlfriend pass her LITUK test as you have in researching how bad and difficult it is, she will pass it first time.

 

The odd thing is you haven’t even applied for Settlement yet as far as I know so you she won't need to take the test for at least five years. In that time I bet it does change.

 

 

Hopefully it will change or though we have no plans on spending more than 5 years here anyway. I don't dislike the test for personal reasons, the financial requiremnt is fair enough, people need to support themselves. The proof of marriage, equally rational. Somewhere to live, again rational.... knowing when the first curry house was opened - hogwash. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by darren1971