Thai Immigration Cracks Down On Foreign Teachers

[teddy_bare]

I am really happy to see this. I meet so many people here under fake degrees and many admitt it to me like it is some kind of joke. Get those people out of here.

But maybe if they are good teacher without a degree (there are some) Maybe the system can work out that they keep said job while attending at a local uni here that offers English classes.

For me I have a degree in Family and Marriage consoling. With only a BA I can't do crap with it back in the US. I can do lots of low level paperwork jobs for child services etc or work phones some place. While I could obtain a Dr. in my field and with 10 years of experience have the potential to make 100k a year I don't wish to persue this line of work. SO I can get an MS in my field 3 years of experience and get 30k a year. Or get some entry level job at get 20-25k a year. I said I would rather try teaching before I commit to studying more or begin my climb of the ladder. So making 25k a month before tutoring etc is great, I found out I love it and I plan to get my TEFL. After living here for a few years I will return home with my soon to be wife (She has a BA in English and a Inter. TEFL MS degree and is bilingual) will return home and I will get a job at a university and brush up on my spanish. Then get a teaching cert if I want to do teaching in a non university setting. After the kids grow up I can return with a Masters and years of experience and get a comfy job at an international school.

Is that like Counceling?

You are typical of the Elitist snobs that exist in the world. Why not do someting you are qualified to do?

Secondly, you were teaching BEFORE you did the TEFL, which makes you even more unsuitable and criminal.

God help Thailand if you elitist left wing nutters ever get over here in number.

This is a comma by the way ,,,,,,, we put them in sentences, espescially long, meandering gibbering wrecks of sentence like yours. We also put full stops at the end..... Usually!

We don't ususally pull people up for crap English on here, but as yours is so dreadful, and you have set yourself up as better than most TEFL teachers here, thought I better redden a few of your worse remarks. Most of your sentences need totally re-writing BTW, I suggest you get an ape to proof read your next post. Your English here wouldn't get you a high school leaving certificate, believe me.

I love pedantic word Nazis like you who are more interested in tripping someone up, than trying to understand the meaning to the words. All communication is a way of conveying messages, thoughts, feelings and theories. The method and the correctness of the method is not important in this type of Forum. We are not at school or in a test environment. YOUR WORST MISTAKE WAS TO TRY TO CORRECT HIM and then to make a spelling mistake yourself. Your own stupidity and arrogance is starting to show. If you still have not worked out which word you got wrong then please reply and i will tell. Alternatively, you can do a sneaky edit. DO you understand?

[rogerinthai]

More like, stand yourself back up (from the bent over position), pack your bags and leave, smile optional... if you don't have a degree or can't find away to break the rules without getting caught.

Exactly, the point is that law-abiding people will leave, and the worst kind will stay (maybe by getting fake diplomas, or using any other way) - the misfits, the deperate without many choices, peadohiples, outlaws - exactly the undesirables they try to kick out. Those they want - well, they have many other better options :-)

[Heng]

Why doesn't the Thai government set up a testing (not training!) 'place' for anybody (foreigner) who applies for a teaching license in Thailand?

This 'place' should be staffed by top class foreign English language experts and pedagogues.

Every applicant, regardless of educational background, has to pass this test, which shouldn't take more than a month or two, in order to obtain a teaching license, WP, visa etc..

An excellent idea, with exception to the last part. This could be a good next step AFTER screening out the non-degree holders.

[Heng]

More like, stand yourself back up (from the bent over position), pack your bags and leave, smile optional... if you don't have a degree or can't find away to break the rules without getting caught.

Exactly, the point is that law-abiding people will leave, and the worst kind will stay (maybe by getting fake diplomas, or using any other way) - the misfits, the deperate without many choices, peadohiples, outlaws - exactly the undesirables they try to kick out.

Great, so there need by no sympathy for these folks when even harsher measures are introduced.

[gudy]

You mean COUNSELLING????

I've speak in the train for 14 hours with a student 20yo from a university in pattani...who was asking "sir can we speak english"...showed me the books, and say "can you explain I don't understand it at all" cliche language even I had difficulties with it....and more of all...the true level after 11 years study english for that studend stunning even don't know the abc to search a word in the dictionary always started from page 1.........so had to write down the abc on a paper to show her how to use the dictionary ......this was real hurting me to see... it shows how the teaching is here ((.............

I'm a simple tourist, have nothing to do with teaching self......

[wilko]

Ah - if only you knew. ALL teachers in the UK MUST have a degree in teaching - they either attend a teachers training college where they gain not only their degree but also vast experience in teaching technigues or must do a further 2 years doing a teachers degree once they have finished a normal degree at a university.

A host of UK teachers who have a teaching certificate and NO DEGREE will be laughing at you now.

[rogerinthai]

Great, so there need by no sympathy for these folks...

Correct, sympathy should instead go for the unfortunate Thai kids that will learn English from either these types, or even worse, from the incompetent Thai English teachers. Making it harder on foreigners to teach in Thailand will perpetuate the pathetic English level (except the few fortunates who have enough money to learn abroad). It's pretty safe to assume decisions are taken by those who can afford sending their kids to expensive private schools or to study abroad, not by those who cannot.

...when even harsher measures are introduced.

Correct again - for example, similar restrictions on half-Thais, or Thais with Chinese origins.

EDIT: spelling mistakes! LOL

Edited January 31, 2007 by rogerinthai

[Ijustwannateach]

Amazing how these types of thread bring out a curiously high number of cranky low post-count members who all have spelling issues, in and of themselves and with each other... we don't seem most of them in the Teacher's Forum usually... gosh, where could they have come from?

Oops?

Q.E.D.

[Petesear]

Why hasn't anybody pointed out that having a degree should only be necessary to non-speaking English countries, and that degree be in English. I would like to think that native English speakers should competent enough to pass on English words to children. It should be the job of the schools to decide who they don't want for what ever reason.

[Pi Sua]

Testimony of a Non-Qualified Teacher...

Hi,

Althought I'm not a qualified teacher, I don't have any degree and I'm not even a native speaker; I however have been teaching in Thailand for about 9 years.

Of course, my spelling is not perfect and my grammar isn't either but to improve myself, I'm always listening to English/American/Australian programmes on TV, reading and even still studying with some good grammar books. I do as well with the Thai language and I can now explain quite some about English grammar rules in Thai.

I do think that a degree is not necessary but as Opalhort has just said, a test, maybe like an examination entrance would be more effective.

I'm thinking that way because I've always had excellent results with my students (except for some of them).

There is also the fact that they often complain about the native English teachers they used to have or still have at school because they said that they can't understand anything as they just speak too fast and do not show any particular interests in developping communication skills. Also, all of them (the ones who come here) are not able to explain one single rule in Thai even I suppose they probably have a degree and maybe are qualified teachers.

Personally, as I had to learn English grammar better than I did when I was at school in my country, I've got a fresh knowledge on that and probably on some points a better one than in my own language. Not being a native English speaker might show me that teaching English is not only to speak it perfectly but also to be able to get througt a comprehension problem and resolve it. It's of course, in Thailand, to understand the Asian's sentitivities and the culture to try to provide them a good translation on what you're teaching, especially for the youngest.

Teaching English is also to make our students understand the way we are living and thinking for them to use it and construct their sentences correctly.

On rare occasions, I lost students (private tuitions) because their parents were not satisfied as I taught a different way of writing to their children as they couldn't write our alphabet properly. They said to me that it was not like that the way they were taught at school. Some parents wanted me to teach about conversation, so I did but they wanted sentences like "Would you like to drink something"... "Where are you from"... Of course they were right but their "kids" were already studying at the prestigious Chulalomkorn University... and knew about that for long... So it was a waste of time as we could have serious conversation about many different subjects and really improve their skills.

Whatever, many parents are really satisfied with the way I'm teaching. It happens that I'm teaching to adults but with some subject as "business", I can't and I don't do as I can't at all in my own language

Now, there is another problem the Thai authorities should look at; it's the programme at the primary schools. I think it has to be reconsidered.

I can't complain for the money I earn as I'm living in the countryside where not so much is enough to get a real decent living except for the paiement of a plane ticket. It's a choice I made.

About the post everybody's laughing at, I think it's a joke and not specially a funny one. I might be wrong but it's too big.

Whatever someone's views on the matter I keep on thinking that a degree is aboslutely not necessary but I don't agree with the fake ones. It does us (the non-graduated) a desservice.

[Trev]

Why hasn't anybody pointed out that having a degree should only be necessary to non-speaking English countries, and that degree be in English. I would like to think that native English speakers should competent enough to pass on English words to children. It should be the job of the schools to decide who they don't want for what ever reason.

Sorry, I strongly disagree with this... especially in that many native English speakers are not that good at English and teaching English is more than 'passing on words'.

[mitrapaap]

Geting rid off teachrs is tipical, first expatts now us teeachrs we does a good job for this contry, who can tell them how to speech properly now, its bad enohugh gettin a order right in K.fC as it is, up to them, you can get digrees on the internet now anyway,so thay can't check evryone,can thay?

Interesting. Your first sentence contains "now us teeachers"... So I guess you are one of those teachers and as you further say "we does a good job for this country". I can't say whether you are just not good in typing or whether it's really your English that is as bad as you type it. But I, not being teacher and not being native English, can say that your short statement is full of english-mistakes - I'm afraid you're on the list for deportation and I'm afraid you're on the list for good reason.

[Ijustwannateach]

*I* think that Tony (Trolly) Thailand is having a right good laugh by now.

Btw, if anyone ever asks why we don't allow the degree-no degree discussion in the Teacher's forum, I'm just going to link right here to this thread and say, THAT's why. And I will, too.

"Steven"

[teddy_bare]

Maybe the long term plan by the government is to replace native English speaking teachers with the untapped and soon to be unemployed Guest Relations Officers. You know the ones who have dedicated their bodies and souls to entertaining the other farang visitors to the LOS. This solves a few problems in one and will add valuable and much needed vocabolary to the studious thai students. Instead of the "Hello" and "Welcome" level the new teachers could add the "Magic BIG Four", Commonly known as the 4 principles of attraction. sayings like "Where you come from?", "How old are you?", "You like me?" and the closer "I take you home tonight, ok?"

To be honest if i was a young student i would much perfer and respect a fellow local who has thru years of hard work and dedication mastered the English Language. A true success story of poorly educated girls who had climbed up the ladder of success to become ambassors and the teachers of the great nation. The existing Thai teachers would welcome the intregration of this mix of different levels and backgrounds combined with the pride of working with fellow nationals. Equal wages and status and the refreshing oral ability of these enthusiastic individuals would all contribute to the harmony and enichment of the educational environment.

Just my thoughts

Edited January 31, 2007 by teddy_bare

[Petesear]

Why hasn't anybody pointed out that having a degree should only be necessary to non-speaking English countries, and that degree be in English. I would like to think that native English speakers should competent enough to pass on English words to children. It should be the job of the schools to decide who they don't want for what ever reason.

Sorry, I strongly disagree with this... especially in that many native English speakers are not that good at English and teaching English is more than 'passing on words'.

In what way do you disagree?

Is it the Queen's English that you expect all Native English speakers to speak?

Or only the Home Counties?

My 3 yr old speaks English and all I have ever done is speak to her, never taught her, and she is here in Bangkok.

[Trev]

Why hasn't anybody pointed out that having a degree should only be necessary to non-speaking English countries, and that degree be in English. I would like to think that native English speakers should competent enough to pass on English words to children. It should be the job of the schools to decide who they don't want for what ever reason.

Sorry, I strongly disagree with this... especially in that many native English speakers are not that good at English and teaching English is more than 'passing on words'.

In what way do you disagree?

Is it the Queen's English that you expect all Native English speakers to speak?

Or only the Home Counties?

My 3 yr old speaks English and all I have ever done is speak to her, never taught her, and she is here in Bangkok.

I'm not British so expecting the Queen's English to be what all native English speakers speak is not an issue. In fact, just because someone comes from Britain, the home of the Queen's English, doesn't give them a strangle hold on speaking the language well, let alone understanding it in a structured way.

I was in no way implying that you personally are not that good at English, I would have no way of knowing that and can only presume that you are indeed good at the language. My point is that there are a lot of people who are not good at English even though they are native English speakers and for some reason some of these people feel that it is their God given right to have the opportunity to teach the language just because they are native speakers.

Finally, there is a huge difference between a child learning English from day one as compared to a teenager learning it as a second language. It is in the latter situation where passing on English words is simply not enough.

[Jimjim]

"FOREIGN TEACHERS" CREDENTIALS TO BE CHECKED

To obtain a work permit to work legally in Thailand for a year, one of the requirements is to have a university degree, which needless to say, few foreign aspirant teachers have.

Few foreign aspirant teachers have degrees? With what scientific study did the author determine this apparent fact? The article itself was poorly written and used too many assumptions with no proof to back them up.

By the way, not having a degree and being a pedophile are not the same thing. When I got my degree, they didn't check to see if I was a pedophile or not. Many potential pedophiles probably don't have a record. But hey, that's an assumption.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Jeez Louise!

Is Thai Visa holding The Pedantic Bastard World Championship?

Good luck with these kids IJWT!

[aqua4]

This is just another excuse for kicking out as many foreigners as possible, with the old story of wanting "Quality farangs".

Quality Tourists are measured by the amount of money they spend per day (ignoring the fact that backbackers and travellers stay for much longer periods, and end up spend just as much).

Quality Investors - those who invest millions of dollars in advance (making life very hard for the small investors, that still bring in a significant amount of capital and do create many jobs).

Now Quality Teachers, well, they don't have a good way to really measure that quality, so they bring up the degrees requirement, as irrelevant as it may be. Then, mentioning pedophiles to create negative emotions, hatred towards foreigners, that's just typical demagogic manipulation. Just like that article in BKK Post that compared foreign investors who are not interested to invest by the new rules, to a tourist that refuses to take off his shoes in the Emerald Buddha Temple. Trying to play on cultural and religious sensitivities to justify the stupid rules.

The message is clear: Foreigners Out!

(and for anyone who wonders - no, I am not a native English speaker, and no, I am not a teaching anyone English. My Thai girlfriend studies English in a Thai School, from Thai teachers, and very often I find redicilous mistakes in the books she is given).

Well said. I think you must be the only one who has posted in this thread that can see the broader picture. It has little to do with teaching. The last 2-3 months have seen huge changes, most if not all of those changes have been with a tag - Go Home!

Now you guys can go on about what you need and what you don't.

[Petesear]

Trev, I hear what you are saying but English speakers are at an advantage.

As far as a baby learning to speak compared to a teenager, maybe the unqualified should only be teaching, or aiding, the young ones.

[mitrapaap]

Why hasn't anybody pointed out that having a degree should only be necessary to non-speaking English countries, and that degree be in English. I would like to think that native English speakers should competent enough to pass on English words to children. It should be the job of the schools to decide who they don't want for what ever reason.

Sorry, I strongly disagree with this... especially in that many native English speakers are not that good at English and teaching English is more than 'passing on words'.

In what way do you disagree?

Is it the Queen's English that you expect all Native English speakers to speak?

Or only the Home Counties?

My 3 yr old speaks English and all I have ever done is speak to her, never taught her, and she is here in Bangkok.

I'm not British so expecting the Queen's English to be what all native English speakers speak is not an issue. In fact, just because someone comes from Britain, the home of the Queen's English, doesn't give them a strangle hold on speaking the language well, let alone understanding it in a structured way.

I was in no way implying that you personally are not that good at English, I would have no way of knowing that and can only presume that you are indeed good at the language. My point is that there are a lot of people who are not good at English even though they are native English speakers and for some reason some of these people feel that it is their God given right to have the opportunity to teach the language just because they are native speakers.

Finally, there is a huge difference between a child learning English from day one as compared to a teenager learning it as a second language. It is in the latter situation where passing on English words is simply not enough.

Couldn't agree more with you. I have learnt 4 languages in addition to my mother tongue and I learnt all of them by people who were not only native speakers of that specific language but also were teachers. Teaching is a profession. If passing words would do it, then why English kids would have English lessons, why would German kids have so much pain learning their language at school? Children learn how to speak from their parents. They learn that over 6 years, then the language learning gets speeded up by teachers at school. Thai students don't have that much time. They want to learn fast, and that needs teaching - by teachers.

[BlackArtemis]

Nah its ok for him to rip into my spelling. It is pretty bad, but then again I never monitor myself when I am posting on a forum. But please take note of the time; I should have been at work during that time. But I came back home early do to health reasons and the meds are making me a bit loopy.

Now that I had a little nap I have no problem responding to the post. First I am not the best speller in the world, nor is grammar the passion of my life. But I take time to prepare lessons plans ahead of time and even jot down some words that might just get spelled wrong. I do this so that my students get the right information and spell it correctly themselves. But hey again I am not perfect and I reward my students if they correct me.

As for me teaching PRIOR to a TEFL cert, this is incorrect, I simply made another spelling mistake. Payap originally had a MA in TEFL now it is TESOL. I simply failed to write “MA in”.

I am getting a MA in TESOL to improve my own ability.

And leftwing is a pretty funny word to describe me.

I still feel that teachers should be required to have a degree and if they lied kick them out. I may have given a poor representation of myself to you and others here, but all my paper work is 100%. My school is happy with me, along with students and parents.

Please take your time to correct this post too. I better things to do than make sure my posts are up to the rigorous standards of the internet.

And thanks Teddy, I didn’t even bother re-reading my own post, simply because I felt it was so boring most people wouldn’t even read it let alone care that I basically slapped the keys like a monkey and pressed “submit”.

[Ijustwannateach]

Dan Sai- I'm not responsible! News thread! News thread! Just kidding; I'm forcing myself to read it all.

If I wanted to be very selfish, I would say HURRAH! to these new rules. Most of what I've heard won't affect me in any negative way. I'll still have my job, and there will be far fewer less-qualified foreigners around to compete- driving up wages, and making my life (probably) better. The biggest risk I can see is if they screw the regulations up so much that it makes it impossible for virtually any foreigner to teach here legally- it could happen- and then we're all screwed.

However, a lot of the folks affected by these recent regulations are decent and qualified enough for what they do, and it's a shame if the rules that let them get in and get settled are changed to the point where they can't legally remain anymore, often with families and so forth. And Thailand *needs* cheap foreign English speakers- i.e. TEFL teachers- needs 'em so badly that I, too, agree they don't need to be demanding any degrees from 'em.

So even though it's probably personally beneficial, I think the baby's going out with the bathwater.

"Steven"

[Petesear]

Are we talking about speaking or grammar? My 3 yr old, as do many other, speaks as good as if not better than many 15 yr olds do here, yet she can't write. We study later in life to write a language that we can already speak.

[uk_falang]

Many bar girls speak excellent English - and many more speak enough to easily communicate and get by. Most of these girls have had little formal education, and have picked up their English from their clients and other bar girl who in turn probably dont have teaching qualifications.

You can learn English just from being around English teaching people - even if grammar is incorrect they still get the vocabulary. It sounds snobbish to insist on perfect grammar, univeristy degrees. Another point is what jobs are most Thai students aiming for? If I degree graduate gets 8,000 a month and you can get 20,000 a month selling noodles or working in the tourist / entertainment / bar industry then why bother?

It seems strange to pay an uneducated sex tourist teacher 30,000 a month which he spends on sex. Why not provide on the job training and employ the "working class" Thais to do the job.

Also, I think the poster who suggested better incentives for foreign teacher such as possible honarary degree or suchlike for teaching on a low salary in Thailand etc may have a good point.

The truth is you wont get many high quality foriegn teachers for 30,000 a month. I would say that most bar girls speak better English than Thai English teachers.

Just a few thoughts

[Trev]

Trev, I hear what you are saying but English speakers are at an advantage.

As far as a baby learning to speak compared to a teenager, maybe the unqualified should only be teaching, or aiding, the young ones.

Sure, and as I've stated previously the degree thing is a means of increasing the odds.

As far as the baby vs teenager goes, I would suspect that the difference pops up much sooner than in the teens. Once a first language is in place the structure of the second language starts to become quite important.

[Ijustwannateach]

Just to let you guys know, I'm going to crank up the moderation here a notch or so. No mentions of bargirls, please, or sex tourism. It's off-topic.

[paulsmithson]

I am native English speaker and used to live in Thailand many years ago. I never worked there teaching and had a good command of spoken Thai.

When I returned to the Uk with my Thai wife I enrolled her in English classes here, that was not a success as the standard of the teaching here was RUBBISH!

I then taught her to speak,read and write English to such a degree that she went on to obtain a Masters degree here in the UK.

I had a friend who was native English who was going to move to Thailand to teach English and had taken a TELF in Thailand.

He did not even know how to introduce him self using the Thai language!

When I asked how he would ask a student their name he said he would throw a doll to them and say "Jimmy".

He would repeat this action until they eventually guessed that his name was Jimmy!!

I was apalled!

This guy did as he intended and to this day has work in Thailand as an English teacher.

Whilst I think that a degree is not a necessary qualification for a teacher of languages surely the ability to communicate effectively in the language of the student is a major advantage, even more so at primary school level where the students command of English will be at best limited.

As an outsider here I defintely agree with some of Pi Sua's points here and do think that a voluntary regulatory body of English teachers coulld be the way forward. Having a degree does not , to me, denote any level of intelligence nor commitment. I know so many people here in the UK who hold degrees in trivial subjects and whose communication skills in their native language are sadly lacking

[blam]

This is not my usual style, but I have completely had it with the moronic Thai mentality of late.

This may get me banned but, listen, I'm tired of it:

I was married to a Thai matayom teacher for 15 years in Chiang Mai. She taught at a prestigious school, had a Master's Degree in education, and lo and behold, she was an English teacher (of all things.)

Simply stated: Thai teachers, Thai teaching methods, and Thai schools in general... are a joke.

Thai graduates with a Bachelor's Degree in Electronics Engineering can just barely get a job as a waiter anywhere else in the world. The teaching system, the grading system, indeed the overlooked failure of the entire system in Thailand, is nothing short of horrific.

Now think of the Thai teachers, who are they? What are their motives? Why do they allow this complete stupidity to continue on and on? Answer: There is no baseline education standard for anyone in this country, period.

Therefore, if there is no real world standardization for Thai teachers: How in the world can the Thai 'powers that be' make such high minded, error ridden decisions, when, in general, any person from a western country can do better at teaching than the Thais do? (You can apply this just about anything else as well) I will say it clearly here, a high school education in the west is superior to a Bachelor's Degree in Thailand. Yes that is a blanket statement but sadly it is true.

With my experience with the education system here, I am not surprised at the latest news. In the not too distant past, the Thai teaching system was based on boys (only) chanting in the Wat everyday. Simple rote memorization of key values, no thought development whatsoever. The only ways to get ahead in life were to marry up, get hired by a rich uncle, or to do a back ended Sri Tononchai. There never has been a real education system in this country whatsoever.

Time to think Malaysia, Vietnam, China, and Singapore, they all now have systems in place for teaching their inquiring students how to succeed in the REAL world. Thailand, unfortunately is aligning itself with Burma, Kampuchea, and Laos in the magic belief of "nepotism as perfection" system. Why change now?

Let the Thais fall down and learn how to crawl again, at this point in time it is clearly and truly the only way left to them. However, I do feel a great disservice is being done to the farang teachers struggling their way along here in Thailand.

OK yes, I really am tired of hearing it...

Farangs: if you have experience, real feet on the ground experience with the Thai education system, then speak up. All of you with no idea what you are talking about... shut the h#ll up and mind your own crappy business. I am tired of hearing your half baked totally blind BS.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but in general, those without a direct long term relationship with the Thai education system have no idea what they are talking about. In other words, they are wrong, and have nothing but ignorance from which to speak.

Old and in the way in Phuket.

[Jonson83]

Actually paulsmithson,if your trying to teach someone a new language your not supposed to use their own native language to communicate with them.

My old man pointed this out to me.I am sure many of the teachers here aren't supposed to speak any Thai to the kids,or so i have heard anyway...?