Need advice to clarify purchase.

[tacoofthehillpeople]

I am in the US currently. And like many I happen to like SEA. Unlike most of the world. In the US ownership matters to people. And I need some actual advice to proceed with a purchase. To narrow my queries as it were.

 

Background, no interest in setting up a business. I have one in the US. Why would I move to another country to do the same thing for less money. So no I do not want to set up a company to own property. Even though corporation terms are favorable to Americans. No desire to bother with that. 

 

 

No interest in leases, 30 year usufructs, or a condominium. I do not want to hear my neighbors. I would never build or buy a home if I or my seed did not own outright the property. As one can own the home but not the property in Thailand. Which is stupid, My personal opinion.

 

Thai law is a quagmire. I have contacted real estate agents and get differing opinions let's call them. I do not read Thai. And I have tried to use several translation programs. And friends from Thailand laugh about the translation a lot. I have tried getting the laws in Thai translated to English. And while I have a general basis. I am not versed in knowing if I am missing something. So to actually engage a real estate lawyer is the next step. But I hear horror stories here as you all have. And the few Thais I ask here  say all are crooks. But I want specifics to be able to ask. As I want my contract to specify what I am paying the lawyer to do. So I need to know what I can do to protect myself.

 

 

So does anyone know about the 1/4 rai, 400 sq meter property exception? Apparently non citizens of Thailand can own physical property outside of a corporate entity. Limited to a single 1/4 rai. While 400 sq meters is not huge. It is a decent size lot. Easily put a 300 sq meter home on it. Thaivisa even has properties in that range listed for sale. Does anyone know if it has been done? Thaivisa mostly covers people building on anothers(wife, gf, or childs) property. Or buy a condominium. Anyone ever look into it?

 

 

I know I can do Palawan. And the Sulu Sea is nice. But amenities can be lacking. Cambodians that I know here. Would move to Thailand but not back to Cambodia. The Cambodians I know there, want to come here. I have friends in Vietnam, they are there for work. While they like it. Only one plans on staying as he is marrying a local girl. Laos, I do not know anyone in Laos. All the Laotions I know left to come to the US. And they go back to visit family. And hightail it back to the US. Thailand I have been to the most of the ones in SEA. And it has 1st world amenities. Pattaya gets a bad rap. But it is also a world class business hub. And several cities have the same. So Thailand makes sense. As long as I can own. That is a deal breaker.

 

Any honest information? 

 

 

 

[Nick ZepTepi]

You cannot own 100% outright any property or business in Thailand.




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[Nick ZepTepi]

You probably have more rights as an illegal Mexican in the USA, than a legal expat in Thailand. ???[emoji23]

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[tacoofthehillpeople]

44 minutes ago, Nick ZepTepi said:

You cannot own 100% outright any property or business in Thailand.




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Thank you for the reply. I am taking it you have zero experience with this subject. 

[Nick ZepTepi]

Would you prefer incoherent rambling in reply to your incoherent question?

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[tacoofthehillpeople]

8 minutes ago, Nick ZepTepi said:

Would you prefer incoherent rambling in reply to your incoherent question?

Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk
 

Again thank you for your reply. But as you had even zero constructive criticism to offer. The logical conclusion is you had to offer exactly what you did, Zero. So I politely thanked you. And acknowledged your contribution. For exactly what is was. 

 

The reason I posted here. Knowing that trolls like yourself abound. Is that numerous posters have ACTUAL experience that can be drawn upon. Whether it is knowledge of the specifics or can vouch for some firm they know. It is called due diligence. Word of mouth and networking are literally still the best ways to do business. As you do not seem to understand that. I am guessing you do as most. And I get most do the bare minimum to exist in Thailand. And would not bother to investigate actually owning property. But that does not mean all are that way. And as your assertion does not seem to jib with what the Kingdom of Thailand says about the subject. As even on Thaivisa there is commentary on what I asked. I can only conclude that my original reply to you was the correct one. Have a nice day.

[moontang]

Prime land can run well over 20 million USD per acre, so condo living is more practical than you give it credit.  Company setup is an option, but for just one property, it will be costly to operate, and you will still be in a grey area.  Real estate in the US is rock solid, but you can lose it for not paying the often excessive property taxes on it.  An old BY paid 170,000 in 1987 and her taxes are close to 5000 per year, but....if she sells for the 1.1 million it is now worth, the new owner will pay 17,000 per year.

[ubonjoe]

The only time I am aware of when foreigner can own land is if they invest 40 million baht is this amendment to the Land Code.

 

 

Source: http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0135.pdf

[happylarry]

I have gone the company route for my first house when I moved to Thailand fifteen years ago, I could not wait to get rid of the company and luckily I managed to find a buyer to simply transfer the company with the house.

Now my current house is in my wife’s name, (we have been happily together for all of the fifteen years, before the negative comments come flying.....lol)

Anyway I have never heard of this system you mention, all I have ever heard in the fifteen years that I have been active in the property market is “farang cannot own land”......period.

So if you think you have found a loophole then I wish you luck, but I seriously doubt it being so. 

You speak about having translation problems so I will send you my wife’s business card, she is an interpreter and translator in the legal profession, so although you will obviously have to pay fee’s at least you then have an option if you found you needed an interpreter in the future.

HL

[tacoofthehillpeople]

1 minute ago, moontang said:

Prime land can run well over 20 million USD per acre, so condo living is more practical than you give it credit.  Company setup is an option, but for just one property, it will be costly to operate, and you will still be in a grey area.  Real estate in the US is rock solid, but you can lose it for not paying the often excessive property taxes on it.  An old BY paid 170,000 in 1987 and her taxes are close to 5000 per year, but....if she sells for the 1.1 million it is now worth, the new owner will pay 17,000 per year.

But I have seen little in Thailand going for 20 million USD an acre. And am assuredly not looking in that price range in Thailand. I am looking in the 20 million baht range. Say plus or minus 5. Which is less than than my home here.

 

And I agree with US real estate. I own rental properties. I am a fan of owning. Hence my request here for information. I want to own. I require it as a condition to live anywhere.

 

My first home away from my parents was a condominium. Many of the amenities I would not be using e.g. the gym. And the ones I would want to use. I would not, e.g. a communal pool. Add in HOA fees. Not a fan. Though I do see the attraction  for many. There is not the upside to offset it for me. I like a garden. Grow my own tomatoes. I like greenery. Walk in my own grass. If I am going to swim. I do not want to in my neighbors kids urine. 

 

So thank you. Your reply was courteous. 

[tacoofthehillpeople]

7 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The only time I am aware of when foreigner can own land is if they invest 40 million baht is this amendment to the Land Code.

 

 

Source: http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0135.pdf

So just over 1.2 in dollars. Thank you for the link.

[moontang]

Fourteen years ago, I said the same...houses seemed like a much better buy.....I did the lease with a good attorney...still a very grey area, with few property rights...And the neighbors can use it as blackmail.

 

A friend from the US, built 13 houses on land South of H Hin, 100 wah  and 170 meters of space with a lap pool.  Just sold one for 8 million....rent was about 37000.  But he told me, that he would have made more money keeping the parcel in tact, and not building.  Now surrounded by a wall of condos, that he says changed the microclimate.  And zero views.  700 meters to the beach...fifteen minutes tues to town.  Like in the US, people that have to have new, SFH, often end up in terrible locations.  BTW, Thai kids can't swim, and their mommies don't want them to turn dark..so it is a far cry from US condo pools.

[tacoofthehillpeople]

3 minutes ago, happylarry said:

I have gone the company route for my first house when I moved to Thailand fifteen years ago, I could not wait to get rid of the company and luckily I managed to find a buyer to simply transfer the company with the house.

Now my current house is in my wife’s name, (we have been happily together for all of the fifteen years, before the negative comments come flying.....lol)

Anyway I have never heard of this system you mention, all I have ever heard in the fifteen years that I have been active in the property market is “farang cannot own land”......period.

So if you think you have found a loophole then I wish you luck, but I seriously doubt it being so. 

You speak about having translation problems so I will send you my wife’s business card, she is an interpreter and translator in the legal profession, so although you will obviously have to pay fee’s at least you then have an option if you found you needed an interpreter in the future.

HL

Which is why I am asking. I am not so lucky to have a lovely Thai wife. Congratulations  on the 15. Many happy returns to you. So I would be the purchaser.

 

The whole set up a company. I share your aversion. I would not in this day and age set my company up again. The EPA literally is the most anti business entity on the planet I think. 

 

Google is lacking. Apparently is an archaic law. But as far as I can tell still on the books. But whether it flys in practical use is the problem. As how one satisfies Visa requirements varies at each office it seems. I can not envision this would be less difficult. Which is why I was hoping for some practical knowledge on it. And I would rather jump through hoops owning property if I have to jump through hoops anyway.

 

Thank you for your reply. 

 

 

[moontang]

If you are over 50, visa is a lot easier than running a company, whose only business is owning a house, but setting up a company for a foreigner to buy property is illegal, as well as giving money to a Thai to do it for you.  Even in the worst Immigration offices, like Chiang Mai, DIY retirement extensions are totally doable.

[tacoofthehillpeople]

4 minutes ago, moontang said:

Fourteen years ago, I said the same...houses seemed like a much better buy.....I did the lease with a good attorney...still a very grey area, with few property rights...And the neighbors can use it as blackmail.

 

A friend from the US, built 13 houses on land South of H Hin, 100 wah  and 170 meters of space with a lap pool.  Just sold one for 8 million....rent was about 37000.  But he told me, that he would have made more money keeping the parcel in tact, and not building.  Now surrounded by a wall of condos, that he says changed the microclimate.  And zero views.  700 meters to the beach...fifteen minutes tues to town.  Like in the US, people that have to have new, SFH, often end up in terrible locations.  BTW, Thai kids can't swim, and their mommies don't want them to turn dark..so it is a far cry from US condo pools.

Lease is an issue. I am not that old. My life expectancy remains higher than 30 years. Plus the notion of not owning is galling.

 

Still would not want a condo. I live in what is known as horse country. My front yard is measured in acres. While I can live with much smaller. The yard and private pool are also requirements. And easily doable in the price range I am looking. I have measured off 400 sq meters. I can live with that. 

 

Sounds as bad as the Philippines.  They live on islands and cannot swim. As much as it floods it should be a requirement in Thailand. 

 

 

Thank you for your courteous reply.

[moontang]

that is less than a tenth of an acre...about what you get with a new no e in Vegas .  BUT...the 40 million does not include the house purchase, and your 40 million investment cannot be in a company setup to acquire real estate.

 

Agreed, swimming should be mandatory...

[tacoofthehillpeople]

15 minutes ago, moontang said:

If you are over 50, visa is a lot easier than running a company, whose only business is owning a house, but setting up a company for a foreigner to buy property is illegal, as well as giving money to a Thai to do it for you.  Even in the worst Immigration offices, like Chiang Mai, DIY retirement extensions are totally doable.

I have a dozen years to 50. So retirement Visa is out. And while my trips so far have never required a Visa run. Longest I stayed to date was a month. I want it as a base. As I want to explore all of SEA. I do want to hit up the rest of Asia too. 

 

I have zero intention of waiting until retirement age to retire. I intend to be young enough to enjoy it. I have worked 80 hours a week to get where I can do this.

 

Thanks for the follow up.

 

 

[tacoofthehillpeople]

10 minutes ago, moontang said:

that is less than a tenth of an acre...about what you get with a new no e in Vegas .  BUT...the 40 million does not include the house purchase, and your 40 million investment cannot be in a company setup to acquire real estate.

 

Agreed, swimming should be mandatory...

Well what I do here, I do not know enough to do there. Rental properties I like. But the ownership is again a sticking point. Thaivisa keeps showing a 6% ROI property for 8.6 million Baht. So while the 1.2 is doable. We have that big, BUT. As again the horrors abound on Thaivisa. Partners ripping you off , malfeasance, etcetera. And frankly I do not want to own a company. I already do. I want to divest myself of it. And I have no partners now. Though I know people here I trust. There where I know people only socially. Who would I trust? Hence buy a small plot. No company to worry over. 

 

And my first stand alone home. 1054 sq feet. Tiny little plot. You could stretch your arms and touch 2 houses. I have a paddock that measures about 450 sq meters. I roped off 50 meters of it. The remainder I could live on. Yesterday's or maybe Thursday's listings on Thaivisa showed a 434 sq meter plot with a 302 sq meter home. Knock 34 meter easement off it and it is perfect. It is not a small home. And it has green space. Sadly no pool. So I have investigated what those size limitations would be. I do not keep horses anymore. So I do not need a place this big. And while a thousand sq feet is way too small. 250 sq meters or even 300 is more than enough. 

[KittenKong]

Use your money to buy property in a country in which you can legally own it (and ideally in which you have right of abode).

 

Rent it out.

 

Take the income from that and rent somewhere in Thailand to live in.

 

For the visa: join Thai Elite until you are 50, at which point you can get a cheap retirement extension regardless of whether you are retired or not, and regardless of whether you mostly live here or not. The Thai Elite visa allows you to come and go as you wish for at least 5 years, with minimal paperwork requirements. Various price points are available but even the cheapest is quite expensive.

https://www.thailandelite.com/?locate=en

 

[tacoofthehillpeople]

6 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Use your money to buy property in a country in which you can legally own it (and ideally in which you have right of abode).

 

Rent it out.

 

Take the income from that and rent somewhere in Thailand to live in.

 

For the visa: join Thai Elite until you are 50, at which point you can get a cheap retirement extension regardless of whether you are retired or not, and regardless of whether you mostly live here or not. The Thai Elite visa allows you to come and go as you wish for at least 5 years, with minimal paperwork requirements. Various price points are available but even the cheapest is quite expensive.

https://www.thailandelite.com/?locate=en

 

The income is not the issue. I have both a business and rental properties in the US. The renting is my issue. I was raised it is throwing money away. As you are enriching another. Do not get the tax benefits, the actual owner does. Even though you are paying all those taxes. And even in Thailand rent goes up. Means paying more and still getting the same thing. 

 

 

And I like walking in my yard. To my garden. Or too swim in my pool. Renting I cannot alter any of those. 

 

I have looked at the Elite Visa. I like it actually. I am more than willing to pay for convenience. But unless I can see a reasonable way. I could base myself elsewhere. The Phillipines is close. And cheaper. And just vacation in Thailand. So would not need anything save a tourist visa. But as sadly while ph has lovely ladies too. Thailand has other attractions. I like ruins. First reason I ever visited SEA. Seeing Angkor Wat in movies. Watching the various Rama the Fouth movies. So I would prefer it. 

 

Thank you for the reply.

 

 

[moontang]

Malaysia has some interesting purchase rules for someone, who wants to spend more, visa too.  Sorry, but I don't even like to hear PH mentioned in the same breath as Thailand...there is extreme poverty there, led by the baby making Catholic Church.  The Filipinos aren't short due to genetic reasons, but yes, good beer, cheap, some good ladies...

Edited July 7, 2018 by moontang

[Delight]

 Your question in relation to  Thailand property is 'Can I own?'

 

The  simple answer to that simple question is

YES

 

However -only a condo -nothing else.

Nothing else to say.

 

You may also be interested to know-just thinking of the long term future- that it is far from straight forward to bequeth  a condo-the one that you own

 

Suspect that SEA is not for you!

Edited July 7, 2018 by Delight

[KittenKong]

5 hours ago, tacoofthehillpeople said:

The income is not the issue. I have both a business and rental properties in the US. The renting is my issue. I was raised it is throwing money away. As you are enriching another. Do not get the tax benefits, the actual owner does. Even though you are paying all those taxes. And even in Thailand rent goes up. Means paying more and still getting the same thing. 

Up to you. You cannot own a house and land so I pointed out an alternative. Another alternative is a condo, which you can own outright here. That doesnt suit you either. So you seem to be out of options.

 

There are no tax benefits to property ownership in Thailand.

 

And rent is surprisingly stable here, except when it actually falls. I know many condos that are available this year for much less than they cost a few years ago. I also know many people who have been renting for years and have never been asked to pay more.

 

5 hours ago, tacoofthehillpeople said:

But unless I can see a reasonable way. I could base myself elsewhere. The Phillipines is close. And cheaper. And just vacation in Thailand.

The RP has taxation on worldwide income. That may cost you. It would cost me a lot. I'm not aware that the bottom line of living in the RP is significantly lower than the bottom line of living here, though it would depend greatly on how you live and the sort of things you buy. Certainly if you are an alcoholic who eats only imported food you would probably be better off there.

 

[tacoofthehillpeople]

4 hours ago, moontang said:

Malaysia has some interesting purchase rules for someone, who wants to spend more, visa too.  Sorry, but I don't even like to hear PH mentioned in the same breath as Thailand...there is extreme poverty there, led by the baby making Catholic Church.  The Filipinos aren't short due to genetic reasons, but yes, good beer, cheap, some good ladies...

Thanks, as I said I would prefer Thailand. Ph is close. The entire country speaks English. Cheaper property. Condensed Nast list Palawan as having some of the most Beautiful beaches in the world. And Asians seem to flock to Boracay. But as I mentioned the lack of amenities is an issue. I was hoping SEA. Maylay I shall give due diligence too.

 

But thank you for the informative replies.

[tacoofthehillpeople]

8 minutes ago, Delight said:

 Your question in relation to  Thailand property is 'Can I own?'

 

The  simple answer to that simple question is

YES

 

However -only a condo -nothing else.

Nothing else to say.

 

You may also be interested to know-just thinking of the long term future- that it is far from straight forward to bequeth  a condo.

 

Suspect that SEA is not for you!

Thank you for your reply. While not entirely helpful, you were courteous. 

 

Your contention seems inaccurate. As another posted a link that proves it a possibility. 

 

It may end up not being for me. But as I happen to like it there. I am willing to search out possibilities. One cannot know a thing unless one learns it.

 

Please have a nice day, or night depending on where you may be located. 

 

 

[moontang]

Taco, where in the US are you?  Some of us will be able to relate better.  Can buy a 640 acre near Lovelock for 70K...

[tacoofthehillpeople]

56 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Up to you. You cannot own a house and land so I pointed out an alternative. Another alternative is a condo, which you can own outright here. That doesnt suit you either. So you seem to be out of options.

 

There are no tax benefits to property ownership in Thailand.

 

And rent is surprisingly stable here, except when it actually falls. I know many condos that are available this year for much less than they cost a few years ago. I also know many people who have been renting for years and have never been asked to pay more.

 

The RP has taxation on worldwide income. That may cost you. It would cost me a lot. I'm not aware that the bottom line of living in the RP is significantly lower than the bottom line of living here, though it would depend greatly on how you live and the sort of things you buy. Certainly if you are an alcoholic who eats only imported food you would probably be better off there.

 

Thank you for the follow up. 

 

Another posted a link noting the possibility via a 1.2 million dollar investment into Thailand. So the possibility is there it seems. The feasibility is the issues. Selling my home requires shifting to a tax sheltered expense as in another property IRS qualified disbursements. Or pay Capital gains on the difference. The minimum 40 million baht to invest is less than my home is valued at. That link says one rai of land. Which is larger than I was looking at from the information I currently have.

 

 Rolling over to an indexed annuity is my task for the day. I am sure some brokerage in Thailand offers them. The lower returns I can live with. As long as it is stable. I would not need to worry. But whether that is sufficient for to qualify for the investment requirement I need confirmation on.

 

Thailand has taxes and corruption same as governments the world over. Means there is always some tax benefits. Again whether they are worth the effort remains to be seen. But due diligence requires checking.

 

I am fortunate. Bottom of the line living whether in SEA or even the Philippines is not a concern for me. I have done well. In a country that provides incentive to do so. So I would not be eeking out a living from social security and perhaps a small pension. I am decades away from eligibility for social security in the US. I can afford too and have every intention of seeing all the old ruins in SEA. I want to see what other marvels Siam has to offer. Several palaces come to mind I have yet to see. 

 

 

 And while I am not The Man Who Ate Everything,  Jeffrey Steingarten. I have eaten bugs in Thailand. Tried Durian, lived on Ramen in school. Passed on Balut in the Phillipines. Food wise I would be fine just about anywhere.

 

I am not an alcoholic. I have not had a drink of alcohol this year. Unless one counts a chocolate cordial candy. So the bar fly lifestyle I can easily pass on. That said I have been in bars in Thailand. Pretty much all Male visitors will have at one point. 

 

And I have time. I am looking at 40 as the move date. So while I have read Thaivisa for a few years now. It being both amusing and having some actual good information in certain instances. I am at the point where networking is logical. I have have 2 links made available by this very thread. And will be checking for references on them. 

 

So while I appreciate your advice. It seems incomplete. As hard work to obtain a desired result is what I do now. I have every intention to do that over the next 2 years. And again I may not end up in Thailand. But unless I try I can never know.

 

Again thanks for the thoughtful reply. 

[tacoofthehillpeople]

3 minutes ago, moontang said:

Taco, where in the US are you?  Some of us will be able to relate better.  Can buy a 640 acre near Lovelock for 70K...

I am in South Carolina.  The upstate in an area known as Golden Hills. Lots of gentlemen farmers with dreams of a producing a winner at Churchill Downs. My ex was into horses. I was into her. Voila now empty stables. The Cliffs at Glassy you may have heard of. Lots of movie stars live there. About 15 minutes from where I am. Homes there of course pricier. So an affluent area. 640 acres here would be upper 8 to lower 9 figures. My home here is valued at about 2.6. I paid 1.05 originally. And currently rising. Thanks to a new world class equestrian center going in near. 640 acres? I would have to bought 30 years ago. And even then 70k would not have bought it. 

 

Money for me is not the issue. I can afford SEA. The issues are the same as any of you have. Stability,  1st world versus 3rd world amenities. Access to health care. For me ownership matters as well. Outside the former British embassy that Thaivisa once had an article on being for sale. I can afford the properties listed. But for even a few hundred thousand dollars I would want to own. I can buy an island in Palawan I have looked into it. As mentioned earlier. Ph love Americans. Zero language barriers. So many pluses. I like SEA though. And in the next 2 years. I intend to see about making it happen. 

 

Thank you for the continued replies. I will certainly look into Malay. But focus is SEA.

[moontang]

South Carolina one of the last States without parimutuel wagering..come up to Virginia if you want to see real money; Duponts, Mellons, Mars, McCormicks....but even there, Middleburg Training facility was 150 acres and only brought 1.5 million..a steal for sure.  I  used to moonlight as a teacher, while I was a full time gambler...the horse owners are  possibly the one tribe worse than the yacht owners.

[tacoofthehillpeople]

4 minutes ago, moontang said:

South Carolina one of the last States without parimutuel wagering..come up to Virginia if you want to see real money; Duponts, Mellons, Mars, McCormicks....but even there, Middleburg Training facility was 150 acres and only brought 1.5 million..a steal for sure.  I  used to moonlight as a teacher, while I was a full time gambler...the horse owners are  possibly the one tribe worse than the yacht owners.

But OTB is going through the state legislature. Not likely to pass the first or second time. But they will not want to lose the revenue. So eventually I see it passing. Corruption amongst politicians is comforting. You can count on it.

 

Most of my neighbors are nice. While we do not socialize daily. There are several events throughout the year. And of course see them out in restaurants.

 

The 10k an acre can still be had. Spartanburg SC is about 30 minutes away. Greenville, SC is about 45 minutes. Their outlying suburbs have much in that range. Even less if one travels further south. Union county in SC has a listing for 347 acres. You can buy it for 140k. The only problem nothing there. 70% of the populace leaves the county for work. 

 

And I have a ketch rigged sloop in Charleston, SC. I grew up in Chicago sailing on Lake Michigan. Started with a Sunfish.  Maybe find a nicer group of people. Most sailors are nice. I do not own a mega yacht. So you may be speaking of the those in stratified air. Guys with 30 to 50 foot boats here are pretty nice. Happy to take people out. Any excuse to sail. About a third are live aboard  their boats in the marina. The only reason I live where I do is the ex. Her family is from the upstate. And she likes horses. I prefer the water myself.