UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Sorry to break it to you, but the majority of Scots voted for independence; the vote was won by No due to the number of non-Scots eligible to vote, who voted to remain in the UK. So in reality, your Scottish 'brothers and sisters' chose to break away from you. 

 

Why so much hostility? I'm afraid you're just reinforcing the tired old stereotype of the 'curmudgeonly, bitter old Scot' with this kind of rhetoric.

I have 2 Jock mates here in LOS who I'm pretty close with and they both voted Remain and then Leave. My auntie, however, a rabidly-patriotic Highlander from Carbridge also voted Leave...twice, though ????. 

 

Point is, I would refrain from attempting to speak for your compatriots, a great many will completely disagree with your view, 3 of whom I just mentioned. 

 

Also, I'm not saying that Scotland or 'Scots' don't pay their way, they definitely have done. I'm aware of the fact that North sea oil is usually the 2nd largest net contributor to the exchequer,  but it's second to London/SE England's FS and has nearly always been so. Also, don't forget the price of oil dictates these contributions and in turn the level of subsidies delivered to Scotland by the rest of the UK.

 

''as a result of collapsing oil prices, Nicola Sturgeon has admitted, as new figures showed the country’s record reliance on UK subsidy.'

'Spending was £1200 more per head in Scotland than in the rest of the UK in 2015-16, while taxes raised per head were £400 lower, a gap of £1600. '

'Five years ago, Scots were net contributors to the exchequer, at £200 per head, however the oil price halving reversed that, and the gap is now the widest since devolution began.'

 

Distribution and manufacturing businesses took third and fourth place in terms of the contributions to tax revenues, from the year 2007-15, and the vast majority are in England, of course.

 

23 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

the vote was won by No due to the number of non-Scots eligible to vote, who voted to remain in the UK.

Hmmm, five words for you there:

 

- Reliable sources must be provided.

[evadgib]

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am afraid you need to revise your understanding of the UK and its constituent members. Scotland is a country and has been for much longer than the Union; the signing of the Act of Union did not dissolve that fact. 

 

My country voted to remain in the EU by 62/38%. Subsequent polling has shown support for the EU in Scotland to have grown to 74%. Despite however you wish to try to share the blame, this is and forever will be known as England's Brexit. 

I will resist the urge to accept your invitation to rejoin this debate as it clearly hasn't progressed in the months since I last stirred you up ????

+

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

24 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If they stayed at home, would the result have been any different? I cannot be bothered to check.

 

Nothing like a bit of casual bigotry on a Friday morning. But it's the Scots who hate the English?

 

Haha, really? Bigotry? Isn't it a genuine fact that the Highlanders are more often than not the die-hard separatists, and have been for many a year?

 

By the way, as I don't wish for this to 'devolve' into a personal or spiteful back-and-forth, I'll say this. When I say 'god love em' it isn't meant cynically or paternally. I really do and I don't want Scotland to leave the union either. I hope I don't live to see it happen. I love Scotland and the majority of Scots I meet.

 

They may not feel the same way about me, being southern English may not help? But nevertheless, doesn't change my view of the Scots. My great grandfather (a McNair) was a Lowlander and he was one of the best people you could hope to meet. He was a judge at the ICJ and the ECHR when it was still reputable. A truly great man.

Edited November 2, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Grouse]

15 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

pretty good news I would say

 

The other half made pro Brexit statements? I doubt any would...

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Why so much hostility? I'm afraid you're just reinforcing the tired old stereotype of the 'curmudgeonly, bitter old Scot' with this kind of rhetoric.

I have 2 Jock mates here in LOS who I'm pretty close with and they both voted Remain and then Leave. My auntie, however, a rabidly-patriotic Highlander from Carbridge also voted Leave...twice, though ????. 

 

Point is, I would refrain from attempting to speak for your compatriots, a great many will completely disagree with your view, 3 of whom I just mentioned. 

 

Also, I'm not saying that Scotland or 'Scots' don't pay their way, they definitely have done. I'm aware of the fact that North sea oil is usually the 2nd largest net contributor to the exchequer,  but it's second to London/SE England's FS and has nearly always been so. Also, don't forget the price of oil dictates these contributions and in turn the level of subsidies delivered to Scotland by the rest of the UK.

 

''as a result of collapsing oil prices, Nicola Sturgeon has admitted, as new figures showed the country’s record reliance on UK subsidy.'

'Spending was £1200 more per head in Scotland than in the rest of the UK in 2015-16, while taxes raised per head were £400 lower, a gap of £1600. '

'Five years ago, Scots were net contributors to the exchequer, at £200 per head, however the oil price halving reversed that, and the gap is now the widest since devolution began.'

 

Distribution and manufacturing businesses took third and fourth place in terms of the contributions to tax revenues, from the year 2007-15, and the vast majority are in England, of course.

 

No hostility, I assure you - but a lot of frustration at the tired old trope that the Scots are subsidised by England, when the reality is the opposite. I don't expect gratitude because it wasn't me personally who handed over the cash, but the much repeated lie that the Scots are subsidised by the English is really, really annoying.

 

11 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

37 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

the vote was won by No due to the number of non-Scots eligible to vote, who voted to remain in the UK.

Hmmm, five words for you there:

 

- Reliable sources must be provided.

How about this?

 

Majority of Scottish born voters said ‘yes’

Findings from Scottish Referendum Survey show Scotland stayed in Union because of views of those born in other parts of Britain and further afield

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

No hostility, I assure you - but a lot of frustration at the tired old trope that the Scots are subsidised by England, when the reality is the opposite. I don't expect gratitude because it wasn't me personally who handed over the cash, but the much repeated lie that the Scots are subsidised by the English is really, really annoying.

 

How about this?

 

Majority of Scottish born voters said ‘yes’

Findings from Scottish Referendum Survey show Scotland stayed in Union because of views of those born in other parts of Britain and further afield

matter of curiosity,

who were the non Jocks allowed to vote?

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

20 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Look up Cambridge Analytica.

Was Soros' contribution illegal?

Because Cambridge Analytica's was.

I'm always left at a loss when it comes to these claims that the referendum/elections have been influenced by Cambridge Analytica/facebook etc.

 

How exactly did they manage to do so??

 

I can sort of understand that the youngsters are heavily invested in fb and the like, as they all seem permanently attached to their smartphones - and so have been possibly passing around propaganda amongst each other?  I'd even agree that more than a few older people (who should know better....) behave in the same way.

 

But I still don't understand how 'the influence by foreign entities' claim works?

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

matter of curiosity,

who were the non Jocks allowed to vote?

 

 

This is from the BBC:

 

More than four million people in Scotland are eligible to vote. But who are they?

- British, Irish and all other European Union citizens who are resident in Scotland will be able to vote.

- Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the United Kingdom or do not require such leave also qualify.

- Members of the armed services will also be able to have their say - as long as they are registered to vote in Scotland.

- With the minimum voting age lowered to 16 for this referendum only, anyone born on or before 18 September, 1998, can cast a vote.

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, nontabury said:

Take a trip up to Boston. Maybe just maybe, you will hear English spoken, and then only by social workers and volunteers, who are doing everything possible to make the immigrants feel welcome. While ignoring the plight of their fellow citizens.

Allthough to be fair, most of the eastern Europeans are keen to work, encouraged by British bosses, who are only too keen to exploit the situation. I guess they must, all be remainers.

Please preserve us from these Ill informed English Monoglots

 

We can throw out immigrant with no job. EU migrants contribute 5billion in tax

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

No hostility, I assure you - but a lot of frustration at the tired old trope that the Scots are subsidised by England, when the reality is the opposite. I don't expect gratitude because it wasn't me personally who handed over the cash, but the much repeated lie that the Scots are subsidised by the English is really, really annoying.

 

How about this?

 

Majority of Scottish born voters said ‘yes’

Findings from Scottish Referendum Survey show Scotland stayed in Union because of views of those born in other parts of Britain and further afield

 

OK, I can't contest this. It may be right, I don't know the source, for one, so can I ask where it's from? Article or government survey or...?

 

I understand the frustration of Scots who feel cheated by the events of the last 4 years too, just to make myself and my position clear. I can't personally understand why anyone, Scot or English/Welsh would want to voluntarily remain part of the EU. For me it's a clear and easy decision. Nonetheless, if as a Scot you voted to leave the Union and then voted to Remain within the EU, and you've been experiencing the furore around Brexit and all the pro-remain government's ineptitude in handling it, I can't help but sympathise, a little. But this is democracy, and it doesn't simply mean getting your own way all or even half the time, and - though this viewpoint might have been in the majority within Scotland, there are still many who feel oppositely too, that much I am sure of.

 

As I said before, I would be truly saddened to see the break up of our own grand and long-successful union as the cost for Brexiting.

Edited November 2, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This is from the BBC:

 

More than four million people in Scotland are eligible to vote. But who are they?

- British, Irish and all other European Union citizens who are resident in Scotland will be able to vote.

- Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the United Kingdom or do not require such leave also qualify.

- Members of the armed services will also be able to have their say - as long as they are registered to vote in Scotland.

- With the minimum voting age lowered to 16 for this referendum only, anyone born on or before 18 September, 1998, can cast a vote.

 

Last time, SNP were allowed a very free rein in deciding the terms and conditions of the vote, right down to the day it was to be held on.  It was to be a once and for all vote.  Avid vote 'yes' supporters were demanding a new referendum the day after.

 

I despise referenda now I must admit.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This is from the BBC:

 

More than four million people in Scotland are eligible to vote. But who are they?

- British, Irish and all other European Union citizens who are resident in Scotland will be able to vote.

- Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the United Kingdom or do not require such leave also qualify.

- Members of the armed services will also be able to have their say - as long as they are registered to vote in Scotland.

 

 

Interesting info, I am guessing it's correct?

 

If so

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

With the minimum voting age lowered to 16 for this referendum only, anyone born on or before 18 September, 1998, can cast a vote.

Do you think this made much of a difference in the way it went?????

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This is from the BBC:

 

More than four million people in Scotland are eligible to vote. But who are they?

- British, Irish and all other European Union citizens who are resident in Scotland will be able to vote.

- Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the United Kingdom or do not require such leave also qualify.

- Members of the armed services will also be able to have their say - as long as they are registered to vote in Scotland.

- With the minimum voting age lowered to 16 for this referendum only, anyone born on or before 18 September, 1998, can cast a vote.

right, I see, partly cunning fish this Salmon(d)

lowering the age probably a wise move by fish

EU citizens? nee good by fish

commonwealth, nah fish

defence? bah!

 

think the fish almost hit the mid of his foot on this one,

lowering  the age was probably a clever move

 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

OK, I can't contest this. It may be right, I don't know the source for one, so can I ask where it's from? Article or government survey or...?

 

I understand the frustration of Scots who feel cheated by the events of the last 4 years too, just to make myself and my position clear. I can't personally understand why anyone, Scot or English/Welsh would want to voluntarily remain part of the EU. For me it's a clear and easy decision. Nonetheless, if as a Scot you voted to leave the Union and then voted to Remain within the EU, and you've been experiencing the furore around Brexit and all the pro-remain government's ineptitude in handling it, I can't help but sympathise, a little. But this democracy, and it doesn't simply mean getting your own way all or even half the time, and - though this viewpoint might have been in the majority within Scotland, there are still many who feel oppositely too, that much I am sure of.

 

As I said before, I would be truly saddened to see the break up of our own grand and long-successful union as the cost for Brexiting.

I must apolgise to everyone on this thread for, once more, derailing it from the actual topic. I am happy to debate this on a Scottish independence thread but I feel genuinely guilty for, yet again, throwing it off canter. 

[mommysboy]

Incidentally:

 

referendum : singular

referenda : plural

referendi : plural latin

 

referendums- popular but mistaken plural.

 

I think anyway!

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

I must apolgise to everyone on this thread for, once more, derailing it from the actual topic. I am happy to debate this on a Scottish independence thread but I feel genuinely guilty for, yet again, throwing it off canter. 

I don't mind Rudy: there are parallels with the Brexit vote, and many real Brits are mindful of the damaging consequences of Brexit on the Union.

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I must apolgise to everyone on this thread for, once more, derailing it from the actual topic. I am happy to debate this on a Scottish independence thread but I feel genuinely guilty for, yet again, throwing it off canter. 

 

what rubbish soi RR,

Scotland's stance on these matters, independence from oppressors duun south and wish to remain in EU is

a pretty key ingredient in the Brexit effort'

 

this Brexit happening sets the whole of foggy islands in play, Scotland is a crucial part of that

 

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Simple leave the EU, Leave the single market , leave the Custom Union and leave the European Court's jurisdiction  

Why?

[dick dasterdly]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Please preserve us from these Ill informed English Monoglots

 

We can throw out immigrant with no job. EU migrants contribute 5billion in tax

Brit. employees paid a reasonable wage would pay at least a similar amount.

[wombat]

what final decision, the one that says democracy has ended

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Brit. employees paid a reasonable wage would pay at least a similar amount.

But we don't have an unemployment problem - it is currently at a record low. Who will perform the work that the repatriated EU workers currently do?

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

But we don't have an unemployment problem - it is currently at a record low. Who will perform the work that the repatriated EU workers currently do?

Do you genuinely believe the govt.'s unemployment statistics?? ????

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Do you genuinely believe the govt.'s unemployment statistics?? ????

Is that a rhetorical question? ????

 

[Patriot1066]

9 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Ex-chair of Vote Leave: Labour could be ‘wiped out’ if it tries to block Brexit

 

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/ex-chair-vote-leave-labour-could-be-wiped-out-if-it-tries-block-brexit-18110128600#zrZcHlDLpW4tYlEH.99
 

Yep

[Patriot1066]

31 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But we don't have an unemployment problem - it is currently at a record low. Who will perform the work that the repatriated EU workers currently do?

Well productivity is low as an availability of very cheap labour and off the books staff, so companies will invest in more technologies.

 

There will be a scheme to allow some to come, but every few thousand that leaves saves the NHS local councils and ultimately the tax payer so win win?

[Patriot1066]

24 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Is that a rhetorical question? ????

 

Must be a remainers they only appear to believe the statistics they like, unless the government have ditched project fear and it’s now ‘project move forward to victory?’

[Orac]

But we don't have an unemployment problem - it is currently at a record low. Who will perform the work that the repatriated EU workers currently do?

I believe the phrase the Institute of Economic Affairs use is “greater labour force participation at older ages” .


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[rixalex]

But we don't have an unemployment problem - it is currently at a record low. Who will perform the work that the repatriated EU workers currently do?

Controlling the border doesn't mean closing it. If the country needs foreign workers, it can bring them in on work visas, as is the case in many other countries around the world.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Can you provide backing for that, because there is plenty evidence to suggest that you are talking out of your hat, I am afraid. 

 

But any opportunity to escape this corrupt and poisonous union would be welcomed by many in Scotland, so if the English decide to kick us out, I can assure you that there would be little in the way of ill feeling from us.

That's a huge hairy hat BTW

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm always left at a loss when it comes to these claims that the referendum/elections have been influenced by Cambridge Analytica/facebook etc.

 

How exactly did they manage to do so??

 

I can sort of understand that the youngsters are heavily invested in fb and the like, as they all seem permanently attached to their smartphones - and so have been possibly passing around propaganda amongst each other?  I'd even agree that more than a few older people (who should know better....) behave in the same way.

 

But I still don't understand how 'the influence by foreign entities' claim works?

Neural network based pattern recognition for targeted subliminal messaging.

 

Investigate. It's all there

 

(I wish I had thought of it!)