Elon Musk 'to be sued in Thailand, London and US’ by cave diver he called 'paedo' in baseless remark

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, snowgard said:

17 hours ago, JLCrab said:

In the USA, based upon a judge's procedural rulings, it might be Unsworth who has to prove that he is not a pedo.

I not think so. Him is not a public person. The cave story is a one time story. The law for private persons is easier:

Specifically, public figures and plaintiffs are not only required to prove that the allegedly defamatory statements in question are false and harmful, but that the party who made or published them acted with “actual malice” or “reckless disregard for the truth.” Private persons and plaintiffs have a much less strict standard they need to prove, and are only required to prove the party or organization in question published the statement(s) with ordinary negligence.

Source: https://www.minclaw.com/defamation-of-character-what-is-online-defamation/

But you overlooked this from that same website:

Limited-Purpose Public Figures (LPPFs)

LPPFs are generally persons who have only availed themselves to public comment, criticism, or debate for a particular issue or controversy

 

[sanemax]

18 minutes ago, side said:

Sure I do.

 

Hence my point: which part of Unsworth's widely available interview on video constitutes defamation? He says the Musk's Submarine Pod wouldn't have made it through the cave, it couldn't have gone round corners etc. That's a technical opinion. 

Musk also stated that he would prove that his submarine would have worked , by making the same journey at a later date .

   Musk would look quite stupid , suing a person who claimed that his submarine wouldnt work , and indeed it doesnt work .

[side]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Musk also stated that he would prove that his submarine would have worked , by making the same journey at a later date .

   Musk would look quite stupid , suing a person who claimed that his submarine wouldnt work , and indeed it doesnt work .

There's a fun point, I hadn't seen that statement by Musk. He should try it!

[Artisi]

Just now, side said:

Not defamation, I'll agree with that all the way.

 

Though I do understand that Unsworth has some technical knowledge of the caves as a diver and therefore his comment may fall into the technical category, but let's not split hairs as we agree in principle ?

Unsworth for some reason is continually called a driver, guess it looks good in print, however he is a caver - not a diver and apparently knows this particular cave inside out - he was of the opinion that the sub was not likely to pass thru' the  cave restrictions - an opinion, not a fact as it hadn't tried in the cave. 

[Artisi]

4 minutes ago, side said:

There's a fun point, I hadn't seen that statement by Musk. He should try it!

If Musk is so sure of himself and the suitability of this toy sub, I would suggest be gets himself inside it, organises a team of divers and immediately proceed to trial it while  the cave is still flooded,  Unsworth might even come up with a map of the cave system to assist the exercise. .

[side]

2 minutes ago, Artisi said:

If Musk is so sure of himself and the suitability of this toy sub, I would suggest be gets himself inside it, organises a team of divers and immediately proceed to trial it while  the cave is still flooded,  Unsworth might even come up with a map of the cave system to assist the exercise. .

Exactly!

[Horace]

24 minutes ago, theonetrueaussie said:

That may be true or it may be that Musk is extremely smart, has the evidence and is letting you, the media and everyone else dig their own holes. Let it go to court and then provide evidence and make it seem like all his enemies supported a pedofile. As I said before only time will tell on this case. 

 

If Musk has evidence and waits to release it, it won't look good.  It will look like he's playing a game.  He'll still be criticized for not releasing information he had about a dangerous child rapist.  I don't see how any of this helps Musk.  I can't see any narrative where Musk turns out to be the hero.  He's either (a) making horrendous and baseless claims about some guy who simply criticized his publicity seeking submarine scheme or (b) he's holding back evidence about a dangerous criminal.

 

I don't see a happy ending for Musk.  Right now, he looks like some idiot billionaire making baseless claims to divert attention from the failings of his business ventures in the US.  And if he's sitting on evidence that back up this horrendous claims, he still comes out looking like a smug a**hole.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Horace

[hobz]

19 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

No it is not ridiculous. My understanding from Musk's own comments is that Vernon was offered free legal services, so he better sue in every country that is concerned in this defamation case. The more court cases the better, as they are all independent, and will carry different charges.

 

 

Well he was here 3 months ago, and maybe one day he will return, or be on a flight that makes a stopover in Thailand.

Don't these countries have some kind of double jeopardy rules? Otherwise it would be much more common to sue ppl in multiple countries?? I think the UK us and Thailand is just a first negotiation tactic. This will be settled out of court. 

If not he will pick one of those countries I guess??

Please correct me if I'm wrong and excuse my ignorance ?

[ravip]

Proves that Development and money doesn't improve the grey matter up there.

[gamini]

20 hours ago, colinneil said:

Vern Unsworth started this nonsense, now he is going overboard suing Musk in 3 countries.

You need to be very careful maybe it will come back and bite you in the backside.

They were both wrong, both made stupid remarks, and why is Vern buggering up his life with this nonsense, live and let live, move on enjoy whats left of your life.

Let's face it he's a pretty ugly old guy with a stunning young wife. No one should call him a "Paedo". But it raises eyebrows as to what she sees in him. I would call him a sexpat

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, JCauto said:

Right, so being dismissive, snide and classless makes you fair game for being publicly accused of being a pedophile by a guy who's megaphone broadcasts to the entire world?

Of course not, and nowhere did I suggest otherwise. 

 

4 hours ago, JCauto said:

Regardless of his manners, if you came to me and started trying to solve a problem in my area of expertise in a manner that was completely obvious and clear to me would not work, I would tell you so and why. If you persisted in attempting to do the thing after having had the impossibility explained and had an obvious ulterior motive in doing so, I would start to become rude, because you were ignoring my well-founded advice and your presence was therefore at best a distraction and at worst an obstruction.

I understand that he was approached to help, but maybe you have different knowledge of how he got involved? At what point was he told that he was barking up the wrong tree? I have no idea, do you? Was he told to back off but persisted in the face of considered advice? That would certainly show he was the idiot he has since been determined to prove himself to be. 

 

But, as I said, I watched the interview with Vernon and I thought he came across as unnecessarily snide. He could have said what he wanted to say without the sneer and the dismissive attitude. If he had responded in a grown up manner, this row would have been a non-event. That does not excuse what Musk said about him, but it demonstrates how one childish remark begets another. 

 

 

 

 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, gamini said:

Let's face it he's a pretty ugly old guy with a stunning young wife. No one should call him a "Paedo". But it raises eyebrows as to what she sees in him. I would call him a sexpat

Gawd, I hope Mrs.Trans don't read that...?

 

PS..Must add, I have never yet seen a hansum farang with a Thai bird, so l think Vern is in the clear regarding that stuff....?

[Parsve]

1 hour ago, colinneil said:

You are wrong Musk could sue Unsworth here, for defamation.

And how could that be? What Vern has done, is said, in some rude way, that the submarine would not work.  Just think of what could have happened if the authorities had listened to Musk. What Musk has done is that he, not only once, but twice has submitted statements that Vern is a criminal.  A big difference.

[frostycarl]

How Ridiculous!!!!! Did Elon hurt big Vern`s feeling calling him a paedo!!!! Me thinks Vern should tuck his skirt in and get on with life. <deleted>!!

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, frostycarl said:

How Ridiculous!!!!! Did Elon hurt big Vern`s feeling calling him a paedo!!!! Me thinks Vern should tuck his skirt in and get on with life. <deleted>!!

Problem with that , people would think that the accusations were true and it would have a detrimental affect on Verns life

[transam]

1 minute ago, frostycarl said:

How Ridiculous!!!!! Did Elon hurt big Vern`s feeling calling him a paedo!!!! Me thinks Vern should tuck his skirt in and get on with life. <deleted>!!

Well hello, nice to meet you...

So if I called you a kiddie fiddler on the Net you would be OK with it..?

[digger70]

20 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

"It's not illegal to call somebody a pedo,"

It is in Thailand. 

Says WHO ?   You ?

Edited September 7, 2018 by digger70

[Horace]

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

2 hours ago, snowgard said:

19 hours ago, JLCrab said:

In the USA, based upon a judge's procedural rulings, it might be Unsworth who has to prove that he is not a pedo.

I not think so. Him is not a public person. The cave story is a one time story. The law for private persons is easier:

Specifically, public figures and plaintiffs are not only required to prove that the allegedly defamatory statements in question are false and harmful, but that the party who made or published them acted with “actual malice” or “reckless disregard for the truth.” Private persons and plaintiffs have a much less strict standard they need to prove, and are only required to prove the party or organization in question published the statement(s) with ordinary negligence.

Source: https://www.minclaw.com/defamation-of-character-what-is-online-defamation/

But you overlooked this from that same website:

Limited-Purpose Public Figures (LPPFs)

LPPFs are generally persons who have only availed themselves to public comment, criticism, or debate for a particular issue or controversy

 

 

If Vernon is a limited purpose public figure - debatable, but lets assume he Musk can establish that Vernon is a limited purpose public figure - than Vernon has to prove "actual malice".  Will that really be so hard if these claims are bogus?  Here is the definition of "actual malice":

 

actual malice occurs when:

• The defendant publishes a statement about the plaintiff he knows is false; or

• The defendant publishes a statement about the plaintiff with reckless disregard for whether it is false or true.

In other words, defendants who make statements about public figures are expected to do some background research if they doubt the statement is true. They are also expected not to publish any statement that they know is not true.

 

I see no evidence of Muck doing any research.  I really don't think he did any.  We have seen how this guy reacts to criticism and his publicity seeking hound.

 

I think he got pissed off because some "nobody" (in Musk's view) in northern Thailand said that the "great rescue plan" of publicity seeking Musk would not work in a rather pointed fashion (everyone seems to think Vernon was right about this) and Musk got pissed because he looked like a fool.  He responded with these outrageous comments without doing any background research whatsoever.  That seems to Musk's character; he is not known for being calm and deliberative. I could be wrong, but I think that is what happened.  We'll see in discovery what happened.

 

I also don't think any judge or jury will be sympathetic to Musk when he makes these sorts of claims.

[nontabury]

21 hours ago, racket said:

Is Vern going to court just to prove he's not a pedo? It's not illegal to call somebody a pedo, but since there's a dispute he needs to prove he isn't. Elon could easily just funnel some cash to his thai girlfriend and endup turning against him. He could also slide off future investments in thailand, and will thai authorities be happy with that? Could Vern perhaps risk being blacklisted? 

 

I'm getting sick of this Vern guy who's nothing more but a looser hiding in Chiang Rai thinking he was the only hero in the cave rescue operation. I first thought he was reasonable and did a great job, but I'm done supporting the guy. Now we all understand he's doing everything he can to squeeze some cash out of Musk. 

As You are someone who has only joined T.V since this started, I’m now thinking that you could quite easily be part of this multi millionaires P.R. team.

[Pedrogaz]

Brilliant legal move. Defamation carries a prison sentence here....and the possibility of an international arrest warrant, although deportation will be an issue. He could have sued in America for piles of cash, or Britain for reputation.

[JCauto]

55 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course not, and nowhere did I suggest otherwise. 

 

I understand that he was approached to help, but maybe you have different knowledge of how he got involved? At what point was he told that he was barking up the wrong tree? I have no idea, do you? Was he told to back off but persisted in the face of considered advice? That would certainly show he was the idiot he has since been determined to prove himself to be. 

 

But, as I said, I watched the interview with Vernon and I thought he came across as unnecessarily snide. He could have said what he wanted to say without the sneer and the dismissive attitude. If he had responded in a grown up manner, this row would have been a non-event. That does not excuse what Musk said about him, but it demonstrates how one childish remark begets another. 

 

I understand your point. I too tend to be civil and polite as a rule, being Canadian. On the other hand, I can understand his perspective. This was a problem that he had unique insight to offer to assist with that had been gained through years of slogging through the caves. He was working as part of the teams who were cooperating to get the kids out. Then this bigshot flies in promising miracle solutions that turn out to be no solution at all, steals a bunch of attention and in a way that could be interpreted as being in his company's promotional self-interest. I can understand his being pissed off with these guys.

 

I too have worked in the region for years and gotten to know a fair bit about things in my field, and one of the most annoying experiences is when so-called experts from abroad fly in with their wonderful solutions that work quite well where they are, but aren't at all appropriate for where we are. They ignore what we've been doing and our advice and often proceed to attempt to implement their bad ideas to the detriment of the work we've been carefully building up for years. They always do so on their own, without much involvement of the locals as they don't speak the language, don't know the culture, and once they've gotten what they wanted out of it, they fly away to their next thing, leaving the wreckage of whatever they did behind. Elon has a bit of a hero complex and gets petulant when what he does fails to save the day and leave him covered in rose petals.

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, JCauto said:

I understand your point. I too tend to be civil and polite as a rule, being Canadian. On the other hand, I can understand his perspective. This was a problem that he had unique insight to offer to assist with that had been gained through years of slogging through the caves. He was working as part of the teams who were cooperating to get the kids out. Then this bigshot flies in promising miracle solutions that turn out to be no solution at all, steals a bunch of attention and in a way that could be interpreted as being in his company's promotional self-interest. I can understand his being pissed off with these guys.

 

I too have worked in the region for years and gotten to know a fair bit about things in my field, and one of the most annoying experiences is when so-called experts from abroad fly in with their wonderful solutions that work quite well where they are, but aren't at all appropriate for where we are. They ignore what we've been doing and our advice and often proceed to attempt to implement their bad ideas to the detriment of the work we've been carefully building up for years. They always do so on their own, without much involvement of the locals as they don't speak the language, don't know the culture, and once they've gotten what they wanted out of it, they fly away to their next thing, leaving the wreckage of whatever they did behind. Elon has a bit of a hero complex and gets petulant when what he does fails to save the day and leave him covered in rose petals.

Very much like pop stars who visit refugee camps to offer support and all the media come and go with them .

  I do recall when a famous singer visited the Ethiopian  refugee camps during the starvation period and the singer stood in fron of the media and said

" I dont know the answer to these problems"

And an aid worker replied .

"Of course you dont , you just sing songs "

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Elon Musk is live in Joe Rogan just now.

 

I've not listened from the start and haven't heard him mention anything about his comments on Vern Unsworth but this is the first I've actually heard Musk speak.

 

Some might be interested:

 

 

[frostycarl]

43 minutes ago, transam said:

Well hello, nice to meet you...

So if I called you a kiddie fiddler on the Net you would be OK with it..?

Really!

[wvavin]

The AMLO should start investigating where this Vernon guy got this much money to sue.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, frostycarl said:

Really!

Yes, and a simple answer to my question would be appreciated...?

[side]

2 minutes ago, wvavin said:

The AMLO should start investigating where this Vernon guy got this much money to sue.

You haven't really being paying much attention right?

[Seadog48]

21 hours ago, colinneil said:

Vern Unsworth started this nonsense, now he is going overboard suing Musk in 3 countries.

You need to be very careful maybe it will come back and bite you in the backside.

They were both wrong, both made stupid remarks, and why is Vern buggering up his life with this nonsense, live and let live, move on enjoy whats left of your life.

Being accused of being a pedophile will bugger up anyone's life and it must be extremely hard to just "move on and enjoy what's  left of your life" with that hanging over your head.  I don't blame him for suing Elon Musk.  Besides, Elon Musk is using the very fact that Mr. Unsworth hasn't sued as evidence of his guilt.  If Mr. Unsworth is innocent then he should sue the pants off Musk for making a slanderous unsubstantiated claim.

[Internatltraveler]

Well, here we go again with stupidity at its elevated highest. First of all, the laws of libel, slander and defamation of character in civilized countries, that allow freedom of speech have a very high bar to reach. In the USA there must be proof of harm being done in the form of lost income or the like in order to bring the case to a court. This caver, maybe is a nice guy, maybe not. We don't know much about him other than here say. I don't believe there is not going to be a case based in the USA regardless of his big mouth. I do not know what the legal standard in Britain is, but I suspect with freedom of speech aplenty there also a case is not going to go very far. This Vern character of this soap show does not have a lot of money or he does not have much smarts if he thinks he is going to get one dime from Musk anywhere in the world. Vern, just stop your nonsense. No one even cares about you in the first place! Go on and live your life. You are just one more old man chasing his retirement dream living in this country. Get over it!!!! And those of you who think being called a name did not have mothers like mine, who said something about sticks and stones that break your bones!

 

Even in Thailand, what rights do foreigners have anyway? We are not citizens of the country and it is possible that something like this is beyond the jurisdictional authority of the courts here to prosecute. Vern is a windbag and when there is this much smoke, there often is some fire also. An honorable person does not have to defend their honor in the first place. Honor stands unto itself. Musk may have done a background check on Vern, who knows, and found some skeletons in the closet somewhere. After all, Musk is one of the brightest men in the world, it is said, so I don't think anyone out here should take him as a stupid person.

 

I agree with others who are getting tired of Vern tooting his own horn or even his horn being tooted by the media. The cave trauma was a total effort of many people including a Thai Seal who lost his life attempting to help out. We have completely forgotten the call to duty and the loss of life that occurred here.

 

But I think Mr. Vern is going to be in for a huge cultural shock, which was probably helped by an ambulance chasing attorney who is simply out for media attention and as much money as he can get from a hopeless case.

 

As in everything else, the court of public opinion, here on this site is filled with wanna be attorneys who are for the most part ignorant of the laws and simply show their ignorance of reality. Well the court of public opinion may work here in this country but in more law abiding countries, that same public arena is simply like watching the fixed events of professional wrestling...all show with nothing real about it. The interesting thing to me is to read how so many from such a variety of cultures regard these events and then we can begin to realize what the real problems in our affiliated cultures are if we are examples of our home cultures...geeeeze no wonder the world is in a mess right now! So much venom being spewed by so many varieties of snakes!!

[Speedhump]

21 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

"It's not illegal to call somebody a pedo,"

It is in Thailand. 

I thought most people understood it is illegal if untrue and damaging. Anywhere in the world. Its called slander if verbal and libel if written. Vern should get his payday, why not?

 

21 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

"It's not illegal to call somebody a pedo,"

It is in Thailand. .