School Kids Shot In Bus Attack

[John K]

My Opinion stands.

[ColPyat]

My Opinion stands.

That appears the only thing in your argumentation that seems to stand contrary to all reality.

Your facts though definitely don't.

[Phil Conners]

Schools, unarmed students, monks, teachers.

What brave warriors these people must be.

Muslims! What's new, no different that any of their other many despicable terrorist attacks.

[longway]

i am not sure you are right that the reason that the bus was attacked was because it was precieved to be a military target.

isnt it true that at least some elements of the insurgency or whatever you want to call it want to drive out the buddhists from the provinces. hence the the constant attacks on civilians.

killing a busload of school children could well have been a deliberate act to terror enacted to try to drive out people they deem to be foreigners.

If a busload of school children had been killed then you might be correct but the original post said that some were injured and one critically....it did not mention any deaths. The original post indicated that there were two or more shooters....if they knew they were shooting at a bus full of kids and if they wanted to kill some it seems that it would have been easy enough to do....but they didn't. It seems to me that either they thought the bus was full of armed soldiers so they did their shooting from a distance (and didn't notice it was full of kids) or they knew it was full of kids and really didn't want to kill them..only to scare people....which seems like anyone wanting to stir up trouble in the south could have done....lose canon police or military units included.

Chownah

yes there are many possible scenarios and the details in the OP are sketchy at best.

i think it is still possible the the bus was attacked because it did contain school children, though as you say it is at least just as plausible that the gunmen decided to fire on a passing military vehicle and then run away.

[davidjtayler]

As often happens in cases like this where there are young, innocent victims involved emotions run high and debate is usually fiercely heated and as can be seen on this thread can become a bit of a dog fight at times.

I'm sure you would find this echoed in the real life mechanics of this situation and similar situations that have occured in other parts of the world ie the Quebec independence issue, the Aceh issue and albeit slightly different the Northern Irish issue

This usually negates the constructive elements and forward momentum of any peace or conciliation effort where situations become bogged down in personal and political quagmires.

In all fairness to the Colonel, he hasn't condoned the shooting of the school bus but has just opened the debate to reasons behind the shooting and pointed out incidents that have occured on the other side of the fence that have exaccerbated the current situation ... sometimes though Colonel your blunt 'eye openers' can lack sensitivity, hence the reaction from many other posters on this thread.

As for the situation in the south I would like to prolong this debate but at a slightly different angle and with some forward and constructive momentum by reasoning that there is hope and that no situation is unresolvable ... where there is a will there is a way as has been seen in other situations of this kind.

I personally feel that the might of the gun will not solve this but calm, reasoned, debate with a respected, neutral middle group such as happened in Aceh would be the way forth.

All sides need to be listened to (don't forget that there are Thai residents in this area that don't want independence) before compromises and consessions can be given and/or received.

It's a time consuming process and all sides need to give and take but just the action of sitting and listening and acting will go a long way forward to a possible process of peace and stability.

I have very much simplified this so as to give a brief overview but am under no illusion that the actual process itself would be a long, complex and protracted affair due to the historical longevity and deep seated grievances involved on all sides within this situation but if it can be achieved in other places there is no reason it cannot be achieved here also in Thailand.

[Mai Krap]

Not even worth an answer, but check Iraq, Philippines, and a few other places or go back to my old posts. All the same goals, all the same battle cries, and seemingly all the same religion. Some news clipping suggest some of Osama’s people are now active in the south so it is one big happy pack of animals here. That is why I was not limiting my comments to just Thailand you need to look at the bigger picture.

Kayo I am not bashing him, I am just trying to keep him from wandering off what I am saying and trying to change the intent of my post. I do agree with him on some points, but it seems to be like walking a dog on a long leash, tends to wander off a bit. My whole contribution to this thread was to the tragedy and human nature.

So now youre trying to add Osama Bin Laden into the mix of southern troubles? Youre trying to make the southern issue part of the global war on terrorism, are you not? This thread is about attacking children is it not? Your posts are condeming the act of attacking children is it not? I suggest you do your homework and try to figure out how many Muslim children have died in the so called war on terrorism since 2001 verses how many non muslim children have died and then get back to us.

For the record I absolutly condem the act of attacking the bus in the south.

Edited March 3, 2007 by Mai Krap

[ColPyat]

... sometimes though Colonel your blunt 'eye openers' can lack sensitivity, hence the reaction from many other posters on this thread.

I will try now to get into touch with my inner female side, or however that is called.

Anyhow, gotta catch a flight now, see 'ya in a few days.

[davidjtayler]

... sometimes though Colonel your blunt 'eye openers' can lack sensitivity, hence the reaction from many other posters on this thread.

I will try now to get into touch with my inner female side, or however that is called.

Anyhow, gotta catch a flight now, see 'ya in a few days.

Have a safe flight colonel and don't you go coming back as a katoy now ....

[younghusband]

Schools, unarmed students, monks, teachers.

What brave warriors these people must be.

Muslims! What's new, no different that any of their other many despicable terrorist attacks.

You can accuse Islamic terrorists of many things -fanatacism, cruelty, wrongheadedness, irrationality, wickedness -but not I think cowardice.There was a major public debate about this in the US after 9/11.It takes a kind of insane courage to fly into a skyscraper or become a suicide bomber.So the jibe "what brave warriors" is a little off the mark.

On this thread generally I find it amazing that posters should pronounce with certainty on what the experts don't know.Take for example the Al Quaeeda influence on events in the South.All the material I have seen suggests this is still a very murky area with no certainties known as yet.

Edited March 3, 2007 by younghusband

[Bottlerocket]

It's been really amusing reading all this, except for the main article of course. "They're insurgents!" "They're freedomfighters!" "They're self-respecting humans seeking autonomy and redressing legitimate greivances!" "They're vile animals nurturing destruction through cowardly terrorist actions!" yada yada yada

At some point in our zealously utopian illusions about how things ought to work in this world we have to boil it down. Forget reasons, retributions. Forget who did what first. The fact is this: in our illusion we are confident that for this issue to be truly resolved it requires diplomacy and negotiation. If they all put down there arms and initiated constructive dialogue like civilized human beings they would eventually be able to set aside their differences, make compromises, and all the world would live forever in harmony. The End

I'm convinced the odds for that happening couldn't be represented by a number much greater than zero. If I'm correct then that leaves us with this tit for tat battle being fought ad eternum. Neither side of this conflict wants that. When will the boiling point be reached? Obviously the Thai military is superior in arms and in reality they have exercised great restraint by not turning it into a mass execution campaign. They've done some bad things albeit, but they could've done much much worse damage. I think they're hanging on. I think they're battling in-fighting about solutions to the problem. I think they're fighting the primal rage that was spoken of earlier that could only lead them to a harsher strategy. I think they're making sure the news we all read is sanitized and just a little bit slanted because that's what power structures do. I think they know the world is watching and are seriously considering their reaction-time in light of this.

Terrorism (fighting without a uniform and covertly attacking anything representative of the power structure at large) is a formidable tactic and can realize great accomplishments against seemingly overwhelming dominate forces. However, when push comes to shove and the main population is properly motivated, a quick concerted eradication effort is not at all unfeasible. It has happened here before.

Is this where it's heading? Because all of our opinions posted here about right and wrong are pure conjecture and intellectual masturbation. It doesn't concern us in the least if we haven't taken up arms with one side or another. What's going to happen next?

[John K]

Next colpyat will attack what you say.

[pgrin]

2 female students killed in drive-by shooting on their way to final exam

Yala - Two female students were killed in drive-by shooting Saturday morning while they were riding their motorcycle to take a final examination.

Kanokkarn Khumvaen, 15, and Sukanda Srichan, 17, were killed by insurgents on a motorcycle at 8:30 am on the Rusoh-Sri Sakhon Road in Si Sakhon district.

They were riding their motorcycle to the Rajabhat Institute Yala to take a final examination.

The Nation

[John K]

Well it certainly sounds like students and children are targets now.

[DrDweeb]

Well it certainly sounds like students and children are targets now.

Naturally, they are soft targets. If you belong to a radical, totally trivial minority without popular support but with weapons, the way forward is clear. It is tried and proven. Hit soft targets, run and hide, and start a reign of terror against anyone who might disagree, no matter what their affiliation (in this case kill muslims who do not subscribe to the "cause") etc. It's not like these tactics were thought up by these people - I doubt whether any of them are that smart.

Eventually everyone will get tired of the killing and perhaps some pointless agreement will be reached between a small heavily armed elite and their "enemy" the state. After which this elite will then proceed to embark upon the necessary activities to cleanse their territory and achieve their misguided inhuman aims.

Sorry, guys, this is how it works. Deal with it now, or watch with horror now and more later.

The bottom line is Islam is still in the 12C and it's most radical believers have lots of firearms. Sharing the earth is not part of their religion - explicitly the opposite in fact. You do the math.

[John K]

It is so sad to see the animals sub-species or whatever targeting children. I also doubt anyone would have any defense or sympathize with the animals and not make him or her self a target too at this point. This last attack no doubt signals children are on the hit list and the bus attack was no accident. When the beheading started it made major news and now it has just blended into the blur.

Personally I am not the violent type but in a case like this it makes me want to go on the front lines and assist in the corrective action. This action is simply not acceptable in any human way form or fashion. I feel that they have turned terror into anger because it has now hit on the survival instinct at the primal level. The flight option is off the table at this point for many because the gut feeling inside says they will only spread if left unchecked, so removal is the only corrective action.

Saddam Hussein used children as human shields, this group has now taken it to another level. All bets off at this point. I would not put it past locals at this point to band and joint the military and even make their own death squads. A sad day for Thailand indeed.

[John K]

Military may escalate South pressure

Thai Defence Minister Boonrawd Somtas said Saturday that pro-active measures are needed against the continuing insurgency in restive south as defensive strategy alone could not cope with almost daily violence.

Gen. Boonrawd told the press in Bangkok that he went to Pattani Friday to boost morale of security officials there as well as to learn about their problems to report to the cabinet in considering solutions.

The minister said part of the problem in the three southern border provinces of Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani was due to widespread narcotics consumption, as the militants offered drugs to young men.

He said the violence problem in the region must be considered from both security and drug-related perspectives.

Security officials must from now on employ stringent measures and they must use more offensive measure through local villagers' cooperation in order to strengthen communities, he added.

In other developments, Army, police and administrative officials Saturday interrogated a suspected militant who was believed to have fled during a clash between army rangers and a group of militants on a mountain in Narathiwat Friday.

Thirty-year-old suspect Doramae Mudo-aceh was brought from his home in Joh I Rong district for interrogation at the district police station.

Upon learning that the man would be taken for questioning, a group of local women and children surrounded the officials as they escorted Mr. Doramae in a bid to prevent them from taking the suspect away. The village headman was later asked to explain to the protesters that the suspect would be released if he was found innocent.

After more than an hour of negotiations, the villagers let the officials lead him away.

Rumours circulating among villagers in two districts here state that the men who were killed by army personnel yesterday were not insurgents but were only illegal log poachers.

At least five suspected militants were shot dead in the clash with army rangers while an undetermined number were wounded in the encounter. The army also seized an militant training camp, the first since the violence was renewed in the three troubled southern provinces of Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat three years ago. (TNA)

[blaze]

It is so sad to see the animals sub-species or whatever targeting children. I also doubt anyone would have any defense or sympathize with the animals and not make him or her self a target too at this point. This last attack no doubt signals children are on the hit list and the bus attack was no accident. When the beheading started it made major news and now it has just blended into the blur.

Personally I am not the violent type but in a case like this it makes me want to go on the front lines and assist in the corrective action. This action is simply not acceptable in any human way form or fashion. I feel that they have turned terror into anger because it has now hit on the survival instinct at the primal level. The flight option is off the table at this point for many because the gut feeling inside says they will only spread if left unchecked, so removal is the only corrective action.

Saddam Hussein used children as human shields, this group has now taken it to another level. All bets off at this point. I would not put it past locals at this point to band and joint the military and even make their own death squads. A sad day for Thailand indeed.

If you were in a position to advise the government, what course of action would you recommend?

[John K]

If you were in a position to advise the government, what course of action would you recommend?

That is a good question and I would have to give it some thought before I post. Generally when they are running they are not attacking, so an offence my be the best plan of action so perhaps along that line.

[blaze]

If you were in a position to advise the government, what course of action would you recommend?

That is a good question and I would have to give it some thought before I post. Generally when they are running they are not attacking, so an offence my be the best plan of action so perhaps along that line.

A good question? It's the ONLY question. All else is nothing more than venting our own self righteous indignation. We rely on the terrorist like we rely on the the child rapist- to affirm our sense of moral superiority. That's why people read stories about man's inhumanity to etc etc. Me too John. I too feel morally superior to any one who would kill kids. But people do kill children. Call them bad names. Draw unflattering cartoons of them. Make faces at them (from a distance)- but it doesn't help save the kids. What helps is a plan. And a plan starts with a thorough understanding of the context of the problem- not just a vision of the goal.

Edited March 3, 2007 by blaze

[John K]

If you were in a position to advise the government, what course of action would you recommend?

That is a good question and I would have to give it some thought before I post. Generally when they are running they are not attacking, so an offence my be the best plan of action so perhaps along that line.

That's not quite true John. Guerrilas and terroists are capable of running and attacking -at the same time. Now you say an offensive. Why do you suppose the government hasn't thought of that?

Like I said I need to give it some thought, but if I understand correctly they will be fighting the people/ military chasing them and not the soft targets. Is that what you meant?

[ace]

If you were in a position to advise the government, what course of action would you recommend?

That is a good question and I would have to give it some thought before I post. Generally when they are running they are not attacking, so an offence my be the best plan of action so perhaps along that line.

A good question? It's the ONLY question. All else is nothing more than venting our own self righteous indignation. We rely on the terrorist like we rely on the the child rapist- to affirm our sense of moral superiority. That's why people read stories about man's inhumanity to etc etc. Me too John. I too feel morally superior to any one who would kill kids. But people do kill children. Call them bad names. Draw unflattering cartoons of them. Make faces at them (from a distance)- but it doesn't help save the kids. What helps is a plan. And a plan starts with a thorough understanding of the context of the problem- not just a vision of the goal.

As I stated previousley, my plan would be 3-fold in the initial stage:

1. Increased troop numbers

2. Internment of all suspected insurgents,

3. The closure of mosques suspected to be allied to the insurgency.

The context? The context is that the Islamic religion considers us, the infidel, to be inferior to the believer. Some leave it at that, some decide we are so inferior we don't rate as humans and should be wiped out. Though the majority do not go around shooting innocent kids they do offer a support network that is vital to the insurgents, and will quickly send out there own "militia" of women & kids to surround any police station holding suspected insurgents.

Either the government react strongly or the region will be a de-facto Islamic state if it is not already.

Ace

[keda]

ColPyat would call these injured, shot-at school kids collateral damage.

Why were the school kids transported in a military bus?

Which incompetent idiot made the decision to transport school children in a war zone in a military bus, where military has to constantly count with ambushes?

Might be because even kids need to be protected from the peacelovers. Unless of course you are implying the military bus was attacked, not the kids, in line with peaceloving virtues.

[keda]

If you were in a position to advise the government, what course of action would you recommend?

That is a good question and I would have to give it some thought before I post. Generally when they are running they are not attacking, so an offence my be the best plan of action so perhaps along that line.

A good question? It's the ONLY question. All else is nothing more than venting our own self righteous indignation. We rely on the terrorist like we rely on the the child rapist- to affirm our sense of moral superiority. That's why people read stories about man's inhumanity to etc etc. Me too John. I too feel morally superior to any one who would kill kids. But people do kill children. Call them bad names. Draw unflattering cartoons of them. Make faces at them (from a distance)- but it doesn't help save the kids. What helps is a plan. And a plan starts with a thorough understanding of the context of the problem- not just a vision of the goal.

Naturally I wouldn't for a moment suggest there is something inherently wrong with the religion, and certainly not with a predatory pc mod on every fence, but it may just be that at the core of global Islamic terror lies something we Westerners are simply unable to comprehend, due to our more 'civilised' mindset.

[longway]

posts like the above show why ther will never be any peace. there two groups of supremely arrogant <deleted> hel_l bent on proving who is superior, and will drag the rest ofd us down with them.

[John K]

Blaze;

After giving your question some carful thought, and ironically it seems at the same time the military seems to be thinking along the same lines. Drawing from several phases of wisdom form a variety of sources the following has become apparent.

It is obvious trying to deal with them on a civilized level simply does not work. At the moment they have a feeling of superiority and no need to compromise. May more of the good guys are dead than the bad guys.

The method needed is very simply they must feel that they are the hunted and not the hunter. It would mean getting down dirty and nasty with no compromise. The reply to attacks by them must be ruthless and decisive. They must feel that very simply they will die and not be just wounded knowing the military will hunt them down and finish the job. However proper respect for their dead must be given to avoid motivating more to join by insult and disrespect. The people living in the area must be given the means to fight and defended themselves thus reducing the number of soft targets. Even encourage the locals to go on offensive attacks as most attacks are cowardly hit and run.

In every creature there is some primal fear, That fear must be found and exploited. The particular methods to achieve that are not necessary to be discussed with this post, as I am sure there are more expert minds in that field than me that will add in.

In this case removal of the religious belief that they seem to thrive on must be removed or place serious doubt in it’s factuality. Remove the fuel and the fire will fade and die. However with the fanatical beliefs they have that is a very tall order.

There is no easy fix, for big problems you need big medicine.

[keda]

posts like the above show why ther will never be any peace. there two groups of supremely arrogant <deleted> hel_l bent on proving who is superior, and will drag the rest ofd us down with them.

Nothing to do with superiority, though we know and must concede that politically correct fundamentalists are the most superior of all.

There is, however, if you dare pause long enough to think, a marked difference in mindset, values and principles between the so-called civilised West, and the extremists, radicals and other terrorists claiming to be directed by none other than their God, which happens to be Allah and at various times in the past have also been the Lord Jesus Christ, and even Jehovah.

And sorry again but this is where perception creeps in, just as a farang may step back with revulsion as Isaanis tuck into grubs and crickets, does this mean one is superior to the other, or different, and does a difference denote superiority, and if so, which is superior, the one that doesn't eat worms and thinks it's primitive to do so, or the one that knows the nutritional value of worms?

Do not blame me for 911, the WoT, or the daily atrocities committed by a certain religion in the name of their deity, matey; also do not blame for pointing out things that may offend your sensibilities. If it is politically inexpedient to point out that there must be something questionable about a religion whose God proclaims not just its superiority but to that of global domination/destruction, then I suggest you take that up with them. And for God's sake don't tout that chorus about Christian fundamentalists blowing up an abortion clinic.

Also, if you wish to bring racism and other prejudices into the argument, might be a good idea to begin by examining your own moral values.

[blaze]

Blaze;

After giving your question some carful thought, and ironically it seems at the same time the military seems to be thinking along the same lines. Drawing from several phases of wisdom form a variety of sources the following has become apparent.

It is obvious trying to deal with them on a civilized level simply does not work. At the moment they have a feeling of superiority and no need to compromise. May more of the good guys are dead than the bad guys.

The method needed is very simply they must feel that they are the hunted and not the hunter. It would mean getting down dirty and nasty with no compromise. The reply to attacks by them must be ruthless and decisive. They must feel that very simply they will die and not be just wounded knowing the military will hunt them down and finish the job. However proper respect for their dead must be given to avoid motivating more to join by insult and disrespect. The people living in the area must be given the means to fight and defended themselves thus reducing the number of soft targets. Even encourage the locals to go on offensive attacks as most attacks are cowardly hit and run.

In every creature there is some primal fear, That fear must be found and exploited. The particular methods to achieve that are not necessary to be discussed with this post, as I am sure there are more expert minds in that field than me that will add in.

In this case removal of the religious belief that they seem to thrive on must be removed or place serious doubt in it’s factuality. Remove the fuel and the fire will fade and die. However with the fanatical beliefs they have that is a very tall order.

There is no easy fix, for big problems you need big medicine.

"However proper respect for their dead must be given to avoid motivating more to join by insult and disrespect".

Not just for the dead - but also for the living. Including those accused- if not- watch which side those locals still neutral lend their sympathies to. What you are recommending was basically Taksin's approach- and that approach right now is roundly condemned as having re-energized the terrorists.

As far as 'removal of the religious belief the they seem to thrive on'- (which is a non starter) bear in mind that this fight was going on long before the term Jihad had become part of the vocablulary. It began as a separatist movement- and is still a separtist movement- but now it is a separatist movement that finds resonance in the "Islamic struggle' world wide- and that lends it a whole new intensity- but not a new goal.

Even if these people were Jews or Hindus, I suspect that the goal would be the same. Would the methods be the same? Well both of those groups are no strangers to terrorism when it comes to carving out their territory.

[John K]

Well I did not say it would be easy. Saddam Hussain as compared to Thaksin, the approach was about the same with the exception Saddam was much more vicious and ultimately very successful. Now that Saddam is out of the picture, it does not take much to see what he did and the effect. Saddam was not afraid to kill innocent people to get to his target. In Iraq the thought of using a human shield to stop Saddam was as about as effective as holding up a piece of paper. That tactic only works against human compassion, Saddam had none. I don’t know if coming from the same religion has anything to do with it, but I think Thaksin simply did not hit hard enough. You have to be the biggest and meanest kid on the block to deal with them, anything less you see what happens. It is a bit like using explosives. Don’t say it does not work if you charge is too small. You need to use the right amount for the job.

A few of the phrases of wisdom I considered.

Evil thrives on the compassion of man.

To understand you opponent is to become your opponent.

[Parkingtigers]

A few of the phrases of wisdom I considered.

Evil thrives on the compassion of man.

To understand you opponent is to become your opponent.

That is far from wise. Opponents only exist because of lack of understanding, evil only exists because of lack of compassion.

ColPyat is sadly missed.

[John K]

Extremists kill two southern youths

Southern insurgents fired into a group of young people emerging from a stadium and killed two youths in the drive-by shooting on Monday night.

Police said the killings occurred along the main Yala-Betong road of Yala province, and instantly killed the two young men.

Police Superintendent Pol Col Songkiet Watakul said police responding to a call for help found a motorcycle on its side and the two bodies of youths later identified as Rosadee Mahama and Abdulloh Latte, who lived in the area.

Officers rushed a third victim Susee Salamae to Yala Central Hospital, where he was declared in critical condition.

Detectives said the teenagers were leaving an Ayurweng village sports stadium on the main road, when a pickup truck drove alongside and four to five gunmen opened up on them.