'How did things end up like this?' America's newly unemployed grapple with coronavirus fallout

[connda]

It's ok. Average people will be crushed, but the governments of the West will work with their corporate partners to devise ways for banks and corporations to hoover wealth from the ashes of the public's carnage.  
Bonuses for the rich!  Politicians will be compensated well.  Bankruptcy and homelessness for the plebs.

Edited March 21, 2020 by connda

[englishoak]

1 hour ago, samran said:

 

 

Secondly though, it helps distract from their own failings in heeding the warnings of what was coming: a highly contagious virus. 
 

Sure it came from China. But it could have come from Iceland for all that it matters, it would have spread one way or another and we’d be in exactly the same position we are now due to the virulence of this particular bug. 
 

 

Actually no it couldnt have come from Iceland it dosnt have a biolab and no it wouldnt have spread anywhere near the same. Theres a reason nearly all these type of diseases come out of China, and thats the selfish backwards attitude of most Chinese, medieval medicinal beliefs, eating anything they can think of despite not starving anymore with a staggering lack of cleanliness or care and a communist party moronic leadership based on how much financial wealth anyone can amass regardless how its made. And of course the moronic concept of Face and the intolerance or possibly losing it... 

 

300,000 animals a year are used in testing alone in Wuhan.. thats about 900 per week  You do know that a chinese Phd scientist who worked in wuhans biolab level 3  is in jail for accumulating approx $1.5 million by selling lab test animals into the local markets for years in Wuhan.. and thats just one amoral Chinese Phd educated scumbag, there are plenty more im sure.. corruption is a way of life in China for many, like Thailand its how you progress up the ladder. 

 

I do certainly agree most of the rest of the worlds leaders and govs havnt mobilised fast enough but then again the WHO is a total disgrace licking Chinas bum while failing to even visit until March to see the state of the outbreak.. debating  a name for it instead of warning the world and only declaring a pandemic about a week ago.

 

CIA senior selling millions in shares last month, CEOs stepping down in record numbers the first quarter and selling shares, many knew but most just feathered their own nests and sure corruption and selfishness isnt just the behaviour of China but it is endemic there and it IS to blame for this outbreak, no question in my mind about that. 

 

I along with others been shouting and warning here for months how serious its going to be while getting prepared,  had plenty of its just the flu comments, some idiots still do  it. I wish more had listened. 

 

Many govs and leaders havnt so much dropped the ball as completely ignored or abused it until oops.. too late, welcome to the collapse. The coming new financial system and transformation brought about by QE, bailouts repo security stock purchases,gov intervention and support to big corporate under central gov command are literally National socialist policies or if you prefer Economic Fascism... how ironic. 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by englishoak

[Cryingdick]

7 hours ago, connda said:

It's ok. Average people will be crushed, but the governments of the West will work with their corporate partners to devise ways for banks and corporations to hoover wealth from the ashes of the public's carnage.  
Bonuses for the rich!  Politicians will be compensated well.  Bankruptcy and homelessness for the plebs.

 

The "plebs" can't live without the corporations. 99% of the human population aren't fit to be entrepreneurs. As such they must rent their bodies and time to corporations who have the capacity to monetize it. Without the corporation there is no government as there is no tax revenue. The only other way is if the government becomes the corporation. Take a trip to Cuba if you want to see how that works. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Cryingdick

[lannarebirth]

3 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

 

The "plebs" can't live without the corporations. 99% of the human population aren't fit to be entrepreneurs. As such they must rent their bodies and time to corporations who have the capacity to monetize it. Without the corporation there is no government as their is no tax revenue. 

 

Those people you hold in such low regard are the people growing and harvesting the food , delivering goods to those who are "sheltered in place", stocking the shelves, manning the registers, keeping the lights and water on . They still rush to assist people with medical emergencies and put out fires and protect property. You bear a striking resemblance to the "pharma bro" Martin Shkreli. 

[Cryingdick]

5 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Those people you hold in such low regard are the people growing and harvesting the food , delivering goods to those who are "sheltered in place", stocking the shelves, manning the registers, keeping the lights and water on . They still rush to assist people with medical emergencies and put out fires and protect property. You bear a striking resemblance to the "pharma bro" Martin Shkreli. 

 

I am not the one who originally used the disparaging word pleb.  Harvesting with machines made by John Deere, transporting them on roads built by Caterpillar, fueled with gasoline provided by Exxon, registers made by American register corporation, lights made by Phillips, responding to emergencies on phones made by Apple, getting emergency warnings from Everbridge, 

 

The corporations are what makes all this possible otherwise you wouldn't be typing on a computer. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Cryingdick

[lannarebirth]

2 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

 

I am not the one who originally used the disparaging word pleb.  Harvesting with machines made by John Deere, transporting them on roads built by Caterpillar, fueled with gasoline provided by Exxon, registers made by American register corporation, lights made by Phillips, responding to emergencies on phones made by Apple, getting emergency warnings from Everbridge, 

 

The corporations are what makes all this possible otherwise you wouldn't be typing on a computer. 

 

 

 

You have a very skewed view of how the world works. If not for the people there would be none of those corporations. If those corporations you mention disappeared tomorrow, no one would notice.

[Cryingdick]

1 minute ago, lannarebirth said:

 

You have a very skewed view of how the world works. If not for the people there would be none of those corporations. If those corporations you mention disappeared tomorrow, no one would notice.

 

Look around your house. Take out every corporate name you see around you. You wouldn't have much left. Of course corporations don't exist without people. However modern society doesn't exist without the corporation. I think people would notice if we went back to living in caves tomorrow. 

 

So go ahead and turn off your corporate computer, internet connection, electricity and then try reply to me again. Notice any difference?

 

Corporations allow mankind to do what individuals can not. The government doesn't fund the corporations it is the opposite. The corporations drive the world economy. When the corporation is strong the individual does better. Of course life isn't always fair. But if you have any type of skill unless you are a self made entrepreneur you need a corporation to leverage that skill. 

 

If you are a self made type then you are likely to at some point to basically be forced to become a corporation so you can leverage the skills of others. This is simply how the world functions. No without using any corporate product of any kind please make your reply.

 

 

[lannarebirth]

7 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

 

Look around your house. Take out every corporate name you see around you. You wouldn't have much left. Of course corporations don't exist without people. However modern society doesn't exist without the corporation. I think people would notice if we went back to living in caves tomorrow. 

 

So go ahead and turn off your corporate computer, internet connection, electricity and then try reply to me again. Notice any difference?

 

Corporations allow mankind to do what individuals can not. The government doesn't fund the corporations it is the opposite. The corporations drive the world economy. When the corporation is strong the individual does better. Of course life isn't always fair. But if you have any type of skill unless you are a self made entrepreneur you need a corporation to leverage that skill. 

 

If you are a self made type then you are likely to at some point to basically be forced to become a corporation so you can leverage the skills of others. This is simply how the world functions. No without using any corporate product of any kind please make your reply.

 

 

 

It just so happens I am a corporation, but that's solely to limit liability and for tax advantage given how the US tax system is constructed.  I've got nothing against the corporate structure. My criticism is levied more towards "public" corporations that pay nowhere near their fair share in taxes and while at the same time look to spread their own losses, through mismanagement, to non stakeholders.

[Cryingdick]

23 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

It just so happens I am a corporation, but that's solely to limit liability and for tax advantage given how the US tax system is constructed.  I've got nothing against the corporate structure. My criticism is levied more towards "public" corporations that pay nowhere near their fair share in taxes and while at the same time look to spread their own losses, through mismanagement, to non stakeholders.

 

Wasn't trying to argue with you in the first place. Was replying to somebody that seems to label every corporation as evil. Too many people who couldn't survive without corporations blame everything in their life on the man keeping them down.

 

So that aside I was listening to Cuban speak on the biz news the other day. He was saying if you need the gov to bail you out you should lose your right to buyback stocks forever. Not just temporarily but for good. He was also saying they should have to offer something like this... not sure I remember it exactly but the baggage handler that makes $30,000 a year or whatever gets an equal amount in shares. Every employee gets to participate in the wealth that the compounding brings to the very last janitor. 

 

 

His point was nobody will ever get ahead just renting their time without using some sort of leverage. The devil would be in the details but it is an interesting idea. If we could start making more people stock holders and they could benefit. Maybe the shares wouldn't vest until five years of leaving the company if you quit or a certain age. No cashing out early as that would mean stupid people wouldn't get the benefit. Every paycheck you get shows your whole shares and fractional shares.

 

Would this damage the stock? I am thinking it could be like buybacks because the shares are restricted for a length of time. So instead of buying back shares to simply retire them they are bought back to put into the employee accounts. They are still off the market for 5 years. So hopefully the employee would benefit from a rising price until their own shares vesting and the torch gets passed on. 

 

Once you have proved as a corporation you have failed in every metric and go to the government, your job is no longer to profit (you have already showed that is not with in your capability)  but provide the best for those you hire. These formerly failed companies at that point would have people lined up to work for them.

 

Even modest salaries can produce results if investing like this is started right from high school. Your first job you get at McDonald's after working through college, you now have maybe $25K for a down payment pay down student etc. Your very next job does the same thing. 

 

I know in my explanation maybe there are holes. However I like the idea. It's sort of like something Yang had in mind but doesn't raise taxes, is only  for the employed, uses money that would have been used for buybacks and makes more people shareholders of what he called the "American dividend". 

 

If you are only renting your time by the hour the only help that is currently given can only be temporary in nature. 

 

That was lengthier then intended. LOL 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Cryingdick said:

I know in my explanation maybe there are holes. However I like the idea.

 

I and very many others like the idea too.

 

Consider this, rather than viewing people’s criticism of ‘Corporations’ as being full blown anti-business, anti-capitalism, add your own arguments and the Cuban guys views into the discussion and it becomes crystal clear that it’s not anti corporation/capitalism, rather people are sick of the rapacious behavior that is much of modern corporations.

 

This President handed the corporate world over a $trillion of tax breaks, (let’s put aside the politics of that for a moment. That money was almost entirely used to buy back shares and for take over of other businesses - it was directed towards

make CEO’s and very large stock holders. Gains by small stock holders were a minor trickle down.

 

Millions of Americans working in corporations also have a first hand experience of their compensation packages being stripped out in favor of pushing profits up the food chain. Hugely profitable corporations are not cutting staff compensation to remain competitive, they are doing it for profit to the CEO and major share holders.

 

Add on top of that the financial power these corporations wield over politicians and politics.

 

I love the goodies and convenience the corporate world enable, but I want corporations to be treated as services to society, not as society, politics and laws bent to what corporations want.

 

Repeal ‘citizens united’ and remove from corporations the rights they now hold equal to those of living human beings.

 

 

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, Cryingdick said:

 

Wasn't trying to argue with you in the first place. Was replying to somebody that seems to label every corporation as evil. Too many people who couldn't survive without corporations blame everything in their life on the man keeping them down.

 

So that aside I was listening to Cuban speak on the biz news the other day. He was saying if you need the gov to bail you out you should lose your right to buyback stocks forever. Not just temporarily but for good. He was also saying they should have to offer something like this... not sure I remember it exactly but the baggage handler that makes $30,000 a year or whatever gets an equal amount in shares. Every employee gets to participate in the wealth that the compounding brings to the very last janitor. 

 

 

His point was nobody will ever get ahead just renting their time without using some sort of leverage. The devil would be in the details but it is an interesting idea. If we could start making more people stock holders and they could benefit. Maybe the shares wouldn't vest until five years of leaving the company if you quit or a certain age. No cashing out early as that would mean stupid people wouldn't get the benefit. Every paycheck you get shows your whole shares and fractional shares.

 

Would this damage the stock? I am thinking it could be like buybacks because the shares are restricted for a length of time. So instead of buying back shares to simply retire them they are bought back to put into the employee accounts. They are still off the market for 5 years. So hopefully the employee would benefit from a rising price until their own shares vesting and the torch gets passed on. 

 

Once you have proved as a corporation you have failed in every metric and go to the government, your job is no longer to profit (you have already showed that is not with in your capability)  but provide the best for those you hire. These formerly failed companies at that point would have people lined up to work for them.

 

Even modest salaries can produce results if investing like this is started right from high school. Your first job you get at McDonald's after working through college, you now have maybe $25K for a down payment pay down student etc. Your very next job does the same thing. 

 

I know in my explanation maybe there are holes. However I like the idea. It's sort of like something Yang had in mind but doesn't raise taxes, is only  for the employed, uses money that would have been used for buybacks and makes more people shareholders of what he called the "American dividend". 

 

If you are only renting your time by the hour the only help that is currently given can only be temporary in nature. 

 

That was lengthier then intended. LOL 

 

 

 

 

Many years ago during the period when I thought I was too smart for college, I bought a share in a worker owned company. It was the best run company I have ever had any affiliation with and employees/owners were making 100% more in wages than comparable workers at competing companies.

[metisdead]

Some troll posts and replies have been removed. 

[gk10002000]

How did things end up like this?  They ended up like this because the government officials are panic reacting in the near term.  The long term effects of their actions will be worst than anything the virus would do.  The economic hardships, cancellation of educations, future job prospects, people's 401k or other investments lost so much value right when many retirees need the money, lost businesses can not be recovered.  So many people and Americans live on the edge on blue collar incomes, have kids, health insurance prices are ridiculous and now with no penalty for not having Obamacare plans, millions of people are not paying for insurance, and now if an illness or injury happens they will not be working and have no way of paying for treatment.

[justin case]

better have some savings...

 

thai people are prepared, right ...

[gk10002000]

On 3/19/2020 at 9:15 PM, Nyezhov said:

You are supposed to say thank you when some one gives you money

We were given money twice in my working history.  During George Senior Bush was once as I recall and the next year the tax figures were changed and we all basically paid back the money.  The USA is already running a trillion dollar debt, so just where is this money coming from?  will it be tax free?  Will it be reportable on the IRS 1040 as miscellaneous income?

[Cryingdick]

3 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Many years ago during the period when I thought I was too smart for college, I bought a share in a worker owned company. It was the best run company I have ever had any affiliation with and employees/owners were making 100% more in wages than comparable workers at competing companies.

 

There is a grocery chain called Hy-vee exactly like that. Fair prices, beautiful stores, has a gas station and car wash. Generous discounts on gas, even on craft beer. I filled my car many times for well free.

 

It wasn't always the cheapest place but you went there because the atmosphere was so good. Always decked out with hard ciders for Halloween with pumpkins. Christmas buy a ham and get a turkey for free. Staff always very helpful and friendly.

 

They got rid of their left overs by offering generous fuel points. Also they would give you points for the car wash which was the best for 50 miles. They did service front to back and man I love that place. It didn't work out if you bought something you wouldn't use to get fuel points and you had to watch it but my beer habit often times meant my gas was free. I never shopped anywhere else if I could help it.

 

Good selection and great decor. You can see a good model a mile away. 

[bristolboy]

And now the Trump administration is trying to use the emergency to further the right wing agenda of destroying unions. 

Days later, the Federal Labor Relations Authority published a little-noticed rule that would make it easier for federal workers to stop the withholding of their union dues, saying it would increase wages at a time of economic crisis. Everett Kelley, the national president of the American Federation of Government Employees, called the proposed rule “just another in a series of activist steps the F.L.R.A. has taken to advance this administration’s goal of busting unions.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/us/politics/trump-virus-conservative-policies.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

 

[Crazy Alex]

How did things end up like that? The Chinese government chose to conceal a very contagious virus outbreak. Thank god Trump restricted travel from China early on, or we might be suffering like Italy or other countries that didn't take decisive action. And to think, Trump was attacked for making such a bold move.

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

And now the Trump administration is trying to use the emergency to further the right wing agenda of destroying unions. 

Days later, the Federal Labor Relations Authority published a little-noticed rule that would make it easier for federal workers to stop the withholding of their union dues, saying it would increase wages at a time of economic crisis. Everett Kelley, the national president of the American Federation of Government Employees, called the proposed rule “just another in a series of activist steps the F.L.R.A. has taken to advance this administration’s goal of busting unions.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/us/politics/trump-virus-conservative-policies.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

 

Sounds like a great move. I'd rather see workers with more money than union fat cats. Why are you more concerned with union fat cats and thugs?

[Lacessit]

15 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

 

I am not the one who originally used the disparaging word pleb.  Harvesting with machines made by John Deere, transporting them on roads built by Caterpillar, fueled with gasoline provided by Exxon, registers made by American register corporation, lights made by Phillips, responding to emergencies on phones made by Apple, getting emergency warnings from Everbridge, 

 

The corporations are what makes all this possible otherwise you wouldn't be typing on a computer. 

 

 

Last time I looked, more machines were made by Kubota, Philips is being crowded out by Samsung, Sharp and Xiaomi, and most computers are made in Taiwan. Try to keep up. The world is changing, and it's not just coronavirus.

Where is the American car industry? Licking the boots of the Japanese and Koreans, awaiting the Chinese onslaught.

[rvaviator]

On 3/21/2020 at 1:04 AM, lannarebirth said:

Shouldn't the poorest people be getting the most money? I don't understand the logic of this Bill.

Why ?  The poor only need to get a new cardboard box to live in ... The rich have so many more expenses to worry about ! 

[rvaviator]

On 3/21/2020 at 2:45 PM, simple1 said:

Interesting observations. I disagree trump is only a 'symptom'. trump had the opportunity to be a change agent for good which IMO he has failed to be.

I would say he had no reason to change as that never was in his playbook ......

 

Every country has the government it deserves.

Joseph de Maistre

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

Sounds like a great move. I'd rather see workers with more money than union fat cats. Why are you more concerned with union fat cats and thugs?

Because in countries where unions are weak, the workers have better wages and benefits? Really? 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

Sounds like a great move. I'd rather see workers with more money than union fat cats. Why are you more concerned with union fat cats and thugs?

"New evidence shows that unions played a major role in reducing income inequality in the United States in the decades when organized labor was strong.

But it also demonstrates that the decline in union power since the 1960s — which may be exacerbated as a result of a recent Supreme Court decision — has contributed to the widening gap between rich and poor.

The new insights come from a working paper, “Unions and Inequality Over the Twentieth Century: New Evidence from Survey Data,” by four economists: Henry Farber, Daniel Herbst and Ilyana Kuziemko of Princeton, and Suresh Naidu of Columbia."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/06/business/labor-unions-income-inequality.html

[Tug]

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

Sounds like a great move. I'd rather see workers with more money than union fat cats. Why are you more concerned with union fat cats and thugs?

Ho those horrible unions oh my oh my that collective bargaining forcing corporations to pay a living wage and healthcare oh noooooo oh and that horrible middle class oh noooo people sending their kids to school oh the horrors everyone must live paycheck to pay check must ban those pesky pensions if you think I’m beeing sarcastic you are 100% correct I’m a proud union member I’ve never met a union (thug) the union changed my life for the better through a living wage pension and health benefits I think instead of attacking unions we would be better served forcing wealthy corporations to take proper care of the people who make their existence possible 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Tug

[samran]

3 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

How did things end up like that? The Chinese government chose to conceal a very contagious virus outbreak. Thank god Trump restricted travel from China early on, or we might be suffering like Italy or other countries that didn't take decisive action. And to think, Trump was attacked for making such a bold move.

Oh don’t worry, his closing the border was more about kicking the Chinese when they were down rather than any meaningful response. 

 

Donnie’s dithering since then has meant the US will be a world leader in this in about a week, given that cases double about every three days.

 

No doubt the Don will take credit for the ‘beautiful’ and ‘huge’ numbers when it happens in few days time...

 

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by samran

[bristolboy]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Last time I looked, more machines were made by Kubota, Philips is being crowded out by Samsung, Sharp and Xiaomi, and most computers are made in Taiwan. Try to keep up. The world is changing, and it's not just coronavirus.

Where is the American car industry? Licking the boots of the Japanese and Koreans, awaiting the Chinese onslaught.

I looked up Kubota vs. Caterpillar and it's a lot smaller.

https://craft.co/kubota/competitors

And for Cryingdick's benefit, Philips is a Dutch company.

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Because in countries where unions are weak, the workers have better wages and benefits? Really? 

If the unions are good at one thing, it's making sure their leadership is fine. Beyond that, the use for unions has come and gone. Now they are simply money laundering operations that protect losers from losing their jobs. As for your "new evidence", laughable. New propaganda is more like it.

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, Tug said:

Ho those horrible unions oh my oh my that collective bargaining forcing corporations to pay a living wage and healthcare oh noooooo oh and that horrible middle class oh noooo people sending their kids to school oh the horrors everyone must live paycheck to pay check must ban those pesky pensions if you think I’m beeing sarcastic you are 100% correct I’m a proud union member I’ve never met a union (thug) the union changed my life for the better through a living wage pension and health benefits I think instead of attacking unions we would be better served forcing wealthy corporations to take proper care of the people who make their existence possible 

Wow, I don't recall saying unions are horrible. As for living paycheck to paycheck, that is mostly a matter of how one handles their personal finances. The poor get poorer because they keep doing stupid <deleted> that makes them poor.

[Lacessit]

9 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I looked up Kubota vs. Caterpillar and it's a lot smaller.

https://craft.co/kubota/competitors

And for Cryingdick's benefit, Philips is a Dutch company.

I stand corrected. In Thailand, I see a lot of Kubota and not much Caterpillar.

It's quite ironic Japanese products are now regarded as the most reliable and best quality. W. Edwards Deming is a demigod in Japan. He was ignored in his own country, the USA. He taught the Japanese statistical quality control principles they still use today.