Insurgents Burn Female Villager Alive

[canuckamuck]

Are you joking?

Hat Yai is not within the area, and neither is Nakhorn Sri Thammarat.

The insurgency is in Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat, and a few districts of Songkhla. There are huge activities by the army, especially in the red zone areas. Some districts of Yala have a curfew from 8pm to 4am, there are roadblocks everywhere, with barbed wire and the works, there are Humvees and other armored vehicles all over.

Army from all over the country is in one year rotation in the three Changwats, Special Warfare Command and Border Police is stationed permanently in large numbers, and so are Rangers.

The insurgent activity not limited to the area you describe. The fact that they have established a red zone is more activity than I was led to believe. But I see multiple road blocks and soldiers near every Thai border; this is not a major escalation of military presence this is everyday border defenses. I have only been across the border into Malaysia once; I found it no different than any other. But you obviously have a vested interest in this conflict, so you obviously have a better understanding of the geography and the military placement. I will go there in a month or two; I guess I will see for myself.

[Scott]

Thaigoon: Yes, it is telling. It has to do with how sensitive some of these things can be, at least to the ones that think (or are) oppressed. Actually, I was very shocked at that time, since what they were talking about was not published in newspapers and this pre-dated the internet (at least in that part of the world). I can only suspect that it was the type of thing that was maybe preached in some mosques about the treatment of their brothers.

These people had obviously heard about this in a vacuum of other information because they didn't know most of Thailand was Buddhist etc. etc.

My point is that in that part of the world there probably are people with money who would be more than willing to help their 'oppressed' brothers & sisters. They no doubt funded Islamic schools etc. Probably funded overseas studies for others. All of which has acted to exacerbate the situation.

[ColPyat]

No one is claiming that it's safe everywhere down there, but it's still not a civil war as some on here want others to believe. That's the point why I posted the pictures.

No, it is not a civil war down there yet. But it moves in that direction, unfortunately. And yes, i hope very much that i am wrong, or that the government will find an answer, a strategy that finally works, on how to pacify the area. I don't have one.

[ColPyat]

Are you joking?

Hat Yai is not within the area, and neither is Nakhorn Sri Thammarat.

The insurgency is in Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat, and a few districts of Songkhla. There are huge activities by the army, especially in the red zone areas. Some districts of Yala have a curfew from 8pm to 4am, there are roadblocks everywhere, with barbed wire and the works, there are Humvees and other armored vehicles all over.

Army from all over the country is in one year rotation in the three Changwats, Special Warfare Command and Border Police is stationed permanently in large numbers, and so are Rangers.

The insurgent activity not limited to the area you describe. The fact that they have established a red zone is more activity than I was led to believe. But I see multiple road blocks and soldiers near every Thai border; this is not a major escalation of military presence this is everyday border defenses. I have only been across the border into Malaysia once; I found it no different than any other. But you obviously have a vested interest in this conflict, so you obviously have a better understanding of the geography and the military placement. I will go there in a month or two; I guess I will see for myself.

Red zone areas have been in place since years. Yes, the insurgency is exactly in the areas i have posted, only Hat Yai has seen a few bombings, but it is not part of the insurgency.

[Plus]

There's no other party to negotiate with like in Aceh, insurgents do not have any representatives yet.

Compare them with pirate DVD producers - they are intellegent, organised, technologically sophisticated, work in small cells that share the same tactics, and there's no "the one" who controls them, no party to negotiate with.

You can crack down on individual cells, clear out some particular locations, bust a factory, maybe get the guys who produce subtitles, but you'll never stop it.

Maybe it's because the govt is fighting against the ideas, not the people. In the South it's the idea of independent, islamic Pattani, in Bangkok it's the idea of "there's lots of easy money in piracy".

[ThaiGoon]

Thaigoon: Yes, it is telling. It has to do with how sensitive some of these things can be, at least to the ones that think (or are) oppressed. Actually, I was very shocked at that time, since what they were talking about was not published in newspapers and this pre-dated the internet (at least in that part of the world). I can only suspect that it was the type of thing that was maybe preached in some mosques about the treatment of their brothers.

These people had obviously heard about this in a vacuum of other information because they didn't know most of Thailand was Buddhist etc. etc.

My point is that in that part of the world there probably are people with money who would be more than willing to help their 'oppressed' brothers & sisters. They no doubt funded Islamic schools etc. Probably funded overseas studies for others. All of which has acted to exacerbate the situation.

I went to school in one of those areas for three years. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I never witnessed or heard of the so called "oppression" by the Thai gov't perpetrated on Muslims. Several of my classmates were Muslims. We were all pretty happy and living in harmony. If any of the so called oppression or injustices did take place, I'm certain that it was the act of retaliations against previous attacks by the insurgents. And don't get me wrong. I'm not making any excuse for any gov't officials who might have mistreated Thai Muslims. I'm just saying that this insurgency didn't start because of the so called oppression from the central Thai gov't on Thai Muslims. It's all BS. They just wanna get independence and must have been fueled (and financially supported) by their Muslim brothers from outside Thailand. Again, to claim that the oppression on Thai Muslims started this whole mess is just BS. Believe me.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

Also Scott, it's pretty interesting that the poeple whom you talked to felt so passionate for their brothers' cause in Thailand that even after they heard of all the oppression stories taking place there, they still wouldn't bother to look up a map to see where Thailand is. And yeah, you would believe stories about Thailand from people who don't even know where Thailand is too. That's prefectly logical.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[canuckamuck]

Red zone areas have been in place since years. Yes, the insurgency is exactly in the areas i have posted, only Hat Yai has seen a few bombings, but it is not part of the insurgency.

The bombings in Hat Yai were just a bit of sport then eh?

[Scott]

Thaigoon: You seem to think that I either agreed with these folks or think they had correct information. I don't. I had been here a number of years and had no idea there were problems in the south. Everything had been pretty quiet. I had been to the South and had no problem and saw no problems.

These people were being brainwashed. They knew I had lived in Thailand and that I like the country very much. They couldn't understand how I could, when they were treating Muslims so badly.

The kind of one-sided information being given to them is what I was concerned about.

This isn't a shot at Thailand, it's a shot at fundamentalists who distort and misuse information. If they were at work that long ago and when there were few problems, imagine what they are doing now.

[dog412]

and do you think that the separatists will settle for a solution that does not include full separation , given the vengeance with which they are pursuing this cause .

there is no compromise with these people.

In Aceh these sort of separatists have compromised, and there the two parties have ended the war with a compromise. There is a clear precedent for such a compromise.

For such a compromise it needs both parties willing to do that. So far though both sides have not yet shown to be ready to do that, not just the separatists. Prem, for example has refused the recommendation of the NRC to ease the tensions by allowing the use of Yawi as a second official language in the three provinces.

the problem for me concerning the Aceh "compromise", is that from what i understand, Banda Aceh has become the first city in Indonesia to implement sharia, which i find just about as oppressive as anything one's government could dream up. switching from one form to another form of oppression doesn't get one very far. governments have at least a much better ability to change than religion does.

[patongpanda]

Islam is a religion of peace when correctly followed, same as Christian and Buddhism or any other religion.

Oh, come off it!

Have you actually read any of the Koran? Have you ever studied the history of Islam??

It has always been a cult of submit or be killed.

[DragonQuest]

this is perfect example why i dont have any muslim friends.

Edited April 12, 2007 by DragonQuest

[suiging]

All Politics/Religion aside, you have to feel for the poor folk of whatever creed having to live in an area where on average four IED's indiscriminately go off every day.......tragic.

[ColPyat]

I went to school in one of those areas for three years. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I never witnessed or heard of the so called "oppression" by the Thai gov't perpetrated on Muslims.

That's very good that you did not see any of that and can assure us. The only problem there is that you are saying the exact opposite to what every ranking officer in the Thai army says down south. They do admit that the root cause of the problem was primarily the neglect of the government.

Such as that from the rank of Nai Ampur up there was no civil servants from the Muslim population, and so on in almost all sectors of life. Such as the still ongoing problems of the use of Yawi in official affairs.

Maybe you should actualize your knowledge about the problems down south a bit along current lines of knowledge, and not just extrapolate from your years at school, a time when usually not much knowledge and experience is acquired about complex and larger political contexts.

[ColPyat]

Red zone areas have been in place since years. Yes, the insurgency is exactly in the areas i have posted, only Hat Yai has seen a few bombings, but it is not part of the insurgency.

The bombings in Hat Yai were just a bit of sport then eh?

Can't you see the difference between very rare bombings in Hat Yai, and constant attacks of all sorts in the three provinces?

[Mai Krap]

Your last image though is rather telling - Special Warfare Command soldiers (with the red berets) giving a haircut to kids in one of their hearts and minds operations. Note the soldier in the back (with helmet) giving back up in case of an attack.

He might have been giving back up, or he just wanted to be in the picture, or he was on his way to grab some lunch, or he was just looking at his friend cutting the kid's hair. Yeah, it's pretty telling.

Easy for you to say while you sit on your arse in America protected by the police with my tax dollars and while we Americans fend for ourselves in your beloved homeland that cannot support you. If somebody offed you tonight there would be a big investigation but when a American gets murdered here its good old "Mai Pen Rai, Farang!" Personally I don't even think your Thai, maybe just some old foolish troll who likes to stir the pot?

[ColPyat]

the problem for me concerning the Aceh "compromise", is that from what i understand, Banda Aceh has become the first city in Indonesia to implement sharia, which i find just about as oppressive as anything one's government could dream up. switching from one form to another form of oppression doesn't get one very far. governments have at least a much better ability to change than religion does.

Well, that is their decision, and not ours to make. If they want to life under sharia, you don't need to live or travel there.

And secondly - it is a very light form of sharia, not like Taleban style sharia.

[Mai Krap]

this is perfect example why i dont have any muslim friends.

No, Muslims don't live in trailer parks, thats why you don't know any.

[ColPyat]

this is perfect example why i dont have any muslim friends.

Well, up to you.

I went to school with Muslims, worked in factories with Muslims, and still have many Muslim friends. They are not a breed apart, they are normal people, as normal as anybody else.

The only difference with practicing Muslims is that they don't drink alcohol, which, IMHO, is very nice as i don't need to be constantly on guard because some tosser might not be able to hold his liquor and turn then aggressive.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ColPyat

[MiG16]

colpyat,

i wouldnt be so quick to brush aside thaigoon's comments. infact I would say the same...there is no policy or law that discriminate against the muslim minority in the south. Ive lived here all my life, and as far as I recall the exceptions to big muslim in high up places have admittedly been the governor, and the judges in court. but by that same definition I also do not see that a certain quota has been reserved for any other races.

on the other hand, there are police officials who are muslims, there are people working in district offices who are muslims, and for quite sometime the MPs have been muslims.

in terms of the language, yes true that Javi is not an official language, but failing having the written documents, people are able to access the facilities and communicate with officials using the local dialect, since..as said...officials working in the offices are themselves muslims. however i should add that is seems to be a little known fact to people outside the area that for many years, the TV channel 11 has allocated certain hours of the day where the programmes aired in the region are in the local javi dialect. they even have the muslim call for prayers aired on TV.

have the police and army abused the people in the past? thats probable...but I would say it was done exactly in same vein that the practice exist elsewhere in the country. and not because the population down here is muslims. take a look around the police station and try to see how many of them are muslims.

I will not claim to have the answers to whats causing the situation, but can only offer the above input for some thoughts.

[ThaiGoon]

Such as that from the rank of Nai Ampur up there was no civil servants from the Muslim population, and so on in almost all sectors of life. Such as the still ongoing problems of the use of Yawi in official affairs.

That's a form of oppression that's significant enough for some Thai Muslims to do what they have done? Interesting.

[taxexile]

colpyat

And secondly - it is a very light form of sharia, not like Taleban style sharia.

yeah , right.

this , from the TIMES ONLINE of dec 17/2006.

Tsunami survivors given the lash

Michael Sheridan and Dewi Loveard, Banda Aceh

Disaster donations help Islamic vigilante force impose punishments on women

WHEN people around the world sent millions of pounds to help the stricken Indonesian province of Aceh after the Boxing Day tsunami of 2004, few could have imagined that their money would end up subsidising the lashing of women in public.

But militant Islamists have since imposed sharia law in Aceh and have cornered Indonesian government funds to organise a moral vigilante force that harasses women and stages frequent displays of humiliation and state-sanctioned violence.

International aid workers and Indonesian women’s organisations are now expressing dismay that the flow of foreign cash for reconstruction has allowed the government to spend scarce money on a new bureaucracy and religious police to enforce puritan laws, such as the compulsory wearing of headscarves.

Some say there are more “sharia police” than regular police on the local government payroll and that many of them are aggressive young men.

“Who are these sharia police?” demanded Nurjannah Ismail, a lecturer at Aceh’s Ar-Raniri University. “They are men who, most of the time, are trying to send the message that their position is higher than women.”

In one town, Lhokseumawe, the authorities are even planning to impose a curfew on women — a move that social workers warn will force tsunami widows to quit night-time jobs as food sellers or waitresses and could drive them into prostitution.

None of that daunts the enthusiasts for sharia, who gather in droves whenever there is an opportunity to glory in its enforcement.

The scene is always the same, and it has been enacted at least 140 times in squares and market places in front of mosques, from the towering minarets of Banda Aceh, the provincial capital, to humble village places of worship.

The transgressor can be a man accused of gambling or drinking alcohol. But if it is a woman guilty of wearing “improper” clothing or being caught in proximity to a man, there is a particular ritual to the punishment.

She is dressed in white robes and veiled. Policemen escort her up on to a stage erected before a jeering crowd, which, witnesses say, is usually almost exclusively male.

Forced to kneel, the woman waits while a masked man ascends the platform. He is carrying a cane with a curved handle designed to give the inflictor of God’s punishment a better grip. From the loudspeakers, a man’s voice sonorously recites the appropriate religious chastisement. Then he begins to count. With each number, the cane descends with a vicious lash.

According to witnesses, male onlookers often roar in delight and hurl pious imprecations at the victims, working themselves up to a pitch of excitement.

In one collective punishment last summer, four women denounced for gambling were given between six and 10 lashes. One passed out as she was dragged off the stage.

The vast majority of Indonesia’s 220m people oppose sharia law and practise a more tolerant version of the Islamic faith. The country’s secular constitution enjoins harmony and voters have consistently rejected calls for an Islamic state.

But audiences throughout the Indonesian archipelago watched the televised flogging of a man convicted of drinking beer. He collapsed after seven of the 40 prescribed strokes and officials said he would receive the remaining 33 when he recovered.

The example of Aceh has attracted fundamentalists from elsewhere in Indonesia, who see it as a blueprint for their own localities.

The irony is that sharia was first introduced into Aceh as part of a package of measures that ultimately succeeded in making peace in the long-running guerrilla war between the conservative, independence-minded Acehnese and the Indonesian state.

The 2004 tsunami, which killed 170,000 Indonesians, devastated the whole northern coast of Sumatra and shocked both sides in the conflict into reaching a deal after 30 years of fighting that had claimed 15,000 lives. It is, so far, a success story. The separatist guerrillas, known as GAM, have decommissioned most of their weapons and the Indonesian army has withdrawn most of its combat troops.

Last Monday the province held the first democratic elections in its history and early returns suggested that voters had elected as governor Irwandi Yusuf, a former rebel spokesman who escaped from jail after the tsunami.

Last Thursday European peace monitors withdrew, leaving an uneasy air of political tension as all sides awaited the final results.

The former guerrillas accuse the government of bolstering the Islamists and using sharia as a method of weakening their consistent demand for a progressive, democratic Aceh, ruled by its own people. “They are exploiting the religious conviction of many Acehnese to manipulate them,” wrote Aguswandi, a human rights activist, in The Jakarta Post.

Aguswandi, who like many Indonesians uses just one name, said the tactic could misfire. “The use of religion as a political tool to pacify the population or as political bribery is a dangerous move. It is like setting a timebomb. When it goes off it could unleash an era of harsh, intolerant and conservative Islam,” he wrote.

For some women, that era is already here. Fatimah, a human rights worker, was arrested after a seminar at a hotel in Banda Aceh when sharia police burst in to find her without a proper headscarf while chatting in the corridor to a male colleague.

Accused of “khalwat”, a vague term that covers proximity between unmarried men and women, she was dragged off to a police station, where she was detained, deprived of sleep and questioned for three days before being released without charge. “It was a nightmare that I will not be able to forget for the rest of my life,” she said.

For international donors, who gave generously to end the nightmare of the tsunami, the next few months will pose hard choices. “Nobody intended our aid to subsidise this,” said one United Nations official.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

well , if thats a mild form of sharia , then god help us all .

because once the mild form is instated there is no turning back , and sooner or later a more fervent form will be introduced , as these bullying ex terrorist jailbird community leaders force their will on people.

7th century ..... here we come.

Edited April 12, 2007 by taxexile

[ColPyat]

colpyat,

i wouldnt be so quick to brush aside thaigoon's comments. infact I would say the same...there is no policy or law that discriminate against the muslim minority in the south. Ive lived here all my life, and as far as I recall the exceptions to big muslim in high up places have admittedly been the governor, and the judges in court. but by that same definition I also do not see that a certain quota has been reserved for any other races.

on the other hand, there are police officials who are muslims, there are people working in district offices who are muslims, and for quite sometime the MPs have been muslims.

in terms of the language, yes true that Javi is not an official language, but failing having the written documents, people are able to access the facilities and communicate with officials using the local dialect, since..as said...officials working in the offices are themselves muslims. however i should add that is seems to be a little known fact to people outside the area that for many years, the TV channel 11 has allocated certain hours of the day where the programmes aired in the region are in the local javi dialect. they even have the muslim call for prayers aired on TV.

have the police and army abused the people in the past? thats probable...but I would say it was done exactly in same vein that the practice exist elsewhere in the country. and not because the population down here is muslims. take a look around the police station and try to see how many of them are muslims.

I will not claim to have the answers to whats causing the situation, but can only offer the above input for some thoughts.

There was no official policy of oppression, but it was relayed to me that local Muslims (not Thai Muslims - that is entirely different) did not reach the higher ranks there within the three provinces, as the government always had a clear mistrust because of the independence feelings of the local populations. Villagers who have official business need translators, etc in order to conduct official business at the Ampur.

And yes, many of the claims of oppression are exaggerated, but that is why it is so sensitive down there. And yes, it has existed, and still does all over the country. The difference, and danger in the South is that the 80% Muslim population always had a much closer cultural affinity to the people of Malaysia, and saw/see that those in Malaysia live in a country far higher developed than Thailand.

[ThaiGoon]

colpyat,

i wouldnt be so quick to brush aside thaigoon's comments. infact I would say the same...there is no policy or law that discriminate against the muslim minority in the south. Ive lived here all my life, and as far as I recall the exceptions to big muslim in high up places have admittedly been the governor, and the judges in court. but by that same definition I also do not see that a certain quota has been reserved for any other races.

on the other hand, there are police officials who are muslims, there are people working in district offices who are muslims, and for quite sometime the MPs have been muslims.

in terms of the language, yes true that Javi is not an official language, but failing having the written documents, people are able to access the facilities and communicate with officials using the local dialect, since..as said...officials working in the offices are themselves muslims. however i should add that is seems to be a little known fact to people outside the area that for many years, the TV channel 11 has allocated certain hours of the day where the programmes aired in the region are in the local javi dialect. they even have the muslim call for prayers aired on TV.

have the police and army abused the people in the past? thats probable...but I would say it was done exactly in same vein that the practice exist elsewhere in the country. and not because the population down here is muslims. take a look around the police station and try to see how many of them are muslims.

I will not claim to have the answers to whats causing the situation, but can only offer the above input for some thoughts.

Exactly MiG16, and at the school I went to, in every building, there's a special praying room for Muslim students. There were also religious schools where pretty much the only language that was spoken was Javi. From those areas, Muslims also regularly got elected as their representatives for the House. I never sensed that there was any oppression. In fact, all my Muslim friends seemed to already have integreated themselves well into the rest of "Thai" society too. I actually was quite perplexed when this insurgency started.

And Mai Krap, I don't know what kind of crap you are on.

[ColPyat]

well , if thats a mild form of sharia , then god help us all .

because once the mild form is instated there is no turning back , and sooner or later a more fervent form will be introduced , as these bullying ex terrorist jailbird community leaders force their will on people.

7th century ..... here we come.

Don't see any hacked off hands or women stoned to death. Anyhow, the world would be a better place if we would stop interfering with other's business constantly, and in the process making things much worse. It would be prudent to let the Acenese sort out their own issues the way how they want it, and not just get up in arms over short newspaper articles who often are not exactly reliable.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ColPyat

[ColPyat]

I actually was quite perplexed when this insurgency started.

Then i would advise you to read Alexander Horstman's paper 'Violence, Subversion and Creativity in the Thai-Malaysian Borderland'.

It might give you a few interesting perspectives on the Southern problems, and the Thai state in general.

[Mid]

I actually was quite perplexed when this insurgency started.

Then i would advise you to read Alexander Horstman's paper 'Violence, Subversion and Creativity in the Thai-Malaysian Borderland'.

It might give you a few interesting perspectives on the Southern problems, and the Thai state in general.

with all due respect ,

neither of you gentlemen were alive when the insurgency started ......................................

[ColPyat]

I actually was quite perplexed when this insurgency started.

Then i would advise you to read Alexander Horstman's paper 'Violence, Subversion and Creativity in the Thai-Malaysian Borderland'.

It might give you a few interesting perspectives on the Southern problems, and the Thai state in general.

with all due respect ,

neither of you gentlemen were alive when the insurgency started ......................................

That doesn't mean though that we should be barred from reading research into this subject, or from having a look ourselves.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ColPyat

[taxexile]

Don't see any hacked off hands or women stoned to death

not yet , but its only a matter of time.

Anyhow, the world would be a better place if we would stop interfering with other's business constantly, and in the process making things much worse.

agreed

It would be prudent to let the Acenese sort out their own issues the way how they want it,

are we sure thats how the majority want it ?

and not just get up in arms over short newspaper articles who often are not exactly reliable

i would say that that article is reliable , those stories have been widely reported and filmed.

[Mid]

That doesn't mean though that we should be barred from reading research into this subject, or from having a look ourselves.

was simply an observation , and perhaps a gentle reminder not to discount history .

cheers

mid