Future of English Language Teachers ?

[skippybangkok]

Just wondering if anyone has any heads up what's happening ? I saw an announcement from the Minister about bringing in Filippino's teachers , what's happening to Western contracts ? 

[uncleP]

They will be sacked for bad grammar. ????

[Puchaiyank]

How's your Mandarin Chinese? 

[SteveK]

If Filipinos will work for buttons, that's probably going to be the way forward.  

[wmlc]

The answer is nothing. 10,000 foreign teachers will be hired directly by the Ministry of Education. The process is under way now. 

[Hanaguma]

A lot of Philipinos here in Japan too. They most often are working in elementary schools as Assistant Language Teachers. Reason one being they work cheaper than native speakers. Reason two is they are often frankly better with kids than some of the crusty old geriatrics that are here. Standard pay for a month is around 250,000 yen ( 75,000 baht?) but the Phils will do the job for 60,000 baht.

 

Above that level, there are fewer and fewer. My university has one Philipino adjunct lecturer, but she has an MEd from Canada and is functionally bilingual.  Just a trace of an accent when she gets excited or nervous. 

[jingjai9]

Perhaps for the sake of good business non- native speakers will become the new norm as Thai English has evolved over the decades. The priority will be on successful communicaton, rather than native English speaking emulation. In spoken English, pronunciation and syntax are becoming less of a priority, for example, the head of WHO. Should Princeton University have terminated Albert Einstein or recommended accent reduction courses as a requirement for retaining employment?

 

The pandemic has forced governments and businesses to consider new business models. In these trying times, the bottom line will often take precedence over  ideals and current standards.

[sensei]

Accent is not everything and it should not be the gauge used to measure success.

Singaporeans speak with a rather distinct accent but one has to respect their success over other countries in SE Asia.

I have personally met a number of NES who can't spell words correctly. 

[Ventenio]

Here is what people FAIL to realize.....

 

1.  Non-natives USUALLY (always exceptions, but in my experience over 90%) have never lived in America or in the UK.  This means they won't give their students any idea of the real culture.  Culture is important in Thailand, so you don't learn Thai from someone living in Russia who has never lived in Thailand.  

 

2.  Confidence.   A non-native speaker has no idea how a native will react in certain situations, so they can't really prepare their students nearly as well.  They have their "cookie cutter" answers which only makes the students look stupid.

 

3.  Accent is acceptable if you have #1.

 

4.  Slang is important.  Local language, if you will.  A NATIVE speaker, when speaking freely, will allow students to HEAR how a native speaker really talks with their friends.  A non-native will generally speak in their language, ruining their credibility.  

 

5.  Culture.  Americans are interesting because America is massive and offers quite a bit.  Students like to hear about what it's like to live there, and to hear about different cities.  A teacher from Hong Kong who has never been to America won't give answers that really matter.

 

6.  More culture.  Food, sports, movies, etc.......Oh, you want a hot dog with peppers, cole slaw, mustard and onions?  Chicago, for sure.  In New York, you will get some chili with a lot more grease.  Trust me, kids love to hear about what Americans do.   Only natives can do this properly.  

 

7.  I do care if you write loose instead of lose; however, I've never seen a non-native teacher write everything perfectly.  yea, spelling is super important IN the classroom, but there is no way you would hire a non-native because of better spelling.  no way.  These kids can google spelling.

 

8.  Pitch.  Natives simply speak much different, and kids MUST get used to how natives talk.  Their pitch, tone, SPEED...SPEED...SPEED....and hear from natives.  

 

I don't want to hear Russians speak Thai, even if it's correct.  

 

Note:  I'm talking about ENGLISH teachers, not Maths or Science.  Non-natives can be great teachers, but I've never seen a good non-native English teacher.  

[Relocated]

6 minutes ago, sensei said:

Accent is not everything and it should not be the gauge used to measure success.

Spoken English is entirely different classification from composition or comprehension. 

Only way to acquire formal comprehension and composition is through college level class from English PhD. 

English composition is more of learning logical thinking and presentation skill because of typical English language structure. 

The capability of Philippine teachers will be significantly limited to simple spoken English. 

Not only their Tagalog style accent.    

[peterpop]

I have a Chinese friend who is opening a bilingual English/ Chinese school soon in Chiang Mai.  He is going to need a lot of English teachers.  In conversation recently he emphasised that the 'Native English' speakers are wanted not for their accent or grammar but for the cultural style of teaching.  He wants to distance his students from the Asian style of instruction.  I am sure you know what I mean.  This means that well trained western teachers who are aware of the value of their attitude in the classroom are still valued above locals.

[XGM]

2 hours ago, jingjai9 said:

In these trying times, the bottom line will often take precedence over  ideals and current standards.

The bottom line was always the main consideration. The better schools don't hire native English speakers due to ideals but because that's what parents want to have. Strictly business - it is one of the clear expectations of the customers.

 

As for the reasons, accent or pronunciation are just a few. Non native English speaker will generally have a limited vocabulary in comparison to a well educated native English teacher. There will be a difference in richness of language, using idioms for example will not come naturally for them. Even their understanding of right and wrong grammar will not be instinctive but programmed.

Specifically with Philippine teachers (and other Asians, as mentioned above), their overall approach to teaching will be different. For example, less encouragement of independent thinking vs. more memorizing and indoctrination, less freedom in class to ask questions.

[salo]

1 hour ago, Ventenio said:

Here is what people FAIL to realize.....

 

1.  Non-natives USUALLY (always exceptions, but in my experience over 90%) have never lived in America or in the UK.  This means they won't give their students any idea of the real culture.  Culture is important in Thailand, so you don't learn Thai from someone living in Russia who has never lived in Thailand.  

 

2.  Confidence.   A non-native speaker has no idea how a native will react in certain situations, so they can't really prepare their students nearly as well.  They have their "cookie cutter" answers which only makes the students look stupid.

 

3.  Accent is acceptable if you have #1.

 

4.  Slang is important.  Local language, if you will.  A NATIVE speaker, when speaking freely, will allow students to HEAR how a native speaker really talks with their friends.  A non-native will generally speak in their language, ruining their credibility.  

 

5.  Culture.  Americans are interesting because America is massive and offers quite a bit.  Students like to hear about what it's like to live there, and to hear about different cities.  A teacher from Hong Kong who has never been to America won't give answers that really matter.

 

6.  More culture.  Food, sports, movies, etc.......Oh, you want a hot dog with peppers, cole slaw, mustard and onions?  Chicago, for sure.  In New York, you will get some chili with a lot more grease.  Trust me, kids love to hear about what Americans do.   Only natives can do this properly.  

 

7.  I do care if you write loose instead of lose; however, I've never seen a non-native teacher write everything perfectly.  yea, spelling is super important IN the classroom, but there is no way you would hire a non-native because of better spelling.  no way.  These kids can google spelling.

 

8.  Pitch.  Natives simply speak much different, and kids MUST get used to how natives talk.  Their pitch, tone, SPEED...SPEED...SPEED....and hear from natives.  

 

I don't want to hear Russians speak Thai, even if it's correct.  

 

Note:  I'm talking about ENGLISH teachers, not Maths or Science.  Non-natives can be great teachers, but I've never seen a good non-native English teacher.  

It is quite amusing, reading about the importance of teaching American culture. What for culture? I think the last thing we need in this world is a spread of "American Culture". 

According to cultural aspects, students should be taught every year from teachers with different backgrounds. This year from an African, next year from an Indian, Filipino, European, etc. Than they learn about culture. 

[Alex2554]

2 hours ago, Ventenio said:

Here is what people FAIL to realize.....

 

1.  Non-natives USUALLY (always exceptions, but in my experience over 90%) have never lived in America or in the UK.  This means they won't give their students any idea of the real culture.  Culture is important in Thailand, so you don't learn Thai from someone living in Russia who has never lived in Thailand.  

 

2.  Confidence.   A non-native speaker has no idea how a native will react in certain situations, so they can't really prepare their students nearly as well.  They have their "cookie cutter" answers which only makes the students look stupid.

 

3.  Accent is acceptable if you have #1.

 

4.  Slang is important.  Local language, if you will.  A NATIVE speaker, when speaking freely, will allow students to HEAR how a native speaker really talks with their friends.  A non-native will generally speak in their language, ruining their credibility.  

 

5.  Culture.  Americans are interesting because America is massive and offers quite a bit.  Students like to hear about what it's like to live there, and to hear about different cities.  A teacher from Hong Kong who has never been to America won't give answers that really matter.

 

6.  More culture.  Food, sports, movies, etc.......Oh, you want a hot dog with peppers, cole slaw, mustard and onions?  Chicago, for sure.  In New York, you will get some chili with a lot more grease.  Trust me, kids love to hear about what Americans do.   Only natives can do this properly.  

 

7.  I do care if you write loose instead of lose; however, I've never seen a non-native teacher write everything perfectly.  yea, spelling is super important IN the classroom, but there is no way you would hire a non-native because of better spelling.  no way.  These kids can google spelling.

 

8.  Pitch.  Natives simply speak much different, and kids MUST get used to how natives talk.  Their pitch, tone, SPEED...SPEED...SPEED....and hear from natives.  

 

I don't want to hear Russians speak Thai, even if it's correct.  

 

Note:  I'm talking about ENGLISH teachers, not Maths or Science.  Non-natives can be great teachers, but I've never seen a good non-native English teacher.  

The vast majority of students study English as a global language, not the language spoken in the UK or the USA

[thecyclist]

Yes, absolutely it's not all about language but culture, mindset, way of relating. So, since the US of A is gradually turned into a Trumpland dynasty we will have to teach students the tremendous, never been anything like it before way of talking, 'reasoning', relating 

Ditto for Borisland. 

[unblocktheplanet]

3 hours ago, salo said:

It is quite amusing, reading about the importance of teaching American culture.

Culture? You can cure that with Lysol!

[Scott Tracy]

I guess it depends on the goals of the c!ients. They will be the ones who set the requirements.

Do native English speakers prepare their students as well as or better than non-native speakers?

 

Let's look at other countries: Netherlands, Sweden. in my experience as an international aviation standards auditor, and trainer, their aviation and general English is superb. France, comprehension is good, accents can be a challenge. Italy, also good, with accents. Both in Rome and in Milan.

Germany, excellent English skills. As in Spain, Madrid and Barcelona.

 

Some would say this is to be expected as aviation's language is English. This is true, but they speak their own languages to each other, as well as English to those foreigners they have dealings with.

In my view, comprehension (understanding) on both sides is what matters, not accents. If you or they cannot understand the question or answer, repeat and/or rephrase. Speak slowly, simply and clearly. Do not use big words and do not use acronyms and location specific shortform. 

 

 

 

 

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

4 hours ago, salo said:

It is quite amusing, reading about the importance of teaching American culture.

I agree. I don't like to see much Western influence in the textbooks or curriculum. It tends to reflect the aims of US or UK publishers, who seek tying the language to these alone. I try to make it more about what's going in the students' own lives and areas, which they can then use to immediately begin producing English. I get more thoughtful, passionate responses to "Tell me what you think and care about", rather than "What was in the article about the Statue of Liberty?"

 

But now here's the problem. In past few years I've been teaching, once kids find out I'm American, I get flooded with certain questions. What's it like in Las Vegas or New York, the places they've seen in movies and on TV? What's up with American cops shooting everyone, and Donald Trump's tweets, the things they see in the news? What are my favorite NBA teams? What's going on with so and so player? What about some WWE wrestler? With Kobe Bryant's helicopter crash, that's what everyone was talking about, and we ended up making that the day's lesson.

 

I wasn't "shoving America down their throats", as non-American English teachers love to accuse us of. Haha. They've demanded it from me.

 

Thus, I try my best to steer away from it as much as possible, and talk about more relevant, more inclusive topics. But there's only so much I can fight the demand. Perhaps if something could be done about the influence of the American, and rest of Western media, which I'd definitely have no problem with.

[Ventenio]

3 hours ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Thus, I try my best to steer away from it as much as possible, and talk about more relevant, more inclusive topics.

Of course I will disagree, unless you are talking about college kids.

 

Why do I disagree?  Our goal as ESL Teachers (not international teachers, I can't comment on them) is to keep the kids EXCITED and MOTIVATED to keep learning.  So make them happy when you can, don't shut them down?  Why be negative at all?  

 

Teacher, I want to learn Thai.  Can you tell me about BKK?

 

Shut up, kid, now learn your classifiers.

 

Soon I will not like this teacher and not enjoy learning their language.  

 

Oh, your parents love America?  Oh, you are happy when I tell you about NYC?  Whatever....just do your homework!!!!  

 

You are a "diplomat" from America, you really should absolutely, 100%, love America.  This is the culture.  If you don't, well........you might be in a very difficult job.  There is no other country on the planet that offers more, when you consider every metric that a Thai family values.  There really isn't.  Money can be made, wealth can be attained, everything can happen......

 

kids loved me, teachers not so much.  I had money, didn't need the salary at all, was more confident than anyone and ALREADY lived a successful life.  I'd work a few months and then get a tourist visa and a few jumps and call it a year.  

 

Of course I'll go back to America.  America has everything.  If somebody wants to be negative, just look in the mirror....i'm sure there is something behind the negativity that runs deep.  

 

my 2 cents

[Number 6]

It's all going online. Big tech is going to swoop in with materials and the industry as you know it will vanish. Exciting innovative and interactive curriculum. It won't be a stellar experience but compared to the average TEFL teacher it will actually be a better learning experience. It's not just EFL expect a complete paradigm shift in education in the next ten years. This isn't wizardry MOE has been experimenting with distance learning for years. All they need is some high tech company to deliver.

 

The most likely scanario in Thailand students will receive lessons over digital broadcast, cable and internet. Respond by mobile on networks as dated as 2G.

 

The rural, semiskilled teachers will be first to go. This isn't just a TEFL thing. It's all subjects and teachers. The Thai government sees this as a way to resolve teacher shortages and bloated pay and pensions. It's obvious to everyone the rural teachers are such a failure anything is better. Distance learning will be better. Rural schools don't need foreign teachers. It's a huge waste of money.

 

The hiring of 10k teachers will never happen.

 

BTW MOE Indicators and strands clearly call for native speakers to impart language and culture. Example: Grades 10-12 Strand 2 F2.1, F2.2. Thais are not the least bit interested in Filipino, South African or Nigerian cultures.

 

[Number 6]

5 hours ago, Scott Tracy said:

comprehension (understanding) on both sides is what matters, not accents. If you or they cannot understand the question or answer, repeat and/or rephrase.

I entirely agree with this statement. IMO there's nothing wrong with the *Thai accent*. The issue is when the person cannot be understood - the first time. Heavy or sing-song accents are not good to model ones language on. Whether that's Glasgow, New Orleans or Manila. The hands down preference in East Asia is N American English. A person with that can be recognized as having any sort of accent should never teach pronunciation.

[ratcatcher]

5 hours ago, thecyclist said:

Yes, absolutely it's not all about language but culture, mindset, way of relating. So, since the US of A is gradually turned into a Trumpland dynasty we will have to teach students the tremendous, never been anything like it before way of talking, 'reasoning', relating 

Ditto for Borisland. 

Except Boris will be quoting Aeschylus, Aristotle & Homer. Quite bigly, of course.

[Maxwadd]

A Filipina I know was teaching English in Thailand last year

Most of the other Thai teachers were teaching only 5 or 6 units but gave her 17 units to teach 

Just saying... 

[Number 6]

9 hours ago, salo said:

It is quite amusing, reading about the importance of teaching American culture. What for culture? I think the last thing we need in this world is a spread of "American Culture". 

According to cultural aspects, students should be taught every year from teachers with different backgrounds. This year from an African, next year from an Indian, Filipino, European, etc. Than they learn about culture. 

Best you read up on the MOE indicators because while American culture is not explicitly stated it is most certainly implied. Nowhere does the MOE indicate interest in cultures from non native (English) speaking counties. Especially those mentioned by you.

 

This is just some ugly hack opinion. You know nothing of this subject. Read the indicators.  

 

There are absolutely amazing things that have come out of the United States. Somehow Africa rates but America doesn't. That's just plain ignorant. Hope you don't teach.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

On 5/22/2020 at 7:41 PM, Ventenio said:

i'm sure there is something behind the negativity that runs deep.

Reread my post, and do please attempt to be more civil on this forum.

 

See the entire paragraph where I discussed all the questions about America I got from my students. I've answered them all. See where we made the entire lesson about Kobe Bryant's helicopter crash. As I said, they've demanded America from me, and I gave it.

 

However, the purpose of my post was in response to the previous posts, saying there is too much America in the curriculum. And that is why I said when the demand gets to be too much, I steer away from it. I never told them to shut up about America and get back to grammar. But the grammar did eventually have to be addressed, as we do have a syllabus to follow, and so address it I did.

[Scott]

Racist post removed.  

 

[mommysboy]

Future! Not good is it?

 

You'll probably be good for 30k per month.