How Do You Think Los Would Be Different Today?

[bendix]

Oh yea....China. I did leave them out. Perhaps their rigid social control helped them to be around a lot longer than anyone else.

I'm not sure about their history but what kind of control did they practice before Communism and how was it similiar to what they became after Communism?

Maybe the transition was not as dramatic as most westerners seem to think.

Spot on. There was a similarly authoritarian leader in the form of an emperor. For Emperor, read Mao. For courtiers, read party apparachnik. For the imperial army, read the Red Guard

Anyway, regardless of the type of regime in China, this had little bearing on the vast majority of people's lives. For the vast majority of Chinese people (those living in villages), the communist revolution was either irrelevant or unknown of. Their lives were ruled by harvests, family and tradition. When authority intruded it was usually in the form of warlords or village leaders. Not much was inherently different after 1949.

[Prakanong]

"the communist revolution was either irrelevant or unknown of. Their lives were ruled by harvests, family and tradition. When authority intruded it was usually in the form of warlords or village leaders. Not much was inherently different after 1949. "

Until when?

Although having said that the village I was in in Isaan thought exactly the same at their powow the day after the coup in September except that they thought they would have to wait for the tarmaced road the local TRT had promised them a lot longer ;-)

Edit to make the above more clear

The locals had a bit of a powow to discuss what had happened - decided it would not affect them or change their lives and things would be exactly the same except waiting longer for the road

Most of them supported Taksin but a lot of them did not like him for "Selling Thai company to farangs (sic)"

Edited May 9, 2007 by Prakanong

[bendix]

"the communist revolution was either irrelevant or unknown of. Their lives were ruled by harvests, family and tradition. When authority intruded it was usually in the form of warlords or village leaders. Not much was inherently different after 1949. "

Until when?

Dunno for sure but there's anecdotal evidence suggesting that much of the population didnt even know there had been a revolution for a couple of decades after it happened. And why would they? Televisions etc were hardly staples in any Chinese households (let alone the inner country) until the late 70s early 80s.

A bit different than Isaan today, I guess.

[Prakanong]

"the communist revolution was either irrelevant or unknown of. Their lives were ruled by harvests, family and tradition. When authority intruded it was usually in the form of warlords or village leaders. Not much was inherently different after 1949. "

Until when?

Dunno for sure but there's anecdotal evidence suggesting that much of the population didnt even know there had been a revolution for a couple of decades after it happened. And why would they? Televisions etc were hardly staples in any Chinese households (let alone the inner country) until the late 70s early 80s.

A bit different than Isaan today, I guess.

I can see news not getting to them for a while but the communisit party cadres and appointments in the village would have arrived at some point.

I have never really studied China at this point so do not have a clue.

[cm-happy]

Let me ask this question. How different would Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos be today if the US hadn't bombed the living sh!t out of them all those years? How different would Central America be today if the US hadn't interfered in their affairs? How about the Middle East? How different would the USA be if the Pilgrims/Colonists who reached the east coast had integrated peacefully with the native inhabitants, who had been there there for centuries already, instead of massacring them? Something tells me it's a chain reaction and that possibly Thailand might be different if the US military hadn't come. One reason for the close US military involvement in Thailand was/is the close ties between the Monarchy of Thailand and the US.

A bit off topic but.. on the same tokin.

How different would US be if they had not kicked the Brit asses out. Likewise how diffeent would the world be if many other countries did not do the same to the Brits, kick their asses out.

Whats left of the once mighty empire?? Bermuda, Falklands, N. Ireland

seems the sun had set on the British Empire, when it once never set

[PeaceBlondie]

Personal insults will result in strict punishment. Stay on topic. Thank you.

[Mighty Mouse]

All this talk about the Brits, Vietnamese, Chinese....

...but what about us !!!!

[farang prince]

All this talk about the Brits, Vietnamese, Chinese....

...but what about us !!!!

Well, after centuries of killing each other in tribal warfare, you now own Indian casinos and you are screwing the white man the way he once screwed you.

[chanchao]

> any country which combines free market economics with rigid social control and

> lack of political freedoms is closer to facism than communism.

Right up until the word fascism I was sure you were going to say 'the US Republican Party'.

[richard10365]

All this talk about the Brits, Vietnamese, Chinese....

...but what about us !!!!

These guys don't count because they are not christians and not white.

[Pepe']

Please re-read the original post slowly and carefully. Then try again

[dumspero]

Who can know for sure?

But some things seem pretty clear in all this. Governments are necessary evils. They are all bad; some less bad than others.

After WWII, two powerful countries emerged that were nominally "communist," the USSR and China, and then they went on campaigns to expand their control over other countries. These two countries, during this period, were 'more bad.' The US, during this same period, was 'less bad,' but of course it was still trying to exert a softer form of control over other countries as well.

The USSR and China favored state controlled economies and more government control over the people. The US favored incrementally less state control and less government control over the people. The first two engaged in relatively more human rights abuses, the latter country in relatively fewer abuses.

You can look around the globe and see which side prevailed. Yes, what were "wars" when considered individually were lost by the US, but in the larger struggle that was going on those wars were simply lost battles.

So while I'm no apologist for the many things the US has done wrong and still does wrong, let's keep this in perspective.

To the point, I agree with those that believe if the years of war had not taken place in Vietnam, they would have taken place elsewhere in the region. That is, there was this huge expansion force being exerted (in partial concert) by the USSR and China, and the US and its allies were going to oppose that at some time, at least to slow it until the larger system sort of collapsed under its own weight. So I think the US intervention in Vietnam may have saved Thailand from becoming a years-long battleground, and then there was the development that occurred in the NE that may have lessened the tension between the Issan rural poor and the government (which kind of tension derails many, many developing countries, as we may all recognize).

Pepe- you were in the US and a Vietnamese was VC? Or was that in Vietnam or elsewhere? I'm sure there must be some, but far more common as you know for immigrants in the US to have been on the losing side--and their families of course are also often forgotten as victims.

Re American Indians (the last poll I saw showed the majority prefer this term to 'native Americans'): what about the fact that tribes had warred with each other and pushed them out of their territories for ages before the US went there? Doesn't excuse the evils of the US in that regard, but perhaps is part of a fair consideration of the issue (e.g. Dances with Wolves--never mentions the Sioux had just gotten the horses a few generations earlier from the Spanish and then used them to force out the true native Dakotans because they wanted that better land for themselves).

[richard10365]

Please re-read the original post slowly and carefully. Then try again

Pepe, these responses are spot on target. The American influence with other cultures such as the indians give an indication on their influence here.

So the Americans built a few roads and bridges here. I would hardly say it had a significant impact on their culture. America was using Thailand to fight their war in Vietnam. It would only make sence that they try to give back to Thailand.

There is more of an impact from the French in Laos than there is from the Americans in Thailand. Sure it's possible the Communist could have taken over, but as we're seeing from other Asian cultures with Communism, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

So, I think if America was more involved with Thailand it would be worse. This is based on their involvement with countries like Vietnam.

Although, South Korea seems to be a success, the north is in bad shape. So it kinda negates what happened to the south.

The U.S. has not done anything that would not have happened naturally at the present date.

[farang prince]

I guess you are talking about the great war the US decided they should partake in for the better of man kind. And LOST should I add.

And even now Vietnam is thriving, even though its a communist republic.

---------------------------

The war as we all no was not great, it was a horror. I know. I was there.

So your sarcasm is not appreciated. Definitely from me.

When I returned to the US on my first leave I refused to go back. But that's a story for another day.

On a side note, I've been getting my hair cut a small Vietnamese owned barber shop in my neighborhood for years.

Last November just before leaving for LOS I was in getting my pre-flight #2 buzz cut. I was early. Just he and I in the shop.

He commented that I had on a 24 carat gold chain. I showed him the Buddha I was wearing. I told him my mother in-law in BKK had given it to me.

I asked him to stop for a minute. The short version is I said "I want to apologize to you for what we did to your people and your country."

I said, "I was personally involved and know that I am personally responsible for the deaths of many Vietnamese people."

I said, "I don't know what else to say and I guess this is a weird conversation but we were so wrong and I just want to tell you how sorry

I am and how awful I feel when I think back to those days."

He went to a drawer and pulled out an old black and white picture of himself with about seven of his buddies. As he shed a tear he told he they were VC marines.

Then he told me they were all killed except him. I said, "Some of my friends were killed too."

I shook his hand and said, "It wasn't our time, we're here now together

so we have some karma together."

He smiled again with a tear and said, "yes we have our karma."

We have never spoken of it again.

I did two tours in The Nam from 67-69 with the 1st Cav. A group of my old buddies are planning on returning to Vietnam in September of this year to mark the 40th year of going in country. This will be a hard trip for me. At first I was not going to go. I have more than enough memories of Vietnam and there aren't that many that are pleasant. But my Thai partner kept encouraging me to go. I guess she instinctively knew what you experienced with your barber...that it is time for closure. I'll be bringing some of the ashes of two of my platoon members. We are going to scatter them in the Perfume River at Hue. I read a lot of crap on Thai Visa from Yankee haters. None of it means a thing. We are who we are...the good, the bad and the ugly. And life rolls on....

[Pepe']

Who can know for sure?

Pepe- you were in the US

p---My tour of duty was in Vietnam 1970 to 1972

and a Vietnamese was VC?

p--- Yes. He has been my barber for about seven years here in San Diego. This conversation took place last year in November.

Or was that in Vietnam or elsewhere? I'm sure there must be some, but far more common as you know for immigrants in the US to have been on the losing side--and their families of course are also often forgotten as victims.

p---Actually I had the opportunity to express regret and apologize in a similar fashion. Once to a colleague who is a medical doctor and once to a student.

I truly regret my involvement in that war. We did horrific things ...

[PeaceBlondie]

Just personally, I think the American Indian experience is off topic, but I'll bite anyway: there is an entire chapter in The Missing Peace by Juhnke and Hunter on PEACEFUL native tribes in the USA. We simply cannot paint all the indigenous tribes as bloodthirsty savages, nor all the communist nations as ravaging hordes, nor the Western countries as one extreme or the other.

Was it beneficial to Thailand's self-sufficiency, or to Buddhist morality, to have all those American air bases here, and to have all the horny GI's getting their rocks off in Thailand? To this day, does Thailand need to host Cobra Gold? The USA no longer has military bases here.

One more point about necessary evils: morally, evil is never necessary.

[dumspero]

Pepe- And then many treated you all horrifically when you returned. I'm sorry for that and many of us honor you all for your service in that war (regardless of how it was fought or why--that wasn't your doing).

At least with the current war where opinion is so mixed the people are doing a better job standing behind the troops.

Cheers, I'm off to happy hour and will toast you.

[dumspero]

PB- just saw your post. If you're talking about my post--I'm not painting things all one way or the other, and I hope that's clear from my post.

I'm not even talking about "communist" countries, generally, or capitalist countries, generally. Those are just silly labels as I took pains to demonstrate with "incrementally" less and more control, etc. But there was a larger struggle between the so-called super powers at the time, and I do believe the US was incrementally less bad than the other side. Do you truly believe otherwise? Purges, Hungaria, ad nauseum outweigh, I believe, the abuses in Vietnam, the bombings in Laos, etc.

Evil is necessarily present because it is an aspect of human nature. That's why we need laws and government, which since they limit freedom, are a necessary evil to me.

Cobra Gold is part of a larger picture. Thais still train on many bases in the US, as far as I know. Cooperation between less bad countries is a good thing, no?

[dumspero]

PB- sorry, this is just stuck in my craw, if that's how it's spelled.

Your comment about Thai GI's getting their rocks off comes off as kinda judgmental. You might note all young guys like to get their rocks off, and it's not like there wasn't a prostitution market there ready to evolve to meet the new demand. What do you even mean by that?

[richard10365]

PB- sorry, this is just stuck in my craw, if that's how it's spelled.

Your comment about Thai GI's getting their rocks off comes off as kinda judgmental. You might note all young guys like to get their rocks off, and it's not like there wasn't a prostitution market there ready to evolve to meet the new demand. What do you even mean by that?

To engage in sexual activities with a prostitute for money is against the UCMJ. (Uniformed Code of Military Justice). Troops can be fined, restricted to quarters, and reduced in rank. If they choose a court hearing, they can be inprisioned and the act would be looked at as a felony.

Having this exercise in Pattaya is setting the troops up for failure. But I think the military commanders are willing to let things slide for Cobra Gold.

I think we're starting to get our threads crossed.

Edited May 9, 2007 by richard10365

[GuestHouse]

The biggest single impact the US had on Thailand (and incidentally the whole of Asia) was the defeat by the United States of Japan in WWII.

All else pales into insignificance.

[farang prince]

PB- sorry, this is just stuck in my craw, if that's how it's spelled.

Your comment about Thai GI's getting their rocks off comes off as kinda judgmental. You might note all young guys like to get their rocks off, and it's not like there wasn't a prostitution market there ready to evolve to meet the new demand. What do you even mean by that?

To engage in sexual activities with a prostitute for money is against the UCMJ. (Uniformed Code of Military Justice). Troops can be fined, restricted to quarters, and reduced in rank. If they choose a court hearing, they can be inprisioned and the act would be looked at as a felony.

Having this exercise in Pattaya is setting the troops up for failure. But I think the military commanders are willing to let things slide for Cobra Gold.

The military exercise isn't in Pattaya. The only one getting their exercise in Pattaya is you, hero.

[ColPyat]

I read a lot of crap on Thai Visa from Yankee haters. None of it means a thing. We are who we are...the good, the bad and the ugly. And life rolls on....

It's always a road downhill when personal experiences get mixed up with political and historical analyzes.

What you have to understand is that when we "yankee haters" have serious problems with US foreign policy then and now, we do not attack your personal experiences (unless your real name is McNamara or Kissinger ).

It sometimes is difficult to separate traumatic and/or extreme personal experiences from a dry analyzes, and that is why i am not really interested to get any further involved in this thread topic here.

In and after a war everybody has his own load to carry and sort out. Getting politics involved in that is not a good idea.

But understand that you are not an island, as much as our "yankee hater" attitude might insult you, we non-Americans are also insulted by attitudes displayed by some Americans here.

[PeaceBlondie]

PB- sorry, this is just stuck in my craw, if that's how it's spelled.

Your comment about Thai GI's getting their rocks off comes off as kinda judgmental. You might note all young guys like to get their rocks off, and it's not like there wasn't a prostitution market there ready to evolve to meet the new demand. What do you even mean by that?

dumspero, first of all, my prior post was not a direct response to any person, although I was responding to the comment about 'necessary evil' although you might have spoken of 'the lesser of two evils.' Just one of my standard comments that include, "Is it a lesser evil to kill or rape somebody else's daughter instead of one's own?"

We all make judgmental comments; it's called opinion. Let's see what my remark was: "Was it beneficial to Thailand's self-sufficiency, or to Buddhist morality, to have all those American air bases here, and to have all the horny GI's getting their rocks off in Thailand?" I said it as an honest question for discussion, although it may appear rhetorical, with the obvious answer being "NO." The last phrase referred to the military campaign custom of taking a nation's young men off to distant lands, away from their wives or girlfriends, where they practice what is generally termed adultery and fornication (or whoremongering). In the cases of both the long war in Vietnam, and Operation Cobra Gold, the R&R was often done in the whore houses of Thailand. I asked, was it beneficial to Thailand? I think not.

I'm not totally opposed to whoremongering, but I don't defend its practice much. I am totally opposed to warmongering, though. I say, support the troops by sending them home to their rightful lovers.

[farang prince]

I read a lot of crap on Thai Visa from Yankee haters. None of it means a thing. We are who we are...the good, the bad and the ugly. And life rolls on....

It's always a road downhill when personal experiences get mixed up with political and historical analyzes.

What you have to understand is that when we "yankee haters" have serious problems with US foreign policy then and now, we do not attack your personal experiences (unless your real name is McNamara or Kissinger ).

It sometimes is difficult to separate traumatic and/or extreme personal experiences from a dry analyzes, and that is why i am not really interested to get any further involved in this thread topic here.

In and after a war everybody has his own load to carry and sort out. Getting politics involved in that is not a good idea.

But understand that you are not an island, as much as our "yankee hater" attitude might insult you, we non-Americans are also insulted by attitudes displayed by some Americans here.

And what are your bona fides that give you any credibility at all? That you are a Canadian who lives on Vancouver Island? Yipee.

[Prakanong]

I read a lot of crap on Thai Visa from Yankee haters. None of it means a thing. We are who we are...the good, the bad and the ugly. And life rolls on....

It's always a road downhill when personal experiences get mixed up with political and historical analyzes.

What you have to understand is that when we "yankee haters" have serious problems with US foreign policy then and now, we do not attack your personal experiences (unless your real name is McNamara or Kissinger ).

It sometimes is difficult to separate traumatic and/or extreme personal experiences from a dry analyzes, and that is why i am not really interested to get any further involved in this thread topic here.

In and after a war everybody has his own load to carry and sort out. Getting politics involved in that is not a good idea.

But understand that you are not an island, as much as our "yankee hater" attitude might insult you, we non-Americans are also insulted by attitudes displayed by some Americans here.

And what are your bona fides that give you any credibility at all? That you are a Canadian who lives on Vancouver Island? Yipee.

This is funny

"That you are a Canadian who lives on Vancouver Island? Yipee."

[ColPyat]

And what are your bona fides that give you any credibility at all? That you are a Canadian who lives on Vancouver Island? Yipee.

Very funny, indeed.

I don't understand what one's nationality or abode has to to do with "credibility", but if it makes any difference to you: I am European, living in Thailand. Which in turn makes me human, and that gives me enough "bona fides" to voice my views. I am above 18 as well.

[Prakanong]

And what are your bona fides that give you any credibility at all? That you are a Canadian who lives on Vancouver Island? Yipee.

Very funny, indeed.

I don't understand what one's nationality or abode has to to do with "credibility", but if it makes any difference to you: I am European, living in Thailand. Which in turn makes me human, and that gives me enough "bona fides" to voice my views. I am above 18 as well.

But if you were not in the "Nam' you can not talk about it ;-))

People would be pretty short on things to talk about if they could only talk about personal experiences though would they not (not to mention boring - ever been to Washington Square)!

[farang prince]

And what are your bona fides that give you any credibility at all? That you are a Canadian who lives on Vancouver Island? Yipee.

Very funny, indeed.

I don't understand what one's nationality or abode has to to do with "credibility", but if it makes any difference to you: I am European, living in Thailand. Which in turn makes me human, and that gives me enough "bona fides" to voice my views. I am above 18 as well.

Congratulations on being European. I'm sure that means something in Europe. And the fact that you are human and over 18 is impressive. It's great that Thai Visa gives us expats an opportunity to voice our views. But when you talk about Vietnam, you better bring some experience to the table. Otherwise, all you bring is hot air...which is something that a lot of Europeans really are experts at.

[Prakanong]

"But when you talk about Vietnam, you better bring some experience to the table"

So to extrapolate this then????????

Its an argument full of holes and you know it.

To say any more would be superfluous.

In your world view the universities would be empty and civilisation going backwards.