Culture Questions

[tikitak]

Hi Ladies,

I've been doing lots of reading trying to understand Thai culture.

The interest has been triggered ? by a dear friend (male) living in bkk at the moment and inviting me and my partner to come visit.

I really am not attempting to be a smart arse, or hurt anyones feelings, but I would love to gain a better insight to Thai culture from a womans perspective.

A lot of what ive been reading online in regards to female life re seems to reflect a western country in the 50's before the feminist movement i.e Cooking, cleaning, 'giving him a martini after work and bringing him his pipe and slippers' sort of extreme.. this stuff has to be a generalisation and not be a true reflection of all Thai women..right?

But, are articles like 'how to be a good Thai wife - which include things like 'keeping your true feelings inside' and getting up before your husbane to make him breakfast and 'always telling him you love all the time through the day' and kind of.. acting like a maid and cook and worst of all just fake - for a man really true, or just BS online blah?

Are all Thai women really that old fashioned? And I'm not just talking about the extreme other end of the scale like bar girls.. All though I am still confused when I read western guys writing My Thai girlfriend.. if they are talking about a prostitute.. or a real girlfriend.. in which case why mention they are thai.. what difference does it make?

And then all these western guys having a go at western girls online? I just don't understand that.. It makes me think they maybe do expect to have a wife that acts like the women of the time period they grew up in.. Or that they have just been really hurt and/or rejected and are really bitter.

I went to school with loads of asian people from different backgrounds, but had 1 really close Thai girlfriend through highschool and she said Thai people aren't really that tolerant at all, they just pretend to be and will say nasty things behind your back and that this even happened to her for being a western (Aussie) Thai.. But I also think maybe it was confusing for her to go back to visit distant family that has been brought up so differently to her having experienced such a different environment maybe??

Anyway she's telling me they will smile and still secretly hate me for being foreign. This really upsets me, as for some illogical reason I can not stand the idea of anyone hating me.. even if I don't know them. She also says I should dress a lot different to how we dress here in Australia.. But why is overdressing yourself in the heat polite and how do you survive it?

I'm not talking walking around in hipsters and bikini top spilling out everywhere for god's sake, But a sensible slightly above the knee skirt and sleveless top seems out of the question from what I have read? Why is showing your shoulders or knee's rude?

Is it like in the middle east where women do that mostly for the sake of men? I.e Men are completely not held responsible for their own actions here and because it arouses them to see women not completely covered up and they 'can not help themselves'.

Or does it work both ways, men cover up as much as women? If so can someone please explain to me why? Who is offended by the lack of covering up?

My friend also says that Thai people will always be trying to make money out of you for being foreign looking. Is this true or do Thai people also try to get the best price out of other thai people and not really greedy but needy? It just seems weird to me because the country is buddhist and it would make sence you would not want the bad karma from that right?

I also read about how much censorship goes on in Thailand, is this true? Is this done to protect culture? Or just keep the people unaware and uneducated like the American government does?

I guess in my family I was brought up to question things and find an understanding, not just accept them 'because'..

I really look forward to hearing some responses from women living in Thailand!

P.S Please understand I really am trying to be sensative but I can be quite blunt sometimes.

I also have completely limited knowledge about Thai culture (online material can be exagerated and completely wrong sometimes) and want to change that as I am really interested by cultural differences and try to understand them. If I have been offensive in asking so many questions I reallly apologise.

Cheers,

Giselle

[girlx]

hmm... not sure i want to get into that can of worms... may come back later.

[kat]

girlx, don't bother. It's a troll.

[j0j0]

why do you think it is a troll? People on Thai Visa are always so quick to assume the worst. It seems pretty genuine to me, and I wondered about a lot of these things as well. As a westerner who has only been in Thailand for a short time, I don't really think I am in much of a position to answer any of the OPs questions though. Anyone else?

[DamianMavis]

The OP knows TOO MUCH but claims to know very little. Sounds like someone that actually lives here and has first hand experience and knows all the stereotypes.

Damian

[tikitak]

I'm not a troll..

I don't know if I should be upset by 'you know TOO much..' as I was hoping I was very wrong. Or pleased that I have done enough research for someone to think I've actually lived there.

As I said, I've been doing loads of reading online and LP and everything I can get my hands on so I can get the most out of the trip. When I'm actually visiting a place so different to my home, I try to ask people questions as you generally get the best explanations.

I haven't been to Thailand before (Although I will be there in 8 days) I know a bit about different cultures (I'm half Maori - half french V different cultures) and have grown up in Australia (since I was 2) around other mixed nationalities and as a kid you are kinda taught 'everyones an Aussie' so I don't even remember being aware my friends or even I was different untill much later in highschool.

As I mentioned, One of my best mates since highschool is from Thailand, She has been in Aus since she was maybe 6, we've known eachother since year 2. I don't know how much she for sure knows about Thai things.. She's been back a couple of times and as I mentioned she is a bit weird/jaded about the place, Hence my posting questions hoping someone can give me a group/another perspective.

[sbk]

The OP knows TOO MUCH but claims to know very little. Sounds like someone that actually lives here and has first hand experience and knows all the stereotypes.

Damian

Incorrect, OP is not located in Thailand

I really think we should give new posters the benefit of the doubt before jumping in with troll--esp since this is not an attack post, or derogatory in to women --just asking.

[canadiangirl]

Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it doesn't sound like a troll. I think these are interesting questions.

[kat]

The OP knows TOO MUCH but claims to know very little. Sounds like someone that actually lives here and has first hand experience and knows all the stereotypes.

Damian

Incorrect, OP is not located in Thailand

I really think we should give new posters the benefit of the doubt before jumping in with troll--esp since this is not an attack post, or derogatory in to women --just asking.

Ok, my apologies, then. I think it is easy to be paranoid.

[canadiangirl]

She also says I should dress a lot different to how we dress here in Australia.. But why is overdressing yourself in the heat polite and how do you survive it?

I'm not talking walking around in hipsters and bikini top spilling out everywhere for god's sake, But a sensible slightly above the knee skirt and sleveless top seems out of the question from what I have read? Why is showing your shoulders or knee's rude?

Is it like in the middle east where women do that mostly for the sake of men? I.e Men are completely not held responsible for their own actions here and because it arouses them to see women not completely covered up and they 'can not help themselves'.

Or does it work both ways, men cover up as much as women? If so can someone please explain to me why? Who is offended by the lack of covering up?

It doesn't bother me too much to cover up a bit more in Thailand because it seems to me that both Thai men and Thai women are "modest" in their dress by Western standards (whereas it drives me crazy to see Middle-Eastern women sweating away under chadors and cover-everything dresses while their husband enjoy the breeze in a short-sleeved shirt.). I think Bangkok is a bit more liberal than the rest of Thailand; I felt ok for casual every day wear in jeans and a tank top or t-shirt. I've seen lots and lots of Thai women wear above the knee skirts in BKK; you should see the university uniforms!

Apart from a small amount of modesty, neatness and cleanliness in your appearance is also prized. I'm not sure I've ever run into a smelly Thai in public, but there's definitely some smelly tourists on the Skytrain. Also, having hair neatly combed, styled, clothes that are clean and not all rumpled, clean fingernails, etc, and just generally looking like you've put some effort into things, even if you're not a supermodel. This is actually one of the things I really like about Thailand, that everyone takes pride in their appearance, so I don't personally find this too restricting.

As for the heat, you get used to it after a while. You're basically dealing with at least 2-3 showers a day -- except on some days you break a sweat 2 seconds out of the shower and just resign yourself to being a big sweaty mess. You can put things like prickly-heat powder on after you shower, it makes you skin feel cool, and keeps it dry (you have to keep reapplying the stuff). if you don't want your face to look all sweaty you have to carry powder with you, and some blotting tissues, otherwise it goes to hel_l. In BKK most Thais don't walk anywhere ever if they can avoid it, and you learn to worship at the air-conditioned altar of the 7-11 and the big malls.

But I don't claim to be an expert or anything; maybe some Thai women would like to chime in?

Edited July 18, 2007 by canadiangirl

[canadiangirl]

Ok, my apologies, then. I think it is easy to be paranoid.

with some of the other topics on the board, it's hard to blame you.

[sbk]

So many questions...

A lot of what ive been reading online in regards to female life re seems to reflect a western country in the 50's before the feminist movement i.e Cooking, cleaning, 'giving him a martini after work and bringing him his pipe and slippers' sort of extreme.. this stuff has to be a generalisation and not be a true reflection of all Thai women..right?

But, are articles like 'how to be a good Thai wife - which include things like 'keeping your true feelings inside' and getting up before your husbane to make him breakfast and 'always telling him you love all the time through the day' and kind of.. acting like a maid and cook and worst of all just fake - for a man really true, or just BS online blah?

Depends on the woman, my mother-in-law, who is nearly 70 and quite a traditional woman, does not behave this way with her husband. Nor does he expect it. But my 45 year old sister-in-law does. So, I think it just depends on the woman's personality and upbringing. Alot of that is wishful thinking from some kinds of men as well, I think

Are all Thai women really that old fashioned? And I'm not just talking about the extreme other end of the scale like bar girls.. All though I am still confused when I read western guys writing My Thai girlfriend.. if they are talking about a prostitute.. or a real girlfriend.. in which case why mention they are thai.. what difference does it make?

And then all these western guys having a go at western girls online? I just don't understand that.. It makes me think they maybe do expect to have a wife that acts like the women of the time period they grew up in.. Or that they have just been really hurt and/or rejected and are really bitter.

Most likely that, its easier to blame someone else than to look at one's own shortcomings.

I went to school with loads of asian people from different backgrounds, but had 1 really close Thai girlfriend through highschool and she said Thai people aren't really that tolerant at all, they just pretend to be and will say nasty things behind your back and that this even happened to her for being a western (Aussie) Thai.. But I also think maybe it was confusing for her to go back to visit distant family that has been brought up so differently to her having experienced such a different environment maybe??

Depends on the Thai people. But yeah, alot of them do seem to enjoy talking about other people. Gossip makes the local small community go round. Like in many other countries as well, I'd imagine

Anyway she's telling me they will smile and still secretly hate me for being foreign. This really upsets me, as for some illogical reason I can not stand the idea of anyone hating me.. even if I don't know them. She also says I should dress a lot different to how we dress here in Australia.. But why is overdressing yourself in the heat polite and how do you survive it?

I'm not talking walking around in hipsters and bikini top spilling out everywhere for god's sake, But a sensible slightly above the knee skirt and sleveless top seems out of the question from what I have read? Why is showing your shoulders or knee's rude?

Is it like in the middle east where women do that mostly for the sake of men? I.e Men are completely not held responsible for their own actions here and because it arouses them to see women not completely covered up and they 'can not help themselves'.

Or does it work both ways, men cover up as much as women? If so can someone please explain to me why? Who is offended by the lack of covering up?

You are a tourist, be polite but don't over do it. Cover your shoulders and wear long pants when going to the temples, otherwise, if you look around, many Thai girls where short shorts and miniskirts. Not that I would recommend it, but you don't need to overdo the covering up part either.

My friend also says that Thai people will always be trying to make money out of you for being foreign looking. Is this true or do Thai people also try to get the best price out of other thai people and not really greedy but needy? It just seems weird to me because the country is buddhist and it would make sence you would not want the bad karma from that right?

People in tourist areas tend to look at everyone as a customer, just remember that and you'll be fine. Don't get sucked into "investing" in someone's business and you'll be fine. The govt and many private businesses do practice dual pricing for Thais and foreigners. Something not commendable but you'll just have to live with it.

I also read about how much censorship goes on in Thailand, is this true? Is this done to protect culture? Or just keep the people unaware and uneducated like the American government does?

Huh? Censorship in Thailand depends. Do not disrespect the Royal Family and you'll be fine. Otherwise, you have a very odd idea of media in the US

[tikitak]

Thanks for the reply Canadiangirl,

I should be fine in Bangkok then.. To be honest, apart from secretly wanting my partner to think I look amazing at all times = )... I don't think I've ever really even let what someone else (may) think(s) dictate how I should dress. It's all a bit new.

Bit worried about later, We're going to do a bit of travelling around to spend time on islands and I'm going to try to do some volunteer work with animals (am 2nd year Vet).

I don't think many girls need an extra excuse to be particular about grooming... I am GHB/ hair straightening addict and rely on this to have my hair look somewhat decent. Will be interesting seeing how grooming is affected by lots of travelling around.

I Will make sure I never smell! (bad) (handy purse sized issey)

[canadiangirl]

I also read about how much censorship goes on in Thailand, is this true? Is this done to protect culture? Or just keep the people unaware and uneducated like the American government does?

There are some censorship issues in Thailand. Pornography is illegal. Access to some websites is banned in-country. I remember trying to read a blog about sex (not porn, just someone talking about sexual politics), and got a web page saying this site is banned by the ministry of communication. There are some free press issues for people who work as journalists for the local papers, I think.

After the coup, I think some Thaksin-related web sites were banned, and I think they prevented CNN from broadcasting some of his speeches within Thailand. I heard that was changing/changed now.

Of course you must have heard about the famous thing with youtube being banned in Thailand.

I have to say this is an aspect of Thai culture I find rather puzzling -- the fairly old-fashioned moralizing tone of the government (pornography is illegal!) with the rather colorful reality of every day life. Is it about saving face? Is there another explanation? I'd like to know too!

[LaReina]

You ask some interesting questions, that even I would like to know the "general" answers to.

For the most part, a lot of your generalisations depend on where you go, and with whom you hang out with.

Do i get ripped off, depends on where i go. Sometimes I ask for the price of an item and think I heard incorrectly, because it is for SURE a thai price, and other times, I have the vendor tell me, "same, same" and I watch them sell the same item to a Thai person for the "higher price" which I have been quoted.

In general, I try not to buy things that do not have a price tag, and. .. if I ask for the price, and they hesitate and have to think about it, then I move on. If you are in a high tourist spot, then expect a tourist price.

Covering up is interesting. Not sure about that, because I wear tank tops with spaghetti straps, all the time. Why not, they sell them here in the stores! Quite a few of my thai girl friends, wear halter necks, they have the bod for it (if you've got it flaunt it), but then it is done tastefully. If you expose more of the upper body, then you cover more of the lower, or vice versa.

DO people hate me, I wouldn't know and do not really care either way. I am sure there are a lot of haters in my own country.

Are women subservient here? Depends on the circumstances.

But I will say that there are women construction workers, taxi drivers, bus drivers, BTS drivers, police officers, road sweepers, main road hedge trimmers, vendors, cooks, you name it. I feel that women here hold a wider variety of jobs than they do back home, and I am still trying to figure out, why they are not more established with ruling and controlling the govt.

[tikitak]

Thanks your answers SBK.. Your replies were down to earth and just what I was really hoping to hear.

Its easy to perhaps be hypersensitive to things when you are reading extreme cases and feedback online, there is not much personal perspective.

I didn't just mean media re: censorship.. Government, education, and yes media as well..It is a bit scary in US because of the introspective closed region reporting they tend to use.. not teaching evolution in schools, only reporting on national and heavily cherry picked international events.. It almost seems they want to keep the people ignorant and uneducated as a whole so these handfull of elite can run off on ulterior motives.

I can't belive pornography is illegal. That changes the perspective of ..everything..

(I'm probably a bit prude and don't really like it in any case. But I have enough male friends to know that that.. I don't even know what to say)

That reminds me a bit of, how they tried to control porn in US when the fundamentalist christians (Bush's Dad) were in power, But they couldn't because of the supreme court's definition of pornography being 'anything that promoted sexual thought' and the term being too generally ambiguous.

Censoring the internet is pretty full on though. Wow.

Has it always been illegal? I'm just doing research now and is says prostitution is illegal too.. but um....?

What about abortion is that illegal too?

OK Im sorry, I'm being the posterchild of totally un PC questions but now I'm really curious..

[sbk]

abortion is illegal but birth control is widely available with no taboo against using it and free for poorer women.

prostitution and gambling are illegal but widely practiced. Just one of the dichotomies of Thailand

As for internet censorship, well, it has been relaxed somewhat but it and the media are nowhere near as free as before Thaksin came to power (he was a major instigator of censorship in this country).

[DamianMavis]

The OP knows TOO MUCH but claims to know very little. Sounds like someone that actually lives here and has first hand experience and knows all the stereotypes.

Damian

Incorrect, OP is not located in Thailand

I really think we should give new posters the benefit of the doubt before jumping in with troll--esp since this is not an attack post, or derogatory in to women --just asking.

Ya I said "sounds like" and she does. She is very well informed and knows lots of the Thai stereotypes. Anyway, yes porn and prostitution are both illegal and totally and readily available at any time day or night at amazing discount prices! Im just joking, they don't actually advertise discounts.... Never heard of prostitution being policed but they do crack down on the porn dealers in Pantip occassionaly, guess it's the thought that counts.

Damian