Make take on the new tax laws and panic

[bg53]

Just now, wmlc said:

I don't agree. I will give you a huge example. The girls that go work in South Korea or Japan or Taiwan. They go three months at a time once or twice per year and earn big money. 

 

You think those girls will ever pay tax? Who knows what they earn?

[wmlc]

6 minutes ago, bg53 said:

 

You think those girls will ever pay tax? Who knows what they earn?

So, if the Thai government can't enforce it on them, their own citizens, how can they enforce it on foreigners? Those girls transfer the money in or bring it in in cash the same as we do.

[pluto_manibo]

2 hours ago, Everyman said:

 

Well said. I could not agree more. 

 

Thailand is the hub of the government announcing ridiculous things that never happen. Anyone remember when they announced that that Thailand will host the Tour de France? 

https://www.tatnews.org/2022/04/letape-thailand-by-tour-de-france-phang-nga-2022-cycling-event-set-for-mid-may/

https://www.businesseventsthailand.com/en/event-calendar/detail/93-letape-thailand-by-tour-de-france

[wmlc]

1 minute ago, pluto_manibo said:

https://www.tatnews.org/2022/04/letape-thailand-by-tour-de-france-phang-nga-2022-cycling-event-set-for-mid-may/

Ha Ha 

[bg53]

3 minutes ago, wmlc said:

So, if the Thai government can't enforce it on them, their own citizens, how can they enforce it on foreigners? Those girls transfer the money to bring it in cash. the same as we do.

 

Those girls work on a pure cash basis in Korea, which has tight currency export oversight. You mean to say most foreigners are in the same boat?

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, wmlc said:

So, if the Thai government can't enforce it on them, their own citizens, how can they enforce it on foreigners? Those girls transfer the money to bring it in cash. the same as we do.

Many use the hawala banking system. 

 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hawala.asp

 

Widely used in many South East Asian countries, also western countries with illegal immigrants. 

 

You really need to stop looking at effort and manpower and infrastructure reasons as to why this will not come in.  There's money involved, the Thai's will get something in place to get that money flowing. 

[AreYouGerman]

What you don't understand - they don't care. Provide the proof that you paid taxes or you won't get your temporary 1 year extension. And that's the end of it.

[wmlc]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Many use the hawala banking system. 

 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hawala.asp

 

Widely used in many South East Asian countries, also western countries with illegal immigrants. 

 

You really need to stop looking at effort and manpower and infrastructure reasons as to why this will not come in.  There's money involved, the Thai's will get something in place to get that money flowing. 

Oh wow. You are paranoid. The girls I know send it on western union and through the normal swift code system. Or they transfer it to their account or a family member account or a friend's account. Some Thais actually have accounts in these other countries and there girls send the money to those accounts in Taiwan for example. That same Thai person then takes the money from their local Thai bank and gives it to the beneficiary. They get the money in a foreign account and give it out in cash in Thailand from a different account. Eventually, some money needs to find its way from the foreign account to the Thai account and that can happen multiple ways. By bringing its in cash. Money transfer, western union, and so many other ways. 

[AreYouGerman]

19 minutes ago, wmlc said:

So, if the Thai government can't enforce it on them, their own citizens, how can they enforce it on foreigners? Those girls transfer the money in or bring it in in cash the same as we do.

 

Tell that the IO who will ask you for proof that you paid your taxes or he won't give you your retirement/marriage extension. He will probably say something in the line of 'falang you pay or you go home', ... 'but but but my home is here'. 🥶

[wmlc]

1 minute ago, AreYouGerman said:

What you don't understand - they don't care. Provide the proof that you paid taxes or you won't get your temporary 1 year extension. And that's the end of it.

Why have they not implemented that enforcement in the past. The 180 day rule was already in place in some capacity for many years. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[wmlc]

1 minute ago, AreYouGerman said:

 

Tell that the IO who will ask you for proof that you paid your taxes or he won't give you your retirement/marriage extension. He will probably say something in the line of 'falang you pay or you go home', ... 'but but but my home is here'. 🥶

I am still waiting for that to happen. As it stands, it has not happened for many years. 

[AreYouGerman]

1 minute ago, wmlc said:

Why have they not implemented that enforcement in the past. The 180 day rule was already in place in some capacity for many years. What are your thoughts on that?

 

 

Ehm? What. Because they didn't care about taxes from foreigners. That changed recently. Remember why you made the post. 🤨

 

 

 

[daveAustin]

3 hours ago, wmlc said:

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. 

Indeed. They will more than likely F it all up and we will all end up paying for the error handsomely.

[NoDisplayName]

56 minutes ago, wmlc said:

In my opinion, the worst case scenario will be a failed attempt. 

 

 In MY opinion, the worst case scenario will be a SUCCESSFUL attempt.

[wmlc]

6 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

 In MY opinion, the worst case scenario will be a SUCCESSFUL attempt.

Pack your bags then Lol

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, wmlc said:

The point I am making is they won't do it because they don't have the organization skills, time, budget, or resources for it. Your idea would take a lot of preparation. Sure they can do it, but they won't in my opinion because they just can't.

 

Not necessarily that much additional bureaucracy needed.  And it all doesn't need to be put in place at once.

 

Step one is to pass the legislation, make it law, make it public knowledge.  With that they've established that we potentially owe taxes.  It's up to US to request TIN's and file taxes within the specified time.

 

Step two is to notify visa extension applicants that their visa extensions will depend on providing a stamped copy of their tax return to prove compliance, similar to providing bank statements showing total balance and maintaining the minimum balance, or copies of passport entry/exit stamps to prove < 180 days in country.

 

Step three can come the following year, setting up the clearance desks in airports, requiring a stamped copy of tax return or copies of passport entry/exit stamps to permit exit.

 

Step four:  profit.

[wmlc]

38 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Not necessarily that much additional bureaucracy needed.  And it all doesn't need to be put in place at once.

 

Step one is to pass the legislation, make it law, make it public knowledge.  With that they've established that we potentially owe taxes.  It's up to US to request TIN's and file taxes within the specified time.

 

Step two is to notify visa extension applicants that their visa extensions will depend on providing a stamped copy of their tax return to prove compliance, similar to providing bank statements showing total balance and maintaining the minimum balance, or copies of passport entry/exit stamps to prove < 180 days in country.

 

Step three can come the following year, setting up the clearance desks in airports, requiring a stamped copy of tax return or copies of passport entry/exit stamps to permit exit.

 

Step four:  profit.

All of that would be very ambitious of the Thai government to do. I will go you one better. Here is the existing law that is in place. It has not been enforced in many years. I wonder why that is????? Hmmm. The following would be the easiest way to enforce the new law. Make everyone on a Non immigrant visa get a tax clearance certificate before they can leave the country. Here is the legislation they abandoned enforcement on, but it still exists in the Thailand Revenue Code and you can actually still obtain one. Yes, that's  right. You can still obtain one because the mechanism is still in place. However, no one will ever ask you for one when you try to leave Thailand.  So, how can we explain this one not  being enforced anymore? It is so easy for them to do. Just have a dozen or so staff in each city working in the TRD offices and all they do each and every day is issue thee certificates and collect unpaid taxes. How about an online system that asks you to input your details and issues them automatically if it's straight forward. And if not straight forward, it forces you to schedule an appointment to go in and sort it in person before getting the certificate and leaving Thailand. WHY HAS THIS STOPPED BEING ENFORCED? I WONDER WHY. LOL I KNOW WHY. BECaUSE THEY NO HABE THE RESOURCES AND NEVER WILL. LOL. Sorry, I could not resist the Thinglish. LOL

 

Section 4 Bis A foreigner departing Thailand shall pay tax due and/or tax payable even if it is not due, or to arrange for a collateral for payment of tax in accordance with the provisions of the Revenue Code before departure.

 

Section 4 Ter A foreigner departing Thailand shall apply for a Tax Clearance Certificate in the form prescribed by the Director-General within fifteen days prior to departure, whether or not there is any tax payable.

 

      An application under paragraph 1, where the foreigner is domiciled or resides in Bangkok or Thonburi province, shall be submited to the Director-General or his authorized representative. If he is domiciled or resides in other province, it shall be submited to the Provincial Governor or his authorized representative.

      A foreigner who does not apply for Tax Clearance Certificate under paragraph 1 and 2, or does apply but has not received a Tax Clearance Certificate, departs Thailand or attempts to depart Thailand, he will not only be subject to punishment under the provisions of the Revenue Code, but also surcharge of 20 percent of tax payable. Surcharge under this Section is deemed to be tax.

 

Section 4 Quarter Provisions of Section 4 Bis and Section 4 Ter shall not apply to a foreigner transiting Thailand, or entering and residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating not more than ninety days in a tax year without earning assessable income, or to a foreigner as prescribed by the Director-General with the Minister’s approval. ⁷

 

      ⁷N.DG.Re. Stipulating Non-Requirement for Foreigners Departing from Thailand to Obtain Tax Clearance Certificate.

 

Section 4 Quinque A person receiving an application under Section 4 Ter shall examine whether the applicant has any tax liability under Section 4 Bis or not. If there is no tax liability, a Tax Clearance certificate prescribed by the Director-General shall be issued to the applicant.

 

      If the examination under the provision of paragraph 1 appears that the applicant has tax liability to be paid under Section 4 Bis and the applicant has fully paid tax, or if he does not pay tax in full or pays part of the tax but arranges for a guarantor or a collateral as the Director-General or a Provincial governor or his authorized representative deems appropriate as a collateral for tax payment, he shall be issued a Tax Clearance certificate by the Director-General or a Provincial Governor or his authorized representative.

 

Section 4 Sex In the case where a person receiving an application under Section 4 Ter considers that an applicant has sufficient reason to leave Thailand urgently but temporarily, and an applicant has a collateral or assets in Thailand worth more than the amount of tax due or tax payable, the Director-General or Provincial Governor or an authorized representative shall issue a Tax Clearance certificate.

 

Section 4 Septem Subject to Section 4 Octo, a Tax Clearance Certificate is valid for fifteen days from the date of issuance. If there is a request for extension before it expires, the Director-General or Provincial Governor or his authorized representative may extend it for another fifteen days.

 

Section 4 Octo A foreigner who has to enter Thailand on a regular basis in relation to his occupation or profession may apply to the Director-General or Provincial Governor or his authorized representative as the case may be, to issue a Tax Clearance Certificate which is used regularly. If a person receiving the application considers that the applicant has a necessary cause as requested and has a collateral or assets in Thailand in the amount at least equal to tax due or tax payable, may issue a Tax Clearance Certificate in the form prescribed by the Director-General. Such Tax Clearance Certificate shall be valid during the time specified in such Certificate but shall not exceed one hundred and eighty days from the date of issuance.

 

Section 4 Novem A foreigner departing Thailand without a Tax Clearance Certificate as required by the Revenue Code shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 1,000 Baht, or an imprisonment not exceeding 1 month, or both. A foreigner attempting to do as such shall be subject to the same punishment.

 

Section 4 Decem The Director-General or his authorized representative shall pay interest to a taxpayer receiving tax refund at the rate of 1 per cent per month or part of the month of the amount of tax refundable subject to the rules and conditions prescribed by the Ministerial regulations. Interest paid under paragraph 1 shall not exceed the amount of tax refundable and shall be paid out of tax collected under the Revenue Code.

 

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, wmlc said:

All of that would be very ambitious of the Thai government to do. I will go you one better. Here is the existing law that is in place. It has not been enforced in many years. I wonder why that is????? Hmmm. The following would be the easiest way to enforce the new law. Make everyone on a Non immigrant visa get a tax clearance certificate before they can leave the country. Here is the legislation they abandoned enforcement on, but it still exists in the Thailand Revenue Code and you can actually still obtain one. Yes, that's  right. You can still obtain one because the mechanism is still in place. However, no one will ever ask you for one when you try to leave Thailand.  So, how can we explain this one n to being enforced anymore? It is so easy for them to do. Just have a dozen or so staff in each city working in the TRD offices and all they do each and every day is issue thee certificates. How about an online system that asks you to input your details and issues them automatically if it's straight forward. And if not straight forward, it forced you to schedule an appointment to go in and sort it in person. WHY HAS THIS STOP BEING ENFORCED? I WONDER WHY. LOL,

 

<snip>

 

 

Simple answer........they don't want to.....now.

 

It was in effect, it operated for some time. There are posters on this forum that relate having to get exit clearance in the past.

 

Perhaps it didn't bring in the revenue they thought it would.  Who knows.

 

Putting in the tax provisions for visa extensions is a simple enough task even for this government.

 

 

[wmlc]

15 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Simple answer........they don't want to.....now.

 

It was in effect, it operated for some time. There are posters on this forum that relate having to get exit clearance in the past.

 

Perhaps it didn't bring in the revenue they thought it would.  Who knows.

 

Putting in the tax provisions for visa extensions is a simple enough task even for this government.

 

 

But what If they just leave. Seems a waste to me. I know plenty of guys who would leave just to avoid filing taxes. Forget about whether they would even need to pay or not. In my humble opinion, if they could not manage to make this work, they can't manage to coordinate with airport immigration on exit and entry, Thai immigration on visa extensions, and making sure everyone can apply for and receive a tax ID. I will tell you a story from this past February. We have one client who insisted on getting a tax ID because he was anticipating having to file. He is a retiree. Guess what, the officer in the Revenue Dept told him not to worry and didn't issue the tax ID. This was after the new law came out. Go figure.

 

Also, there were more foreigners coming here then than there are now. Foreigners have still not returned at the same level as before after covid. There is less money to be made now than there was before. 

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, wmlc said:

But what I they just leave. Seems a waste to me. I know plenty of guys who would leave to avoid filing taxes. Forget about whether they would even need to pay or not. In my humble opinion, if they could not manage to make this work, they can't manage to coordinate with airport immigration on exit and entry, Thai immigration on visa extensions, and making sure everyone can apply for a receive a tax ID. I will tell you a story from this past February. We have one client who insisted on getting a tax ID in February because he was anticipating having to file. He is a retiree. Guess what, the officer in the Revenue Dept told him not to worry and didn't issue the tax ID. 

That's just it.  They DID make it work, but decided at some point not to enforce it.  That means the legislation and bureaucracy for exit checks is already in place, and merely needs to be reactivated.

 

An anecdote?  One officer says don't worry about it.  It's extra work for him.  The officer did NOT say no you can't have one.  Big difference.

 

I have a TIN from a few years ago, used to request refund of interest tax withheld.  Easy to get in Bangkapi, took fifteen minutes with minimal documentation.  No changes needed to get TIN's for all long-term visa holders.

 

No major changes needed at immigration.   Just add another box to the checklist.  Passport, TM30, bank statement, bankbook, tax return.

 

Only difficult part will be revising the tax forms to add blocks for all the juicy new chunks of freshly assessable income.  Make it all in-person, no on-line filing.  Piece of cake.  If there's anything the Thai's can handle, it's creating more paperwork.

[wmlc]

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

That's just it.  They DID make it work, but decided at some point not to enforce it.  That means the legislation and bureaucracy for exit checks is already in place, and merely needs to be reactivated.

 

An anecdote?  One officer says don't worry about it.  It's extra work for him.  The officer did NOT say no you can't have one.  Big difference.

 

I have a TIN from a few years ago, used to request refund of interest tax withheld.  Easy to get in Bangkapi, took fifteen minutes with minimal documentation.  No changes needed to get TIN's for all long-term visa holders.

 

No major changes needed at immigration.   Just add another box to the checklist.  Passport, TM30, bank statement, bankbook, tax return.

 

Only difficult part will be revising the tax forms to add blocks for all the juicy new chunks of freshly assessable income.  Make it all in-person, no on-line filing.  Piece of cake.  If there's anything the Thai's can handle, it's creating more paperwork.

Lol. If the rule of attraction is true, you and some others will get what you say you don't want lol. However, for me, I am positive even with new technology available today, they won't be bothered to go after foreigners. It's too much work for them. Then what about a new government? This happens a lot more often here than in other countries. For example, new government, new weed laws. Another new government a few years later, more backpedaling and foots in mouthes. Then there is the foreign investment they will lose. No more retirees buying condos. I can go on. Anyways, let's hope I am right. For you, it sounds like you better start making your exit strategy lol. 

[NoDisplayName]

11 minutes ago, wmlc said:

Lol. If the rule of attraction is true, you and some others will get what you say you don't want lol. However, for me, I am positive even with new technology available today, they won't be bothered to go after foreigners. It's too much work for them. Then what about a new government? This happens a lot more often here than in other countries. For example, new government, new weed laws. Another new government a few years later, more backpedaling and foots in mouthes. Then there is the foreign investment they will lose. No more retirees buying condos.

 

No western retirees buying condos?

So what?
 

Quote

 

Chinese buyers dominated Thailand real estate market in 2021

 

Chinese nationals bought the most condos out of any foreign nationality in Thailand this year despite the difficulties posed by Beijing’s strict Covid-19 restrictions

 

Chinese and Russian buyers have been the top foreign purchasers of condominiums in Thailand this year, with sales experiencing a significant increase in popular tourist destinations such as Bangkok, Pattaya, and Phuket.

 

Chinese people top list of foreign property buyers in Thailand

 

 

1.5 billion Chinese with visa-free stays don't care about your tax residency rules.  They can come and go as they please, and are willing to buy everything in sight.  Note:  China does NOT tax worldwide income.

 

"All you condo belong us!"

 

 

 

[QuantumQuandry]

20 minutes ago, wmlc said:

they can't manage to coordinate with airport immigration on exit and entry, Thai immigration on visa extensions, and making sure everyone can apply for and receive a tax ID.

 

So if immigration just says "Prove you paid taxes" the same way they already say "Prove you have income"...can you specify what coordination you think is challenging?

[wmlc]

23 minutes ago, QuantumQuandry said:

 

So if immigration just says "Prove you paid taxes" the same way they already say "Prove you have income"...can you specify what coordination you think is challenging?

First of all, it would just be prove you filed and not proof you paid. The personal income tax return and the accessed income will determine if you have to pay or not along with other deductions you might be eligible for plus any DTA that is relevant. Secondly, I believe they won't be able to handle the tax ID applications and all the processes. Thirdly, I think the pressure from the other government sectors that depend on foreign investment will fight back. Finally, immigration will face so many challenging extensions people will just stop doing them and won't stay. Imagine the chaos at immigration. That means no more jobs for Immigration officers as they won't be needed anymore. It just won't happen in my opinion. They may try but it will fail.  

[wmlc]

24 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

No western retirees buying condos?

So what?
 

 

1.5 billion Chinese with visa-free stays don't care about your tax residency rules.  They can come and go as they please, and are willing to buy everything in sight.  Note:  China does NOT tax worldwide income.

 

"All you condo belong us!"

 

 

 

Let's look at one typical Chinese example. Many Chinese don't stay here for long as a tourist.They just come here on vacation, buy condo and rent it out. Therefore, Thai taxes are important for them. Even if they are not a tax resident in Thailand, they still do earn assessable income from their rental. Therefore, in Thailand, tax is still an issue for them and they will care. However, that is a really good point because they might buy up all the condos anyways that us stubborn western guys stop buying because we worry about a new tax law that most likely won't be enforced. 

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, wmlc said:

First of all, it would just be prove you files and not proof you paid. The personal income tax return and the accesses income will determine if you have to pay or not along with other deductions you might be eligible for plus any DTA that is relevant. Secondly, I believe they won't be able to handle the tax ID applications and all the processes. Thirdly, I think the pressure from the other government sectors that depend on foreign investment will fight back. Finally, immigration will face so many challenging extensions people will just stop doing them and won't stay. That means no more jobs for Immigration officers as they won't be needed anymore. It just won't happen in my opinion. They may try but it will fail.  

 

Where's the difficulty.

 

We have to go to the bank prior to applying for an extension, update passbook, get statements stamped by the bank.

 

Same with taxes.  Prior to applying for extension, get an official copy of tax return showing any taxes due, plus a simple receipt of any payment stamped by the tax office.

 

This is the easy part.  All of this is available now.

 

The difficult part is how to integrate foreign bank and tax records into the Thai tax system. 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, wmlc said:

Let's look at one typical Chinese example. Many Chinese don't stay here for long as a tourist.They just come here on vacation, buy condo and rent it out. Therefore, Thai taxes are important for them. Even if they are not a tax resident in Thailand, they still do earn assessable income from their rental. Therefore, in Thailand, tax is still an issue for them and they will care. However, that is a really good point because they might buy up all the condos anyways that us stubborn western guys stop buying because we worry about a new tax law that most likely won't be enforced. 

 

They don't need to rent out the condos.  It gets ueber cold in Beijing and Heilongjiang.  Chinese snowbirds can lock up their condos for 8 months or so, use them for winter escapes.

 

As to reporting their rental income for illegal daily AirBnB.......haha!

[wmlc]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Where's the difficulty.

 

We have to go to the bank prior to applying for an extension, update passbook, get statements stamped by the bank.

 

Same with taxes.  Prior to applying for extension, get an official copy of tax return showing any taxes due, plus a simple receipt of any payment stamped by the tax office.

 

This is the easy part.  All of this is available now.

 

The difficult part is how to integrate foreign bank and tax records into the Thai tax system. 

 

 

In my experience, just issuing a simple tax ID is difficult. They can't even speak English. You are lucky if you can find a Revene Dept officer who can put two English words together. 

[wmlc]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

They don't need to rent out the condos.  It gets ueber cold in Beijing and Heilongjiang.  Chinese snowbirds can lock up their condos for 8 months or so, use them for winter escapes.

 

As to reporting their rental income for illegal daily AirBnB.......haha!

You are a good debater Lol. It's been fun. 

[NoDisplayName]

7 minutes ago, wmlc said:

In my experience, just issuing a simple tax ID is difficult. They can't even speak English. You are lucky if you can find a Revene Dept officer who can put two English words together. 

 

This is hit or miss, same as any police station or tax office or immigration office.

 

My experience was the opposite, simple and efficient process to have a TIN issued.

 

I'm sure the main tax authority can issue a single-page order on issuing cards to foreigners.  This is too easy.