Ukraine Wins $118 Million Contract To Supply 96 APCs To Thailand

[geriatrickid]

Some of the comments show a lack of understanding of the instigators. They are in many cases foreigners operating from the other side of the border and who receive their funding through either criminal means or from foreign sources that consider this local matter to be part of a global "struggle". The same groups that supported the Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan provide monetary and logistical support to these insurgents. The training for the manufacture of the IEDs was initially provided by foreigners.

Without doubt there is a significant economic motivator as the locals see the strength of the Malaysian economy next door and the relatively higher standard of living. However, living conditions will never improve until there is some semblance of order and peace in the south. Therein is the cornerstone of the insurgent's strategy which is to provoke disorder and to disrupt the economy. The goal is to create such instability that the local populace will embrace the insurgents and their promise of order and stability.

Currently, the insurgency does not enjoy popular support as many of the victims are local muslims often murdered to incite a violent retaliation or because they were deemed to be "unsympathetic". If the economy is battered, it is the locals that suffer. This is the reality. The southern terrorists are not motivated by altruism. It is a movement that relies on the manipulation of young teenagers to plant the IEDs and that thinks nothing of raping teachers prior to beheading them. These are people that have no hesitation at burning people alive in schoolhouses. One cannot sit down and "negotiate" with people that clearly target non combatants and who have stated that there will be no peace until all "foreign" influences are removed.

The Thai government has shown remarkable patience and restraint in dealing with this problem To a large extent it is following its successful strategy employed against the pseudo communists in the North. However, one would be mistaken to not realize that the specialists are already in the field lining up their targets. Just as the Thais quietly removed the communist insurgency leaders by means of targeted renderments, so to will it occur in the south. The Thais don't need any "Vietnam" lectures as they avoided a "Vietnam" by using Thai methods to resolve the problem. Those methods are violent but effective.

The movement of troops is mostly for show, to provide reassurance to the populace. The real counter insurgency is taking place sight unseen. It isn't pretty and it may offend the sensibilities of those that think the terrorists are motivated by their love of humankind and the betterment of society. The Thais will get the job done and it will be done quietly. In the interim, alot of innocent people will die and suffer. That is the nature of terrorism.

[admiraldy]

Soldiers need protection, period.

Thailand doesn't produce armoured pickups and US Bradleys are far more expensive, I suspect.

Consitution draft not translated in Malay dialect - nothing unusual, it's not an official language yet.

My friend , look at what is happening to the US forces in Iraq , the Iraqi resistence are blowing up the Abrahams tanks and destroying them , with road side bombs , so dont expect a light armoured vehicule to provide any kind of protection to road side bombs .

The only solution to the south crisis is through dialogue , because whenever you have a resistance force , the harder you hit them the more harder they will hit you back .

[cdnvic]

My friend , look at what is happening to the US forces in Iraq , the Iraqi resistence are blowing up the Abrahams tanks and destroying them , with road side bombs , so dont expect a light armoured vehicule to provide any kind of protection to road side bombs .

The only solution to the south crisis is through dialogue , because whenever you have a resistance force , the harder you hit them the more harder they will hit you back .

Three soldiers have been killed in IED attacks on Abrams tanks in Iraq. None in Afghanistan. There have been no fatal IED attacks on British Challengers in Iraq or Canadian Leopards in Afghanistan.

What do you think the numbers would be if the tank crews in the many attempted attacks on these tanks had been riding in pickup trucks instead?

Yes there needs to be dialogue for the situation in the south to have any hope of a solution, but in the meantime you don't let soldiers go unprotected.

[Tony Clifton]

Soldiers need protection, period.

Thailand doesn't produce armoured pickups and US Bradleys are far more expensive, I suspect.

Consitution draft not translated in Malay dialect - nothing unusual, it's not an official language yet.

My friend , look at what is happening to the US forces in Iraq , the Iraqi resistence are blowing up the Abrahams tanks and destroying them , with road side bombs , so dont expect a light armoured vehicule to provide any kind of protection to road side bombs .

The only solution to the south crisis is through dialogue , because whenever you have a resistance force , the harder you hit them the more harder they will hit you back .

I believe the IEDs used in the South to be much less sophisticated, improvised, compared to the IEDs commonly used in Iraq and Afghanistan which seem to have way much more destructive force. Still is ridiculous to have troops riding around in pick-up trucks.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[Gravelrash]

Soldiers need protection, period.

Thailand doesn't produce armoured pickups and US Bradleys are far more expensive, I suspect.

Consitution draft not translated in Malay dialect - nothing unusual, it's not an official language yet.

My friend , look at what is happening to the US forces in Iraq , the Iraqi resistence are blowing up the Abrahams tanks and destroying them , with road side bombs , so dont expect a light armoured vehicule to provide any kind of protection to road side bombs .

The only solution to the south crisis is through dialogue , because whenever you have a resistance force , the harder you hit them the more harder they will hit you back .

I think in the past what you say would be correct. However I don't believe there will be a compromise position here, and even if there is more radical groups will continue the fight, after all what basis is there for compromise with non-believers?

The govt suggests it has been looking for such with the only result being more hideous maimings, murders and tortures. I suspect that geriatrickid is correct in that the Thais will try to resolve with the gloves off.

[Prakanong]

Yet they couldn't find the money to print the new charter in the language that the people down South could read.

Tells us something, doesn't it?

Yes, it tells us that these vehicles, which have been in the procurement pipeline since 2001 and continually delayed and postponed during the Thaksin administration, are long overdue... and that an untold number of Thai soldiers have died because of that delay.

Its not the south - its the streets of Bangkok al la 73, 76 and 93 - these Taksin supporter of Demvcracy need cleansing eh John the newbiew

[zipster31]

Some of the comments show a lack of understanding of the instigators. They are in many cases foreigners operating from the other side of the border and who receive their funding through either criminal means or from foreign sources that consider this local matter to be part of a global "struggle". The same groups that supported the Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan provide monetary and logistical support to these insurgents. The training for the manufacture of the IEDs was initially provided by foreigners.

Without doubt there is a significant economic motivator as the locals see the strength of the Malaysian economy next door and the relatively higher standard of living. However, living conditions will never improve until there is some semblance of order and peace in the south. Therein is the cornerstone of the insurgent's strategy which is to provoke disorder and to disrupt the economy. The goal is to create such instability that the local populace will embrace the insurgents and their promise of order and stability.

Currently, the insurgency does not enjoy popular support as many of the victims are local muslims often murdered to incite a violent retaliation or because they were deemed to be "unsympathetic". If the economy is battered, it is the locals that suffer. This is the reality. The southern terrorists are not motivated by altruism. It is a movement that relies on the manipulation of young teenagers to plant the IEDs and that thinks nothing of raping teachers prior to beheading them. These are people that have no hesitation at burning people alive in schoolhouses. One cannot sit down and "negotiate" with people that clearly target non combatants and who have stated that there will be no peace until all "foreign" influences are removed.

The Thai government has shown remarkable patience and restraint in dealing with this problem To a large extent it is following its successful strategy employed against the pseudo communists in the North. However, one would be mistaken to not realize that the specialists are already in the field lining up their targets. Just as the Thais quietly removed the communist insurgency leaders by means of targeted renderments, so to will it occur in the south. The Thais don't need any "Vietnam" lectures as they avoided a "Vietnam" by using Thai methods to resolve the problem. Those methods are violent but effective.

The movement of troops is mostly for show, to provide reassurance to the populace. The real counter insurgency is taking place sight unseen. It isn't pretty and it may offend the sensibilities of those that think the terrorists are motivated by their love of humankind and the betterment of society. The Thais will get the job done and it will be done quietly. In the interim, alot of innocent people will die and suffer. That is the nature of terrorism.

I agree with most of these views. I think the biggest underlying problem and issue in the south is the influence of the foreign insurgents, using the south of Thailand as another place for their worldwide "cause" and own ends. They are taken advantage of the Thai political weakness in the south and it is working. When you say Senior Member that "The Thais will get the job done and it will be done quietly", how confident are you about this? Is the foreign insurgents influence too much for the Thais to deal with? Is it too late for them to deal with? Are the foreign insurgents gaining a stronger hold in this country every day? Is their black money being brought here and cleaned with the purchase of land etc? I believe due to the lack of understanding, integration and education in the south, which is the responsibilty of a corrupt and greedy government who have been too busy with their fingers in the cookie jar, now have a situation they are unable to deal with. This problem will escalate and be here for years to come.

[endure]

"3) Religious or racial slurs, rude and degrading comments towards women, or extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated."

Posts have been removed. Stick to the topic and forget the religious rants.

[DP25]

I cannot see the need, in the context of the South, for all the expensive engineering that is involved in having 8X8 drive, nor in having the expensive armanent shown on the vehicle in the picture.

Basically, troops on a mission to win the hearts and minds of their fellow citizens need nothing more militarily-sophisticated than an armoured bus.

Maybe the Prime Minister, who has declared himself to be a champion of Sufficiency, should be having a word with the Commander of the Army about being seen to be frugal in the deployment of the public funds supplied to him.

Locally-produced vehicles, suitably adapted by local labour, would suffice; and cost less than a tenth of the figures quoted.

Actually, Thailand is doing that as well. A Thai company has signed an agreement to produce the Australian Bushmaster IMV, a smaller, 4 wheeled vehicle that is currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Article about the agreement.

http://www.loxley.co.th/homepage6/MOVEMENT/adi.html

Bushmaster wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_IMV

[gbt71fa]

When I was an artillery officer durring the invasion part of the war we used to BTRs as "Piece of Shat in the Open", in reference to a call for fire on an enemy tartget such as " 3 T-72s in the open, six rounds of....,", well you get the point. They are a real waste of a military vehicle but when all the other side has is pointy sticks and a cocounut...

[gbt71fa]

So how many frozen chickens = $118m ??

And how many Plavix tablets for 118 millions USD ?

More seriously... It's the sword/shield principle. Insurgents in the south will use bigger devices...

It is too thined-skinned and too low to the ground to be of any use against land-mines, it is just supposed to transport troops and not get in a fight because if it does....

[gbt71fa]

Although education and health are indeed primary issues, the unfortunate aspect of the southern troubles is that teachers, civil servants and health care providers are being murdered on a weekly basis. For those that believe that the government should send medicine or books first, tell it to all the teachers and health care workers that demanded protection. You can't provide health care or teach if those people are killed. Almost all foreign health care workers working on major projects have been pulled from the south and research & treatment projects have been cancelled. Peace is nice, but keeping people safe and alive is also important.

My objection to the Ukrainian purchase is that the design is out of date by about 5-10 years. Flat bottom vehicles offer minimal protection against IEDs. (That's why the Bradleys are just as useless). Everyone knows that a V shaped vehicle is best suited to theaters of war where IEDs are used. When the Canadians started getting blown up en masse in Afghanistan despite their LAVs and Coyotes, they dragged their German Leopard tanks out of mothballs and begged and borrowed South African built Nyalas from the Dutch (i believe). The US had the same experience in Iraq where the much touted Stryker with its flat bottom was a rolling coffin. It's why General Dynamics was given rush orders to build its rolling V designs. There are only a handful of manufacturers of battlefield proven IED resistant vehicles with 2 in the USA, 1 in Canada, 1 in Israel and of course the South Africans.

Pennywise, pound foolish decision.

I can guarantee that there will be an attrition rate of at least 10-25% once the vehicles are put in use. When the vehicles are lost, the military will be hesitant to use them for fear of further losses and the purchase will have been useless.

Have you ever seen a Bradely take and IED hit? I have and there aren't too many other vehicles that I would rather be in. The Bradley is effective against most IEDs but is not cost effective in mass transportation mode. Yes, the higher up the vehicle the better but with introduction of shapped-charges that is starting to become effective. As for the Stryker, only one has been fully to IED strike and the insurgents have given it a nickname of "Silent Death" because it is a fairly quiet vehicle and scares the Hummus out of them. There was not a rush order, if you mean the Buffalos, it was there when I was last there about a 1.5 years ago in its testing stage. It is a great improvement for IEDs but not as effective against shapped-charges that aimed at the side of the vehicles. The Bradley and the Stryker with the cage (chicken-wire) attachment to force shaped charges (and of course RPGs, mosly 7s), to explode before striking the armor. If the shaped-charge can't strike the side directly of those two vehicles than it is most likely not going to penetrate. The Bradley is the premier IFV out there (they had to learn from its early and disastrous testing period) and the with the addition of several more Stryker Brigades that vehicle is also proving its worth. You won't find a major operation in Iraq that isn't being led by the Strykers. That is in to stark contrast with the main Marin IFV (the Duck) which IS a rolling coffin.

[gbt71fa]

More than $1 mil each for those 8-wheeled APCs?

That's almost as much as older Bradley costs.

The Thais got ripped off - by probably 30-40%.

Right, the original BTR concept as an amphibious assault vehicle (much like the Marines main IFV) and is not suited for urban warfare or sustained combat. Its job is to drop off the troops and get the heck out of there. I'm thinking somebody in the Thai military made a nice little commision on this one...

[gbt71fa]

Soldiers need protection, period.

Thailand doesn't produce armoured pickups and US Bradleys are far more expensive, I suspect.

Consitution draft not translated in Malay dialect - nothing unusual, it's not an official language yet.

My friend , look at what is happening to the US forces in Iraq , the Iraqi resistence are blowing up the Abrahams tanks and destroying them , with road side bombs , so dont expect a light armoured vehicule to provide any kind of protection to road side bombs .

The only solution to the south crisis is through dialogue , because whenever you have a resistance force , the harder you hit them the more harder they will hit you back .

Only two U.S. tanks have been complete lost in Iraq, get your facts straight. Dialogue has never, in the histroy of mankind worked with extemists. Yes, many of our tanks have been hit but they are usally back in service. The M1A1 Abrhams is designed to take for IEDs as its original concept was to fight on the plains of Germany against the Soviet Union which was expected to rely heavily on landmines if war erupted. Just because you want to star "Hug a Terrorist Day" don't use faulty facts to make yourself look stupid. Ask Spain how everything has been in Spain since they have left Iraq. Considering U.S. vehicles are hit on a daily basis, how many times a day do you hear of a U.S. vehicle is lost? And now, the military wouldn't keep that a secret because the media would not let them. I will support you if you want to go talk to the muzzies down south and I will even hold your wallet for you...

[ilyushin]

The deployment process will be completed before the end of September. Currently undergoing a Statement of Mutual Understanding for acceptance. Deal needs to be closed before the end of the current CnC post.

[JAG]

96 vehicles does not amount to much, it will just equip two Battalions, with nothing to spare for replacements.

The BTR, based upon a 1970s Soviet design, is really only a battlefield taxi, designed to move infantry across the open plains and good roads of north west Europe. As a patrol vehicle for an urban or jungle environment it is of limited use, troops have to expose themselves out of the top hatches in order to see and use their weapons, and it is vulnerable to mines and IEDs, (the Soviets lost a lot of vehicles, and more to the point, a lot of men in BTRs in Afghanistan).

$118 Million would however go a long way towards training the Royal Thai Army to conduct an effective Counter Insurgency Campaign - remember that TV footage of an ambush a couple of months ago, with the young officer lying in the middle of the road talking into his radio! If you have a radio it identifies you as a commander, use it in the open as he was and you make yourself the no 1 target, get hit and your troops, young conscripts, won't know what to do and will become casualties themselves. Wasn't his fault, I doubt anyone had taught him.

I don't pretend to suggest a political solution to the South, but as a retired soldier, with considerable experience of this sort of soldiering, the military answer is constant covert and overt foot patrolling, snap vehicle check points and lots of observation. This stops the terrorists from being able to move around, disrupts their ability to accumulate weapons and recce and prepare for attacks. It needs a lot of troops,(not a problem with a conscript army), and well trained and effective commanders at Junior NCO and Junior Officer level. It doesn't need shiny new APCs!

The kit the Royal Thai Army has at the moment is adequate, although more use of helmets and body armour would be good, they saves lives!

What they need is the training and leadership. Then the terrorists will be frustrated, and if their operations are closed down they are more likely to talk, and the boys will be able to go home in one piece after national service. 96 shiny APCs won't achieve this, (they would be jolly usefull in any future coups though.)