Lucid Dreaming

[Yooyung]

Good day to you all,

This is my first post on the forum. I have read with interest many posts dealing with buddhism, meditation and the like, however I havent found anything that touches on this particular topic.

I have a question.

Considering that the goal of meditation is to reach a state of inifinite nothingness where does the art of dreaming with lucidity fit in? I have reached a state now where I can virtually become lucid at will when dreaming. This experience has been life altering ( sorry if that sounds a little over the top) Its hard to describe to people who have never experienced this state just how totally amazing it really is. If you are interested in control of the mind then I dont see how you could go much past achieving control of a state in which, untill not too long ago was considered to basically be unconcioussness.

Ok, I am rambling a bit.I hope you know what I am getting at.

[chownah]

I hope you know what I am getting at

Yooyung,

I really don't know what you are trying to get at. Could you tell us exactly what this ability has done for you?....how it has affected your life?....how it relates to mediation?....do you meditate regularly? It is interesting that you can become lucid at will when dreaming but I have no idea at all what this means or its implications....seems like it would be fun though.

Chownah

[Austhaied]

Being lucid while awake is far more fun. This may explain. http://www.mahindarama.com/e-library/31planes4.htm

Or maybe not.

[sutnyod]

I learned lucid dreaming too (but the Tibetan method does not work for me). However, I was recommended to do it not too often, well it was more like a warning really. The essence: if you are in a world where you have total control about everything that can be very addictive and also make the real world less attractive to you. But the challenges are HERE, in THIS world and not in your phantasy.

[seonai]

Yooyung you really ought to be speaking to a meditation master about this. Some people literally lose their mind if doing it alone

[rafval]

Good day to you all,

This is my first post on the forum. I have read with interest many posts dealing with buddhism, meditation and the like, however I havent found anything that touches on this particular topic.

I have a question.

Considering that the goal of meditation is to reach a state of inifinite nothingness where does the art of dreaming with lucidity fit in? I have reached a state now where I can virtually become lucid at will when dreaming. This experience has been life altering ( sorry if that sounds a little over the top) Its hard to describe to people who have never experienced this state just how totally amazing it really is. If you are interested in control of the mind then I dont see how you could go much past achieving control of a state in which, untill not too long ago was considered to basically be unconcioussness.

Ok, I am rambling a bit.I hope you know what I am getting at.

to me, and this isnt a buddhist view, dreams may or may not be fantasy, but it is part of my experience and just as valid as any other, I would guess that its important to be fully aware weather in this world or dreaming

[Brucenkhamen]

Ok, I am rambling a bit.I hope you know what I am getting at.

I've never heard of such a thing being an objective, nor a by-product, of meditation.

I have experienced what you could call I suppose lucid sleeping when on intensive meditaion retreats, but that's all about balance of the mind and awareness of the body, no dreaming.

I'd be interested to know in what way it improves your life.

If you really want to pursue this I'd recommend discussing it with a good teacher.

[cm das]

Considering that the goal of meditation is to reach a state of inifinite nothingness where does the art of dreaming with lucidity fit in?

This is a very debatable description of the reason for Buddhist meditation. I think for many Buddhists, meditation is a means to develop increased awareness. In that context, lucidity seems like a good thing. But of course it all depends on what you do with this awareness or ability. If you use it to feed the ego or pursue cravings & reinforce attachments, well that's obviously counter-productive from a Buddhist point of view. If you use this to develop further awareness of the nature of your own experience, then it sounds like a good thing to me. In essence, it's no different from waking life, although with enhanced abilities to control your environment available in the lucid dream state, I guess it could be more risky in terms of temptation, ego, etc.

[Yooyung]

Hello all,

Well, i've read with interest all the replies and now its time for me to add my 2 bobs worth again.

I like the 'increased awareness' bit. I would say that being able to be fully concious of just what is going on in your brain ( mind, soul...) while you are in a state that, even now noboby really understands is within the realms ( forgive me for taking liberties) of being 'aware'.

Theres a lot of hairy fairy stuff floating around about just what it means to be 'aware'

If you have found it while sitting on your backside while thinking about nothing then I congratulate you. Its easy to think that the world is something that can pass you by, something that can be dealt with later, just a process that neednt be dealt with just yet....

The point is that 'Buddha' or whoever he was was just a fellah, like you and me.Apparently he went through some kind of catharsis, some kind of cleansing of his mind and body ( and I mean mind , body and nothing else) He sat under some trees, he lay here and he sat there. He did a lot of what in the west we call 'meditation' its a bit of a bum term as far as I am concerned because all it really means is...... well re - read what I have already stated.

The guy basically reached a state where he became fully aware of who he was, where he'd come from and where he needed to go. Not by any other means than escaping from the everday confines of accepted reality. This IS the state of being fully in control of your own mind WHICH DEFINATELY NEEDS TO INCLUDE THE DREAMSTATE.

If you do not incorparate that part of your mind into your everyday waking conciousness then how can you really say that you are 'aware'. Sure, you may be aware off what is happening around you at any given time within the space of what is deemed to be 'normal concious awareness' but how is that measured? Did Buddha tell you?

I percieve, I react and therefore I am. Thats the way life goes...is it?

[jumnien]

I hear there are some new medications to treat lucid dreaming. Just kidding! Do be careful and always have a mentor or teacher to help you. I've had a few friends have frightening psychotic breaks going it alone.

[sutnyod]

I hear there are some new medications to treat lucid dreaming. Just kidding! Do be careful and always have a mentor or teacher to help you. I've had a few friends have frightening psychotic breaks going it alone.

But this is also true for some kinds of meditation, isn't it? Not in the beginning stages, but later for the more advanced....when there are visions.... when you discover abilities you never thought you had...?

[jumnien]

Sure, buddha dharma sangha. Have a teacher and a spiritual community. Going it alone in spiritual matters is dangerous. You are up against a formidable opponent - your mind. Alone, you have no chance.

[seonai]

Sutnyod I remember a bit of this and I think it goes like this. Start practising and build up the time you do it. Once you've reached a certain level of concentration you start to see 'nimits' and you feel very peaceful. My teacher told us not to follow the 'nimits' just to acknoledge them as 'thinking' or 'seeing' and carry on observing the breath at the abdomen. Agree with what other peeps have said about it being dangerous without a teacher though. It's imperative

[Brucenkhamen]

The guy basically reached a state where he became fully aware of who he was, where he'd come from and where he needed to go. Not by any other means than escaping from the everday confines of accepted reality. This IS the state of being fully in control of your own mind WHICH DEFINATELY NEEDS TO INCLUDE THE DREAMSTATE.

If you do not incorparate that part of your mind into your everyday waking conciousness then how can you really say that you are 'aware'. Sure, you may be aware off what is happening around you at any given time within the space of what is deemed to be 'normal concious awareness' but how is that measured? Did Buddha tell you?

The thing is, for most people developing awareness in their day to day activities is a lifetime activity, it's something that develops over a lifetime of patience and dedication to the goal.

Now you come along tell people that if they are not aware during their dreamstate then their awareness is not good enough for you, and not good enough for the Buddha.

So if we are to re-direct our efforts from developing awareness of the waking state to developing awareness of the dreamstate we are going to need to know the benefits.

So please do share how this approach has benefited you personally.

[Yooyung]

Hello again,

Sorry about that last reply. I went out played snooker and got a teeny bit wipsy. Having said that though I do still agree with most of what I said in that state ( thank god I dont drink like that too often)

If I seemed like a bit of a dick then its probably because I was.

Ok, again this morning I was able to induce fully lucid dreams on 3 seperate occasions. I am not going to go into details as they are personal. All I can say is during the experiences I am as aware of my immediate surrounds as I am in normal waking states. Now, I understand the concept of 'mindfulness' being incorparated into the waking state but what about also having that level of awareness in the dream state?

I have read a reasonable amount of literature about buddha/buddhism. Didnt he sit under a tree some considerable amount of time and battle the 'demons' in his head? I think that possibly what he is talking about IS the state of being lucid while dreaming. Its a part of us all.I think that as part of his ordeal he,as a natural progression of being mindful was also able to have complete awareness of other states ( unless you believe the buddha didnt sleep) one of those states that CAN be controlled is the dreamstate.

I dont want to harp on about it too much though. I respect buddhism and actually would call myself a humanist with slight buddhist leanings. It just seems to me that concious awareness of the dreamstate is all part of being 'mindful' Its all very well to be mindful of your waking life, watching the postman etc why cant it also used as a tool while dreaming?

Oh, i'm harping on about it again.....

Anyway. Has anyone else out there been able to reach this state with consistancy? If you have then I would like to hear about it, as everyone else I talk with about it to looks at me a bit strangley... some a bit like maybe they think I have lost it. I actually think I've found it!

[Yooyung]

As for the benefits.....

Well I dont see how one could not think that it may be of benefit to be aware of that particular state. We all sleep away years of our lives dreaming but not being aware of the fact that a dream is as much a part of us as is our perceptions of everyday life.

Personally I get a great amount of joy from my lucid dreams. I can, if I wish take a certain amount of control over the dream and what occurs. Most of the time I just let it flow and I dont interefere. Its enough to be fully concious and enjoy it. You can basically explore the hidden realms of your mind. Yes, its a bit scary at times but I am a big boy now and afterall my mind is MY MIND and if I am scared of anything I can choose to confront it or leave it.

Actually the first time I had a lucid dream was when I was about 22. I was being chased down the country lane near my parents house by a werewolf. It was scaring the shit out of my untill something clicked and I realised I was dreaming. I was then able to turn the horrible creature into my girlfriend and the dream took a decidedly more positive path.

In short I find it one of the most positive 'skills' ( for want of a better word) that I have been able to master in my life. I look forward to my dreams. I havent totally lost it though there is a distinct difference between the states of being fully awake and aware and being fully asleep and aware. I can most certainly tell the difference.

In one of my lucid dreams this morning I was in a room, maybe someones bedroom. I closed the door as there was a lot of noise coming from outside, I locked it as well. In the room there was a mirror. Now, I remember reading that looking into mirrors at yourself while in a dream will produce a representation that is far from convincing. I remember thinking 'heres my chance to find out' I went over to the mirror looked into it, it was me alright but not really. I was distorted. My face was a slightly different shape. There was another mirror so I decided to compare, but it was the same deal.

Anyway that was one little experiment.

Again. Have any of you mastered this state? I feel it is a positive thing. AS for being dangerous well.... sorry I cant see that at all. How can being fully aware of your sub concious mind be negative? I think its just a natural progression, something we are all born with ,and perhaps forget. If there are any demons to face then they are fully a creation of my own imagination which I am fully in control of.

[Brucenkhamen]

Sorry about that last reply. I went out played snooker and got a teeny bit wipsy. Having said that though I do still agree with most of what I said in that state ( thank god I dont drink like that too often)

If I seemed like a bit of a dick then its probably because I was.

No need to apologise, but the obvious conclusion from that is that you'd be better off putting your efforts into working on improving lucidity in your day to day life (as we all would), rather than your dreamstate.

[garro]

I have had the lucid dream experience before but tried to avoid reading too much into it. My meditation practice has shown me how little control I have over my waking thoghts nevermind my dreaming ones.

[Brucenkhamen]

As for the benefits.....

Well I dont see how one could not think that it may be of benefit to be aware of that particular state. We all sleep away years of our lives dreaming but not being aware of the fact that a dream is as much a part of us as is our perceptions of everyday life.

Personally I get a great amount of joy from my lucid dreams. I can, if I wish take a certain amount of control over the dream and what occurs. Most of the time I just let it flow and I dont interefere. Its enough to be fully concious and enjoy it. You can basically explore the hidden realms of your mind. Yes, its a bit scary at times but I am a big boy now and afterall my mind is MY MIND and if I am scared of anything I can choose to confront it or leave it.

The first question that comes to mind is do you consider the content of your dreams significant, as if they are trying to tell you something in some kind of new age Shirley Maclaine kind of way, you don't appear to be saying that.

From the Buddhist point of view if you are aware of a dreamstate arising, aware of a dreamstate passing away, away of the impersonal nature of the dreamstate, aware of the unsatisfying nature of a dreamstate... then yes you are progressing along the Buddhist path in this area.

I do believe, from my small experience, that developing a high level of awareness in your day to day life leads to more lucidity around your mindstates, and dreaming is one of those. As to the notion it's worth pursuing as a goal in it's own right... it doesn't really make sense to me.

[Brucenkhamen]

I have had the lucid dream experience before but tried to avoid reading too much into it. My meditation practice has shown me how little control I have over my waking thoghts nevermind my dreaming ones.

A very good point.

[thaicurious]

yooyung, born a lucid dreamer i have almost 50 years of experience in such matters. if your interest is to incorporate your lucid dreaming within a buddhist framework, might i suggest you study tibetan buddhism in general and dzogchen in particular. the tibetans have been studying dreaming in a systematic way for more than 1000 years.

a few books you might find helpful are "sleeping dreaming & dying" (sort of) by the dalai lama; "the tibetan yogas of dream & sleep" by tenzin wangyal (not my favorite but there are not so many books on the subject); "tibetan yoga and secret doctrines" w.y. evans-wentz translation; also by evans-wentz is "the tibetan book of the great liberation."

might i also suggest you study how lucid dreaming is considered in the west, particularly by the works of stephen laberge. and you might also look into other cultures such as the toltecs by way of carlos castaneda and others.

sweet dreams.

[autonomous_unit]

I'm probably close to being off topic for this forum, but the OP asked for replies from lucid dreamers...

I often have them, and cannot remember when in childhood I first realized it. I guess it was around kindergarten age, when I stopped being frightened by "nightmares". However, I would not claim to know what percentage are lucid... I've often suspected that I am a biased observer who would mostly remember the lucid ones... as a kid, I used to enjoy controlling these dreams to fly around and otherwise do unnatural things that only made sense in a dream. Now, I tend to follow more mundane scenarios and sort of drift into a third-person view of steering a character through the dream "simulation" of real life. It's really not much different than daydreaming for me, except it is happening during sleep.

During stressful periods in my life (work deadlines etc.) I have recurring "spy movie" dreams which I suppose are about the same psychological state as playing a "laser tag" game, but with better special effects. I also have recurring dreams where I try to continue my real-life work on computers, and like the mirror experience I find the visual simulation distorted and abstract; I can never read the text clearly on the screen, though I can sometimes ignore that and "know" what is being displayed anyway. (I think dreams are usually abstract and will fall apart if you try to focus too much on the sensory details.)

I am not sure what Yooyung is on about regarding heightened awareness. I'm aware that it is a dream, but I'm not convinced that this brings any better awareness of myself, i.e. the self that is observing and aware of the dream state. That requires a completely different kind of introspection which I find no easier nor more difficult in a dream than in waking life.

[thaicurious]

From the Buddhist point of view if you are aware of a dreamstate arising, aware of a dreamstate passing away, away of the impersonal nature of the dreamstate, aware of the unsatisfying nature of a dreamstate... then yes you are progressing along the Buddhist path in this area.

that very much describes one particular practice in dream yoga whereby the dreamer maintains consciousness while putting the body to sleep (most lucid dreamers fall into unconsciousness while the body falls asleep and then their consciousness awakens during a dream which they find in progress). the practice then continues to create a dream from no dream. then the dreamer works within the dream, controling dream elements and destroying dream elements. then the dreamer destroys the dream entirely and creates a new dream. then the dreamer destroys that dream and re-awakens the body, all without losing consciousness. talk about fun times.

[thaicurious]

I am not sure what Yooyung is on about regarding heightened awareness. I'm aware that it is a dream, but I'm not convinced that this brings any better awareness of myself, i.e. the self that is observing and aware of the dream state. That requires a completely different kind of introspection which I find no easier nor more difficult in a dream than in waking life.

good point. who is to say that just because a person is conscious during a dream, like being conscious during the waking state, that the person is any more aware. perhaps a lucid dream might simply be another opportunity to sit and meditate.

[sunshine4you]

As for the benefits.....

Well I dont see how one could not think that it may be of benefit to be aware of that particular state. We all sleep away years of our lives dreaming but not being aware of the fact that a dream is as much a part of us as is our perceptions of everyday life.

Personally I get a great amount of joy from my lucid dreams. I can, if I wish take a certain amount of control over the dream and what occurs. Most of the time I just let it flow and I dont interefere. Its enough to be fully concious and enjoy it. You can basically explore the hidden realms of your mind. Yes, its a bit scary at times but I am a big boy now and afterall my mind is MY MIND and if I am scared of anything I can choose to confront it or leave it.

Actually the first time I had a lucid dream was when I was about 22. I was being chased down the country lane near my parents house by a werewolf. It was scaring the shit out of my untill something clicked and I realised I was dreaming. I was then able to turn the horrible creature into my girlfriend and the dream took a decidedly more positive path.

In short I find it one of the most positive 'skills' ( for want of a better word) that I have been able to master in my life. I look forward to my dreams. I havent totally lost it though there is a distinct difference between the states of being fully awake and aware and being fully asleep and aware. I can most certainly tell the difference.

In one of my lucid dreams this morning I was in a room, maybe someones bedroom. I closed the door as there was a lot of noise coming from outside, I locked it as well. In the room there was a mirror. Now, I remember reading that looking into mirrors at yourself while in a dream will produce a representation that is far from convincing. I remember thinking 'heres my chance to find out' I went over to the mirror looked into it, it was me alright but not really. I was distorted. My face was a slightly different shape. There was another mirror so I decided to compare, but it was the same deal.

Anyway that was one little experiment.

Again. Have any of you mastered this state? I feel it is a positive thing. AS for being dangerous well.... sorry I cant see that at all. How can being fully aware of your sub concious mind be negative? I think its just a natural progression, something we are all born with ,and perhaps forget. If there are any demons to face then they are fully a creation of my own imagination which I am fully in control of.

Hi There,

Well, Im sure this really goes off the buddhist topic. But has anyone ever told you, that you may be experiencing astro projection? I have been able to control lucid dreaming most of my life, although that is a metaphysical practice i have let go of in recent years. I found no useful purpose for it in my everyday life, and have never thought it close to my meditation practice. I believe these are two very separate issue, but that is just my opinion. I wish I could find my meditation practice as easy, as I did my roaming in a lucid dream. I find it much more difficult, and much more useful to work toward "awareness" when awake. I wish you luck in your venture, but as others have stated...whether meditive or metaphysic...a good teacher is needed, it is a dangerous tool.

Sunshine...

[tracker]

Twice had a lucid dream. And they happened recently. I have no teacher but i've read a lot on the subject from many angles (cultures). To my opinion, developing full awareness, is our goal of existence. Dreams and lucid ones are a big help. They contain messages and can be used to develop awareness.

I do not meditate, buddist style, but try under normal daily life proceedings to keep an empty mind. Like when driving a car. For several years already. My awareness grows slowly but steadily...

I do not push for more lucid dreaming. It will come by itself when i am ready, although the dreams were mighty "visions" of some sort and I wish they would last longer and appear more often... They will come.... one day.

[Yooyung]

Hello all,

I am glad to see this thread is still chugging along.

I have been having lucid dreams pretty consistently for the past couple of days. This morning I dropped my wife at the front of the village ( at 6:30 a bloody m) came straight back home, got back into bed and proceeded in having some pretty wierd lucid dreams.

I know listening to other peoples dreams might be a tad boring, but the one I had this morning ( considering I was fully lucid and aware that it was not reality) is perhaps worth mentioning.

I awoke in my bedroom, went over to the window and at that point realised that I was dreaming. I said to myself " this is a dream, so by rights I should be able to pass straight through the window onto the otherside" I did so and as I did the glass took on a jelly like form. I had to push my way through this substance and when I finally did I was left standing outside covered in it. I even had to get some out of my eye.

I stood outside what was not infact my moobaan at all but surrounded by a blocks and blocks of apartment buildings. Coming out of and going back into other apartment builidings were hordes of people staring straight ahead, looking as though they were mindlessly being driven by some outside force ( me, I suppose) At this point I was definitely still lucid so I decided to go the entrance of one of the apartment buildings and confront one of these seemingly mindless creatures to see if it was willing or able to have a chat.

I stood outside and one fellow ( who looked familiar ) walked straight into me as though he didnt see me or as though I didnt even exhist. Funny thing is, like character in a playstation game he just kept on moving his legs as I kept him stationary with one hand. I looked into his eyes but they were blank, dead. I got a bit pissed off ( for what reason I dont know) and I decided to shake him,shout at him and try to knock some life into him. As I did so the penny dropped and this thing looked straight at me and asked " what do you want?" I asked him who he was and if he was in any sense real. He told me that he, and all the others were real and that I should try to get into contact with some guy called 'Lambargo' as apparently he could shed some more light on the whole thing. I then woke up.

Now, I a bit of an atheist/humanist and I dont believe that my experience in that dream has any real relevance to my life aside from the fact that it was an amusing and in some way satisfying. Others would probably beg to differ. I am not going to try to contact a guy called 'Lambargo' ...... I dont think.

Anyway, do you think I'm wierd?

[chownah]

Yooyung,

At first you were talking about how you had benefitted from your lucid dreaming...now you are relating stories which you yourself say probably have no relevance to your life. You are correct that hearing people relate their dreams is mostly a boring thing for most people. I'm wantilng to know how your lucid dreaming has impacted your life...how you have benefitted from it. Its starting to sound like this is just something that is fun that you like to talk about and that saying you have benefitted from it is just a way for you to broach the subject so you can then relate some of your lucid dreaming experiences.....but maybe I'm wrong about this and you will talk a bit about the benefits and impacts on your life....like you were saying when you started this topic.

Chownah

[sunshine4you]

Hi There,

Well, Im sure this really goes off the buddhist topic. But has anyone ever told you, that you may be experiencing astro projection? I have been able to control lucid dreaming most of my life, although that is a metaphysical practice i have let go of in recent years. I found no useful purpose for it in my everyday life, and have never thought it close to my meditation practice. I believe these are two very separate issue, but that is just my opinion. I wish I could find my meditation practice as easy, as I did my roaming in a lucid dream. I find it much more difficult, and much more useful to work toward "awareness" when awake. I wish you luck in your venture, but as others have stated...whether meditive or metaphysic...a good teacher is needed, it is a dangerous tool.

Sunshine...

[Brucenkhamen]

Anyway, do you think I'm wierd?

No, I suspect you're probably just bored.