Does anyone have any pronunciation details for ต as compared to ด , such as those offered in pronouncing ง

"Place of articulation

Manner of articulation

The sound of ง is pronounced with the tongue touching the soft palate (that is the place of articulation), and it is pronounced by expelling air through the nasal cavity (that's the manner of articulation)...................etc."

I've tried all the existing hints on pronouncing the letters...........I've failed (according to my 'teacher'). I need exact mouth, tongue, nasal (if any) details. Any help appreciated.

Does anyone have any pronunciation details for ต as compared to ด , such as those offered in pronouncing ง

"Place of articulation

Manner of articulation

The sound of ง is pronounced with the tongue touching the soft palate (that is the place of articulation), and it is pronounced by expelling air through the nasal cavity (that's the manner of articulation)...................etc."

I've tried all the existing hints on pronouncing the letters...........I've failed (according to my 'teacher'). I need exact mouth, tongue, nasal (if any) details. Any help appreciated.

I'd say that with the ด the tongue hits the front part of the palate; the ต requires the tongue to touch the back of the upper teeth (or, to even be between the upper and lower teeth, lightly biting the tongue).

You can get both sounds starting with the tip of the tongue at the same position, right behind the front teeth as mangkorn says. I also notice the difference to my English /d/ is* that the tongue is a.) closer to the front teeth, or even touching them, and b.) the whole front of the tongue lies snugly against the ridge behind the front teeth, whereas with my English /d/ the tongue is further back, and the tip is a bit more tense, and does not so much rest against as it touches the back of the ridge.

I think another difference lies more in what happens afterwards.

ด is voiced (there is a tone resonating through the glottis) whereas the ต is unvoiced.

I also seem to build up more pressure before releasing the tongue seal with ต as opposed to ด.

You should be able to start by saying 'stop' and notice where your tongue is and does with the second sound in that word.

It is distinctly different from 'top' (or 'dop', even though that does not exist).

*Note that I am not a native speaker of English and therefore I may pronounce /d/ differently from native speakers, although it definitely is not the same as my Swedish /d/. If by my description of English /d/ you think that I am off the mark, then please disregard those points.

You can get both sounds starting with the tip of the tongue at the same position, right behind the front teeth as mangkorn says. I also notice the difference to my English /d/ is* that the tongue is a.) closer to the front teeth, or even touching them, and b.) the whole front of the tongue lies snugly against the ridge behind the front teeth, whereas with my English /d/ the tongue is further back, and the tip is a bit more tense, and does not so much rest against as it touches the back of the ridge.

I think another difference lies more in what happens afterwards.

ด is voiced (there is a tone resonating through the glottis) whereas the ต is unvoiced.

I also seem to build up more pressure before releasing the tongue seal with ต as opposed to ด.

You should be able to start by saying 'stop' and notice where your tongue is and does with the second sound in that word.

It is distinctly different from 'top' (or 'dop', even though that does not exist).

*Note that I am not a native speaker of English and therefore I may pronounce /d/ differently from native speakers, although it definitely is not the same as my Swedish /d/. If by my description of English /d/ you think that I am off the mark, then please disregard those points.

That's a much more comprehensive explanation, and a good one. I just tried your suggestion with the ด - even the English equivalent - and you're right: the position isn't the main element there; it's what happens afterward. You can get the same sound even when the tongue starts in different positions. Never thought about that before. I learned US English, and I think in many ways the North Americans have a "lazy tongue" and leave it further back in the mouth for a lot of words.

Being a Latin American, I find the ต to be easy as I lightly bite the tip of the tongue as we do when pronouncing the Spanish "d" in the middle of a word.

Thanks for the quick replies. I'll put the hints/suggestions to the test in my next class.

ด, ต and ท/ถ are very similar in that all involve the tongue pressing against the back of the teeth.

Here are the differences:

ด is the sound of D as in dog. The D is 'voiced' - i.e. you vibrate the vocal chords (eughhh) as you release the tongue.

ต is like the T in stomach. No air passes as you release the tongue away from the teeth when forming the T sound. This is hard for English people to say, so either think of 'stomach', or consider saying an unvoiced D when making this sound.

And ท and ถ are the fully 'aspirated' T as in tear. You force out air from your mouth as you release the T.

In the Read Thai in a Day system, ด is a man doubled over, ต is the same man after an hour and his stomach is starting to sag. ท is a tortoise and ถ is a chicken with an ingrown toenail.