Buddhism And Social Mores

[toptuan]

This is the first time I've lived in a society permeated with this much religion, particularly a "majority" religion such as Buddhism. Visiting a Thai prison today, I was most intrigued to find out that prisoners can negotiate an early release if they agree to enter the monkhood. Government and religion are amazingly intertwined here. I'm sure it's only amazing to me, having come from a "separate-church-and-state" western country (not always perfectly practiced, but at least codified in the constitution and laws.)

At the same time, I've never lived in such a culture where "might makes right." From the current gov't. which rules only because it has the guns; to the 4x4 SUV vehicle drivers who terrorize and run roughshod (sometimes literally) over motorcyclists, simply because they're bigger and faster; to bejeweled Kuhn Pooying who bullies her way to the front of the 7-11 queue because of her obvious social status; it pervades all levels of society. Even more disturbingly, it seems like the average guy kowtows to these "mighty rulers."

My question: How much does religion influence culture in this country? Especially in the area of giving deference to others as an act of politeness or even goodwill? I'm not Buddhist, but I'm sure (as in most major religions) there are teachings which address this issue.

If the answer is "not much" (which I suspect), then why the disconnect? Please don't answer this by trying to take pot-shots at current western culture & Christianity, as the most cursory glance at these societies reveals that these countries don't support or encourage the practice of religion any where near the level we see and experience in Thailand.

Your thoughts?

[chownah]

I guess it shows that supporting and encouraging the practice of religion doesn't make people take it any more seriously.

Chownah

[Brucenkhamen]

I find it pretty sad that while most Thais have some understanding of Buddhism in the back of their conciousness there is very little living according to the principals.

The merit making industry that the religion has become far more important than what the Buddha taught.

Thais aren't the only ones, for example Chinese will go to a Buddhist temple one day and a Taoist the next and they have a superstition for every occasion, Indians seem to have a deity for every occasion. Nothing to do with the liberation that the teachings handed down to them from the past points to.

Unfortunately, most people stick with what they know and don't question it, in the West this is much less common thank goodness. But it still exists, if somebody grows up in a poor family despite the educational opportunities in the West chances are they will continue with the same habits that made their parents poor, because that's what they know, they don't expect anything else.

In the west we value things like egalitarianism, sustainability, ecology, equal opportunity, and honesty and when we practice Buddhism these things come to the fore because what we see in the Buddhas teaching resonates with what we see as important.

In Thai culture these things aren't important, maybe one day they will be.

[jumnien]

What west do you come from - we value sustainability, ecology and honest? equal opportunity? egalitarianism? I come from the US and we practice global destruction and a sense that we own the planet and all its resources. I think you are not looking for instances of the Buddha's teachings manifest here in Thailand, they are everywhere. I think you are concentrating on the areas where you don't see them or more precisely, labelling other people's actions as buddhist or non-buddhist according to your terms and judgement. I often do the same and it is painful.

[suegha]

People are people! Everywhere! Human nature is evident regardless of whether or not a country has religion, whether majority or not.

[IMA_FARANG]

This is the first time I've lived in a society permeated with this much religion, particularly a "majority" religion such as Buddhism. Visiting a Thai prison today, I was most intrigued to find out that prisoners can negotiate an early release if they agree to enter the monkhood. Government and religion are amazingly intertwined here. I'm sure it's only amazing to me, having come from a "separate-church-and-state" western country (not always perfectly practiced, but at least codified in the constitution and laws.)

At the same time, I've never lived in such a culture where "might makes right." From the current gov't. which rules only because it has the guns; to the 4x4 SUV vehicle drivers who terrorize and run roughshod (sometimes literally) over motorcyclists, simply because they're bigger and faster; to bejeweled Kuhn Pooying who bullies her way to the front of the 7-11 queue because of her obvious social status; it pervades all levels of society. Even more disturbingly, it seems like the average guy kowtows to these "mighty rulers."

My question: How much does religion influence culture in this country? Especially in the area of giving deference to others as an act of politeness or even goodwill? I'm not Buddhist, but I'm sure (as in most major religions) there are teachings which address this issue.

If the answer is "not much" (which I suspect), then why the disconnect? Please don't answer this by trying to take pot-shots at current western culture & Christianity, as the most cursory glance at these societies reveals that these countries don't support or encourage the practice of religion any where near the level we see and experience in Thailand.

Your thoughts?

1. If you were in a Thai jail (which is not very pleasent) wouldn't you be willing to take a chance on getting released even it meant you had to spend time as a monk for a while. It would be better than staying in jail, wouldn't it?

2. Not to be impolite, but how long have you been in Thailand? I don't want to start an arguement, but let's just say the relationship between the average Thai and Buddhisim is a complex subject which takes time to work out. To a Thai it just is "normal" to go to the temple and do merit making, they may respect Buddisim, but it just like a Catholic who only goes to church because that's what his parents made him do when he was young.

3. Now there are others who find a religous value in following Buddhist practices, and do it from there own desire and personal beliefs. Just like there are Catholics who go to church and keep fast over Lent.

4. People are the same around the world.

[toptuan]

1. If you were in a Thai jail (which is not very pleasent) wouldn't you be willing to take a chance on getting released even it meant you had to spend time as a monk for a while. It would be better than staying in jail, wouldn't it?

Duh! I don't question that for a moment. My point was that the Thai government chooses a religious institution as the approved channel through which prisoners can shorten a government-imposed sentence.

2. Not to be impolite, but how long have you been in Thailand? I don't want to start an arguement, but let's just say the relationship between the average Thai and Buddhisim is a complex subject which takes time to work out. To a Thai it just is "normal" to go to the temple and do merit making, they may respect Buddisim, but it just like a Catholic who only goes to church because that's what his parents made him do when he was young.

Been here five years. Hmm, maybe not enough to reach your level of insight? However, we could ask the same question about the Catholics, too, couldn't we? Why the disconnect? You still haven't touched the core of my question. You just said "it's complex." Thanks.

3. Now there are others who find a religous value in following Buddhist practices, and do it from there own desire and personal beliefs. Just like there are Catholics who go to church and keep fast over Lent.

...and what percentage of the population, would you estimate, follows Buddhist principles here? Most of the posters here seem to conclude "very few." Again, you missed the point. Why doesn't religion influence culture in a country where 99% of the population claims to follow "Lord"* Buddha and the government actively promotes it?

*"Lord" = this guy is my master and calls all the shots in my life

4. People are the same around the world.

It still steps sideways from my point that the "official support" of religion is not the same, the public support (temple on every corner, religious parades every week, merit making by public school students every month, etc.) is not the same, and the homogeneous nature of the religious population here is not the same as in the west. It seems that in this environment religion would influence culture more, not less than in the west.

Edited September 8, 2007 by toptuan

[Gimbo]

I don't even begin to understand Buddhism and Thailand in general.

I can only relate to religion in the west, as practiced in my country. Where 85% of the poulation are members of the Evangelical-Lutheran Church (Chirch of Norway). They are baptized and most kids choose to get confirmed. They get married in church and they are burried at a church cemitary when they die. All of these lifes "milestones" are conducted with some kind of church involvement.

Yet, less than 50% of the members of the church state that they actually belive in god. And about 5% attend church on a regular basis.

Then you take the portion that actually belive that there is a god in their heaven. Do they follow the ten commandments? Nope, not a single one of them I am willing to bet, including the priests and bishops.

I actually dead certain that most people, who subscribe to any kind of religion, or filosofy in the world, myself included, do not carry out their lives anywhere close to the teachings of their religions.

So why would the Thai be any different?

[geriatrickid]

The discharge of prisoners into the monkhood makes sense. Monks are supervised and must refrain from sex, drugs and sex. Usually folks in Thailand end up in jail due to drugs or alcohol. Keeping some of those people in prison only makes them more criminal.

It's not that much different than halfway houses in the west operated by the Salvation Army. Those folks are very religious and yet they will find a way to run shelters and 1/2wayhouses for "sinners".

On the subject of the merit making industry, it reminds me of the christian churches that used to sell absolution. A prince killed a man, no problem, pay 50 gold pieces to the cardinal and you were absolved. At least the Thai approach makes people strive to do good.

[toptuan]

I don't even begin to understand Buddhism and Thailand in general.

I can only relate to religion in the west, as practiced in my country. Where 85% of the poulation are members of the Evangelical-Lutheran Church (Chirch of Norway). They are baptized and most kids choose to get confirmed. They get married in church and they are burried at a church cemitary when they die. All of these lifes "milestones" are conducted with some kind of church involvement.

Yet, less than 50% of the members of the church state that they actually belive in god. And about 5% attend church on a regular basis.

Then you take the portion that actually belive that there is a god in their heaven. Do they follow the ten commandments? Nope, not a single one of them I am willing to bet, including the priests and bishops.

I actually dead certain that most people, who subscribe to any kind of religion, or filosofy in the world, myself included, do not carry out their lives anywhere close to the teachings of their religions.

So why would the Thai be any different?

Thanks for sharing this insight from your home country. The parallels are evident.

I spent four years in an area of the USA that was 95% Christian Reformed. The Christian Reformed private religious school system was bigger than the public school system. Somehow, public school buses were used to ferry Christian Reformed students to and from their private schools (talk about a mix of church & state!). There was a Christian Reformed church on every corner (a moderate-sized city, about the size of Khon Kaen). Absolutely NOTHING was open on Sunday (no restaurants, grocery stores, it was even hard to find a gas station!). It was the closest I ever came to living in a "state religion" environment.

The point, similar to Norway and Thailand: Interestingly, crime statistics were no different than in nearby Chicago (per capita statistics), and the rate of teen pregnancies showed no appreciable difference from other "non-reformed" communities. Other social problems like alcoholism and family abuse permeated the community.

I'm afraid that religion can easily be used to placate people in their wayward or selfish lifestyles. If you sin too much, just go make merit (that's a frequent comment I hear from my Thai friends). Heard the same in Christian Reformed country--"just ask Jesus to forgive you." ....and then carry on as normal. Not a real life-changing influence....

Edited September 8, 2007 by toptuan

[Brucenkhamen]

What west do you come from

New Zealand.

we value sustainability, ecology and honest? equal opportunity? egalitarianism? I come from the US and we practice global destruction and a sense that we own the planet and all its resources.

I was primarily comparing Western Buddhists with Thai Buddhists. While what you are saying may be true of governments and large corporations I think that's a bit off topic.

I think you are not looking for instances of the Buddha's teachings manifest here in Thailand, they are everywhere. I think you are concentrating on the areas where you don't see them or more precisely, labelling other people's actions as buddhist or non-buddhist according to your terms and judgement. I often do the same and it is painful.

While I've certainly seen good examples of the Buddhas teaching among Thais, examples certainly aren't everywhere in my experience, you really have to know where to go to find those kinds of people.

[trader1]

Here is someone who had a good experience in Thailand. I think it depends on kamma as to whether one meets the right or wrong people.

http://www.vipassana.info/buddhism_in_daily_life.htm

Buddhism In Daily Life

by Nina van Gorkom

This book was written in Thailand where I lived for some years. When I got to know the Thai people, I was impressed by their generosity. In Thailand one meets many people who do not set a limit to their generosity, be they rich or poor, and one is inspired to be more generous oneself. When one meets the Thais one notices their sincerity, their tolerance and their wise attitude towards the problems of life. I was also impressed by the earnestness and dedication of the monks who lead a life of simplicity, “contented with little”, and who try to realize the Buddhist teachings in their daily lives. When I visited the temples in Thailand, I saw Buddhism being lived in daily life.

Edited September 9, 2007 by trader1

[camerata]

My question: How much does religion influence culture in this country? Especially in the area of giving deference to others as an act of politeness or even goodwill? I'm not Buddhist, but I'm sure (as in most major religions) there are teachings which address this issue.

This question is dealt with in detail in the book Inside Thai Society by Niels Mulder. As I recall, Mulder says that although some Thai historians claim that Thais' deference to superiors and avoidance of criticism is due to Buddhism, in fact it isn't. It's just the way power structures developed in Thai society. However, it does fit very well with Buddhism.

If the answer is "not much" (which I suspect), then why the disconnect? Please don't answer this by trying to take pot-shots at current western culture & Christianity, as the most cursory glance at these societies reveals that these countries don't support or encourage the practice of religion any where near the level we see and experience in Thailand.

I tend to agree with Mulder. Thais are socialized to be deferential to superiors because not being deferential can be dangerous, but Buddhism reinforces the idea of putting others' concerns above one's own.

[camerata]

My point was that the Thai government chooses a religious institution as the approved channel through which prisoners can shorten a government-imposed sentence.

I don't think it's very surprising. When Thailand became a nation-state, only around 100 years ago, it had to find something to bind Thais together. That idea was "country, religion, monarchy" as symbolized by the three colours of the national flag. That's very different from, say, "democracy" or "rule of law." So it seems to me that Thais are expected to behave in an acceptable way because of Buddhist morality rather than because it's the law. I think this is why the government is so worried about the decline of Buddhism these days - because it has been seen as a better tool than the law for keeping people from crime.

...and what percentage of the population, would you estimate, follows Buddhist principles here? Most of the posters here seem to conclude "very few." Again, you missed the point. Why doesn't religion influence culture in a country where 99% of the population claims to follow "Lord"* Buddha and the government actively promotes it?

Because all over the world people take what they want from religion. In Thailand, people look to animism to make them feel good on a day to day basis, but they look to Buddhism to provide them with a fortunate next birth. And it's clearly laid out in the Pali Canon that making merit (i.e. donating to monastics) leads to a good rebirth. It's a lot easier to donate to monastics than, say, to never tell a lie or never kill a mosquito.

*"Lord" = this guy is my master and calls all the shots in my life

The Buddha was just a teacher, and he's dead now. He's not calling the shots in anyone's life in any personal way. The reason many Thais consider themselves to be devout Buddhists is because they make merit and because being a Buddhist is part of their cultural and national identity. Virtually all Thais make merit, so religion has influenced the culture in a big way.

[jamesc2000]

People are people! Everywhere! Human nature is evident regardless of whether or not a country has religion, whether majority or not.

You took the exact words right of my mouth!

So I really couldn't agree with you more!