3m Baht Investment Visa Not Fully Grandfathered

[PattayaParent]

When I came here 14 years ago I bought a condo and had an excess of 3 million in the bank and went to Immigration to inquire about the 3 million investment visa. They took one look at the Land Registry Office Sales/Tax receipt and said the valuation doesn't match the price you paid you can't get a visa.

So as far as I can see the law hasn't actually changed at all and there's really nothing for anyone to complain about.

Except that if the OP did pay the tax on 3.5 mill then he should still be entitled to the visa.

Conversely a mate bought a condo and paid less than the vlue registered at the Land Office and he had to pay the tax on the Land Office value.

[thaigene2]

The more I think about it, the more the objective should be for Thailand to realise we are the best ambassadors they have when it comes to helping the country sell its 'hospital tourism' plans etc...Don't p+ss us off, cajole us to help sell Thailand. That's the positive approach. Maybe we just need to get them to realize they have more to gain from us than lose..

If everyone is publicly bitching about how they got ripped off in Thailand, that would be very bad news. The appraoch needs to be thought through..

Edited September 20, 2007 by thaigene2

[Firefan]

Pattayaparent; I also recall that they wanted the tax payment receipt in my case in order to approve the initial application and following extensions.

So you are right that there is no "change in rules" as such, but one questions why he got extended multiple times then.

One also questions why the land office assesment has to be used, when the 3M baht visa was implemented in order to get foreign investments into Thailand after the Asian crises - should it not be the ACTUAL money brought in that counts then (as per the official gov. stamped sales contract) and not some artificial land office number?

In addition based on your input about your friend it seems that one could, in theory, request the land office price to be HIGHER than the sales price and thereby getting the visa with a condo purchased for much less than 3M.

Cheers!

[robint]

just another slap in the face for us, the despised flangs. it just gets worse week by week a new insult comes our way. will it ever stop, NOOOOOOO.

as history shows over the last 10 years look how much life has deteriorated for us reaonable flangs who want to live here quietly enjoying the autumn of our lives with thai spouse etc.

and its not just the burocracy, its the all pervasive attitude of envy, jealousy and outright hatred coupled with ignorance and unbelievable arrogance. (its taught in the schools btw - flangs = evil)

I am waiting for the time they mess with my visa, it will give me the impetus (and excuse) to decamp (probably to the phillipines)

When i think of the money i have spent over the years here and now to face the daily resentment, surrounded by [inappropriate text removed. /Admin]

give me a break.

[Dakhar]

just another slap in the face for us, the despised flangs. it just gets worse week by week a new insult comes our way. will it ever stop, NOOOOOOO.

as history shows over the last 10 years look how much life has deteriorated for us reaonable flangs who want to live here quietly enjoying the autumn of our lives with thai spouse etc.

and its not just the burocracy, its the all pervasive attitude of envy, jealousy and outright hatred coupled with ignorance and unbelievable arrogance. (its taught in the schools btw - flangs = evil)

I am waiting for the time they mess with my visa, it will give me the impetus (and excuse) to decamp (probably to the phillipines)

When i think of the money i have spent over the years here and now to face the daily resentment, surrounded by [inappropriate text removed. /Admin]

give me a break.

I look forward to that day. I am only here because my wife lives in a state of denial, and would rather be here than in the US. Like the life I provided her was horrible or something. Lets see, stay at home mother, put her through her Master degree program, married to a educated fellow, earns 6 figures, owns a house, BMW M3...

Ahh but life in Thailand is sooo much more better! Denial....

Hey Immigration, put your microscope on me please!

[fxe1200]

Thais having xenophobia? Really?!?

I've been here 6 months, and I have read a lot of websites about Thailand before and after arrival. I clearly see the racism. It's bad enough it's so rampant amoung their own people. Isaan people are considered low class, even with a good education and respectable job. Job applicants can only be 20-28 years of age, etc.

But that's besides the point.

I agree that finding a nice foreign country to live in on a permanent basis is ideal. I considered Cambodia, Vietnam, China, and Thailand before moving here.

I knew before I came that farangophobia was in existence. However, I think it's just the way it is in Asian countries. It's not like the USA, UK or Aussieland where there are all kinds of foreign immigrants.

No matter where we go, there is sure to be predjuduce. We will have to jump through hoops to appease the people in the lands we wish to stay. Thailand may be more oppressive on this front, but I would think they are all the same:

farang has money = can stay

farang has no money = go home

xenophobic Asian = go home anyway

Let some big economic disaster happen, and maybe they will relax their stance - but only for the short term.

Nothings perfect, but Thailand still seems better than the states. I guess that's why we all jump through the hoops to stay.

Now I just need to get 3M Baht for an investment visa. I'd be willing to accept many thousands of micro-loans form thaivisa forum members! Great returns on investment!

What do we learn from all these stories? Do not by a condo or house, rent one. As there is a lot of construction going on, and as Thais in general rather move to a newly developed area, instead of keeping their place in shape, rents are down and there are houses in abundance. I. e. a 200sqm house in Hat Yai will cost you 5.000 per month. The asking price for this house is 1,8 Mio. If the owner could sell the house for 1,5 Mio., the rent to be paid just equals 4%. Who can beat that? And no payment down, no hassle, no paperwork.

Furthermore, if the community where you are living is changing, due to a new pigfarm next door, or a new construction site with all the dust and noise involved, or whatever, you just move to a different spot, or even skip the country. Who knows what will be the next law aimed to make the living of a farang in Thailand more miserable?

[rwilli]

The way we are treated is surly third world. Laws are moving targets. They get us to buy here and then make it as hard as they can to stay. Why? They truly think all farangs can produce any amount of money they ask for at any time.

I am still here because of a compassionate Immigration officer. There are some. I am disabled and I think they/he took pity on me. A person changes their whole life and a year later they move the target beyond reach. I wonder what changes will happen with the new govt. Ron

[Firefan]

I agree that the current rent vs ownership ratio in Thailand seems to favor renting.

That is however not what this thread is about, and will not solve ones visa-challenges.

During/after the Asian crises foreigners bought condos based on a governmental promotion (tax reduction on sale was another part) that included a visa so the investor was guarenteed to actually be able to live in it.

Some years later (Oct 2006) the promotion was stopped (fair enuff - economy and real estate market improved) - and after a bit of confusion it was confirmed that the holders of investment visas would be "grandfathered" as long as they held the 3M Baht investment.

Worst thing about Logpoachers story is actually that he was not turned down in the first place when applied. And 2nd worst is that they did not then agree to grandfather him as they have done anyway for several extensions.

Cheers!

Edited September 20, 2007 by Firefan

[xxxarte]

I renew my investor visa this year in april for the 4 or 5 consecutive year without problems and in 2 hours in BKK.

But... I go a stamp on my dossier writing "NON R-E" what does it means?

[tropo]

I look forward to that day. I am only here because my wife lives in a state of denial, and would rather be here than in the US. Like the life I provided her was horrible or something.

Did you ever consider that maybe she likes living in Thailand with her family? You're playing her game.

[cosmont]

I have just returned from attempting to extend my permission to stay for another year, based on owning a condo worth more than 3M baht. As everyone probably knows, this was abolished for new applicants last year and intially it was stated that existing aliens in this category would also not be given any further extensions. However, after a lot of panic, this was changed and existing users were "grandfathered" in. Subsequently, I extended my permission to stay by one year.

Today, I was not expecting any trouble, but I was refused an extension. I was told that the law has changed and that they no longer consider the price you paid for the condo, but instead look at a price which is assessed by the government. On my receipt from the Land Registry these figures are given as ราคาทุนทรัพย์ 3,500,000 and ราคาประเมิน 2,270,000. Effectively, they now consider that my investment is 730,000 baht too low. If I put this amount in a bank account, they would give me permission to stay (initially they said I would have to put 3M baht in a bank account, but then one of them produced a procedural manual and decided that the investment does not have to be in one unit). They emphasised that this amount would have to stay permanently in the bank, and produced a letter in English to this effect.

I pointed out, and they agreed, that I have had four previous extensions granted on this basis but they stated again that "Immigration has changed the law" (this was said in English, twice).

Needless to say, I do not have a spare 730,000 baht which I can put in a bank and not touch for ever, so I now have 26 days left in Thailand to sort this out.

Has anyone encountered this problem or does anyone have any ideas?

This problem is not new and the law did not change this year.

I am curious to know where you applied your extension as this rule is currently applicable at Suan Plu since few years.

3 years ago, I applied for the 3 M Investment visa for my condo that I bought 4M Baht.

The estimated Value of the land department is around 2,75 M and I was requested an additional investment to reach the 3M.

I was very upset and I asked to meet the manager in charge. I explained to him that the rule was not clear and that I invested in Thailand really more than 3M.

I showed him the Bank transfer forms, Thor Tor 3, etc, then he gave some calls and I was granted !

The second year, I applied for extension of stay and they requested again 300.000B...

I claimed that the extension was grandfathered the year before but they said that I got a sort of "exception" and that the manager changed now...

So I opened a fixed bank account at OMSIN (front of Suan Plu), made the deposit and got bank certificate + copy book bank for immigration.

Every year, I should update the book bank and request the same certificate to show the money still here.

In your situation, I would try to negociate with the manager, claim that you got extensions 4 times...

Tell him that you don't have the funds now and that you could show to them next year, I don't know.

Wish you good luck !

Edited September 20, 2007 by cosmont

[a99az]

we all need to get together with the media and share all of these rude and anti-human rule changes. they are killing the core people who really love living here and putting money flow into the economy. trust me...MONEY TALKS.

i begged readers to join me with the retirement visa changes on dependents...NOBODY OFFERED.

i ask again...LETS SPEAK UP TO CNN..BBC...anyone...THE NATION.

is this just a sounding board...or a group of strong farang who are REAL winners ...not REAL whiners?

JOIN ME...lets make some noise. IT WILL WORK.

i will meet anyone...anyplace to form a group to go to the media about all of these racist laws popping up.

if you dont act now...YOUR VISA WILL BE NEXT.they will find a loophole in every case.

any takers?

A grand idea if every expat would all stand and be counted it could work. Sadly I think that many would hide and wait for positive results before committing themselves. In the mean time the ring leaders of such a move would get a healthy dose of problems when it came to doing anything like renewing a visa, at best they might get to leave Thailand without the cash and homes they have here.

I would be good why not put this to a vote and see what sort of interest there is.

[teacher]

Today, I was not expecting any trouble, but I was refused an extension. I was told that the law has changed and that they no longer consider the price you paid for the condo, but instead look at a price which is assessed by the government. On my receipt from the Land Registry these figures are given as ราคาทุนทรัพย์ 3,500,000 and ราคาประเมิน 2,270,000. Effectively, they now consider that my investment is 730,000 baht too low.

The differance has come about because you agreed a price of 3.5 mill with the possiablity the seller paying for the condo transfer, (or maybe 50% each) When they did the transfer and to keep the price down they do a deal and say the selling price is 2.27mil thus keeping the transfer cost/tax down. So the sale agreement that comes with the chanort (title deeds) will have a sale price of 2.270 mil and NOT 3.5 MIL just another Thai to Thai con where the Farang will have to cough up at some stage.

[cosmont]

Just wish to add that they always requested that tax payment doc from land office from me when applying for extension. Mine is above 3M Baht. Cheers!

My Tax Payment doc show 2 values (head of document)

1. Transaction value (market value)

2. Estimated land Dpt value

This value is estimated by Land Dpt per sqm, depending only of the location (district) and never changed since 4 years.

[Dakhar]

What if you invested in other things besides a condo, and the value of those investments took a slide.... Which is very believable in Thailand. Does the falange get the boot for that too?

Probably... what a place. what a sham.

[ovenman]

I was told that the law has changed and that they no longer consider the price you paid for the condo, but instead look at a price which is assessed by the government.

And again I ask the question, does this system work the other way around (i.e. bought a condo years ago for 2 million and it's now assessed at a value of 4 million)? I'm just guessing this operates at any given moment in whatever manner allows immigrations to deny an extension and weed out yet another farang.

[teacher]

And again I ask the question, does this system work the other way around (i.e. bought a condo years ago for 2 million and it's now assessed at a value of 4 million)?

I would strongly advise against this as there is asuch a ting as capital gains tax you know. Also when you come to sell the house you will be paying at a rate of 4.0 million for the transfer. Now this is when you yourself will say lower the price to get the tax payment down hahahaha

catch 22 my friend.

[howerski]

If I was pushed for the 750k bht I'd (re)mortgage and then find a way to supplement my income to pay the payments. Pay off the mortgage in a couple of years when the house prices has risen sufficiently

[thaibear1]

I have just returned from attempting to extend my permission to stay for another year, based on owning a condo worth more than 3M baht. As everyone probably knows, this was abolished for new applicants last year and intially it was stated that existing aliens in this category would also not be given any further extensions. However, after a lot of panic, this was changed and existing users were "grandfathered" in. Subsequently, I extended my permission to stay by one year.

Today, I was not expecting any trouble, but I was refused an extension. I was told that the law has changed and that they no longer consider the price you paid for the condo, but instead look at a price which is assessed by the government. On my receipt from the Land Registry these figures are given as ราคาทุนทรัพย์ 3,500,000 and ราคาประเมิน 2,270,000. Effectively, they now consider that my investment is 730,000 baht too low. If I put this amount in a bank account, they would give me permission to stay (initially they said I would have to put 3M baht in a bank account, but then one of them produced a procedural manual and decided that the investment does not have to be in one unit). They emphasised that this amount would have to stay permanently in the bank, and produced a letter in English to this effect.

I pointed out, and they agreed, that I have had four previous extensions granted on this basis but they stated again that "Immigration has changed the law" (this was said in English, twice).

Needless to say, I do not have a spare 730,000 baht which I can put in a bank and not touch for ever, so I now have 26 days left in Thailand to sort this out.

Has anyone encountered this problem or does anyone have any ideas?

------------

I don't know where we are going with this. The foreign investments already started to withdraw . I believe it should even go further until they will understand they are playing a game against themselves. Each week they find a new ragulation to bore the farangs in Thailand, the speach of Thanksin on 18.09.06 "Farang go home" effect more and more

[brahmburgers]

First of all, I'd pay the 1900 baht for a 30 day extension. That gives you breathing room and the officials don't see your case as an impossible timeframe.

I'd hit them, softly, from every angle... with a smile. I'd avoid contact myself, getting Thais to ask them for ways around, and/or better interpretations to the word of the law. Maybe a Thai law office, spouse, or Thai business owner friends.

On the second front, I'd try to get your team to re-evaluate the property. Then getting the Representative themselves to walk the papers in. Thais have a way of respecting documents handed to them by office workers.

Can you apply for an extension at a different office/province?

And, lastly... once it's extended... Applying for permanent residency may be an idea.

just my 2 cents. (keep in mind, I don't have the experience in the visa extension process)

I agree with Misterme. diplomatically rpobe around the edges - and check one or two other offices to see if you get a more humane response. Also, check out other ways to qualify for a long-term visa. After reading this, my report card grading on Imm dept policy went from D to E.

[xxxarte]

I renewed my investor visa this year in april for the 4 or 5 consecutive year without problems and in 2 hours in BKK.

But... I go a stamp on my dossier writing "NON R-E" what does it mean?

[jackr]

I renewed my investor visa this year in april for the 4 or 5 consecutive year without problems and in 2 hours in BKK.

But... I go a stamp on my dossier writing "NON R-E" what does it mean?

NON RE ENTRY?

[AmericanGuy1066]

If I was pushed for the 750k bht I'd (re)mortgage and then find a way to supplement my income to pay the payments. Pay off the mortgage in a couple of years when the house prices has risen sufficiently

Nice idea in a sane country. Don't forget that the Thai banks won't give him a mortgage as a foreigner, especially without a WP/visa. Bangkok Bank / UOB in Singapore may help with a remortgage but there are some hefty fees. USD 2k up if I recall, then interest rates of 7%.

Not personally a fan of the approach but if desperate you might suggest you make a contribution to the immigration departments happiness in return for doing the same as last year. If you can't beat them join them. That said I wouldn't want to join them, but it's perhaps an option Thai style..

[eagleflyinghigh]

Just my two cents: Always take legal advice from a reputable local law firm and avoid dealing with immigration directly. If you can not afford this, then better go home.

Of course Thailand is a real third world country (with some make up) including all the positive and negatve aspects about it:

Generally speaking everything can be arranged. Of course there is the aggresive and racist attitude from the "elite" towards us. This is understandable if we consider that our life partners are often from a low social background. Their sudden status gain is then perceived badly by the "elite" who systematically is discriminating the people of its own country (Isaan look down syndrom).

Of course many Thais are bad towards us, but they behave even worse among them. There is simply no more materialistic, short term money focused country than Thailand . But this can also be amusing (kind of going to a zoo) if you know how to deal with them - they are so transparent and predictable.

So let's relax and dont forget the hassle Thai people have when they after a long wait, are badly treated at our Consulates applying for a tourist visa.

[thaigene2]

Let's just stop pretending. At some point we have to do that and face reality. The point is - now what? Action? Media campaign? Others have suggested that. But would it help or make things worse? Decisions need to be made...(I edited to add this: "Collective" decisions need to be made...United we stand- divided we fall..

Edited September 20, 2007 by thaigene2

[thaigene2]

A cross-cultural cross-lingual forum is needed too. Are japanese and koreans and tawainese facing this too? Is it just farangs? Can someone check other language forums and report back?

[flyer]

Hi Log,

Well govments DO change laws, in Thailand and everywhere in the world. Investors (i mean real investors) do know that and take that into account as one of the numerous risks when they invest abroad. The more risks, the lower the prices and the higher required the return on investment. This is what makes economies like in Thailand a weak one and economies like in Singapore strong one. The bad thing is when people who are not investors do invest as a loophole, for example to meet visa requirements. In most cases they have not factored in the risks and mostly don't have the back-up reserves to cope with those risks. I was reading in this lead about some thinking it could be better to move from Thailand to Indonesia or to Malaysia.... well regardless of the fact that it is true that those are very (farang)-friendly (for the moment) , think of it before you invest. They are Moslim countries, and while for the moment you are welcome, you might be stuck with a real nightmare should a fundamentalist governement emerge at the next elections. That is all the ballgame about investments abroad, not only in Asia but anywhere.

This being said, hoping you will be more careful next time, i would suggest two things you can do that might help.

1. Take a good THAI lawyer and pay whatever it costs to try to settle the problem. This will always be cheaper then loosing feathers in selling your condo. The market for those is very low now and don't expect much if you sell it. Sunbelt does have Thai lawyers who probably can help you. Another you could look at is sukhothaiinterlaw.com

2. I would suggest that you take steps right away (don't wait for the outcome of the lawyer stuff!) to take a mortgage on your condo for the amount of money you miss in the bank to reach the total of 3 mio THB. Maybe 500,000 could do if you live one year enjoying the real thai way of living...as average thai do live . Thai banks will probably not want to help you, although it is worth trying... ask Sunbelt if they have any idea ... Andy is very creative I don't know your home country, but you should be able to find a foreign bank in your home country or off shore to borrow you 500,000 THB on mortgage. I know banks in europe who will do it. Search first in your home country, if not successful then look at the big guys in Asia, like HSBC etc... if necessary take a flight to SIN or HKG to visit them and discuss the matter after you have made contact.

Good luck anyway.

[flyer]

==> THAIGENE2

The rules are different for members of the ASEAN countries about visa, rules for stay etc... plus some bilateral agreements with INdonesia and Malaysia.

We should all understand that our western countries treat Asians in general even much worse then a thai treats his buffalo.... Go stay for a day in your embassy in BKK and see and listen to all what happens there and interview Thai people that come out with all their frustration. Much of the visa/stay 'ruling' set by developing countries is only in retaliation to the way they are treated by our western countries. This is extremely stupid of course, but it needs a very strong govment and economy to resist the temptation and understand what are or should be the differences. I am not sure there is that much xenophoby although there is some. I think it is more at the level of 'tooth for tooht and eye for eye'. Lately , western countries have tightened their access for foreigners in a totally unrealistic and even sometimes scandalous way. Then don't ask yourself why rules get suddenly tightened in, for example, Thailand and farang heads get rolling. Ask your embassy why ?

Ha, this is the kind of thing that could be brought to the press also. Not only the wrong doing in Thailand or elsewhere.

[leoalex]

Just my two cents: Always take legal advice from a reputable local law firm and avoid dealing with immigration directly. If you can not afford this, then better go home.

Of course Thailand is a real third world country (with some make up) including all the positive and negatve aspects about it:

Generally speaking everything can be arranged. Of course there is the aggresive and racist attitude from the "elite" towards us. This is understandable if we consider that our life partners are often from a low social background. Their sudden status gain is then perceived badly by the "elite" who systematically is discriminating the people of its own country (Isaan look down syndrom).

Of course many Thais are bad towards us, but they behave even worse among them. There is simply no more materialistic, short term money focused country than Thailand . But this can also be amusing (kind of going to a zoo) if you know how to deal with them - they are so transparent and predictable.

So let's relax and dont forget the hassle Thai people have when they after a long wait, are badly treated at our Consulates applying for a tourist visa.

Very funny post.

1. Third world countries exists only in your mind. Some kind of "democratic propaganda" - see we the best blablabla.

Or you think money rules everything? Not true at MOST cases! And current "1d world countries" have money only because was first in some subjects like licensing rules, selling poison (alcohol/tobacco) to everybody, etc.

Also this is not your personal achievements to be from '1world country' and be able to travel without visas everywhere where another peoples need visas, etc. When "3d world country" goverment (by your jargon) start see that more clearly and understand what here is not big difference between selfmade thai and farang, but second is same about cheat (overstay, illegally work, more troublemaking) and have 'born-rules' to travel everywhere where for thai it is hard - it start closing (still open for tourists, but more hard for peoples who want stay here without workjob/money).

Also why you choose to stay at "3 world country" where most peoples easy to going, more open, smiling and have MUCH better moods than any european?

2. QUOTE : "Of course there is the aggresive and racist attitude from the "elite" towards us."

European peoples also have racist attitudes to most of immigrants. common blablabla - "we the best, him go here to eat our bread".

Media support this confusing, posting lot of one-view news, articles/etc.

Also - how you think where source of racists from???

QUOTE "So let's relax and dont forget the hassle Thai people have when they after a long wait, are badly treated at our Consulates applying for a tourist visa."

So, don't be surprised if one day you find what country you liked was closed for you and you find what visa rules tighten every one day.

And one more time - "this is NOT YOUR personal achievements to be from '1world country')

PS : Is "aggresive and racist attitude" at quoted post"?

Edited September 20, 2007 by leoalex

[MaiChai]

Trouble with new property in Thailand is that it depreciates, bit like a car. Maybe when its 10 years old and in reasonable condition will it start appreciating; a Thai friend has a condo in a good part of central Bangkok and after 10 years he is only starting to see some appreciation in value.

What I think will happen long term is that the Thais will only want rich farangs to stay. I mean there will be too many farangs wanting to stay and they will just raise the financial thresholds to keep the numbers manageable. I dont believe treating us fairly will come into it. Thus in my opinion difficult to make big investment here. Best to rent and keep your money in the bank. Its worth buying a car/motorbike and furnishings for a house, but thats it. If you cant own and enjoy it then dont buy it! Not to mention urban planning!