How Rich Thais View Poor

[meemiathai]

Calm down; Kitty, just had a wee rant about (claiming to have seen) a foreigner making a spectacle of himself (in her eyes) with a (girl who she assumed to be) a prostitute in the shopping centre, as a result of her and many other Thais prejudiced assumptions that Thai girls with foreigners are prositutes. It was the kind of prejudice scene we are all exposed to on a daily basis and presented from the point of view of an outspoken Thai, who feels her priveleged position in society is under threat because the lower classes are finding a way to raise themselves from positions of being treated like toilets, by people like her, which is the norm in her circles. They are usually too polite to say much about it to your face, but will sometimes do if they think you can't understand Thai

I've taken the liberty of amending it a litte. Looks more accurate now

Nice amendment.

[WaiWai]

Let's hang people with different skin colour! Am I being outspoken?

Outspoken means voicing your opinions freely, something Thais aren't renowned for.

Whether others agree with those opinions or not is a different issue.

[WaiWai]

QUOTE(fletchthai68 @ 2007-09-22 19:21:22)

QUOTE(WaiWai @ 2007-09-22 17:07:58)

Calm down; Kitty, just had a wee rant about (claiming to have seen) a foreigner making a spectacle of himself (in her eyes) with a (girl who she assumed to be) a prostitute in the shopping centre, as a result of her and many other Thais prejudiced assumptions that Thai girls with foreigners are prositutes. It was the kind of prejudice scene we are all exposed to on a daily basis and presented from the point of view of an outspoken Thai, who feels her priveleged position in society is under threat because the lower classes are finding a way to raise themselves from positions of being treated like toilets, by people like her, which is the norm in her circles. They are usually too polite to say much about it to your face, but will sometimes do if they think you can't understand Thai

I've taken the liberty of amending it a litte. Looks more accurate now

Nice amendment.

I object to this false extrapolation, as noted above.

If you have a decent argument to make, there is no need to "amend" others' quotes in this fallacious way.

[meemiathai]

Let's hang people with different skin colour! Am I being outspoken?

Outspoken means voicing your opinions freely, something Thais aren't renowned for.

Whether others agree with those opinions or not is a different issue.

My point was when you are at a better position than the ones you critize and you know very well that they are vulnerable to your attacks and cannot fight back, do you still call that outspoken? I suppose you think the kkk are outspoken people too?

[fletchsmile]

Fletchthai, I dislike the snobbery and elitism as much as you do. I am an Aussie and it goes very much against the grain.

However, I think the story is mainly about the old foreign fool's antics in the shop, and Kitty's amazement that he was treating the relationship with a prostitute in this way by (a) bringing it into the public eye and ( treating a business relationship as a "girlfriend" one. I didn't like the use of the word "toilet" but I see the analogy she's trying to make.

I have seen similar scenes countless times and Thais dislike them on many levels and for many reasons. The snobbery is only one. I share their "cringe" in many ways.

For me it should be a case of live and let live. I'm not perfect, tho, and the exception I can't help making sometimes is for those who don't let others live.

As far as I could see from reading the blog twice, the only thing the guy did was talk loudly - hardly the antics she imposed on him. The rest is just some sad bigot trying to look down on other people, and keep them "in their place", and out of her places. People supporting her on Thai Visa seem quite happy with judging other people on their appearance, stereotypes and hearsay, and without knowing anything of the facts or circumstances in this case. They then extend this to society at large, again with little understanding of facts, circumstances or society, and how such situations arise in the first place.

I guess Kitty's also too stupid too realise that if she doesn't like the stereotypes Thai women have, she should stop so cowardly perpetuating them. Either that or she's scared of Thai women dating foreigners as it will affect the wealth distribution in the country, and stop her and her friend being able to sh*t on others, and use them like toilets.

Many Thai women are scared of what Thai society will think of them if they are alone in the company of a foreigner. What a sad set of assumptions much of Thai society makes in such cases. Apart from the cowardly "hi-so", no-one benefits from these sort of prejudices. So they deserve stamping on. The only way they are realistically going to lose the Thai hooker stereotype, is being less prejudiced about inter racial relationships, so it becomes the norm. At the moment, a girl often has to be either very courageous or desperate to date a foreign guy - often both. Until people start being more tolerant, and open-minded those stereotypes are going to linger.

Edited September 22, 2007 by fletchthai68

[WaiWai]

Let's hang people with different skin colour! Am I being outspoken?

Outspoken means voicing your opinions freely, something Thais aren't renowned for.

Whether others agree with those opinions or not is a different issue.

My point was when you are at a better position than the ones you critize and you know very well that they are vulnerable to your attacks and cannot fight back, do you still call that outspoken? I suppose you think the kkk are outspoken people too?

Vulnerable and unable to fight back ? The girl in question can start her own blog is she wishes.

Good grief, now we have the kkk involved .

[meemiathai]

QUOTE(fletchthai68 @ 2007-09-22 19:21:22)

QUOTE(WaiWai @ 2007-09-22 17:07:58)

Calm down; Kitty, just had a wee rant about (claiming to have seen) a foreigner making a spectacle of himself (in her eyes) with a (girl who she assumed to be) a prostitute in the shopping centre, as a result of her and many other Thais prejudiced assumptions that Thai girls with foreigners are prositutes. It was the kind of prejudice scene we are all exposed to on a daily basis and presented from the point of view of an outspoken Thai, who feels her priveleged position in society is under threat because the lower classes are finding a way to raise themselves from positions of being treated like toilets, by people like her, which is the norm in her circles. They are usually too polite to say much about it to your face, but will sometimes do if they think you can't understand Thai

I've taken the liberty of amending it a litte. Looks more accurate now

Nice amendment.

I object to this false extrapolation, as noted above.

If you have a decent argument to make, there is no need to "amend" others' quotes in this fallacious way.

He was just trying an effective way to make a point. Nothing personal I think.

[mrtoad]

Calm down; Kitty just had a wee rant about a foreigner making a spectacle of himself with a prostitute in the shopping centre. It was the kind of scene we are all exposed to on a daily basis and presented from the point of view of an outspoken Thai. They are usually too polite to say much about it.

Outspoken?

Let's hang people with different skin colour! Am I being outspoken?

Good point, because a lot of opinions are formed by the colour of a persons skin. Not just in Thailand as you know. But, what is particualrly annoying is the disdainful look that some of these "snobs" give to people who they feel are not worthy of being in their presece, purely based on an assumption. I have encountered it on a several occasions when I have been out with mrstoad, who has darker skin- although it is significantly less when we are out with our daughter, who gets all the attention from pretty much everybody.

[meemiathai]

Let's hang people with different skin colour! Am I being outspoken?

Outspoken means voicing your opinions freely, something Thais aren't renowned for.

Whether others agree with those opinions or not is a different issue.

My point was when you are at a better position than the ones you critize and you know very well that they are vulnerable to your attacks and cannot fight back, do you still call that outspoken? I suppose you think the kkk are outspoken people too?

Vulnerable and unable to fight back ? The girl in question can start her own blog is she wishes.

Good grief, now we have the kkk involved .

So you think it is always a fair game between rich people vs poor people?

So if you can't see the bullying mentality in these so-called hi-so people, then I really have run out of words.

[fletchsmile]

QUOTE(fletchthai68 @ 2007-09-22 19:21:22)

QUOTE(WaiWai @ 2007-09-22 17:07:58)

Calm down; Kitty, just had a wee rant about (claiming to have seen) a foreigner making a spectacle of himself (in her eyes) with a (girl who she assumed to be) a prostitute in the shopping centre, as a result of her and many other Thais prejudiced assumptions that Thai girls with foreigners are prositutes. It was the kind of prejudice scene we are all exposed to on a daily basis and presented from the point of view of an outspoken Thai, who feels her priveleged position in society is under threat because the lower classes are finding a way to raise themselves from positions of being treated like toilets, by people like her, which is the norm in her circles. They are usually too polite to say much about it to your face, but will sometimes do if they think you can't understand Thai

I've taken the liberty of amending it a litte. Looks more accurate now

Nice amendment.

I object to this false extrapolation, as noted above.

If you have a decent argument to make, there is no need to "amend" others' quotes in this fallacious way.

He was just trying an effective way to make a point. Nothing personal I think.

confirmed - nothing personal.

[WaiWai]

Good point, because a lot of opinions are formed by the colour of a persons skin. Not just in Thailand as you know. But, what is particualrly annoying is the disdainful look that some of these "snobs" give to people who they feel are not worthy of being in their presece, purely based on an assumption. I have encountered it on a several occasions when I have been out with mrstoad, who has darker skin- although it is significantly less when we are out with our daughter, who gets all the attention from pretty much everybody.

Would you rather your daughter grew up to have richer old blokes she cannot communicate with buying her piles of clothing, or be a salesperson in that store ?

Kitty's opinion on that question ended her story.

[WaiWai]

confirmed - nothing personal.

I didn't say there was anything "personal" about it .

It's just not a very effective way of presenting your case, in this instance, as your extrapolation of the values informing my comments is incorrect.

Also, you leave the quote open to re-quotation as mine.

[meemiathai]

Fletchthai, I dislike the snobbery and elitism as much as you do. I am an Aussie and it goes very much against the grain.

However, I think the story is mainly about the old foreign fool's antics in the shop, and Kitty's amazement that he was treating the relationship with a prostitute in this way by (a) bringing it into the public eye and ( treating a business relationship as a "girlfriend" one. I didn't like the use of the word "toilet" but I see the analogy she's trying to make.

I have seen similar scenes countless times and Thais dislike them on many levels and for many reasons. The snobbery is only one. I share their "cringe" in many ways.

For me it should be a case of live and let live. I'm not perfect, tho, and the exception I can't help making sometimes is for those who don't let others live.

As far as I could see from reading the blog twice, the only thing the guy did was talk loudly - hardly the antics she imposed on him. The rest is just some sad bigot trying to look down on other people, and keep them "in their place", and out of her places. People supporting her on Thai Visa seem quite happy with judging other people on their appearance, stereotypes and hearsay, and without knowing anything of the facts or circumstances in this case. They then extend this to society at large, again with little understanding of facts, circumstances or society, and how such situations arise in the first place.

I guess Kitty's also too stupid too realise that if she doesn't like the stereotypes Thai women have, she should stop so cowardly perpetuating them. Either that or she's scared of Thai women dating foreigners as it will affect the wealth distribution in the country, and stop her and her friend being able to sh*t on others, and use them like toilets.

Many Thai women are scared of what Thai society will think of them if they are alone in the company of a foreigner. What a sad set of assumptions much of Thai society makes in such cases. Apart from the cowardly "hi-so", no-one benefits from these sort of prejudices. So they deserve stamping on. The only way they are realistically going to lose the Thai hooker stereotype, is being less prejudiced about inter racial relationships, so it becomes the norm. At the moment, a girl often has to be either very courageous or desperate to date a foreign guy - often both. Until people start being more tolerant, and open-minded those stereotypes are going to linger.

Thanks for the many good posts you have contributed to this thread, Sir. Hopefully some if not many people can benefit from reading them.

And guess how this kitty is going to choose her partner. Is he driving a Lamboghini? Can he get every person to bow to me?

And when they get married, the man is going to get as many mia nois as possible. How interesting it must be to associate with these people!

[WaiWai]

So if you can't see the bullying mentality in these so-called hi-so people, then I really have run out of words.

! A first time for everything !

Edited September 22, 2007 by WaiWai

[mrtoad]

Good point, because a lot of opinions are formed by the colour of a persons skin. Not just in Thailand as you know. But, what is particualrly annoying is the disdainful look that some of these "snobs" give to people who they feel are not worthy of being in their presece, purely based on an assumption. I have encountered it on a several occasions when I have been out with mrstoad, who has darker skin- although it is significantly less when we are out with our daughter, who gets all the attention from pretty much everybody.

Would you rather your daughter grew up to have richer old blokes she cannot communicate with buying her piles of clothing, or be a salesperson in that store ?

Kitty's opinion on that question ended her story.

That has absolutely no relevance to the point about class discrimantion based on skin colour, which from my understanding is where this thread has been heading.

As to your pointed question, I don't need to answear that.

Edited September 22, 2007 by mrtoad

[meemiathai]

Good point, because a lot of opinions are formed by the colour of a persons skin. Not just in Thailand as you know. But, what is particualrly annoying is the disdainful look that some of these "snobs" give to people who they feel are not worthy of being in their presece, purely based on an assumption. I have encountered it on a several occasions when I have been out with mrstoad, who has darker skin- although it is significantly less when we are out with our daughter, who gets all the attention from pretty much everybody.

Would you rather your daughter grew up to have richer old blokes she cannot communicate with buying her piles of clothing, or be a salesperson in that store ?

Kitty's opinion on that question ended her story.

If that was my daughter. She can do anything she chooses to. But that is just me.

[meemiathai]

confirmed - nothing personal.

I didn't say there was anything "personal" about it .

It's just not a very effective way of presenting your case, in this instance, as your extrapolation of the values informing my comments is incorrect.

Also, you leave the quote open to re-quotation as mine.

Just take it as another new post.

[WaiWai]

The only way they are realistically going to lose the Thai hooker stereotype, is being less prejudiced about inter racial relationships, so it becomes the norm.

Interesting notion.

Or perhaps some discouragement of sexpats & sextourists, and more importantly, genuine efforts to educate & employ young Thais in meaningful and non-demeaning, non- self-destructive work and lifestyles is the way to go ?

[Prakanong]

Good point, because a lot of opinions are formed by the colour of a persons skin. Not just in Thailand as you know. But, what is particualrly annoying is the disdainful look that some of these "snobs" give to people who they feel are not worthy of being in their presece, purely based on an assumption. I have encountered it on a several occasions when I have been out with mrstoad, who has darker skin- although it is significantly less when we are out with our daughter, who gets all the attention from pretty much everybody.

Would you rather your daughter grew up to have richer old blokes she cannot communicate with buying her piles of clothing, or be a salesperson in that store ?

Kitty's opinion on that question ended her story.

But she also had something about people from the girls neighbourhood could not get a job in the store - implying poor people or those from Isaan or wherever could not even make it to a shop assistants job and should be in their place.

If this was Tara Palmer-Tompkonson in the UK saying this or Paris Hilton in the USA would all the idiots on here say they were the "Voice of their generation and country" - they need to listen to themselves nad get their heads out of their <deleted> and into the real worl - a fe drinks and a party might do some of them good as they love to wallow in misery.

And to be honest Zara is not exactly high fashion but stupid Thai's like Kitty and her mother seem to think so. An excellent business model and very good company though.

[WaiWai]

If that was my daughter. She can do anything she chooses to. But that is just me.

I am sure your daughter would have many more, and more desirable & rewarding, options available.

[fletchsmile]

Calm down; Kitty just had a wee rant about a foreigner making a spectacle of himself with a prostitute in the shopping centre. It was the kind of scene we are all exposed to on a daily basis and presented from the point of view of an outspoken Thai. They are usually too polite to say much about it.

Outspoken?

Let's hang people with different skin colour! Am I being outspoken?

Good point, because a lot of opinions are formed by the colour of a persons skin. Not just in Thailand as you know. But, what is particualrly annoying is the disdainful look that some of these "snobs" give to people who they feel are not worthy of being in their presece, purely based on an assumption. I have encountered it on a several occasions when I have been out with mrstoad, who has darker skin- although it is significantly less when we are out with our daughter, who gets all the attention from pretty much everybody.

Can totally relate to that and have shared similar experiences. Although my wife's skin is not dark - she's not Thai Chinese either. More a lovely light brown! We've come across these prejudiced assumptions on several occasions too. Like you, since we have had a daughter I've also noticed we're looked at differently. You can see it in some peoples faces - the assumptions they make, and sometimes you hear it in Thai. Then when they see us as a family or see our cute little daughter the looks change. In addition to Thais you sometimes get it from female farangs. Very rarely is it farang males that show us prejudice.

As mentioned earlier in the post, I expect a few occasions in the future, when I'll be out around the city with just my daughter, and there'll be these same people looking disdainfully and saying "tsk tsk she's young enough to be his daughter...". Sadly that's a refelction of the society we're in. Tho' it has it's positives too of course, and there's no harm in trying to change the influence of such prejudices.

[WaiWai]

But she also had something about people from the girls neighbourhood could not get a job in the store - implying poor people or those from Isaan or wherever could not even make it to a shop assistants job and should be in their place.

I think the "should be in their place" is entirely your own interpretation.

[WaiWai]

That has absolutely no relevance to the point about class discrimantion based on skin colour, which from my understanding is where this thread has been heading.

As to your pointed question, I don't need to answear that.

The girl's skin colour was never mentioned, and Kitty stated that the girl was not ugly, and could have found employment in other areas.

Not sure why you have been assuming that's the critical factor here.

The point about the "choice" between being a prostitute and working as a sales clerk was one Kitty made, and one many seem to have missed.

Edited September 22, 2007 by WaiWai

[Prakanong]

But she also had something about people from the girls neighbourhood could not get a job in the store - implying poor people or those from Isaan or wherever could not even make it to a shop assistants job and should be in their place.

I think the "should be in their place" is entirely your own interpretation.

Just as your's is the girl was a hooker. I will not use Kitty's fake "nigga speak ho"

There is more logic in mine in assuming that is what she was inferring - people in this girls neighbourhood could not get a job there - the use of the word "Cell".

I thought you "Colonial types" were against effete snobbery?

[Prakanong]

That has absolutely no relevance to the point about class discrimantion based on skin colour, which from my understanding is where this thread has been heading.

As to your pointed question, I don't need to answear that.

The girl's skin colour was never mentioned, and Kitty stated that the girl was not ugly, and could have found employment in other areas.

Not sure why you have been assuming that's the critical factor here.

The point about the "choice" between being a prostitute and working as a sales clerk was one Kitty made, and one many seem to have missed.

Wait a minute - she said the girl could have got a job as say a air hostess as she was pretty.

Well seems Kitty know's jack shit about the qwualifications needed in Thailand then does she not - one minute the girl can not speak English and then kitty assuming she has the degre to be a hostie.

The story is full of holes - brought up in a corrupt murdering family with no regard for the truth has rubbed off on her!

[mrtoad]

That has absolutely no relevance to the point about class discrimantion based on skin colour, which from my understanding is where this thread has been heading.

As to your pointed question, I don't need to answear that.

The girl's skin colour was never mentioned, and Kitty stated that the girl was not ugly, and could have found employment in other areas.

Not sure why you have been assuming that's the critical factor here.

The point about the "choice" between being a prostitute and working as a sales clerk was one Kitty made, and one many seem to have missed.

Note the use of the words, thread and heading.

I was not just commenting on Kitty, but where a lot of people assumptions originate from.

Edited September 22, 2007 by mrtoad

[Prakanong]

Well gentlemen it has been charming discussing this with you all. I am heading to the airport in about 10 minutes when the car gets here. All being well I hope not to log on to the board for 8 days or so - hope this thread has run its course by then.

Chin chin

[WaiWai]

That has absolutely no relevance to the point about class discrimantion based on skin colour, which from my understanding is where this thread has been heading.

As to your pointed question, I don't need to answear that.

The girl's skin colour was never mentioned, and Kitty stated that the girl was not ugly, and could have found employment in other areas.

Not sure why you have been assuming that's the critical factor here.

The point about the "choice" between being a prostitute and working as a sales clerk was one Kitty made, and one many seem to have missed.

Note the use of the words, thread and heading.

I was not just commenting on Kitty, but where a lot of people assumptions originate from.

Oh ... maybe that's one factor, but there are surely many more.

[jumnien]

I implore my fellow TV posters to all absorb the masterpiece "Borat", especially the hi-so dining scene visited by the street hooker. Many of you are letting the humour go unappreciated and getting far too serious with the skin colour/kkk delusions. I do apologize deeply for leaving the thread for 3 hours and letting it drift into such a "politically correct" depression. Do any of you people ever laugh?

[mrtoad]

That has absolutely no relevance to the point about class discrimantion based on skin colour, which from my understanding is where this thread has been heading.

As to your pointed question, I don't need to answear that.

The girl's skin colour was never mentioned, and Kitty stated that the girl was not ugly, and could have found employment in other areas.

Not sure why you have been assuming that's the critical factor here.

The point about the "choice" between being a prostitute and working as a sales clerk was one Kitty made, and one many seem to have missed.

Note the use of the words, thread and heading.

I was not just commenting on Kitty, but where a lot of people assumptions originate from.

Oh ... maybe that's one factor, but there are surely many more.

Oh, there's plenty, but I neither have the time or the inclination to list them, as I need a beer.