Thailand Scores 14th In 2007 International Math Olympiad

[canadiangirl]

Thailand scored 14th on the latest International Math Olympiad, held this July in Vietnam. This was well ahead of almost EVERY Western country (except for the US, which scored 5th)

The IMO is a very prestigious math competition for high school students. Each country sends a team, and the team all compete against each other. At least in Canada, it's very, very tough to get selected to be on these teams -- the kids who get picked are really, really smart.

It's not a contest like "who can multiply big numbers in their head faster" -- the students have to solve tough problems that require a lot of creative problem-solving and mathematical understanding.

I thought this was interesting, given what people usually think about education in Thailand. As well, Thailand is a 3rd world country competing against much richer countries.

Of course, it's not a complete picture of education: some of the countries groom top students in elite schools, while mostly ignoring everyone else. But still, interesting. There are good students and schools out there somewhere in Thailand.

I found the listings here:

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~jsm28/imo-scores...ores-order.html

[geriatrickid]

The results indicate nothing and certainly are not reflective of either the quality of education or the intellectual capital of the participating nations. The individual results show a wide national demonstration of individual excellence.

Look closely at the results and you see Chile at the bottom. You'd think Chile would be a basket case and yet it has one of the most robust economies and is a vibrant growing democracy. Then there's Israel. Long known as an incubator of mathematical innovation (think software, cell phones, medical research and electronic spy technology) Based upon the poor results, you'd expect Israel to be a land of dummies. Rude and pushy maybe, but certainly not dummies.

If Thais were as good in math as the results suggest then it would show up in scientific innovation. Feel free to post some examples.

[canadiangirl]

The results indicate nothing and certainly are not reflective of either the quality of education or the intellectual capital of the participating nations. The individual results show a wide national demonstration of individual excellence.

Look closely at the results and you see Chile at the bottom. You'd think Chile would be a basket case and yet it has one of the most robust economies and is a vibrant growing democracy. Then there's Israel. Long known as an incubator of mathematical innovation (think software, cell phones, medical research and electronic spy technology) Based upon the poor results, you'd expect Israel to be a land of dummies. Rude and pushy maybe, but certainly not dummies.

If Thais were as good in math as the results suggest then it would show up in scientific innovation. Feel free to post some examples.

I think you're trying to twist a simple bravo! about the accomplishment of a few Thai math students into some kind of argument. I'm not sure why. Is it so hard to believe that Thailand would do something good?

If you notice, I mentioned that it's not to be taken as a sign of the quality of mathematical education in the general population, as some countries hand-pick prodigies for very elite institutes (almost like China does for young gymnasts, etc), without caring too much about the education of the average student. No one would describe North Korea as doing well, yet it scored very highly too.

What is demonstrated by these results is that someone, somewhere in Thailand is getting a VERY good mathematical education, or at least, very good training in writing math competitions (they overlap, but aren't exactly the same). I wouldn't have expected that, with all that people say about education in Thailand. I did not, however, extrapolate that it meant anything else about Thailand.

Your argument is hard to follow. One comment I would make is that math competitions aren't the same as mathematical research. As well, technological and scientific innovation are only loosely related to mathematical innovation. The forefront of mathematical research happening now will take decades, if not a centuries, to be applied to anything in the real world. For example, the mathematical theory that underlies computer science and all computers we use today (with a possible exception of quantum computers) predates the first physical computers by many decades.

I really don't where you get this idea that "if Thais were so good at mathematics, it would show up in scientific innovation?"

[chownah]

The results indicate nothing and certainly are not reflective of either the quality of education or the intellectual capital of the participating nations. The individual results show a wide national demonstration of individual excellence.

Look closely at the results and you see Chile at the bottom. You'd think Chile would be a basket case and yet it has one of the most robust economies and is a vibrant growing democracy. Then there's Israel. Long known as an incubator of mathematical innovation (think software, cell phones, medical research and electronic spy technology) Based upon the poor results, you'd expect Israel to be a land of dummies. Rude and pushy maybe, but certainly not dummies.

If Thais were as good in math as the results suggest then it would show up in scientific innovation. Feel free to post some examples.

I think you're trying to twist a simple bravo! about the accomplishment of a few Thai math students into some kind of argument. I'm not sure why. Is it so hard to believe that Thailand would do something good?

If you notice, I mentioned that it's not to be taken as a sign of the quality of mathematical education in the general population, as some countries hand-pick prodigies for very elite institutes (almost like China does for young gymnasts, etc), without caring too much about the education of the average student. No one would describe North Korea as doing well, yet it scored very highly too.

Canadiangirl,

If you go back and carefully read your original post I think you will see that it was not a "simple bravo" at all. You turned it into a debate about relative performance of nations by saying "ahead of almost EVERY Western country" and you have further reinforced this view of nations competeing right here in your latest post when you talk about a belief that "Thailand would do something good"......in reality it was the kids that did it...not Thailand at all.

You say here that "If you notice, I mentioned that it's not to be taken as a sign of the quality of mathematical education in the general population," but in your original post you said, "I thought this was interesting, given what people usually think about education in Thailand."...which clearly is a statement making a connection between the kids' performance and the Thai educational system.

Seems like you are putting out bait and then pouncing on whoever rises to the bait....but I could be mistaken.

Chownah

[mrtoad]

Its the weekend, and she likes to go fishing.

[Plus]

I don't know about this particular group of students but usually it's the kids from two-three top schools that win in these kind of competitions. I can't remember the names right now but these are also the schools that are most difficult to get into, not some special labs for gifted.

It does show that "Thai style" education CAN produce results if administered properly. It shows that it is a bit premature to dismiss "Thai style" out of hand and replace it with "Western style". I think the problem is not in style but in implementation, shit schools will always be shit, not matter what curriculum they use.

We pay good money to give our kids the best possible education in Thai system and, I hope, it will produce results in the end. News like this look promising.

>>>

Innovation is not so much about having brains, but about proper management, about applying these brains in the best possible ways. Thailand is not even trying, so the brains are misused.

[chownah]

I went out and looked at the IMO site. Six contestants took a math test and depending on how well they did they got either a gold, silver or bronze medal. If all students got every problem correct then they would all get gold medals....this is nothing like the olympics at all....I'm kind of disappointed. There is no reason why they need to administer this test in one place like it was some kind of international challenge or something....it is just a math test and could just as easily be administered to kids all over the world.....seems like the entire structure of this IMO thing is to create competition on an international level......like the world needs more nationalisitc fervor.

[womble]

Its the weekend, and she likes to go fishing.

Many girls go fishing when they are bored..........

[geriatrickid]

I am not peeing on Thais. Take India for example. It ranks well below Romania and Iran. Well sorry to burst the bubble, but everyone knows India is chock full of renowned mathematicians and some of the world's leading statisticians. Again, I say that the results indicate nothing, except that some kids were well trained to answer the types of questions that would appear on the tests.

There is a difference between mathematics and arthimetic. Adept number crunchers do well as accountants and actuaries. Skilled mathameticians are the people that explain the mysteries of the cosmos, unlock secrets of genes and molecules and do the permutations that make sense out of waves. Mathematics is a study of patterns and relationships. It requires vivid imaginations and original thought. It is also characterized by a strict language using order, defined terms and symbols. This is why many mathematicians are also talented artists. A good scientist combines multiple skills including mathematical problem solving. Go have a look at the people that are Abel laureates and you will understand the point.

[lazeeboy]

take there calculators away ,and the world would be on a par ,cant believe the kids of today cant work out the easiest math without a machine.

[canadiangirl]

I went out and looked at the IMO site. Six contestants took a math test and depending on how well they did they got either a gold, silver or bronze medal. If all students got every problem correct then they would all get gold medals....this is nothing like the olympics at all....I'm kind of disappointed. There is no reason why they need to administer this test in one place like it was some kind of international challenge or something....it is just a math test and could just as easily be administered to kids all over the world.....seems like the entire structure of this IMO thing is to create competition on an international level......like the world needs more nationalisitc fervor.

The problems are actually quite difficult. Many university students would struggle to solve them, and it is a competition for high school students.

Here's an example of a problem:

Show that for each prime p, there exists a prime q such that np - p is not divisible by q for any positive integer n.

Can you solve it Chownah?

The teams are drawn from the top math students in every country, and many of these students don't manage to solve all the problems. If you actually win a gold medal, you will most likely get a full scholarship to the school of your choice when you apply, if schools don't run after you to offer you admission in the first place.

[canadiangirl]

I am not peeing on Thais. Take India for example. It ranks well below Romania and Iran. Well sorry to burst the bubble, but everyone knows India is chock full of renowned mathematicians and some of the world's leading statisticians. Again, I say that the results indicate nothing, except that some kids were well trained to answer the types of questions that would appear on the tests.

There is a difference between mathematics and arthimetic. Adept number crunchers do well as accountants and actuaries. Skilled mathameticians are the people that explain the mysteries of the cosmos, unlock secrets of genes and molecules and do the permutations that make sense out of waves. Mathematics is a study of patterns and relationships. It requires vivid imaginations and original thought. It is also characterized by a strict language using order, defined terms and symbols. This is why many mathematicians are also talented artists. A good scientist combines multiple skills including mathematical problem solving. Go have a look at the people that are Abel laureates and you will understand the point.

Before you attempt to lecture me any further, as you seem fond to do in your posts, I should perhaps mention I have a math degree.

You don't really need to tell me what mathematics is.

Edited September 29, 2007 by canadiangirl

[canadiangirl]

I don't know about this particular group of students but usually it's the kids from two-three top schools that win in these kind of competitions. I can't remember the names right now but these are also the schools that are most difficult to get into, not some special labs for gifted.

It's the same in Canada and the US, I think. I would assume that top schools in most places would be filled with some combination of the very bright (who could get in on scholarships), and those with a lot of money and/or connections. I was trying to see if the competitors' schools were listed anywhere, but I didn't find them.

It does show that "Thai style" education CAN produce results if administered properly. It shows that it is a bit premature to dismiss "Thai style" out of hand and replace it with "Western style". I think the problem is not in style but in implementation, shit schools will always be shit, not matter what curriculum they use.

We pay good money to give our kids the best possible education in Thai system and, I hope, it will produce results in the end. News like this look promising.

That's what I thought too.

[highdiver]

well done Thailand.

a few weeks ago there was a disussion in the economic thread where some members insisted the Thaialand is slacking behind and abou the superiority of wesern education.

well its gone... it used to be... and well done for thailand for moving forward. there is still a long way to go but this is a step in th right direction.

[LeungKen]

Hi Canadiangirl, can you publish the results as I wanna check to see if we beat the Plurry Poms

[A_Traveller]

Unfortunately for those who claim this is some great breakthrough, Thailand's youth has been winning gold medals in many such competitions for years, but for whatever reason(s) one wishes to attribute, these results reflect neither the Thai education system in the pacific, nor ironically the specific. The critical supporting skills required to leverage these mathematical endeavours into a dynamic questioning mindset required for modern business {or academic} development is sadly lacking, even in such bemedalled individuals.

Regards

PS Answer: Fermat

Edited September 29, 2007 by A_Traveller

[canadiangirl]

Hi Canadiangirl, can you publish the results as I wanna check to see if we beat the Plurry Poms

Here's the Vietnamese website for the competition (I had to laugh when I saw the little animation of the towers of Hanoi -- a famous math problem -- guess where the contest was held? :-P

http://www.imo2007.edu.vn/

The results are really long (there are 93 countries competing), but if you tell me where you're from, and who the Poms are :-P I can post them for you if you want.

There's also a link to the results in my original post.

Edited September 29, 2007 by canadiangirl

[GuestHouse]

Maths and Music are two subjects for which people can have a natural and outstanding ability – Look at ‘child prodigies who enter university when they are very young and they are invariably studying either maths or music.

I think there is something else too – as en engineer mathematics is a core subject (although I know few engineers who are truly numerate) but I do no lots of engineers who are narrow minded in their general education, I'd go as far as to say many people entering engineering do so because they have a narrow view point.

And that comes to what I believe is the main failing of the Thai education – narrow, restricted and anti-questioning.

I see no paradox between being able to produce brilliant mathematicians while brain washing children to stay in their box.

[Gnarpjohan]

Maths and Music are two subjects for which people can have a natural and outstanding ability – Look at ‘child prodigies who enter university when they are very young and they are invariably studying either maths or music.

I think there is something else too – as en engineer mathematics is a core subject (although I know few engineers who are truly numerate) but I do no lots of engineers who are narrow minded in their general education, I'd go as far as to say many people entering engineering do so because they have a narrow view point.

It seems to me that mathematics is an introspective art to the extreme: it's about internalizing a given set of information and carrying out logical reasoning. Music can also be a quite "internal" activity, it happens largely in one human brain. Take those solo prodigy pianists for instance.

A bright mathematician turned financial economist that I know is extremely skilled in carrying out mathematical analysis once a well-defined problem is presented to her. Ask her to find an interesting economic topic to analyze, and she's dumbfounded. Luckily for her, she can make a good career out of her pure math skills.

Sometimes people who are great at logical reasoning once a well-defined problem is presented to them seem to be lacking in other areas, like making sense of more "fuzzy" situations our thinking "outside the box". If they lack such "external" skills, it is easy to see that such people could become narrow-minded. I suppose there are limits as to how much ability that can fit a human brain.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Gnarpjohan

[geriatrickid]

Before you attempt to lecture me any further, as you seem fond to do in your posts, I should perhaps mention I have a math degree.

You don't really need to tell me what mathematics is.

That's super. Illogical but just fab. Perhaps you did not take Statistics 201.

What is seen here here is the extreme end of the distribution curve. It is in no way shape or form indicative of the general population.

To state otherwise is the same thing as if I run into the MOH and state that there is an epidemic because 6 cases of an illness were identified. One does not have an epidemic until there are identified cases that exceed the normal expectancy.

Hence, the math results are not a reflection upon any country unless the results are demonstrated by a pattern in the general population. (This is an example of applied mathematical analysis. It is a compulsory course in most grad programs.)

I can see now why some profs try to avoid undergrad teaching assignments.

Edited September 29, 2007 by geriatrickid

[canadiangirl]

Before you attempt to lecture me any further, as you seem fond to do in your posts, I should perhaps mention I have a math degree.

You don't really need to tell me what mathematics is.

That's super. Illogical but just fab. Perhaps you did not take Statistics 201.

What is seen here here is the extreme end of the distribution curve. It is in no way shape or form indicative of the general population.

To state otherwise is the same thing as if I run into the MOH and state that there is an epidemic because 6 cases of an illness were identified. One does not have an epidemic until there are identified cases that exceed the normal expectancy.

Hence, the math results are not a reflection upon any country unless the results are demonstrated by a pattern in the general population. (This is an example of applied mathematical analysis. It is a compulsory course in most grad programs.)

I can see now why some profs try to avoid undergrad teaching assignments.

Well, for all your know-it-all pontificating, they apparently failed to teach reading comprehension where you went to school, because if you pay attention to my original post., I say:

Of course, it's not a complete picture of education: some of the countries groom top students in elite schools, while mostly ignoring everyone else. But still, interesting. There are good students and schools out there somewhere in Thailand.

A few students don't present a complete picture of education in any country. But given the grim picture painted of Thai education, it's interesting that these few students scored much higher than most Western countries. Why is that? There are many possible explanations. Guesthouse had an interesting one, as a few other people. I'm more interested in exploring those explanations than engaging in flame wars with pompous geriatrics, so I'm done with you.

[canadiangirl]

Maths and Music are two subjects for which people can have a natural and outstanding ability – Look at ‘child prodigies who enter university when they are very young and they are invariably studying either maths or music.

I think there is something else too – as en engineer mathematics is a core subject (although I know few engineers who are truly numerate) but I do no lots of engineers who are narrow minded in their general education, I'd go as far as to say many people entering engineering do so because they have a narrow view point.

And that comes to what I believe is the main failing of the Thai education – narrow, restricted and anti-questioning.

I see no paradox between being able to produce brilliant mathematicians while brain washing children to stay in their box.

This is a very interesting explanation. I think there is definitely some truth to it. I was doing some reading about child prodigies a while back, an author noted what you did: child prodigies appear in very few fields, mostly in math and music. There are child prodigies for chess as well, and I think i-go. Even within math they mostly limit themselves to certain topics of study, like number theory. The reason the author gave is that some topics can be deeply understood by insight alone, while other topics require knowledge that builds on other knowledge, that builds on other knowledge, etc -- in mathematics, they topics are the domain of more mature mathematicians.

You raise a good point about many mathematicians and engineers having a very narrow view point. I think that is very, very true. A lot of my classmates laughed at the idea of anyone taking history, religion, politics, english as an elective. They force math students to take electives, and a bunch of my classmates just took physics. :-P You know -- to broaden their world. :-P

These contests involve some fairly creative problem-solving, but you can still be a creative mathematician without questioning anything else in the world around you.

A lot of countries who aren't known for the creativity and free-thinking of their education systems have very strong mathematics curriculum, China being a good example. There are a lot of strong mathematicians from Eastern Europe, and ther e wasn't much free thought there, until perhaps recently.

But it's still interesting that the Thai students did so well. Do you think it's a fluke? Perhaps a handful of bright students from a top international school? Students educated abroad? Maybe they were all Thai-Chinese? A broad pool of kids to choose from, resulting in more chances of finding prodigies? (China's success in these things seems to owe at least a little to this, IMHO) I'm wondering. What do you think?

[paulfr]

I teach Math in an English Program at a private high school in Bangkok.

IMO the top student are just as smart and disciplined as a Western student, but he will be the exception to the rest of the class. One good student does NOT reflect the rest of the country. And from what I have seen, education is not that important to most Thai's for very real complex cultural reasons.

Did you know that the present World English Scrabble champion is Thai ?

Edited September 30, 2007 by paulfr

[chownah]

I went out and looked at the IMO site. Six contestants took a math test and depending on how well they did they got either a gold, silver or bronze medal. If all students got every problem correct then they would all get gold medals....this is nothing like the olympics at all....I'm kind of disappointed. There is no reason why they need to administer this test in one place like it was some kind of international challenge or something....it is just a math test and could just as easily be administered to kids all over the world.....seems like the entire structure of this IMO thing is to create competition on an international level......like the world needs more nationalisitc fervor.

The problems are actually quite difficult. Many university students would struggle to solve them, and it is a competition for high school students.

Here's an example of a problem:

Show that for each prime p, there exists a prime q such that np - p is not divisible by q for any positive integer n.

Can you solve it Chownah?

The teams are drawn from the top math students in every country, and many of these students don't manage to solve all the problems. If you actually win a gold medal, you will most likely get a full scholarship to the school of your choice when you apply, if schools don't run after you to offer you admission in the first place.

After a few minutes of consideration I'm thinking that maybe your assertion, "Show that for each prime p, there exists a prime q such that np - p is not divisible by q for any positive integer n." is false.

Factor (np-p) into (n-1)(p). Clearly p is not divisible by q because p is prime....we only need to examine (n-1) and see if there exists some q so that (n-1) is not divisible by q....on the other hand if given a q, I can find some n so that (n-1) is divisible for that q then I have proven the assertion is false. I will now try to find the appropriate n given any q...... For every q let me chose n=q+1...then (n-1) becomes ((q+1)-1) which becomes (q).....and since q is definitely divisible by q, I have shown that for every q I can find an n so that (n-1) is divisible by q. QED...the assertion is false.

I haven't given this much thought so I might be mistaken. Could you have copied something wrong and this is why you are asking me to prove something that is false?

By the way, I am a rice farmer...but, like you, I have a degree in math....but that doesn't mean I'm right!!!!!..and furthermore having a degree in math doesn't mean that one necessarily knows ANYTHING about education....education is something entirely different from math.

Also, your humor is great: "The problems are actually quite difficult. Many university students would struggle to solve them"........most university students can not add fractions!!!!!!

Chonwnah

Edited September 30, 2007 by chownah

[chownah]

Are we certain that the six Thai kids that entered the contest were actually educated in Thailand at all?...or that they went to public schools?....or that if they went to private schools that the schools they went to used the Thai philosophy of education and instruction....or is it possible that they all went to private schools administered through western administrations?

Where did these six kids learn about math...and who should get the credit? My view is that the kids should get the credit...they did the work...not the nation.

Chownah

[TheWalkingMan]

Are we certain that the six Thai kids that entered the contest were actually educated in Thailand at all?...or that they went to public schools?....or that if they went to private schools that the schools they went to used the Thai philosophy of education and instruction....or is it possible that they all went to private schools administered through western administrations?

Where did these six kids learn about math...and who should get the credit? My view is that the kids should get the credit...they did the work...not the nation.

Chownah

Very good questions and I remember reading somewhere that usually the winners, or those who place high in international competitions, have been educated in more of an international setting. And without that international setting, their talents, in all probability (notice the math reference ), would never have been drawn out. Of course I could be wrong.

If someone knows the educational background of the team, it would be nice to know.

TheWalkingMan

[geriatrickid]

Chownah, you remind me of a wicked cool pathology prof I once had that would discuss the latest baseball results while fileting a specimen. Never missed a slice. I've made a mental note to check my facts before I get into a thread with you I want to come out intact.

[yugobrian]

Six Thai kids did great. Congratulations to them all. You are an inspiration to others.

Do we really need to say any more.