Snake Snake Fish Fish

[rixalex]

I'm sure this question must have already been posed and answered many times before on this forum - apologies for that.

Snake snake fish fish - Ngoo ngoo pla pla: I understand that this expression is used to convey a sense of having a very basic understanding of a language - is that correct? I only ever hear it used in relation to speaking a foreign language so assume it can't be used to describe other activities - why not? Can anyone explain where this expression comes from?

[legag]

I wonder too. Could it be both sneak and fish CAN'T go right striaght? Like when you speak with the broken and unable to make it right grammatically?

[meadish_sweetball]

Two of the consonants in the Thai alphabet are called 'ngaw nguu' and 'bpaw bplaa'. Supposedly 'phuud daai nguu nguu bplaa bplaa' is a reference to just knowing those two letters, i.e. very little. At least that is what I have been told by Thais - but it could be a folk etymology.

[loong]

รู้งูๆปลาๆ róo ngoo ngoo bplaa bplaa

is a Thai idiom and means

"A jack of all trades, master of none."

งูๆปลาๆ means "A little bit"

[meadish_sweetball]

Also see this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=55509

A Thai respondent at the time said it meant somebody who did not know something for real, and that the origin was due to some people not knowing how to tell snakes and fish apart (especially the difference between eels and water-living snakes).

[pattyboy]

I first hard about "gnu gnu pla pla" soon after I arrived in Thailand. I was having dinner with some Thai friends when another Thai person joined our group. He asked me (in Thai) if I could speak Thai. I responded with the standard line, "Phood Thai dai nit-noi, khrap" and he suggested that I should try using "gnu gnu pla pla" sometimes instead of "nit-noi", explaining that it basically meant the same thing but was more like Thai slang. I took his advice and was happy I did. Try it and I guarantee that 99 % of the time the Thai person you are be talking to will find it very funny, and they'll be rather surprised that they're hearing it coming from a farang's mouth. They seem genuinely happy to hear it (at least I hope they're not laughing because I sound foolish saying it).

[DavidHouston]

At first, I thought that the explanation is much easier than all that: Neither snakes nor fishes make any meaningful speaking sounds. So the phrase "snake snake; fish fish" means "I speak with all the communicative ability of a fish or a snake", i.e., not at all.

However, I looked up the phrase in several reference books is "คำคล้องจง, เสนห์ของภาษาไทย", "Harmonious Words, The Charm of the Thai Language", says, "งูๆ ปลาๆ ว. ไม่รู้จริง, มีความรู้เล็กๆ น้อยๆ", "Snake, snake; Fish, fish (idiom) meaning 'not to know the truth', to have only a little bit of knowledge."

One of my favorite books, "๒,๐๐๐ อุปมาอุปมาย", "2,000 Metaphors" says essentially the same thing then provides an example from "ขุนช้างขุนแผน" as follows:

ฝูงคนบนตลิ่งวิ่งสอสอ มดหมออยู่ไหนก็ไปหา

หมอที่มีมีครูงูงูปลาปลา นึกจะมาแทงเล่นอย่างเช่นเคย

(The above quote is a segment from the Internet; the book says, in part, "หมอที่ไม่มีครู"; my wife believes that the book is in error.)

fŏong kon bon dtà-lìng wîng sŏr-sŏr mót mŏr yòo năi gôr bpai hăa

mŏr têe mee mee kroo ngoo ngoo bplaa bplaa néuk jà maa taeng lên yàang chên koie

My feeble attempt at translation done with my wife's able assistance and not in rhyme is:

[The prelude is that a person is being held in the jaws of a crocodile.]

A crowd along the river bank mills around uncertain as to what to do

Someone runs to find a doctor

The only doctor available is one whose teacher knew little

His only response is to bleed the patient [or to poke him around with a stick] . . .

Source: http://www.b.yimwhan.com/board/show.php?user=windchimedream&topic=27&Cate=6

Can someone from our Thai community help us with the correct version of the poem and translation?

Edited October 10, 2007 by DavidHouston

[legag]

Yes, it means you know 'a little' but why can't be other animals? Why it has to be snake and fish???

[yoot]

At first, I thought that the explanation is much easier than all that: Neither snakes nor fishes make any meaningful speaking sounds. So the phrase "snake snake; fish fish" means "I speak with all the communicative ability of a fish or a snake", i.e., not at all.

However, I looked up the phrase in several reference books is "คำคล้องจง, เสนห์ของภาษาไทย", "Harmonious Words, The Charm of the Thai Language", says, "งูๆ ปลาๆ ว. ไม่รู้จริง, มีความรู้เล็กๆ น้อยๆ", "Snake, snake; Fish, fish (idiom) meaning 'not to know the truth', to have only a little bit of knowledge."

One of my favorite books, "๒,๐๐๐ อุปมาอุปมาย", "2,000 Metaphors" says essentially the same thing then provides an example from "ขุนช้างขุนแผน" as follows:

ฝูงคนบนตลิ่งวิ่งสอสอ มดหมออยู่ไหนก็ไปหา

หมอที่มีมีครูงูงูปลาปลา นึกจะมาแทงเล่นอย่างเช่นเคย

(The above quote is a segment from the Internet; the book says, in part, "หมอที่ไม่มีครู"; my wife believes that the book is in error.)

fŏong kon bon dtà-lìng wîng sŏr-sŏr mót mŏr yòo năi gôr bpai hăa

mŏr têe mee mee kroo ngoo ngoo bplaa bplaa néuk jà maa taeng lên yàang chên koie

My feeble attempt at translation done with my wife's able assistance and not in rhyme is:

[The prelude is that a person is being held in the jaws of a crocodile.]

A crowd along the river bank mills around uncertain as to what to do

Someone runs to find a doctor

The only doctor available is one whose teacher knew little

His only response is to bleed the patient [or to poke him around with a stick] . . .

Source: http://www.b.yimwhan.com/board/show.php?user=windchimedream&topic=27&Cate=6

Can someone from our Thai community help us with the correct version of the poem and translation?

You might be interested in reading from this page.

This is from that page:

ศุกร์ 2 ก.ค. 47

“งูๆปลาๆ”

น่าจะเกิดจากการจับปลา คือบางคนจับได้ปลาไหล แต่แยกไม่ออกว่าเป็นงูหรือปลา จึงเกิดเป็นคำเปรียบเทียบว่า รู้ไม่จริง หรือ รู้เพียงเล็กน้อย ทำงานอะไรก็ไม่ได้ดีมากนัก เช่น ฉันมีความรู้ภาษาอังกฤษแบบงูๆปลาๆ

As for the poem from "ขุนช้างขุนแผน", หมอ in this context doesn't mean doctor. It means the one who is a crocodile charmer. The same as when we say หมองู(snake charmer).

It's not easy to explain a particular sentence by without knowing the whole story.

หมอที่มีมีครูงูงูปลาปลา นึกจะมาแทงเล่นอย่างเช่นเคย - those crocodile charmers who learned from the teacher who know very little but thouth that they could handle with this crocodile( which is not normal crocodile and too dangerous than they expect).

[ajarnmark]

Yes, it means you know 'a little' but why can't be other animals? Why it has to be snake and fish???

Dude now you want to change the idioms/sayings/proverbs of Thai?

Why do we say "wise as an owl"? Why not any other animal?

In fact in most part of Asia, owl is considered to be a pretty dumb bird.

[Johpa]

The key is when using the phrase งูๆปลาๆ is to be sure you can pronounce the งู correctly, that is what subconsciously impresses the native Thai speaker.

[DavidHouston]

หมอที่มีมีครูงูงูปลาปลา นึกจะมาแทงเล่นอย่างเช่นเคย[/size] - those crocodile charmers who learned from the teacher who know very little but thouth that they could handle with this crocodile( which is not normal crocodile and too dangerous than they expect).

In "นึกจะมาแทงเล่นอย่างเช่นเคย" what is the meaning of "แทงเล่น"? Is the "crocodile charmer" using some sort of special stick or a sharp object like a knife? Yoot, thanks for the explanation of the poem.

Edited October 11, 2007 by DavidHouston

[yoot]

หมอที่มีมีครูงูงูปลาปลา นึกจะมาแทงเล่นอย่างเช่นเคย[/size] - those crocodile charmers who learned from the teacher who know very little but thouth that they could handle with this crocodile( which is not normal crocodile and too dangerous than they expect).

In "นึกจะมาแทงเล่นอย่างเช่นเคย" what is the meaning of "แทงเล่น"? Is the "crocodile charmer" using some sort of special stick or a sharp object like a knife? Yoot, thanks for the explanation of the poem.

Yes, they do. Isn't that how they kill crocodile?

[DavidHouston]

Yes, they do. Isn't that how they kill crocodile?

I thought that the หมองู was supposed to charm the crocodile, not kill it. But, seriously, in Thai literature, does the หมองู or หมอจระเข้ use a flute (like the pictures we see of a snake charmer in India) or a ปฏัก some other tool or instrument?

Edited October 11, 2007 by DavidHouston