Honda Phantom Engine Upgrade?

[pianoman]

I have read posts on various forums regarding having the 200cc engine of the Phantom bored out to except a new piston from Honda Japan thus making it a 250cc... I know that 50cc's does not sound like much, but a 25% increase in power could make this bike much more enjoyable to ride...

I would like to know if anyone has had this done, if so where and approximate costs... As I live up in Issan, I would prefer somewhere up this way, but might be willing to ride to Bangkok if I have to...

Thank you in advance for any and all information...

Pianoman

[jackcorbett]

I have read posts on various forums regarding having the 200cc engine of the Phantom bored out to except a new piston from Honda Japan thus making it a 250cc... I know that 50cc's does not sound like much, but a 25% increase in power could make this bike much more enjoyable to ride...

I would like to know if anyone has had this done, if so where and approximate costs... As I live up in Issan, I would prefer somewhere up this way, but might be willing to ride to Bangkok if I have to...

Thank you in advance for any and all information...

Pianoman

I was just reading in a forum devoted to the BMW R-65 that if one wanted a faster bike then one should simply go buy a larger bike. The R-65 was a 650. A number of guys in this forum souped up their R-65's getting about a 10 horsspower out of a 50 horsepower engine. But they all had longevity problems thereafter. I had a 1992 Mazda Miata with 116 horsepower. Had it superharged and "improved it in many other respects." Blew three engines because of the supercharger. Finally took it off and drove it many thousands of miles until at 145,000 miles the transmission quit. Mazda did not design this car at least in 1992 to sustain 180 horsepower when it was engineered to have only 116. I believe the transmission would have lasted forever.

I feel if Yamaha wanted 189 cc's out of a Nouvo which has 115 cc's it would have designed it that way in the first place. Those who want to do these after market kits are going to have huge problems. Interestingly enough for the U.S. market Honda makes a twin cylinder 250 cc. called the Rebel that looks a lot like the Phantom. But it really only puts out 234 cc's and this out of a twin. From what I've read the Phantom with just one cylinder and 200 cc's puts out the same horsepower.

[dave_boo]

I have read posts on various forums regarding having the 200cc engine of the Phantom bored out to except a new piston from Honda Japan thus making it a 250cc... I know that 50cc's does not sound like much, but a 25% increase in power could make this bike much more enjoyable to ride...

I would like to know if anyone has had this done, if so where and approximate costs... As I live up in Issan, I would prefer somewhere up this way, but might be willing to ride to Bangkok if I have to...

Thank you in advance for any and all information...

Pianoman

I was just reading in a forum devoted to the BMW R-65 that if one wanted a faster bike then one should simply go buy a larger bike. The R-65 was a 650. A number of guys in this forum souped up their R-65's getting about a 10 horsspower out of a 50 horsepower engine. But they all had longevity problems thereafter. I had a 1992 Mazda Miata with 116 horsepower. Had it superharged and "improved it in many other respects." Blew three engines because of the supercharger. Finally took it off and drove it many thousands of miles until at 145,000 miles the transmission quit. Mazda did not design this car at least in 1992 to sustain 180 horsepower when it was engineered to have only 116. I believe the transmission would have lasted forever.

I feel if Yamaha wanted 189 cc's out of a Nouvo which has 115 cc's it would have designed it that way in the first place. Those who want to do these after market kits are going to have huge problems. Interestingly enough for the U.S. market Honda makes a twin cylinder 250 cc. called the Rebel that looks a lot like the Phantom. But it really only puts out 234 cc's and this out of a twin. From what I've read the Phantom with just one cylinder and 200 cc's puts out the same horsepower.

You do have a valid point, but I think that your experience is probably a worst case secnario. For example, your supercharger upgrade was an increase of 155%. What this poster is asking about is only, at best, 125% increase in power. You were forcing more power into your engine, and he's asking about increasing displacement alone. Done properly, it can be an advantage, but the builder has to take in account the various other bits and bobs such as the carb, exhaust, et. al.

**edit**

I forgot to mention that many BMW forums, both bikes and cars, complain that it seems that BMW designs the majority of their engines for exactly the power that it leaves the factory with, no more.

Edited October 14, 2007 by dave_boo

[jackcorbett]

It is not just how you get the power increase, it is also the stress on the other components of the bike....for instance, the transmission in my Miata, which has proven to be the most reliable of all Mazdas which is no surprise as even though it's a sports car, its basic design dates back to 1990. Okay....take a Yamaha Nouvo which has just 115 cc's. There is also a 250 and a 400 cc. design for the U.S. market called the Reflex and the Majesty. Both employ twin drive belts whereas the Nouvo employs just one. Obviously the single belt in the Nouvo is not considered strong enough for these bigger motorbikes by Yamaha engineers. So at what point does one draw the line? At 160 cc's for an increased displacement of 45 cc's. At 180 or is it at 200? At some point the drive train starts to become unreliable and overstressed when additional horsepower is added. And how about even the brakes. It is one thing to have enough braking power to stop a bike that is capable of doing just 75 miles an hour but it is another if the same brakes are asked to stop a bike which has been souped up to do 90 miles an hour.

I would also be thinking of the overall quality of the cylinders and pistons one might be replacing on any vehicle. For instance BMW improved the quality of its cylinder linings on its motorcyles in its pursuit of gaining increased longevity. So, later model R-65's with Nikasil lined cylinders would outlast older models that did not employ it or at least that was the theory. Unless I knew differently as a certainly I'd go with original factory spec components over those designed in someone's barnyard shop for instance.

[pianoman]

It is my understanding that the Phantom is built in Thailand for Thailand, thus canont exceed the 200 cc engine size... Also that there is a similar model in Japan that has a larger cyclinder and piston, and that is the only difference between the two bikes...

Like I said, 50cc increase doesn't sound like much, but 25% increase in power would make this bike much more enjoyable... I am not looking to push the bike nor it's other components to their limits, just add a bit more power...

Pianoman

[JSixpack]

It is my understanding that the Phantom is built in Thailand for Thailand, thus canont exceed the 200 cc engine size... Also that there is a similar model in Japan that has a larger cyclinder and piston, and that is the only difference between the two bikes...

Like I said, 50cc increase doesn't sound like much, but 25% increase in power would make this bike much more enjoyable... I am not looking to push the bike nor it's other components to their limits, just add a bit more power...

Pianoman

Right. I've read some earlier post about the possibility of such an upgrade from 200 to 250cc, a mechanically safe, sound, and legit uprade, but nobody seems to know if it's done in Thailand or if so where. Have you checked w/ a large Honda dealer?

Yes, an extra 50cc would be welcome; other things equal, why not? Friend of mine has a Honda Rebel 250, a heavier bike but noticeably quicker (not that it's going to set any records).

[higgy88]

I have found over the years that, in general, making modifications to the engine to produce more power usually resulted in both short term performance improvements and long term durability problems. To specifically address boring out the 200 cc to 250 cc, I have no idea if it is safe to do this, but you need to be very careful about the cylinder wall thickness. If it is made too thin it's going to start cracking and your engine will be history.

[batami]

just musing on this.... I wonder if the crankcase on the 250cc Japanese model is the same as the 200cc model and whether the 250 cylinder can be dropped onto the current crankcase... buy from japan and fit.... but that would be too easy!!!! I guess the probability s low (despite parts standardization)

guess it is a search around in workshop manuals or the like; i did try asking my Honda dealer but got a complete blank....

hey ho, as I say just a thought.....

[dave_boo]

It is not just how you get the power increase, it is also the stress on the other components of the bike....for instance, the transmission in my Miata, which has proven to be the most reliable of all Mazdas which is no surprise as even though it's a sports car, its basic design dates back to 1990. Okay....take a Yamaha Nouvo which has just 115 cc's. There is also a 250 and a 400 cc. design for the U.S. market called the Reflex and the Majesty. Both employ twin drive belts whereas the Nouvo employs just one. Obviously the single belt in the Nouvo is not considered strong enough for these bigger motorbikes by Yamaha engineers. So at what point does one draw the line? At 160 cc's for an increased displacement of 45 cc's. At 180 or is it at 200? At some point the drive train starts to become unreliable and overstressed when additional horsepower is added. And how about even the brakes. It is one thing to have enough braking power to stop a bike that is capable of doing just 75 miles an hour but it is another if the same brakes are asked to stop a bike which has been souped up to do 90 miles an hour.

I would also be thinking of the overall quality of the cylinders and pistons one might be replacing on any vehicle. For instance BMW improved the quality of its cylinder linings on its motorcyles in its pursuit of gaining increased longevity. So, later model R-65's with Nikasil lined cylinders would outlast older models that did not employ it or at least that was the theory. Unless I knew differently as a certainly I'd go with original factory spec components over those designed in someone's barnyard shop for instance.

I do understand where you're coming from. However, you keep think really large increases in power. For instance, your example of the Nouvo is an increase of 140%(160cc), 157%(180cc), and 174%(200cc). The most obvious reason that they use a twin belt system in the states is that those listed bikes are 217% 319% larger capacity and obviously will have the increased torque to match it. And unless the plan is to live in the high RPM range that the increase of displacement will make fatter for the HP, the added forces at cruising speed shouldn't really add too much problems.

If the O.P. is simply looking to increase their displacement, and they change the cylinder and don't touch the bottom in, it will not increase their torque significantly. Granted, the HP will rise, but the long torque building stroke won't be there. The really "torquey" motors are those with smaller pistons (compared to high HP, low torque engines) and much longer throw on their crankshafts.

Your point about upgrading their brakes is completely valid also. Cooling capacity also has to be investigated, more frequent oil changes wouldn't be a bad idea, heavier duty battery for added power if you increase the compression ratio, a heavier duty starter for the same reason, et. al.

[Richard-BKK]

Increasing the Phantom from 200cc to 250cc is about 8mm of the cylinder wall thickness, not need to worry about that that much. The calculation of 25% increase in power is on the other hand much to high, I will say something not more then 10% and probably less.

The whole engine of the Honda Phantom was never designed to handle much more power, if you going to bore-up your Phantom, you also need to change the crankshaft and other bearings (and replace regular, as you engine is out of balance, therefore your bearings will wear much faster) and keep in mind that by using a larger piston you engine will produce much more vibration, the counterweight doesn't match the weight of the piston.

Also think of getting a bigger exhaust pipe, increase air-take and tune-up your carburetor. For the Honda Phantom they have high-performance camshaft sets, which increases your performance much more then just to bore-up your cylinder.

I have found over the years that, in general, making modifications to the engine to produce more power usually resulted in both short term performance improvements and long term durability problems. To specifically address boring out the 200 cc to 250 cc, I have no idea if it is safe to do this, but you need to be very careful about the cylinder wall thickness. If it is made too thin it's going to start cracking and your engine will be history.

[PeaceBlondie]

If you could replace the entire cylinder, you wouldn't be boring it. But the complications don't warrant it in any case.

Face it, the 200 Phantom is not designed for peak horsepower, and I have no idea about the torque rating, which is what really makes bikes accelerate. Maybe a Suzuki Savage 650 engine could be dropped into the Phantom. I had a 283 Chevy V8 in an Austin Healey, and the next owner dropped a Chevy V8 into my old Corvair Corsa. My ancient Triumph 650 twin was bored out to 700, but that's only a 17% increase.

You could buy a new 1200 cc BMW chopper; I've seen that in Thailand. Probably cost well over a million baht.

[Richard-BKK]

You can also buy a nice Kawasaki Vulcan 900 (900cc) direct from Kawasaki Thailand for 430,000Baht (new, including service)

http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article.php?st...saki-Vulcan-900

If you could replace the entire cylinder, you wouldn't be boring it. But the complications don't warrant it in any case.

Face it, the 200 Phantom is not designed for peak horsepower, and I have no idea about the torque rating, which is what really makes bikes accelerate. Maybe a Suzuki Savage 650 engine could be dropped into the Phantom. I had a 283 Chevy V8 in an Austin Healey, and the next owner dropped a Chevy V8 into my old Corvair Corsa. My ancient Triumph 650 twin was bored out to 700, but that's only a 17% increase.

You could buy a new 1200 cc BMW chopper; I've seen that in Thailand. Probably cost well over a million baht.

[VocalNeal]

I have read posts on various forums regarding having the 200cc engine of the Phantom bored out to except a new piston from Honda Japan thus making it a 250cc... I know that 50cc's does not sound like much, but a 25% increase in power could make this bike much more enjoyable to ride...

I would like to know if anyone has had this done, if so where and approximate costs... As I live up in Issan, I would prefer somewhere up this way, but might be willing to ride to Bangkok if I have to...

Thank you in advance for any and all information...

Pianoman

Pianoman,

Do you already have said 200 Phantom? If not there used to be a 150cc 2-stroke version which would have more top end but would not be a low speed plodder. It looks very similar except for the exhaust , oh and the radiator. The engine is disquised by some silly looking plastic mouldings. Engine is the same as the NSR150SP.

[pianoman]

Pianoman,

Do you already have said 200 Phantom? If not there used to be a 150cc 2-stroke version which would have more top end but would not be a low speed plodder. It looks very similar except for the exhaust , oh and the radiator. The engine is disquised by some silly looking plastic mouldings. Engine is the same as the NSR150SP.

Yes, I have owned this phantom for about 4 years, and although overall it isn't bad for what riding I do, I would like a little more power when riding up hills with the wife on the back... Actually I could increase the possibly increase the performance by loosing a few Kilos myself...

Pianoman

[PeaceBlondie]

This is the first I heard, that the Phantom 150 two stroke cruiser engine was the 'same as the NSR150SP.' What, 30 horsepower, and an engine that only comes alive after 8000 rpm?

[higgy88]

I've been riding my phantom for 6 years now. I got one of the first ones after they came out with the 200 cc 4 stroke (I believe the 150 cc 2 stroke was discontinued at that time). When I first got it I also wanted it to get a bit more of a kick out of it, and like you I talked to a number of people about what I could do. The end result was I did nothing and just accepted the bike for what it is, and I am very glad that I did as I now have to get it inspected every year in order to get my annual sticker. My biggest complaint is the vibrations in the handlebars which tend to put my hands to sleep. And by trying to get more power out of this bike you are going to make the vibrations even worse. It's still just a one cylinder engine. There is a very good reason you don't find big bore single cylinder engines, and you do not find any engines with odd number of cylinders ( 3, 5 or 7 cylinders) and that is because of the vibrations. My solution was to leave the wife at home.

[dave_boo]

I've been riding my phantom for 6 years now. I got one of the first ones after they came out with the 200 cc 4 stroke (I believe the 150 cc 2 stroke was discontinued at that time). When I first got it I also wanted it to get a bit more of a kick out of it, and like you I talked to a number of people about what I could do. The end result was I did nothing and just accepted the bike for what it is, and I am very glad that I did as I now have to get it inspected every year in order to get my annual sticker. My biggest complaint is the vibrations in the handlebars which tend to put my hands to sleep. And by trying to get more power out of this bike you are going to make the vibrations even worse. It's still just a one cylinder engine. There is a very good reason you don't find big bore single cylinder engines, and you do not find any engines with odd number of cylinders ( 3, 5 or 7 cylinders) and that is because of the vibrations. My solution was to leave the wife at home.

Actually one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) bikes in the world uses an odd number of cylinders. There's been a long history of using odd number of cylinders in vehicles, with the Mercedes 300D and the Chevy Colorado springing to mind. It's not the number of cylinders, but rather the balancing that needs to go into it. For instance, a Vee engine at 90* angle will not require a balancer, but at 180* it will shake just like a single. Of course, there are balancers, but as you pointed out, if you go upbore, you're gonna overwhelm whatever one is currently on it.

[VocalNeal]

and you do not find any engines with odd number of cylinders ( 3, 5 or 7 cylinders) and that is because of the vibrations.

5 cyl. Audi, VW, Mercedes, Volvo, Fiat, Chevrolet, Isuzu, Hummer, Routmaster Bus, and some older Ford tractors.5 cyl

3 cylinders ? Subaru Justy, a whole bunch or Japanese Keicars, Saab 96, old Auto Union, Smart Deisel

3 cyl

Yes no sevens but then again there are marine diesels.

[higgy88]

Thank you very much boys. I stand corrected and with your permission I would like to retract that statement. However, I still stand by my statement that internal combustion engines with odd number of cylinders pose much more complex dynamics than engines with even numbers, produce much higher second order vibrations that must be addressed and controlled, and in general are much more difficult to design. And they are limited to only the inline configuration (If you can find me a V or opposed 3 or 5 cylinder engine that actually made it into the production stage for commercial use then I'll retract this statement too and go back into my cave). Engine design has been going on for the last 100 years, with many different designs and configurations over the years with varying degrees of success.

As far as the OP wanting to get more kick out of his 200 cc single cylinder honda, from what I can remember way back in my good old days, the biggest single cylinder 4 stroker was a 500 cc Norton. These single cylinder bikes were known as "thumpers" because (I was told as I never actually ridden one) the rider could actually feel each of the power strokes as he rode down the street. So, do you guys know of bigger ones and/or have any other comments on single cylinder motor bikes? My phantom is a nice bike, for what it is, but it is the only single cylinder bike I have ever ridden and as I said I really don't like the vibrations and I can see trying to get more power out of it is only going to make it worse.

[jackcorbett]

I owned first a 185 cc. Honda XL on off road bike, then thinking bigger is better I bought a 500 c.c. single cylinder Honda XL. It seemed a little cold blooded and you had to kick start it so it was harder to get the engine going than with the 185. It had too much torque and power to feel comfortable in the woods where the 185 excelled. But it had good power for the highway. I'd say it would do around 85 to 90 miles an hour. It did not vibrate badly at all as I can remember as Honda had done a good job counterbalancing it. And sure, it was not equal on the highway to the BMW twin 650 that replaced it but one must remember that it had tires that were also suitable for riding in the dirt and it was relatively light at around 300 pounds. Still, pretty smooth.

I read a number of reviews on BMW 650 single cylinder engines that were discontinued a couple of years ago. These had belt drive and had around 50 horsepower. From what I read their engines were very smooth on the highway and the bikes were suitable for touring. They only weighed around 385 pounds. These bikes were supposedly terrific fun and very agile in town or on twisty roads. And BMW is still making 650 single cylinder bikes but these are chain driven and more of a dual purpose kind of machine. From everything I've read all these BMW single cylinder bikes are very smooth and transmit little vibration to the driver. So yes.....it can be done with just one cylinder. For me this is a very appealing concept and far more of an attractive proposition than four cylinder motors on motorcycles which I feel are overkill and add too much weight and width to the bikes.

BMW also used to produce three cylinder bikes. That was about the same time when I bought my four cylinder BMW K 100 RS. I drove one of them once. And from what I experienced and from everything I read those three cylinder 750 cc. BMW bikes were significantly smoother than the four cylinder 1000 cc. models back then.

Edited October 26, 2007 by jackcorbett

[batami]

Phantom vibration is a pig and I also notice that it puts my hands to sleep on a long run - however, i have minimized it by fitting fatter foam-like handlebar grips - i brought them from Singapore , I am not sure if you can buy here. I tried in CM and drew a blank - maybe better luck in BKK . And I also wear motor cycle gloves which have a little bit of padding in the palms

B

[dave_boo]

Thank you very much boys. I stand corrected and with your permission I would like to retract that statement. However, I still stand by my statement that internal combustion engines with odd number of cylinders pose much more complex dynamics than engines with even numbers, produce much higher second order vibrations that must be addressed and controlled, and in general are much more difficult to design. And they are limited to only the inline configuration (If you can find me a V or opposed 3 or 5 cylinder engine that actually made it into the production stage for commercial use then I'll retract this statement too and go back into my cave). Engine design has been going on for the last 100 years, with many different designs and configurations over the years with varying degrees of success.

As far as the OP wanting to get more kick out of his 200 cc single cylinder honda, from what I can remember way back in my good old days, the biggest single cylinder 4 stroker was a 500 cc Norton. These single cylinder bikes were known as "thumpers" because (I was told as I never actually ridden one) the rider could actually feel each of the power strokes as he rode down the street. So, do you guys know of bigger ones and/or have any other comments on single cylinder motor bikes? My phantom is a nice bike, for what it is, but it is the only single cylinder bike I have ever ridden and as I said I really don't like the vibrations and I can see trying to get more power out of it is only going to make it worse.

Firstly, you're right about the boxer (horizontally opposed) engine never having odd number of pistons. However, don't think that you're out of the cave yet! Firstly, there's the Honda RC211V motorcycle which has a V5, and there's the Volkswagen VR5 engine which a lot of people argue isn't a true V5, since the odd-even cylinders don't line up as is common in most V configurations.

[higgy88]

A staggered bank V 5 Honda! Amazing! I can't get the VW link for some reason (typical bad internet tonight and it keeps timing out) but no matter. No arguement from me as to whether or not it is a real V configuration. I will eat whatever amount of crow you wish to serve. I guess I've been living in this cave for too long. Rather than crawling back in I should stick my head out a little more often, and take a good look around farther than to my local Honda dealer. My Phantom is still a little shyt shaker, but I love her just the same. Much better than my Honda Dream, which is what I first got when I washed up on the shores of Thailand. What I would do if I only had more money!?