Incorrectly Ascribed Words For Thai Things

[realthaideal]

Got a topic here that bugs me. I like to communicate as clearly as possible and be well understood. Thing is sometimes a word invades the local English parlance disguised as a Thai word for conveying something that is actually as out of place as any other word would be. First example would be the overused 'Mahoot/ Mahut.' Start speaking Thai with anybody and ask about the lives of the mahoots and all you get is confusion. Aint no Thai guy ever heard of a mahoot. Why not just say 'elephant trainer?' Who was it that grabbed mahoot and thought that was better than calling the guy who drives or trains the elephants, the 'elephant handler?' And it's killing me right now as I've already opened the topic up, but I forget what they actually call it in Thai. Dangit! It's on some list of obscure words I keep somewhere and can't find. So what do you guys out there know to call them?

And then there's the Thai native cigarettes, be they tobacco or other herbs, rolled in the big spliff style or smaller, cigarette looking style. Once again if you start asking Thais what they're smoking in their 'cheroots/ cheruts' you get blank stares. Ain't no Thai person ever heard of no cheroot. They do know what a burii kiyoh is however- I do know that one off hand! Why oh why don't we just say either 'Thai cigarette' or 'burii kiyoh' rather than substitute another word from India (?) that is some sort of colonial British (??) leftover from other parts of the world? I find it highly out of place and doing nothing for the common good of being able to talk about these things we often run across in Thai life....and are rather curious to talk about.

And anybody else got some others ? There must be alot more that come to mind....

Pagoda's one too. But I think most ppl catch on to jedi pretty quickly when here.

[DavidHouston]

There is a story about elephants on http://elephantreintroduction.blogspot.com/. In a short piece on elephant's musth period, the English version says, "Most domesticated elephants get in musth until Stage 2 only because of the mahout have by then reduced food to limit their energy and the musth period will stop."

The translated Thai equivalent says, "แต่โดยปกติแล้ว ช้างส่วนใหญ่จะมีอาการตกมันแค่ระยะที่ 2 เท่านั้น เนื่องจากผู้ดูแลช้างจะทำการควบคุมเรื่องการให้อาหารของช้าง "

I believe that the original is the English version. The English uses the word "Mahout"; the Thai uses the very straight-forward term, "ผู้ดูแลช้าง", he who looks after the elephant.

[realthaideal]

My point exactly DH. Why on Earth are you gonna start writing mahout everywhere when it's not English, or Thai?

Let's better just go call the elephant caretaker a ผู้ดูแลช้าง as you've pointed to, or even just elephant caretaker. Done. Substituting another Asian word for either English or Thai into English is like ppl coming here thinking all Thais eat everything with chopsticks. They're all the same aren't they ?!! Of course not, and as well, you can't spit out Indian words for a Thai thing in English or in Thai. It's all just so much gibberish. Why not use the Estonian words for 'elephant' and 'handler' ? I like Estonian much better. Much more exotic.

I also love that your reference talks of a 'musth.' Either you typed something wrong 2X, or I'm ignorant of English, or they managed to use two misappropriated words at once. Who one Earth ever says 'musth?' I wouldn't know one if it was sitting right outside my door.

So I googled every spelling of mahout as I could after posting and did find this one กวย explained on Thai learning's website I believe, as being one who is masterful in driving elephants or in breaking wild ones. SO that could be. They did not use an example to say if it's used alone or as a helper + elephant กวย ช้าง. Still I'm feeling that on my endless scribbled notes of Thai vocab there's a better phrase out there.......

And also, that word skirts some trouble areas for tone and maybe accidentally saying a naughty word, which could then have you wind up in the 'Worst Thai Messups' thread, especially if you pointed at the guy and called him one.

[mangkorn]

<<Either you typed something wrong 2X, or I'm ignorant of English, or they managed to use two misappropriated words at once.>>

Two of the above choices are wrong. Musth is most definitely a word.

<<Who one Earth ever says 'musth?' I wouldn't know one if it was sitting right outside my door.>>

People who study elephants use the word. There couldn't be one sitting outside your door, because it isn't a thing: it is a state; a phase of the mating cycle. "Rut," if you like, but that word is used for other mammals, while "musth" is specific to male elephants.

The cited reference does not talk of "a musth," it talks of being "in musth."

Of course, if there is ever a bull in musth outside your door, you'd probably know it...

Cheers.

[meadish_sweetball]

The words you are referring to likely entered the English language during colonialism and are, at a guess, loans from Malay, Hindi, Burmese, being the most similar cultures to Thailand that a reasonably large number of English speakers had been in contact with.

[DavidHouston]

The words you are referring to likely entered the English language during colonialism and are, at a guess, loans from Malay, Hindi, Burmese, being the most similar cultures to Thailand that a reasonably large number of English speakers had been in contact with.

My thought exactly! Here from Websters:

"Main Entry: ma·hout; Pronunciation: \mə-ˈhau̇t\; Function: noun; Etymology: Hindi & Urdu mahāwat, mahāut; Date: 1662; a keeper and driver of an elephant"

Wow! 1662, that's even older than me! Here is the other:

Main Entry: musth; Variant(s): also must \ˈməst\; Function: noun; Etymology: Hindi & Urdu mast intoxicated, from Persian; Date: 1878; a periodic state of the bull elephant characterized especially by aggressive behavior and usually connected with the rutting season

Meadish hit it right on the head. These are words with a history; words which English adapted from its colonial period. And, 1662 is very early in England's colonization. Here is the etymology from the Webster's Unabridged:

Etymology: Hindi mahwat, mahut, from Sanskrit mahmtra of great eminence, from mahat great + mtra measure, from mti he measures --

: a keeper and driver of an elephant

Note the usage in Thai from the Sanskrit "mahat": "มหา 1 [ADJ] great; large Syn. ใหญ่, ยิ่งใหญ่" and "mti": "มาตรา [N] system; unit; standard "

Edited November 17, 2007 by DavidHouston

[DavidHouston]

One more point regarding "chedi" and "pagoda". I believe that these are not synomous. Lexitron shows:

เจดีย์ 1 [N] pagoda; stupa; chedi

Class. องค์

Def. สิ่งซึ่งก่อเป็นรูปคล้ายลอมฟาง มียอดแหลม บรรจุสิ่งที่นับถือมีพระธาตุเป็นต้น, สิ่งหรือบุคคลที่เคารพนับถือ.

Sample:นักโบราณคดีขุดพบพระเครื่องเป็นจำนวนมากที่เจดีย์เก่าในจังหวัดอยุธยา

"Archeologists have excavated many small Buddha images at ancient stupas in Ayuthiya Province."

Etymology: Portuguese pagode oriental idol, temple, from a Dravidian source, from Sanskrit bhagavat, epithet of Hindu goddesses, feminine of bhagavat blessed, possessing good fortune

1 a : a Far Eastern structure resembling a tower of several stories that is often richly decorated and typically has projecting concavely curved roofs at the division of each story that terminate in sharp points turned upward but sometimes has a simple pyramidal outline and that is erected usually as a temple or memorial or edifice built out of personal piety either in isolation or as an adjunct to other usually sacred architecture b : a small often ornamental structure (as a summerhouse) resembling or suggestive of a pagoda in outline

2 : a gold or sometimes silver coin used in the subcontinent of India up to the second decade of the 19th century

Compare:

stu·pa Pronunciation: st(y)üp

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): -s

Etymology: Sanskrit stpa

: a hemispherical or cylindrical mound or tower artificially constructed of earth, brick, or stone, surmounted by a spire or umbrella, and containing a relic chamber ; especially : a Buddhist mound forming a memorial shrine of the Buddha

Note that the Webster's unabridge dictionary indicates that these words have very different meanings, even though Lexitron includes the word "pagoda" as a defintion of chedi.

Edited November 18, 2007 by DavidHouston

[mr_hippo]

The OP criticises the use of 'mahout' - an adopted English word but freely uses 'cheroot' which is another adoptee [originally Tamil and adopted by the Portuguese]

English is a living, breathing language; it is constantly changing - bringing in new words and changing the meaning of others. These days I would not be happy to be 'mugged' but 30 years ago I would have been! Elephants are not native to the British Isles so it is natural that we adopted 'mahout' from India where they use mahouts. African elephants do not have mahouts so no native word exists. Other Indian loan words include khaki, jodhpurs and mulligatawny (soup) which sounds like an Irish word!

It is fascinating to find out where words come from, for example 'Canada' from the the Huron-Iroquois word for village 'Kanata'. Look up the origin of the word 'kangaroo'!

Edited November 18, 2007 by mr_hippo

[DavidHouston]

Why not use the Estonian words for 'elephant' and 'handler' ? I like Estonian much better. Much more exotic.

BTW, how does one say "musth" in Estonian?

[Johpa]

I believe that the original is the English version. The English uses the word "Mahout"; the Thai uses the very straight-forward term, "ผู้ดูแลช้าง", he who looks after the elephant.

There is more common word for mahout in Thai, kwan chaang. <sorry, no Thai font>

[phuketsub]

I believe that the original is the English version. The English uses the word "Mahout"; the Thai uses the very straight-forward term, "ผู้ดูแลช้าง", he who looks after the elephant.

There is more common word for mahout in Thai, kwan chaang. <sorry, no Thai font>

I agree that kwan chaang is more common, especially in the Thai media. I believe the spelling is ควาญช้าง

.

I think ผู้ดูแลช้าง sounds just as formal at the English translation "he who looks after the elephant".

[mangkorn]

"ganja" - which many people think is Caribbean, or African, is actually Sanskrit also.

[KhaoNiaw]

Being from the US, and not a son of British colonial expansion, neither mahout nor cheroot were in my vocabulary before coming here. As a good student of Thai language I find it silly, yes silly, that we appropriate these words into the local English parlance rather than use either a straightforward English word/phrase, or the proper Thai words. This would make for better communication. Again, mahout and cheroot are as lost with a Thai guy as would be the Estonian euqivalents. This to me is arbitrary and is like assuming all Asians use chopsticks because of the shape of their eyes.

So, really you're complaining about the use of English words that you're not familiar with, even though they are English.

I'd never come across 'mahout' before coming to Thailand - I'd never needed it, I presume. But it didn't take long to pick it up, particularly as it is used in the main English-language media here. I've never even tried using it with a Thai when speaking Thai though because it's not a Thai word.

'Cheroot' I knew, but I must admit it's not a word I would use for those Thai roll-ups and I've never heard anyone use it that way - but I wouldn't try and use it in Thai conversation because it's not Thai.

Their use isn't random - they're English words that can be used to refer to something in Thailand when speaking English. They haven't been appropriated from another language just to use here. Appropriation from Thai will most easily occur when there is no existing word in English. Why did you use the word 'chopsticks' above, for example, not 'takeab'?

Edited November 20, 2007 by meadish_sweetball

[realthaideal]

I know n appreciate that the words I mentioned initially come from Indian Sanskrit origins; I allude to that in the original post. However the point was that these words are actually a cause for more miscommunication than understanding.

Being from the US, and not a son of British colonial expansion, neither mahout nor cheroot were in my vocabulary before coming here. As a good student of Thai language I find it silly, yes silly, that we appropriate these words into the local English parlance rather than use either a straightforward English word/phrase, or the proper Thai words. This would make for better communication. Again, mahout and cheroot are as lost with a Thai guy as would be the Estonian equivalents. This to me is arbitrary and is like assuming all Asians use chopsticks because of the shape of their eyes. Just because India is Asia minor, that doesn't make a word from there any more appropriate when Thai has its own words to offer up for use. And I understand that language is elastic and that borrowing and drift happen. That's fine. But that is a lecture on language in general and isn't the point here.

Essentially I'm lodging a complaint at the randomness of the use of these words. It is rhetorical. But in my own writing and communications with expats I find it much more interesting and informative to use the real words that the Thais use so that the Farang can better communicate with the them - not go around using a foreign word thinking it is of Thai origins and then causing confusion for themselves and others.

I then end the original post asking if anybody else has any thoughts along similar lines, ie are there any other oddly appropriated words you can think of or that bother you when you come across them ? And what are the better Thai equivalents we should be looking for ?

Those are the two major points of the post.

From there we can get into the etymology to whatever degree that serves, but more I want to discuss words that are just grabbed and stuck into the language, and maybe work as impostors for Thai words causing confusion - as Mahout and Cheroot sound foreign enough to the Farang ear to be mistaken for actually coming from Thai. And beyond that also discussing the proper Thai word so that we can all be on the same page as the populace when we talk with them. I guess I just like lists. So there are my two words. Anybody else got any more ?

[mr_hippo]

Just because India is Asia minor,

Has someone moved India to Turkey? If you do a search for 'Asia Minor', you will find that Asia Minor was roughly where modern Turkey is!

As a good student of Thai language I find it silly, yes silly, that we appropriate these words into the local English parlance rather than use either a straightforward English word/phrase, or the proper Thai words.

Do you own a pair of 'jeans'? Please use the English word/phrase for 'jeans'.

Do you eat 'pizza'? Please use the English word/phrase for 'pizza'.

What are the straightforward English words/phrases for the following? tobacco, chili, husky, lacrosse, tepee, hammock, kayak, igloo - need I go on?

...as Mahout and Cheroot sound foreign enough to the Farang ear to be mistaken for actually coming from Thai.

As John McEnroe says "You cannot be serious". It sounds foreign so it must be Thai!

[appleman]

Linguistically, when a word is borrowed from one language into another then it becomes part of that second language. Thus, mahout (from Hindi, "khaaw chaang" in Thai) and cheroot (from Tamil, "kee yoh" in Thai) are English words, and have been for a very long time. When you use them you are speaking English, not using a word from a foreign language. BTW, I also am an American and have known these words from a very young age. I was lucky to have read Kipling (Jungle Bood, et al).

[mangkorn]

Actually, "chili" is an English word - the anglicanized version (or, some of us would say, the bastardization, of the original "chile").

As for realthaideal's concerns, I might nominate "chopsticks" as a word for deletion. No such thing in Thailand, nor anywhere in Asia, actually.

Then again, that is what farangs call them, and if the point is communication - well, it makes sense for them to use that word when talking to each other.

I do appreciate realthaideal's concerns and points made, but if he is referring to farangs, let's face it: a rare few actually bother to learn enough Thai to be able to put a complete sentence together in the language; they're not going to care much about whether loan words which are familiar to them are even applicable in Thailand.

They should, but they won't.

Hmm...we never did come up with a Thai equivalent for "beating a dead horse," or did we?

Cheers.

[stateman]

I guess I just like lists. So there are my two words. Anybody else got any more ?

Godown n. In India and East Asia, a warehouse, especially one at a dockside.

This is not an original Thai word. It has since been written in Thai as โกดัง.

It has been adopted as mainstream Thai word now, as it is 'the' word to use for such warehouse at the port.

[stateman]

I guess I just like lists. So there are my two words. Anybody else got any more ?

Godown n. In India and East Asia, a warehouse, especially one at a dockside.

This is not an original Thai word. It has since been written in Thai as โกดัง.

It has been adopted as mainstream Thai word now, as it is 'the' word to use for such warehouse at the port.

[Stephen Cleary]

So, how about the word 'Rickshaw' then, which is Japanese in origin? Or should we just call them 'Samlor Theep'.

Or how about a longyi (if one has ever heard of it!). Well, they are also called 'Sarong' in English but in Thai language, Sarongs are what women wear and not men!

What a headache!

One thing which bugs me a little, is when folk try to translate quite obvious Thai words into English. Take for example a Songthaew, why try and translate it to a 'passenger pick-up' or &lt;deleted&gt; 'baht bus'! Just call it a Songthaew! I mean, whoever tries to translate the word Soi? Could you imagine someone saying 'Nana Plaza is on 'Sukhumvit Lane 4'.

[phibunmike]

So, how about the word 'Rickshaw' then, which is Japanese in origin? Or should we just call them 'Samlor Theep'.

I think rickshaw is an abbreviation for jin-rick-sha, which I believe is Chinese.

Mahout is perfectly reasonable as an adopted English word, as we never had need for such a word before colonial India. Other borrowed words from India include bungalow and verandah. (We have modified the meaning of bungalow to mean a single storey residence, whereas in India they can have more floors.) Another borrowed word to do with animal handlers is 'syce', still used in Singapore but rarely heard in England - perhaps because of the shared colonial background.

When we use the word 'mahout' in Thailand, it is because we only know the English word, not the Thai word.

Cheers,

Mike