Looking For Advice Please...

[ThaiLife]

I am looking for some possible ideas of what to do next ..

We have an 18 Month old shitzu bitch,( Pinkey ) had her from a 2 month old

puppy, she's in the past been ok no major health problems

for some Months She seem's to have got what I can

only described as depressed and quiet.

So we decided to get her a friend ( a bitch shitzu puppy ) to may be to see if this would help

( see my previous post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=151044 )

well things have turned out a bit different from the way we expected it to,

The new Puppy ( Rose ) has now established her self as I think the ''leader''

of the pack , and seems to not be put off at the size difference between

her and Pinkey any way . Our real concern now is that Pinkey has for some weeks

been Vomiting yellow fluid ( Two or Three times a week ) which I think my be stomach bile

she seems to be eating a little bit less than normal but does not seem to be loosing weight,

drinking about the same amounts, sleeping more and pooing less

she's had her regular worming tablets, but she is definitely looking as I say sad, depressed and lethargic

so we have a Bitch who is ..

18 months old

up to date with worming tablets

Vomits Two to Three time a week ( all ways Yellow Fluid )

Eating a little less

Not apparently loosing weight

Drinking about the same amounts

Sleeping more

Pooing less

And looks sad, depressed and lethargic

So we took her to a local Vet , and requested a blood test the results came

back nothing found, and the vet was not too helpful on which way to go from here

So I was thinking of trying a second vet just to get some sort of second

opinion , ive done a google search and its page after page of '' Vomiting Yellow Fluid ''

which it looks could be many things..? , I just wondered if any forum members

had experienced this Vomiting yellow fluid problem with their dogs ..? or can may be recommend

the best action we can take next.

Thanks

TL

[bina]

lhaso apsho's also seem to have that: if his stomach has been empty too long, etc. acid reflux thing... but u say also lethargic, depressed? eating less, sleeping more? doesnt sound just psychological

***u didnt say about her stools? are they slimey? globules of fatty stuff in them? darker then usual?

*** how is her coat? bare (thinner fur) areas?

*** what is her urine like? strong yellow or diluted?

*** is she drinking much more then usual?

i'm just throwing out questions that might help narrow down a diagnoses.

did the vet check endocrine problems (thyroid, pancreas liver)

i did notice that shitzu are prone to some kind of renal (kidney) problems specific to the breed: check out the possibility.

i know that for thyroid checks we had to do a series as with people a single blood test doesnt always show the real picture (titre ing is needed)

what about changing to one of neienke's famous BARF diets (raw meat/rice), or a different kibble with less grain (which seems to be a culprit in many doggy digestive and skin problems), or even cooked home food minus all the spices and things...

bina

israel

just ideas...

[BambinA]

If the result of CBC and Blood chemistry are normal, she may have a sign of "Acute Gastritis" which comes from stressful, spoiled food, foriegn body and unknown cause.

Symptomatic Tx

- antiemetic drug such as metoclopramide

- H2 blocking agent for reducing gastric acid secretion as cimetidine or ranitidine

- diet : low fat and low nondigesible fiber formula as jok (congee) or i/d science diet

- Antibiotic (is used in some necessary cases)

- increase the lactobacilus by feeding yoghurt or yakhut

If the sign is not improve , you may have to check the level of thyroid hormone T4 , blood sugar and etc.

[Nienke]

As Bambina said, it can be an stomach upset caused by stress. If this stress is caused by her anxiety due to the new-comer any medical treatment might only solve the problem temporarily if the underlying cause hasn't been addressed.

How is Pinkey now towards the puppy or when the puppy is in her neighborhood? Did she accept the puppy? Is she still scared?

Nienke

[ThaiLife]

Thanks bina , BambinA and Nienke for your comments and support

well to start Pinkey was showing signs of being quiet.and I saw her

eating grass, before we got Rose, which we did to give Pinkey a

play mate when Rose first arrived Pinkey just ran into a bed room and hid under the bed

then Pinkey developed a watering at the mouth problem , which has now stopped

so may be the watering at the mouth must have been some sort of anxiety thing

going on with Pinkey with the arrival of Rose.

Well from the second day Rose arrived she would not leave Pinkey alone constantly

jumping on Pinkeys back and biting her fur, Pinkey takes this even to this day

Rose still keeps trying to jump on Pinkeys back , but now Pinkey will some times snap

back at Rose and then Rose will lay on her back in submission and not move

so it looks like theres some sort of '' battle'' going on with them both to who will

be the pack leader, but getting back to the current problem with Pinkey

I have been thinking if her current Vomiting yellow fluid is any way related to

Rose arriving , or is it just a coincance ..? could it be the new situation is just too

much fro Pinkey to cope with and its causing her to be too stressed out and the stress is

causing the Vomiting yellow fluid ..? or could there be another cause of the Vomiting

as BambinA says due to Acute Gastritis Etc.

The blood test did not show any thing , but I must admit I was not too

impressed with the way the vet did things , and no blood report was offered

only a telephone call to say the blood test showed nothing , as for bina's

questions Pinkeys stools look the same as ever, her coat seems the same as ever,

also urine same as ever ,

So we have decided to try a new vet , and repeat the blood test just for a second

opinion if the blood work also shows nothing then we will have to re think

the next thing to do and will of course post the results..

many thanks TL

[sbk]

Behavioral issues that need to be addressed are most likely yours.

Something we learned the hard way is that dogs have a hierarchy. If you pet the puppy first, give it food first, pay it more attention then you are telling the older dog that he is at the bottom of the hierarchy and the puppy above. This is a sure fire way to have problems. I learned to give the dominant dog (and in this case it should be the first and older dog) attention first, food first.

It doesn't address the health issues but could go a long way towards making your dog feel that it is back in its rightful place.

[ThaiLife]

The Two in Question

TL

[Nienke]

Well from the second day Rose arrived she would not leave Pinkey alone constantly

jumping on Pinkeys back and biting her fur, Pinkey takes this even to this day

Rose still keeps trying to jump on Pinkeys back , but now Pinkey will some times snap

back at Rose and then Rose will lay on her back in submission and not move

so it looks like theres some sort of '' battle'' going on with them both to who will

be the pack leader

Rose is doing what puppies nomally do and that's play. While playing she is looking where her boundaries are. From the above quote it sounds that the hierarchy is clear. Pinkey puts up with Rose's puppy behavior till a certain point and then with a snap she tells Rose to back of and show manners. Rose accepts this by throwing herself on her back in submission. So, Pinkey is the nr. 1 and Rose accepts this.

But do I understand well, that Pinkey is pretty much the same as she was before Rose came, except for the lethargy and the vomiting? Or does she try to avoid Rose as much as she can? Does she sometimes answers Rose's invitations to play?

As Thailife said that Pinkey started to have symptoms already before Rose came, it makes me suspect there might be a physical cause more than a mental cause. At the kennel it happens on a regular basis that nothing is found in the feces under the microscope, but that later on it turns out that the dog DID suffer from intestinal parasites. You might ask the vet to send the feces to a lab, where they make a culture or something. This is a more accurate test than just looking under the microscope. Grass eating can be a sign of intestinal parasites. I've seen it especially when the dog suffered from hookworm. Then, a dog that suffered from tapeworm (turned out later) just loved to eat the flowers of a certain tree (forgot the name). These flowers are used against digestive upsets in the Thai herbal medicine.

Nienke

[ThaiLife]

Thanks for the replys ...

Nienke your question ... Does she sometimes answers Rose's invitations to play?

I would say no , now when Rose wants to play , Pinkey seems really not to want to know

and will just go and lie down some where and seems to have no interest in any thing

just lying down sleeping the only time now Pinkey seems to get up and move is

when my wife arrives home.

its at times like these I wish they could speak

Thanks TL

[Nienke]

Gosh, that doesn't sound to me that she won't play or interact out of fear, but because she is not feeling well. Will definitely go for another physical check up, and if possible with X-rays and ultra-sound done as well.

I have no idea what it is that bothers Pinkey, but just yesterday I went back with a GSD to the vet because also she isn't eating well, is lethargic, and there was some sort of bump appearing in the abdomen area. This bumnp wasn't visible nor we (the vet and me) could feel it when I went for a full blood plus kidney and liver test and SNAP test a week before. The blood test came back normal and the SNAP test negative. Turns out she has a major (bigger than my fist) in her bladder which is attached to her intestines and, thus, can't be removed. Diagnosis most probably cystadenocarcinoma. Prognosis extremely bad, probably not longer than 3 months to live. Absolutely major blimey!

Poor owners who have been informed already, but may not be back in time to say goodbye to their dog.

Anyway, it is possible that Pinkey is vomiting bile BECAUSE she isn't eating well and her stomach is empty. Never underestimate your gut feeling when it says something is wrong! I think it's important, though, that you go back to the first vet and ask for the blood results. Because you (and the vet) can compare the first results with the second (and third) one. Have you have a SNAP test done already?

Hope you find out quickly what bothers Pinkey.

Nienke

[ThaiLife]

Thanks again..

when we were last at the vet's there was no mention of ...a SNAP test

so may be I can talk to the next vet we go to about this, can you outline

just what a SNAP test involves please..?

Thanks TL

[Nienke]

The SNAP test tests for antibodies against one kind of (very common) tick disease, heartworm and lyme disease. Although, as it seems lyme disease hasn't occurred in Thailand yet.

Nienke

[ThaiLife]

Thanks Nienke

well we are going to see a new vet on Thursday , so now I know a few

more things I can ask a few more questions, I will post how things Go,

so fingers crossed ...

TL

[bina]

hi,

double check also the test for the thyroid thing that bambina mentioned;

but, also, it can be that she is stressed and the stress has woken up or instigated a physical problem, OR, that her way of dealing with stress to to boisterous pup is avoidance which in this case is sleeping, and the foamy vomit is just part of the stress...

BTW, with animals especially (also people) stress is not something to shove to the side and say 'no prob., its just stress.

animals develop acute stress reactions (immediate physical symptoms as illness) and chronic stress which is the 'silent killer' for many species, sometimes months after the first 'stressful' changes were made.

it could be (just speculating) that rosie is 'over harassing' pinkey and pinkey is just the sort that cant deal with rambunctious types (just like us and other animals)... i recently placed out a goat that was seriously underweight and hiding in the indoor rooms, never with the herd, not eating with them, and at the very bottom of the super rambunctious ladies' totem pole... now at her new home, she is alone and has gained weight, doesnt hide, and is dealing with a rather pushy donkey on the other side of her fence (she can go in and out of his area freely thru a crawly hole). they will introduce a younger female soon, but will let kiwi choose when she wants to deal and when not (ok this family is a little wierd about their animals but still..)

on the other hand, if it is stress and not a disease, i've found that b complex shots work for our ruminants and they work for people so perhaps they might help pinkey. not sure about b comlex and carnivores though...

and the froth, i just remembered about that: froth at her mouth (excess salivation) means lots of stomach acid which causes stomach pain which causes stress (another goat thing... i know its boring to hear about goats but it in this case just clicked in my brain) which causes the physical reactions of salivation, changes in hormones secretions of various cortoids (bambi correct my chemistry please: but its like the capture myopathy syndrome in wild animals which is just a case of stress causing death acute or chronic) therefore physiological reactions and its a VICIOUS CIRCLE.

so... usually if this is the case, then what bambi prescribed, plus TLC, and quiet restful envirnment and good easily digested food (for ruminants that would be 'no food concentrates only roughage hay'; to break the cycle. possibly some kind of antiinflammatory/analgesic again dont know for carnivores but thats our recipe for goats that are stressed out do to physical or environmental problems. i know this sounds wierd but our vets always start with : lets give her /him some pain killer that is also antiiflamatory, then deal with rest of the problem, and always includes quiet time, and a more easily digested diet suitable to the species. besides, of course, the blood work etc that would be done. sometimes surprise surprise, TLC and quiet worked out as the best together with treating the symptoms ....

long winded it would be easier to explain by phone......

anyway.

good luck

bina

Edited December 4, 2007 by bina

[ThaiLife]

Thanks bina

some good things to think about , and I will take your points up with the vet tomorrow

I think the confusing thing is trying to separate the symptoms for the before Rose arrived

and after Rose arrived , if we get an all clear from as many tests as we can then may be its

some sort of physiological reaction . so fingers crossed and I will post back how we get

on tomorrow..

Thanks TL

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thanks bina

some good things to think about , and I will take your points up with the vet tomorrow

I think the confusing thing is trying to separate the symptoms for the before Rose arrived

and after Rose arrived , if we get an all clear from as many tests as we can then may be its

some sort of physiological reaction . so fingers crossed and I will post back how we get

on tomorrow..

Thanks TL

All the very best with Pinkey.

[ThaiLife]

Thanks dr_Pat_Pong

I hope we can find the answer as I would not

Like to loose one of our little friends who gives

us so much joy with out asking much back in return.

TL

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thanks dr_Pat_Pong

I hope we can find the answer as I would not

Like to loose one of our little friends who gives

us so much joy with out asking much back in return.

TL

I have the same breed, younger but also female. Love her. Good luck.

[ThaiLife]

Well things have changed as ive said

tomorrow We have decided to seek another vet for a second opinion

but to day things have started to change

and what we are now also very

concerned about is that Pinkey has just started to day becoming more aggressive

towards Rose, I know there may be a battle going on to

make one of them the pack leader, but I was wondering

just how much physical contact should there be between

them both while this battle is being waged. now

Pinkey for what seems no other reason than Rose comes too

near her , will get into a fight and they both start snapping

and biting at each other, up to now there’s been serious

injuries , but later you will see them laying together.

The other things ive seen trigger off this behavior is

when they are both eating or my wife shows affection

to one of them . in you opinion have we got this

right … Pinkey was our first dog and she is older

than Rose , so Pinkey should be the leader of the

dog pack , we should feed the leader pinkey first

and she should be petted first . Rose should then

after Pinkey be fed and petted ..?

As for the snapping and biting each other , as we are

The Leader of the ‘’ whole ‘’ pack we should not

Allow Pinkey or Rose to fight it out … right

Am I missing some thing here ..?

this is turning into some thing else

thanks TL

[elfe]

well, rose is just a puppy.

if i have a new puppy here, i treat them first and also tell others off who would growl at new puppy. this works fine. but then my dogs always have others to play with and learn to leave the ones alone which don't like it.

if i get an older dog, i will tell the new dog off if it is nasty and actually let them be, after a while the place of the new dog will be clear, sometimes it takes a few fights...

as you got only the two, rose does not have any other dogs to play and might really get pinkey on her nerves, as pinkey seems not to be fond of playing much with rose? this might change in the future or get worse, who knows. but for now you should interact if one is inferior, esp. if rose is a small puppy. also, if you have the feeling that pinkey suffers from rose being there, seperate them, even for a while or when you spent intense time with them or feeding, just let them be on their own then and feel good that they get all attention and food, in their view.

just my thoughts

[ThaiLife]

Hi elfe ,

I think as Pinkey has never come into contact with other dogs at all until Rose arrived on the scene

this may have some thing to do with this problem ..? at the moment Pinkey seems not to want to

be near or play with Rose, and may be Pinkey has got so fed up with Rose jumping on her back all

be it in Play , that now she just wants to be left alone.

As for one being inferior at the moment it looks as if they both won't give in Rose upsets Pinkey ,

Pinkey starts a fight with Rose ( its never Rose who starts a fight ) and they end up snapping

at each other and Rose all ways seems to eventually back of , but then it starts again some time

later , at the moment they both are sleeping in separate boxes.

I'm still not sure about the best thing to do when they start fighting I don't want this

to become a life long battle between them both .

Thanks TL

[Nienke]

Hhhmmmmm, in general:

In the dog's mind: Older dog and the one who was there first is higher rank. Puppy is lower rank.

What happens all too often in reality: puppy is so cute, gets loads of attention, cuddles and kisses, much more than the older dog (attention is a basic need, and it is a right of a higher rank to claim these needs). Puppy is taken on the lap, on the chair, on the bed, in other words on high places (is the right of a higher rank). Puppy is puppy, so needs to eat several meals a day in small amounts, thus eats before higher rank (eating before is the right of a higher rank). And puppy is puppy, so wants to play. If it is quite a confdent puppy it an be quite persistent in play, licking mouthes, pushing, jumping on top of the older dog. Older dog will tolerate this till a certain extent, then starts ignoring. If this doesn't work it will walk away. If puppy doesn't get the point, then often growling, stiffening and staring following. But then, if stupid puppy still doesn't get the point snapping and biting follows. (ignoring and correcting is the right of a higher rank). However, owner gets upset at the 'aggression' of the older dog and tells it off while 'protecting' puppy.

By now, puppy has gained so many privileges that it feels strong and 'protected' by the owner. If then, the older dog tells the pup off again, it will stand its case and fight back. Leaving a totally upset owner who has no clue of how this could have happened.

That things really can get out of order, some customers of mine just recently experienced with their 7 months old Golden retriever that took the challenge with their 8 year old poodle: bit it in the neck and shook it. Poodle didn't survive .

From a few posts it is not ossible if the abovementioned scenario is similar to what has happened and is happening at Thailife's house.

I do know that initially Pinkey was quite anxious with the new-comer. And I got the impression that Rose is quite a confident puppy, that doesn't take no for an answer easily. However, it should be Pinkey that has to be 'protected' from Rose, and when Rose is too boisterous in her play, SHE needs to be corrected or given a time-out in her cage, pen or in a separate room away from everybody. If Rose start screaming, when seperated then just let her scream and ONLY let her out/loose when she is quiet. IF Rose has been a little spoiled than this screaming can take up to an hour or more. (got a dog in not too long ago, and he screamed 1 1/2 hour in a row, then stopped. His owner warned me for his excessive barking, especially in the night. I didn't have much of a problem with him. But then, have a golden in now who is prone to become a golden steak <gggrrrrrrrrrr> hard-headed as_shole)

If I recall well than Rose isn't much older than 4 months, meaning she is still a young puppy and thus should be lower rank. Therefore, it should be Pinkey who is allowed to sleep in the bedroom, on the bed, taken on the lap on a regular basis, receives more cuddles than Rose etc etc. Rose is allowed to sleep in the bedroom as well, but only if she is restricted to a cage, while Pinkey is allowed loose.

If Pinkey wants to be left alone, then the owners should tell Rose off or seperate her.

Still, it is very important to rule out if there is a physical under-lying problem to Pinkey's lethargy, her sleeping more than normal, the bile-vomitting and her desire to be left alone.

Nienke

[Nienke]

I think as Pinkey has never come into contact with other dogs at all until Rose arrived on the scene

this may have some thing to do with this problem ..? at the moment Pinkey seems not to want to

be near or play with Rose, and may be Pinkey has got so fed up with Rose jumping on her back all

be it in Play ,

Rose jumping on Pinkey's back (is domination) ... sure enough Pinkey will get fed up with that.

... that now she just wants to be left alone. As for one being inferior at the moment it looks as if they both won't give in Rose upsets Pinkey ,

It sounds that Rose does not show respect to Pinkey. Pinkey wants to be left alone, but Rose doesn't 'listen'.

Pinkey starts a fight with Rose ( its never Rose who starts a fight )

It may be Pinkey who finally will growl, snap and bite, but I bet it is Rose who start the whole thing by not respecting Pinkey's wish to be left alone, or by being persistent in jumping on Pinkey's back, being pushy in play etc.

and they end up snapping at each other and Rose all ways seems to eventually back of , but then it starts again some time later , at the moment they both are sleeping in separate boxes.

Sounds that Rose has started to take the challenge, but by finally backing off she still respect Pinkey as being higher rank. Meaning that is high time, to tell Rose waht her place is in the hierarchy, and that's the lowest!

Nonetheless, though, it is very imprtant to observe how the two dogs interact while Rose is growing up, as it is possible that a change of hierarchy will take place by the time Rose enters her puberties. This may even involve some serious quarrels.

Nienke

[ThaiLife]

Hi Nienke ...

Well we took Pinkey to the new vet's and spent the whole day there

while the vet took her temperature, blood sample and 4 xrays

The blood sample was sent to a local blood analyst center

and we had the report back in the afternoon I did ask for a SNAP

tsst to be done but it seemed as if the Vet did not understand

my request .

The findings are ...

Full Blood test

All normal except a higher than normal stomach acid content

Test for Parasites ......... None found

T4 Thyroid hormone ....... Normal

Blood Sugar Content ...... Normal

Body temperature............. Normal

Xray results ... First set taken showed a slightly enlarged heart and a slight problem

with a back leg joint .

Second set taken after drinking bearium meal , one small ulcer shown

and signs of acid damage to the stomach wall.

The Vet’s recommended action

Excess stomach acid and ulcer to be treated with an Anti Acid drug ( Cimetidine )

Back leg joint problem to be treated with high potency calcium tablets ( Hoffmann Janssen Ideal-Cal )

Slightly enlarged heart ....... to be further monitored but in the vets opinion the slight enlargement

of the heart may be a dog breed type thing

A daily does of vitamin liquid to be given.

In the vets opinion the Vomiting Yellow fluid may be caused by the excess stomach acid

and also may be being made worse by the current '' battle '' going on between Pinkey and Rose

causing a stressful situation to Pinkey

So now we are going to administer the Cimetrdine , calcium , and vitimin supplement

daily to Pinkey , when we arrived home the '' battle '' started again with Pinkey stalking Rose

in what seems to be a gesture of Pinkey trying to control Rose with snapping and barking

as I write this they both are walking around the room touching side by side with Pinkey watching Rose

and Pinkey sort of bumping into Rose and Rose seems to want to react back then Pinkey

will then snarl and snap back at Rose.

So we are trying to limit their contact and try to control them both in some way , we are not too

sure of the best way to stop Pinkey now stalking Rose and the snapping / biting reaction

it does seem to day as if Rose has reduced the trying to jump on Pinkeys back thing and Rose

may be getting the message that Pinkey is the ''Pack Leader '' but we are also not sure

how long this battle will go on and hopefully if they both accept each other.

Thanks TL

[Nienke]

Hi Thailife,

Well that's a relieve that you know now what's wrong with Pinkey and you can treat her. Too bad that the vet didn't know what the SNAP test is.

As for the two ladies, you can try the following:

Reduce attention you and your wife give to Rose considerable, meaning ignore her much more.

Increase the attention for Pinkey.

When Rose is pushing, jumping up, or when in any other way tension goes up between the two tell Rose firmly OFF, while ignoring Pinkey. If she refuses to listen, give her a time-out. But while doing so, do not talk to her or keep on scolding her. Just pick her up and put her in her pen/crate/another room.

Feed Pinkey first and let Rose wait. Have both sit-stay for their food. They can only start eating AFTER you have given them permission by saying OK/EAT or any other command. If they don't listen DON'T FEED.

Pick up obedience training with both of them and increase your and your wife's status as highest rank, making sure they both obey you and your wife well.

Well, try this first and look how it goes. If you feel lost here or there, feel free to PM me or give an update on the forum.

Nienke

[KKK]

Behavioral issues that need to be addressed are most likely yours.

Something we learned the hard way is that dogs have a hierarchy. If you pet the puppy first, give it food first, pay it more attention then you are telling the older dog that he is at the bottom of the hierarchy and the puppy above. This is a sure fire way to have problems. I learned to give the dominant dog (and in this case it should be the first and older dog) attention first, food first.

It doesn't address the health issues but could go a long way towards making your dog feel that it is back in its rightful place.

Actually the leader of the pack should be the human owner. Sounds to me like the puppy has established itself as the leader. Treat your dogs equally making sure they understand "you're the boss"