Private Dancer

[siamesekitty]

I'd like to read that article.. anyone have a link or file?

[Prakanong]

I'd like to read that article.. anyone have a link or file?

I can not seem to find a copy now - somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to remember a Stephen Leather interview with Stickman where he says he has it removed from web postings for copywrite reasons

It would seem for some reason Stephen Leather does not want the "Non-fiction" work read - it might be that he was obviously naive about a scene back then I have heard from his own mouth is very cynical about now.

There used to be a copy on a PI or Pattaya website but google searches find nothing.

[siamesekitty]

no prob, thanks for looking :-)

[meom]

The thing that I was and still am curious about, and the thing that got my interest about Private Dancer, is "what's in the mind of girls (or guys) involved in the prostitution"? I'm still not sure.

Money I guess. Btw not all girls you see in gogo's are prostitutes. Some only dance and accept drinks but don't take it any further.

[britmaveric]

The thing that I was and still am curious about, and the thing that got my interest about Private Dancer, is "what's in the mind of girls (or guys) involved in the prostitution"? I'm still not sure.

Money I guess. Btw not all girls you see in gogo's are prostitutes. Some only dance and accept drinks but don't take it any further.

Just means they charge more or don't want to go with the lad who is pursuing them.

[Prakanong]

The thing that I was and still am curious about, and the thing that got my interest about Private Dancer, is "what's in the mind of girls (or guys) involved in the prostitution"? I'm still not sure.

Money I guess. Btw not all girls you see in gogo's are prostitutes. Some only dance and accept drinks but don't take it any further.

Just means they charge more or don't want to go with the lad who is pursuing them.

Exactly - some might be very picky and only go where the risk/reward calculation done with regard to their sponsor(s) and the amount on offer that night is too much for them to refuse but go they do.

[meom]

The thing that I was and still am curious about, and the thing that got my interest about Private Dancer, is "what's in the mind of girls (or guys) involved in the prostitution"? I'm still not sure.

Money I guess. Btw not all girls you see in gogo's are prostitutes. Some only dance and accept drinks but don't take it any further.

Just means they charge more or don't want to go with the lad who is pursuing them.

You're probably right although stickman once mentioned that some Pattaya gogo dancers were raking in 30-40thou a month dancing alone and didn't bother about going down anymore.

Stickman being the expert I don't dispute that

[Prakanong]

The thing that I was and still am curious about, and the thing that got my interest about Private Dancer, is "what's in the mind of girls (or guys) involved in the prostitution"? I'm still not sure.

Money I guess. Btw not all girls you see in gogo's are prostitutes. Some only dance and accept drinks but don't take it any further.

Just means they charge more or don't want to go with the lad who is pursuing them.

You're probably right although stickman once mentioned that some Pattaya gogo dancers were raking in 30-40thou a month dancing alone and didn't bother about going down anymore.

Stickman being the expert I don't dispute that

"didn't bother about going down anymore."

Did you mean to say that? ;-))

I have been told about girls who earned 20k as show girls, had multiple sponsors etc and told by their manager they did not go with guy's.

Then seen them with a customer, pointed this out to owner / manager and jokingly commented to be met with, "Its business" or "He is a good customer" read spends big time.

OK - there may be one or two who would absolutely never go with a customer now they earn good and have sponsors but these are very, very rare indeed - 20 girls out of 30,000 working oin the western scene in Bangkok or Pattaya would be my very wild guess picked out of the blue.

[Mobi]

The thing that I was and still am curious about, and the thing that got my interest about Private Dancer, is "what's in the mind of girls (or guys) involved in the prostitution"? I'm still not sure.

Money I guess. Btw not all girls you see in gogo's are prostitutes. Some only dance and accept drinks but don't take it any further.

Just means they charge more or don't want to go with the lad who is pursuing them.

You're probably right although stickman once mentioned that some Pattaya gogo dancers were raking in 30-40thou a month dancing alone and didn't bother about going down anymore.

Stickman being the expert I don't dispute that

At the 'top end' of the market - be it gogo bars or cocktail lounges - there are women who make enough money off drinks not to have to sleep around. Places like the Office Bar or Christies in Soi 33, Sukhumvit have girls who have been there for years and never go out as they make very good money just by drinking and extracting generous tips from the punters. Just about all these girls have husbands or boyfriends.

But many, who don't appear to be prostituting themselves, know their worth and are simply waiting for the right fish

However, these kind of girls are few and far bewteen in places like Cowboy, Nana Plaza and most of the bars in Pattaya. A vast majority of them rely on prostitution to pay the bills, and as the book relates, are required to have a minimum number of bar fines a month to stay on the payroll..

[Prakanong]

The thing that I was and still am curious about, and the thing that got my interest about Private Dancer, is "what's in the mind of girls (or guys) involved in the prostitution"? I'm still not sure.

Money I guess. Btw not all girls you see in gogo's are prostitutes. Some only dance and accept drinks but don't take it any further.

Just means they charge more or don't want to go with the lad who is pursuing them.

You're probably right although stickman once mentioned that some Pattaya gogo dancers were raking in 30-40thou a month dancing alone and didn't bother about going down anymore.

Stickman being the expert I don't dispute that

At the 'top end' of the market - be it gogo bars or cocktail lounges - there are women who make enough money off drinks not to have to sleep around. Places like the Office Bar or Christies in Soi 33, Sukhumvit have girls who have been there for years and never go out as they make very good money just by drinking and extracting generous tips from the punters. Just about all these girls have husbands or boyfriends.

But many, who don't appear to be prostituting themselves, know their worth and are simply waiting for the right fish

However, these kind of girls are few and far bewteen in places like Cowboy, Nana Plaza and most of the bars in Pattaya. A vast majority of them rely on prostitution to pay the bills, and as the book relates, are required to have a minimum number of bar fines a month to stay on the payroll..

Good point - I completely forgot about the minimum "Off's" requirement most if not all bar's have.

Outside of showgirls its usually enough to cover monthly salary so their is not cost to the bar for girls salary's?

Edited January 6, 2008 by Prakanong

[kat]

I read "Private Dancer" about a year or so ago, after having heard about it for so long. As the comments I'd heard about it ranged from "absolutely true" to "scandalous" to whatever, I started reading it with hope that it would provide some eye-opening/entertaining/informative insight.

It was none of the above. I was disappointed by the quality of the writing (I'm an avid reader and have been reading classic English literature since 3rd grade) and basically by the whole story. The plot seemed all mixed up and scenes jumped around.. dunno, just didn't seem like a "real book", felt rather amateurish. (Not that I am capable of writing quality literature myself.)

Ok, besides the quality of the writing itself, the perspective of the Thai bar girl scene seems grossly exaggerated. I'm not a bar girl myself so I don't profess to know all about the industry, but it seems that at least the girl(s) involved would have been a bit more "smooth" (the Thai word is "nien"/"เนียน") at whatever they were up to. A lot of things just seemed too dam_n obvious for me to believe that anyone, whether Thai or farang, would fall for.

If you're looking for tips on how the vast majority of Thai women behave, don't look for it in "Private Dancer". And even if you ARE interested in how bar girls behave, and their ways of scamming you, I think this book might not help that much either. I'm sure a lot of them are a lot smarter than the woman in the book, and will probably use less obvious methods.

Overall I thought it was an interesting read, and had its good points, but the book is not a work of literature and wasn't intended to be read like one. So, we agree on that point. Where I disagree based on my own experience, is with your comment that the scams seemed too "simple." I think there are all kinds of scams in Thailand, from the simple to the very deceptive, but I was incredulous at how obvious and simple many attempts were, and this was outside of the sex industry! If this is possible by educated and middle-class folks in Thailand, I have no doubt that there is an abundance of simple and obvious scams on the street level as well. I'm sure that the street and bar level contingent hone their skills a lot more, but that's difficult to say because even daylight business in Thailand has its regular scammers. The difference in the relationship and sex industry is that more people on the receiving end are not thinking with their brains, so the scams are more apt to be successful, unless they are all and out fraudulent, as in fake land titles and business deals. Even law enforcement and the judiciary in Thailand is obvious in its corruption.

*spelling

Edited January 6, 2008 by kat

[Citra]

I never read the book and have zero intention to read it.

A lot of the time the girls do not have to be or act a lot smarter - the guy already beleives what he does so it does not take much for the girl to reinforce that.

The White Knight sysndrome is truly alive and well also and even for a time the girl might even think she is being "Saved" too.

Exactly. I have this feeling that the book will set or reinforce a stereotype whereby the girls are cunning and scheming, where in fact often all it takes is to be natural and truthful and money will flow to them just by the force of gravity alone. And frankly, a lot of the men can afford it, so I'd say let them; more money for the girl who needs it, and into the Thai economy.

I'm pretty much on the side of the girls on this one, though, as has been mentioned, there really is not a single stereotype. Did anyone catch the recent Channel 4 docutainment vid? It's available on Youtube as well. At least it's recent and gives a fairly good image for people somewhat familiar with Thailand. For those who aren't I wonder if those people wouldn't be left with the feeling that there's no other career path in the entire North East than prostitution.. But anyway, there's far worse stuff out there, go view it; it's probably a quicker and better overview than a fictional Steven Leather novel.

[beginner]

I never read the book and have zero intention to read it.

Well OK. I think I understand that for some reason you have some sort of hostility to it. But don't let that slight impediment stop you having an opinion on its contents.

Exactly. I have this feeling that the book will set or reinforce a stereotype whereby the girls are cunning and scheming,

How would you know if your only knowledge of the book is through the opinions of others who may have axes to grind.

Exactly. I have this feeling that the book will set or reinforce a stereotype whereby the girls are cunning and scheming, where in fact often all it takes is to be natural and truthful and money will flow to them just by the force of gravity alone

Natural and truthful. What about 'the noble lie' ie face saving. Truthful?? Are you serious? Have you also not read Thailand Fever?

But anyway, there's far worse stuff out there, go view it; it's probably a quicker and better overview than a fictional Steven Leather novel.

'its probably'

Again. How would you know?

Thanks for the tip. I have taken your advice.

The Brit documentary is an overview but the book gets down to the nitty gritty of how some ladies like Fon (with UK sponsor) actually work their falangs.

I still think its a book worth the effort of reading. I was once persauded to read Pride and Prejudice against my better judgment. Afterwards I was very happy that I did. It opened my eyes in many ways. Everyone on this thread agrees that Private Dancer is not a great literary novel but most people who read it seem to get something out of it and tend to read it to the end.

[Jai Dee]

Thailand Fever by Chris Pirazzi and Vitida Vasant (MSc Cultural Anthropology)

I'd recommend that everyone considering a mixed Thai-farang relationship read this publication.

Cultural mannerisms and expectations from both sides of the coin are well explained in this book.

[siamesekitty]

I have the book. Bought it as I am always curious regarding differences in cultures and peoples' perspectives. I've lived in both Thailand & the US, so have a fair bit of understanding of both sides.

The book does explain some fundamental differences in the way of thinking, such as differences I've tried to explain to friends both Thai and Western alike before. Also pointed out some ways of thinking I'd always taken for granted (having been borne and raised by conservative Thai parents)

Edited January 7, 2008 by siamesekitty

[kat]

Well, it's very good that you are open and curious, and have seen both sides.

* It's also great that you are here discussing it with us.

Edited January 7, 2008 by kat

[Girlaboutglobe]

I agree Kat, it IS nice when someone like SiameseKitty with a first hand perspective will take a whack. A lot of the time foreigners (including myself) talk about and try to understand Thai culture and differences, but in truth it's simply speculation based on what we've seen or experienced and it's probably not accurate very often.

SiameseKitty, if you don't mind and have a moment to spare, what do you think the biggest fundamental differences that you hinted at are? I know that's a big question, but any insight at all would be quite illuminating! I'd love to sit down and have a true heart to heart with a Thai girl and really get her perspective, but ettiquette and communication seem to make it difficult.

PS Thanks for the "further reading" tip JaiDee, I'll keep an eye out for it. Reckon Asiabooks would have a copy?

[Citra]

I never read the book and have zero intention to read it.

Well OK. I think I understand that for some reason you have some sort of hostility to it. But don't let that slight impediment stop you having an opinion on its contents.

Actually it's more a general aversion to reading those type of book: I like to gather my facts in real life and not based on what's essentially a work of fiction, never mind if it's based on a story that's perceived true by the author.

I've probabaly spent a longer time in Thailand than Steven Leather, speak better Thai than Steven Leather, and have spoken to more Thais including Sex Workers than Steven Leather, so what's left is a work of fiction, to be read for enjoyment. Those books cannot, do not, and are not intended to paint any kind of comprehensive picture of 'the way things are'. Again, I'm not saying the author intended it as such, but I do note that many people here DO tout it as offering at least a typical picture.

Exactly. I have this feeling that the book will set or reinforce a stereotype whereby the girls are cunning and scheming,

How would you know if your only knowledge of the book is through the opinions of others who may have axes to grind.

Well, that comes from trusting you when you say "the book gets down to the nitty gritty of how some ladies like Fon (with UK sponsor) actually work their falangs." That sounds like scheming to me.

Natural and truthful. What about 'the noble lie' ie face saving. Truthful?? Are you serious? Have you also not read Thailand Fever?

I haven't. I looked it up on the book's website though which includes the first chapter and it seems like a reasonable effort. I'm not however in the target audience for the book, which is, apparently: " You've met the perfect Thai woman. You're dizzy with joy as her exotic world swirls around you. You've heard so many horror stories, but your heart tells you that she's for real. You want to understand her mysterious ways, and you wish she could understand yours. Now, there's help. Thailand Fever is an astonishing, one-of-a-kind, Thai–-English bilingual exposé of the cultural secrets that are the key to a smooth Thai–Western relationship.

I still think its a book worth the effort of reading. I was once persauded to read Pride and Prejudice against my better judgment.

Ok, fair enough. I believe a friend of mine owns a copy, I may borrow it from him and start reading it, if only so I can better reply to people claiming the book is the end-all to any relationship with any Thai woman, or even any Thai bar girl.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Citra

[siamesekitty]

"Thailand Fever" is not perfect, and certainly not an end-all, though it explains "some fundamental differences".

[Jai Dee]

I haven't. I looked it up on the book's website though which includes the first chapter and it seems like a reasonable effort. I'm not however in the target audience for the book, which is, apparently: " You've met the perfect Thai woman. You're dizzy with joy as her exotic world swirls around you. You've heard so many horror stories, but your heart tells you that she's for real. You want to understand her mysterious ways, and you wish she could understand yours. Now, there's help. Thailand Fever is an astonishing, one-of-a-kind, Thai–-English bilingual exposé of the cultural secrets that are the key to a smooth Thai–Western relationship.

I think you'll find that the book's promotional blurb is not truly indicative of it's content... it is designed to sell to a particular market only.

Give it a try... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

And yes, I think Asiabooks or Bookazine would carry copies or certainly know how to obtain one.

[Jai Dee]

"Thailand Fever" is not perfect, and certainly not an end-all, though it explains "some fundamental differences".

Exactly.

[kat]

I agree Kat, it IS nice when someone like SiameseKitty with a first hand perspective will take a whack. A lot of the time foreigners (including myself) talk about and try to understand Thai culture and differences, but in truth it's simply speculation based on what we've seen or experienced and it's probably not accurate very often.

SiameseKitty, if you don't mind and have a moment to spare, what do you think the biggest fundamental differences that you hinted at are? I know that's a big question, but any insight at all would be quite illuminating! I'd love to sit down and have a true heart to heart with a Thai girl and really get her perspective, but ettiquette and communication seem to make it difficult.

PS Thanks for the "further reading" tip JaiDee, I'll keep an eye out for it. Reckon Asiabooks would have a copy?

I think perspective is just that, but do not confuse it with "firsthand experience" *of the sex market simply because someone is Thai.

*added edit

Edited January 7, 2008 by kat

[siamesekitty]

LOL.. I certainly DO NOT have first hand perspective of the sex market

[Prakanong]

"Those books cannot, do not, and are not intended to paint any kind of comprehensive picture of 'the way things are'. Again, I'm not saying the author intended it as such, but I do note that many people here DO tout it as offering at least a typical picture."

You have hit the nail on the head - the book is NOT intended as a comprehensive picture no matter how much people tout it as such - I am sure I have heard it from Stephen Leather himself and I doubt he would claim it to b - it a work of fiction, it might be based on one experience but anecdotes do not make data.

Think it says a lot more about certain farangs in thailand if you know some of the characters the book was based on . Fat Dave ex of Jools is Big Ron or whatever and he is pretty much nailed as his whole attitude and what he used to say.

I do know of at least 3 other characters in the book that have some basis in guy's who drank in Jools Bar (Fatso's) around 10 years ago.

If you take a look at the literature of books that do claim to offer insight into the industry ie the non-fiction works you do get a different picture

Travels in the Skin Trade by Jeremy Seabrook the social anthropologis

Patpong Sisters by Cleo Odzer

Sex Slaves - traficking of women in Asia by Louise Brown

The Thrid Sex by Richard Totman - not exactly about the same thing but does give some insight

etc

[beginner]

I never read the book and have zero intention to read it.

Well OK. I think I understand that for some reason you have some sort of hostility to it. But don't let that slight impediment stop you having an opinion on its contents.

Actually it's more a general aversion to reading those type of book: I like to gather my facts in real life and not based on what's essentially a work of fiction, never mind if it's based on a story that's perceived true by the author.

I've probabaly spent a longer time in Thailand than Steven Leather, speak better Thai than Steven Leather, and have spoken to more Thais including Sex Workers than Steven Leather, so what's left is a work of fiction, to be read for enjoyment. Those books cannot, do not, and are not intended to paint any kind of comprehensive picture of 'the way things are'. Again, I'm not saying the author intended it as such, but I do note that many people here DO tout it as offering at least a typical picture.

Exactly. I have this feeling that the book will set or reinforce a stereotype whereby the girls are cunning and scheming,

How would you know if your only knowledge of the book is through the opinions of others who may have axes to grind.

Well, that comes from trusting you when you say "the book gets down to the nitty gritty of how some ladies like Fon (with UK sponsor) actually work their falangs." That sounds like scheming to me.

Natural and truthful. What about 'the noble lie' ie face saving. Truthful?? Are you serious? Have you also not read Thailand Fever?

I haven't. I looked it up on the book's website though which includes the first chapter and it seems like a reasonable effort. I'm not however in the target audience for the book, which is, apparently: " You've met the perfect Thai woman. You're dizzy with joy as her exotic world swirls around you. You've heard so many horror stories, but your heart tells you that she's for real. You want to understand her mysterious ways, and you wish she could understand yours. Now, there's help. Thailand Fever is an astonishing, one-of-a-kind, Thai–-English bilingual exposé of the cultural secrets that are the key to a smooth Thai–Western relationship.

I still think its a book worth the effort of reading. I was once persauded to read Pride and Prejudice against my better judgment.

Ok, fair enough. I believe a friend of mine owns a copy, I may borrow it from him and start reading it, if only so I can better reply to people claiming the book is the end-all to any relationship with any Thai woman, or even any Thai bar girl.

Thats a very credible and fair minded response on your part. I bow to your extensive experience and knowledge. We must compare notes after you have whizzed through Stephen's rather unlikely and lumpy prose.

I have seen the basic story repeated many times here in Pattaya. Someone I know is picking up the financial pieces of an encounter with a Thai teelac right now. His USA house sold, his savings gone. His heart broken. His teelac now repeating her performance on another innocent falang. How did it happen despite all his experience in Asia? he is asking himself.

That's why many people suggest Private Dancer is a good primer to bar culture.

On Thailand Fever. As you know its wriiten in both english and Thai. English on one side and Thai on the other. The sections on western concepts of Privacy and independence have usually amazed my Thai partners. The sections on Thai mother-daughter relations amazed me.

I have often wondered whether the translation is actually accurate. Maybe you could read it in Thai and appreciate any subtle differences.

Your extract from the website does sound like it is targeted at men but then that is the obvious largest target market. The subtitle on the cover is more general...Thailand Fever....A road map for Thai-Western relationships.

[siamesekitty]

I agree Kat, it IS nice when someone like SiameseKitty with a first hand perspective will take a whack. A lot of the time foreigners (including myself) talk about and try to understand Thai culture and differences, but in truth it's simply speculation based on what we've seen or experienced and it's probably not accurate very often.

SiameseKitty, if you don't mind and have a moment to spare, what do you think the biggest fundamental differences that you hinted at are? I know that's a big question, but any insight at all would be quite illuminating! I'd love to sit down and have a true heart to heart with a Thai girl and really get her perspective, but ettiquette and communication seem to make it difficult.

PS Thanks for the "further reading" tip JaiDee, I'll keep an eye out for it. Reckon Asiabooks would have a copy?

One obvious different perspective (which I futilely tried to explain to an American guy who I had flirted with/dated very briefly before), was regarding living with parents, as well as providing and receiving support (financial or otherwise) from them. I'm not sure if this is from the book or purely off the top of my head:

To a Westerner:

Aw, those Thais are such babies! They're 20/30/40 and still staying with their parents! Why don't they get an apartment - and life - of their own??

To a Thai son/daughter:

more independent: dam_n! I wish could move out and stay on my own, but that would be so ungrateful! They raised me from when I was a baby and are expecting on me to keep them company in their old age. I can't just leave and desert them like that!

more family-oriented: I love my parents so much, they have raised me from when I was a baby and have shown so much love for me. I want to spend as much time with them as I can and repay their kindness before they leave this world. Also, it's so happy and warm when we're together, I love my family!

To a Thai mother/father:

- I'm so happy children haven't deserted me. They're such good sons/daughters!

Edited January 7, 2008 by siamesekitty

[kat]

Nice.

[Citra]

Yeah, that's a good overview.

I think many foreigners do accept a large degree of being a family together though, especially those with more Thai experience under their belts.

Quite often also the Thai partner wouldn't actually want his/her mum living in the exact same building, so I'd say usually there's plenty of room for compromise that would leave the Thai parents feel like they're not being deserted, and still gives the foreigner and his spouse a good deal of privacy, IN ADDITION to having family around to help out with many things, most notably when having children. In fact I think grandparents are completely essential to anyone contemplating having kids in Thailand.

Of course, some degree of independence from parents is very healthy in a relationship. If a person is completely dominated by their parents then that's not healthy for a marriage or relationship, and I think most modern Thai women and men would agree to that as well.

And then all of this is framed / constrained by the reality of things: There's not much in the way of retirement homes, not much in the way of pensions or anything else in terms of benefits or activities for the elderly.. Them having a happy and fulfilling life in retirement completely depends on their kids (unless parents are wealthy).

And I think if a foreigner chooses to live in Thailand then (s)he should accept and embrace the basic realities and constraints that come with it; there's the quality of life, the value for money, the low or non-existing taxes, but the flip-side of that is that 'care' is still a family matter in Thailand, not a government matter, and when joining a family there's that added bit of responsibility.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Citra

[fletchsmile]

Thailand Fever by Chris Pirazzi and Vitida Vasant (MSc Cultural Anthropology)

I'd recommend that everyone considering a mixed Thai-farang relationship read this publication.

Cultural mannerisms and expectations from both sides of the coin are well explained in this book.

"Thailand Fever" is not perfect, and certainly not an end-all, though it explains "some fundamental differences".

Exactly.

Not sure why my post on Thailand Fever got deleted. I thought the book was "very poor", and was thoroughly disappointed in it. The Thai lady author seemed to have little understanding of western society, or that it was indeed much more diverse than she thought. The western guy co-author seemed disinterested at best. The female author's definitions of "fairness, equality" etc in western society were again poor at best. Her idea of "western fairness" was getting back what you gave, so it all balances out! I also recall comments along the lines of "western society encourages children to be rebelious, bad behaviour and bad manners are fine, as long as the child is asserting its independence." etc The lack of accuracy on the western interpretations in turn undermines the credibility of any Thai society comments. How could anyone take seriously an analysis of Thai society, knowing that the analysis of western society was so poor? Neither I nor my wife could relate to much of the picture painted of "western society". My wife commented that the western society referred to didn't seem like my family life, or that of my brother's family/my parents.

In summary I'd say Thailand Fever was a waste of money. Perhaps a superficial understanding of some differences for novices, but hardly a book for seasoned Thai hands, and many people in real relationships. I think someone had a good idea (dual language explanation of relationships), and decided to try and make money out of it. The real quality and content got left behind.

Private Dancer, while not exactly a great book, is at least a reasonable read. I would add that my wife seemed to enjoy it more than me. A Thai female friend was reading it and told her it was good, so my wife wanted to get a copy. She in turn passed a copy onto another Thai female friend. In contrast neither of us passed on Thailand Fever to anyone...

Edited January 8, 2008 by fletchsmile

[Patsycat]

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And do the shimmy again....