Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[Claymore]

The article quoted above offers nothing beyond a summary of the writer's opinions. He even makes statements about the legal sentencing of the case before the investigation has been concluded. So, he is no different from the low-grade articles or gossiping foreigners of which he complains, except that he apparently makes a living off of it.

Believe me Kat. This guy does not make a living out of this sort of stuff!

[Claymore]

The article quoted above offers nothing beyond a summary of the writer's opinions. He even makes statements about the legal sentencing of the case before the investigation has been concluded. So, he is no different from the low-grade articles or gossiping foreigners of which he complains, except that he apparently makes a living off of it.

Believe me Kat. This guy does not make a living out of this sort of stuff!

Perhaps Mr. Cleary can answer the points put to him and tell us whether its okay for the foreign press to report on the recent scandals in the Thai police involving kidnappings and extortion or do they need to go to him for permission lest their stories sound exaggerated.

[kat]

BTW Carly is out of the hospital. She was seen two nights ago drinking at Roots Rock Reggae in Chiang Mai with a handful of Thai and farang friends.

she must be inconsolable with grief for her murdered boyfriend

If the report is true (and I stress IF it is true), then she obviously is not in great fear of her life in Thailand.

Non sequitur here. She is in Chiang Mai not Pai. Obviously some folks would like to see this girl on her death bed. The hospital is no safer than a Reggae disco btw. People knew where she was. Now they have to rely on bloggers to tell them. These reports will invariably be late and inaccurate.

If u liked Reggae music and were fit enough to do wouldn't you. Personally I can leave it, with the exception of a couple of Bob Marley numbers

Sorry, no non sequitar here at all. I realize that she is in Chiang Mai. But if you believe the theories of many posters, she is not safe any where in Thailand...the police will gun her down on sight. So I'm not buying your shallow explanation. If you feel endangered, you will get out of the country ASAP. So why is she still here?

Perhaps she needs to stay around for a reason that is not yet clear to us. It has been almost a month since this incident happened, and she was almost killed. She probably needs a drink. I have known people to go out for drinks right after a funeral. It doesn't mean that they are grieving any less, because real grief doesn't necessarily appear in cinematographic moments for an audience.

[Arkady]

What I object to in the Cleary "parachute" article, apart from its rather wearisome prose and lack of concrete information, was the attempt to plant the suggestion that, based on hearsay reports of her prior behavior in Pai, Carly must have started the physical confrontation with Uthai and is therefore responsible for the tragic events that unfolded. Cleary even makes so bold as to suggest that Leo's killing might have been manslaughter with the implication that the shooting of Carly must have been "attempted manslaughter". We don't know how the struggle started and, even if Carly struck a policeman on an earlier occasion, that doesn't prove that she hit Uthai. Even if she did hit Uthai, it is highly unlikely that he could have believed his life was threatened so as to justify escalating the situation dangerously by pulling out his gun. What we do know for sure is that Uthai claimed to have fired three shots accidentally, all of which hit the victims in vital regions of their bodies and that he fled the scene of the crime. Perhaps the addition of these facts would have made the part of the article on the Pai shootings more balanced.

[Claymore]

What I object to in the Cleary "parachute" article, apart from its rather wearisome prose and lack of concrete information, was the attempt to plant the suggestion that, based on hearsay reports of her prior behavior in Pai, Carly must have started the physical confrontation with Uthai and is therefore responsible for the tragic events that unfolded. Cleary even makes so bold as to suggest that Leo's killing might have been manslaughter with the implication that the shooting of Carly must have been "attempted manslaughter". We don't know how the struggle started and, even if Carly struck a policeman on an earlier occasion, that doesn't prove that she hit Uthai. Even if she did hit Uthai, it is highly unlikely that he could have believed his life was threatened so as to justify escalating the situation dangerously by pulling out his gun. What we do know for sure is that Uthai claimed to have fired three shots accidentally, all of which hit the victims in vital regions of their bodies and that he fled the scene of the crime. Perhaps the addition of these facts would have made the part of the article on the Pai shootings more balanced.

Spot on again and coached in much more moderate tones. I'm off for Chinese New Year. See u when I get back

[Khun ?]

Middle of drugland, (golden triangle) being attacked by a motley bunch with war paint on, not sure I would of had any

ammo left if I had done the shooting. That was a very hard core looking group of drugged out participants if you

consider looks and previous knowledge of the bunch into account.

Is Claymore the Tom guy writing about it from China, seems he does not want to give credit to someone ( sabaijai)

that is on the ground reporting facts, and not just anyone who can get on the phone for a third or forth hand witness

like Claymore seems to use for his bias!

[kat]

That was a very hard core looking group of drugged out participants if you

consider looks and previous knowledge of the bunch into account.

There has never been any mention that they have been on drugs, and Carly was cleared of a prior drug test.

[Johpa]

Middle of drugland, (golden triangle) being attacked by a motley bunch with war paint on,...

I really don't consider Pai to be in the middle of the once imagined Golden Triangle in the same way that one might have once described Fang, Wiang Heng, or the region northwest of Chiang Rai. It is more of an island of tolerance, akin to Koh Samui, where the Thais allowed a certain degree of drug usage as long as it stayed an isolated western tourist ghetto and the proper people were paid off. And just as Samui developed and the island of tolerance was moved a bit further away to Koh Phangan, so too will the, how shall we say, Rasta tolerance in Pai be slowly pushed elsewhere as Pai develops its tourist potential.

[DamianMavis]

Middle of drugland, (golden triangle) being attacked by a motley bunch with war paint on, not sure I would of had any

ammo left if I had done the shooting. That was a very hard core looking group of drugged out participants if you

consider looks and previous knowledge of the bunch into account.

Is Claymore the Tom guy writing about it from China, seems he does not want to give credit to someone ( sabaijai)

that is on the ground reporting facts, and not just anyone who can get on the phone for a third or forth hand witness

like Claymore seems to use for his bias!

Ya you just wrote a bunch of crapola you know nothing about. Hard core drugged out and warpaint? Where do you live sesame street? Leo in all his pics looked like a sweetheart, big bright beaming smile full of life and wonder. Oh hes got long hair so.... must be a bad guy.... probably NOT some artistic musician who probably has never had a physical altercation in his life..... Who is this group that judges people based on thier style? Old farts from the 50's when everyone looked the same or was considered a FREAK? Dang you guys need to get with the times, back home theres a zillion different styles and none of them have to do with being bad people.

Damian

[kash]

Who is this group that judges people based on thier style?

The common people. Anyone who see a picture of the people involved quickly understand what kind of theme they adhere to. And if that doesn't include various substances not very legal in most countries, well - I find it hard they choose that kind of lifestyle in that specific place, as they wasn't tourists who was just "passing through" the town.

Dang you guys need to get with the times, back home theres a zillion different styles and none of them have to do with being bad people.

No need to include the rest of the world for a local case, the thing with perception is that it seldom correlate with the truth, but it really doesn't matter as long as people around here enforce "shoot first - then ask". Nothing wrong with rastahair e.g., but you are naive and on the border to stupidity if you don't think people will judge you and your behavior just because of that hair style, like it or not - that's reality.

Edited February 3, 2008 by kash

[yorkman]

Gawd,

I occasionally chip in on this long and boring topic, to be abused and flamed by non thinking posters (my opinion only, I agree )

At the end of the day, this is 2 kids, who have no local cultural appreciation, who unthinkingly after a few drinks got themselves into a situation they did not forsee.

Put aside long hair, tattoos in unusual places. Every generation has its thing to rebel. Heck I had a pair of white high heel shoes in the 70's. Laugh at that, ohhh there is a confession

The bottom line is that it is two people, who travelled from Canada, and thought they were worldly wise and suddenly found out they were not, in a very violent way.

It's not really news, and is sad for the relatives. But this happens time and time again around the world. It will soon be old news.

[Arkady]

Gawd,

I occasionally chip in on this long and boring topic, to be abused and flamed by non thinking posters (my opinion only, I agree )

At the end of the day, this is 2 kids, who have no local cultural appreciation, who unthinkingly after a few drinks got themselves into a situation they did not forsee.

Put aside long hair, tattoos in unusual places. Every generation has its thing to rebel. Heck I had a pair of white high heel shoes in the 70's. Laugh at that, ohhh there is a confession

The bottom line is that it is two people, who travelled from Canada, and thought they were worldly wise and suddenly found out they were not, in a very violent way.

It's not really news, and is sad for the relatives. But this happens time and time again around the world. It will soon be old news.

We don't know what happened and it remains unclear whether a failure to read the Lonely Planet Guide's section on cultural Does and Don'ts might have contributed to this tragic incident. What we do know is that the policeman pulled his gun and claimed somewhat implausibly to have been afflicted with no less than three accidental discharges in rapid succession and then fled the scene.

[Arkady]

Police are outright rights abusers, seminar told.

The Nation. February 4, 2008.

The police have extensively abused human rights in the past 20 years in 400 documented run-of-the-mill and high-profile cases, the Crime Reporters' Association of Thailand told a seminar yesterday. Published on February 4, 2008

The youngest documented victim is a four-year-old boy. In 1992 he had his bottom boiled in hot water, was kept in a dog cage and forced to eat fresh chilli and boiling soup by a police officer, said Siroj Mingkhwan, chairman of the association.

The unidentified boy was a son of a man who asked his police neighbour to take care of him when he was at work.

The association's records showed that the victims of police brutality ranged from prostitutes, the mentally ill, Buddhist monks and foreign tourists to amputee veterans in wheelchairs.

The cases of abuse were documented between 1988 to the present - with a large number dying, suffering permanent injury or being "disappeared".

Techniques used to frame suspects or innocent people or to impose more serious charges for crimes not committed included torture, humiliation and degradation, physical assault, blackmail, deliberate inaction or wrongful arrest.

In many cases police negotiators urged suicidal people to jump to their death during rescue operations, while rape and sexual molestation were widely inflicted on women or female prisoners.

There are also reports about police forcing inmates in their custody to beat up fellow inmates, in many cases resulting in death. Those responsible for the assaults were then charged with murder.

The rate of abuse cases decreased to 1.9 a month between 1998 and today, compared with two a month in the first 10 years. The decrease was attributed to greater public awareness over human rights and the new constitution.

[Arkady]

Did all of these victims of police brutality suffer from an inadequate knowledge of Thai culture?

[sabaijai]

The more I think about it, the more I see that Carly's history in Pai shows a lack of common sense more than it did any lack of respect for Thai norms. In any culture you don't go around kicking cops, especially in a small town. No apology for the policeman's behaviour, he deserves to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, if found guilty.

[sabaijai]

I've not seen Andrew here in Pai, and we know each other (he used to phone a colleague in CM every so often asking 'Any dead Brits?' and we met on another high-profile murder case in Thailand seven years ago), so am a bit surprised I've not bumped into him at the usual places one would expect to see a reporter on this case. Nor have any of my contacts mentioned seeing him. But Pai is pretty crowded this weekend, he could easily slip around unnoticed.

Just off the phone. He laughed when I read this to him. I think he uses Thai contacts up there. Says the expression was not 'Any dead Brits?' but 'Any Brits in the sh_t!" Says that judging by your Avatar you might be going to pieces. But says at least you will know he was right about Kirsty Jones! Keep on strumming.

Right about Kirsty Jones? I hadn't realised Andrew Drummond had solved the case, or that it had been solved at all. If so, my congratulations to you, or rather, to Mr Drummond.

My informant confirms the refrain was 'Any dead Brits?', alternating with the other phrase.

Enjoy Chinese New Year

[Danielle]

I think it is a dangerous assumption to make that they must have been doing something wrong in order for these events to have taken place. As so many people (on all sides of this discussion) have stated, this sort of thing happens all the time. It would be nice if bad things only happened to bad people. It would certainly be nice if being well-behaved and/or well-researched protected you from harm. Unfortunately, while it certainly can improve your chances of going through life unscathed, it's no guarantee. Not only do these sorts of things happen all the time, they also happen to all sorts of people. I'm not advocating that everyone should walk around Thailand in bullet-proof vests, but I would like to request once again that people try to keep things in perspective, with the awareness that nobody can possibly know the whole context of the situation, and realize that just because something bad happens to someone, doesn't mean they were a bad person.

Maybe [bad behaviour -> bad situation] but [bad situation -\-> bad behaviour].

edit to add more thoughts: I don't know what's up with Khun ? (and I don't mean this as a personal flame) but his posts in this thread have indicated a somewhat inaccurate idea of what facts have come out about this incident... such as a few posts back he mentions Leo being a 6'0 body-builder (which isn't true). I think it showed up in one particularly distorted article.. before any pictures were posted. There are pictures on my facebook of me sitting and standing with Leo and he is no more than a few inches taller than me, and I'm only 5'3". I would just hope that people wouldn't take such misinformed opinions with too much weight.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Danielle

[sabaijai]

I think it is a dangerous assumption to make that they must have been doing something wrong in order for these events to have taken place. As so many people (on all sides of this discussion) have stated, this sort of thing happens all the time. It would be nice if bad things only happened to bad people. It would certainly be nice if being well-behaved and/or well-researched protected you from harm. Unfortunately, while it certainly can improve your chances of going through life unscathed, it's no guarantee. Not only do these sorts of things happen all the time, they also happen to all sorts of people. I'm not advocating that everyone should walk around Thailand in bullet-proof vests, but I would like to request once again that people try to keep things in perspective, with the awareness that nobody can possibly know the whole context of the situation, and realize that just because something bad happens to someone, doesn't mean they were a bad person.

Maybe [bad behaviour -> bad situation] but [bad situation -\-> bad behaviour].

edit to add more thoughts: I don't know what's up with Khun ? (and I don't mean this as a personal flame) but his posts in this thread have indicated a somewhat inaccurate idea of what facts have come out about this incident... such as a few posts back he mentions Leo being a 6'0 body-builder (which isn't true). I think it showed up in one particularly distorted article.. before any pictures were posted. There are pictures on my facebook of me sitting and standing with Leo and he is no more than a few inches taller than me, and I'm only 5'3". I would just hope that people wouldn't take such misinformed opinions with too much weight.

I agree 100%. But I don't think anyone here is assuming there must be X sort of behaviour in order for a tragedy of this kind to occur. Rather it was pointed out that in this particular case there was history and a context, the question being, how relevant is that history/context? I don't think that question has been settled, yet, and it may never be. That shouldn't prevent us from analyzing what happened in order to learn from this tragedy.

In case you may have missed my earlier post, I met Leo on two occasions, and while I can't claim to have known him well we knew each other by name and I liked him.

[Danielle]

I think it is a dangerous assumption to make that they must have been doing something wrong in order for these events to have taken place. As so many people (on all sides of this discussion) have stated, this sort of thing happens all the time. It would be nice if bad things only happened to bad people. It would certainly be nice if being well-behaved and/or well-researched protected you from harm. Unfortunately, while it certainly can improve your chances of going through life unscathed, it's no guarantee. Not only do these sorts of things happen all the time, they also happen to all sorts of people. I'm not advocating that everyone should walk around Thailand in bullet-proof vests, but I would like to request once again that people try to keep things in perspective, with the awareness that nobody can possibly know the whole context of the situation, and realize that just because something bad happens to someone, doesn't mean they were a bad person.

Maybe [bad behaviour -> bad situation] but [bad situation -\-> bad behaviour].

edit to add more thoughts: I don't know what's up with Khun ? (and I don't mean this as a personal flame) but his posts in this thread have indicated a somewhat inaccurate idea of what facts have come out about this incident... such as a few posts back he mentions Leo being a 6'0 body-builder (which isn't true). I think it showed up in one particularly distorted article.. before any pictures were posted. There are pictures on my facebook of me sitting and standing with Leo and he is no more than a few inches taller than me, and I'm only 5'3". I would just hope that people wouldn't take such misinformed opinions with too much weight.

I agree 100%. But I don't think anyone here is assuming there must be X sort of behaviour in order for a tragedy of this kind to occur. Rather it was pointed out that in this particular case there was history and a context, the question being, how relevant is that history/context? I don't think that question has been settled, yet, and it may never be. That shouldn't prevent us from analyzing what happened in order to learn from this tragedy.

I agree that everyone should learn as much as possible from this horrible occurance. It's not so much that I think people are consciously making that assumption, so much as I think that it (or a weaker version of it) is possibly influencing their opinions of the victims. So that's why I'm urging people to consciously think about the untruth of it. From a logical standpoint it makes sense to keep in mind possible assumptions one has been making unthinkingly, so as to avoid the influence those assumptions could have on your arguments or conclusions.

From a more personal standpoint, although I understand that pretty much everyone posting in this thread never met Leo and so they can only go on the (often questionable) information presented in news articles or other sources, it's hurtful to me to see people jumping to negative conclusions about Leo's character based on the fact that this has happened, or (what I consider) trivial facts like long hair, tattoos, or pictures of him drinking with friends.

By no means am I trying to discourage the speculation of what happened or what is going to happen.

edit: I did miss that post. I'm not sure how, as I've been fairly diligently, to the extent of possibly not spending enough time on my schoolwork, trying to keep up with all the posts made in this thread. Although sometimes I've noticed that some posts will show up between two posts that I previously saw as consecutive... maybe some technical issue or some sort of "waiting for approval" system for posts.

In any case, I'm happy to hear that you liked Leo. It seems that there are so many people on the Facebook community about this incident coming forward to say how Leo influenced them positively or how positive and friendly he was to everyone, even perfect strangers. It really makes me sad that I didn't get much chance to spend time with him over the past few years, seeing as he moved out to nearby my hometown around the same year as I moved across the country to go to university.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Danielle

[sabaijai]

I think it is a dangerous assumption to make that they must have been doing something wrong in order for these events to have taken place. As so many people (on all sides of this discussion) have stated, this sort of thing happens all the time. It would be nice if bad things only happened to bad people. It would certainly be nice if being well-behaved and/or well-researched protected you from harm. Unfortunately, while it certainly can improve your chances of going through life unscathed, it's no guarantee. Not only do these sorts of things happen all the time, they also happen to all sorts of people. I'm not advocating that everyone should walk around Thailand in bullet-proof vests, but I would like to request once again that people try to keep things in perspective, with the awareness that nobody can possibly know the whole context of the situation, and realize that just because something bad happens to someone, doesn't mean they were a bad person.

Maybe [bad behaviour -> bad situation] but [bad situation -\-> bad behaviour].

edit to add more thoughts: I don't know what's up with Khun ? (and I don't mean this as a personal flame) but his posts in this thread have indicated a somewhat inaccurate idea of what facts have come out about this incident... such as a few posts back he mentions Leo being a 6'0 body-builder (which isn't true). I think it showed up in one particularly distorted article.. before any pictures were posted. There are pictures on my facebook of me sitting and standing with Leo and he is no more than a few inches taller than me, and I'm only 5'3". I would just hope that people wouldn't take such misinformed opinions with too much weight.

I agree 100%. But I don't think anyone here is assuming there must be X sort of behaviour in order for a tragedy of this kind to occur. Rather it was pointed out that in this particular case there was history and a context, the question being, how relevant is that history/context? I don't think that question has been settled, yet, and it may never be. That shouldn't prevent us from analyzing what happened in order to learn from this tragedy.

I agree that everyone should learn as much as possible from this horrible occurance. It's not so much that I think people are consciously making that assumption, so much as I think that it (or a weaker version of it) is possibly influencing their opinions of the victims. So that's why I'm urging people to consciously think about the untruth of it. From a logical standpoint it makes sense to keep in mind possible assumptions one has been making unthinkingly, so as to avoid the influence those assumptions could have on your arguments or conclusions.

From a more personal standpoint, although I understand that pretty much everyone posting in this thread never met Leo and so they can only go on the (often questionable) information presented in news articles or other sources, it's hurtful to me to see people jumping to negative conclusions about Leo's character based on the fact that this has happened, or (what I consider) trivial facts like long hair, tattoos, or pictures of him drinking with friends.

By no means am I trying to discourage the speculation of what happened or what is going to happen.

edit: I did miss that post. I'm not sure how, as I've been fairly diligently, to the extent of possibly not spending enough time on my schoolwork, trying to keep up with all the posts made in this thread. Although sometimes I've noticed that some posts will show up between two posts that I previously saw as consecutive... maybe some technical issue or some sort of "waiting for approval" system for posts.

In any case, I'm happy to hear that you liked Leo. It seems that there are so many people on the Facebook community about this incident coming forward to say how Leo influenced them positively or how positive and friendly he was to everyone, even perfect strangers. It really makes me sad that I didn't get much chance to spend time with him over the past few years, seeing as he moved out to nearby my hometown around the same year as I moved across the country to go to university.

My own opinion, based on having met Leo and based on impressions that foreign residents in Pai and Chiang Mai have shared with me, is that he was an innocent victim in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Khun ?]

I think it is a dangerous assumption to make that they must have been doing something wrong in order for these events to have taken place. As so many people (on all sides of this discussion) have stated, this sort of thing happens all the time. It would be nice if bad things only happened to bad people. It would certainly be nice if being well-behaved and/or well-researched protected you from harm. Unfortunately, while it certainly can improve your chances of going through life unscathed, it's no guarantee. Not only do these sorts of things happen all the time, they also happen to all sorts of people. I'm not advocating that everyone should walk around Thailand in bullet-proof vests, but I would like to request once again that people try to keep things in perspective, with the awareness that nobody can possibly know the whole context of the situation, and realize that just because something bad happens to someone, doesn't mean they were a bad person.

Maybe [bad behaviour -> bad situation] but [bad situation -\-> bad behaviour].

edit to add more thoughts: I don't know what's up with Khun ? (and I don't mean this as a personal flame) but his posts in this thread have indicated a somewhat inaccurate idea of what facts have come out about this incident... such as a few posts back he mentions Leo being a 6'0 body-builder (which isn't true). I think it showed up in one particularly distorted article.. before any pictures were posted. There are pictures on my facebook of me sitting and standing with Leo and he is no more than a few inches taller than me, and I'm only 5'3". I would just hope that people wouldn't take such misinformed opinions with too much weight.

I had no way to think Leo was 6' bodybuilder and any pics I seen of him I would find it hard to say he was much more than 5' foot tall and small, happy go lucky and loved to party!!!! Been there done that as I grew up in the 60's and 70's started a family young so gave it up very early in life about 20.

I never gave any description of the bunch other than previous reports of bad conduct ie; attacking police and being in drunken public brawls. Their looks most would assume they were drug abusers and hard telling until toxcity reports are published. Who do you believe when one victim has changed her stories if published interviews are accurate and also seems to of been involved in drunken brutal attacks of local officials before...... Did this conduct continue until fatal,

I would still consider it a freak show waiting or trying to find a bad ending, which it did!

Edited February 4, 2008 by Khun ?

[Danielle]

I think it is a dangerous assumption to make that they must have been doing something wrong in order for these events to have taken place. As so many people (on all sides of this discussion) have stated, this sort of thing happens all the time. It would be nice if bad things only happened to bad people. It would certainly be nice if being well-behaved and/or well-researched protected you from harm. Unfortunately, while it certainly can improve your chances of going through life unscathed, it's no guarantee. Not only do these sorts of things happen all the time, they also happen to all sorts of people. I'm not advocating that everyone should walk around Thailand in bullet-proof vests, but I would like to request once again that people try to keep things in perspective, with the awareness that nobody can possibly know the whole context of the situation, and realize that just because something bad happens to someone, doesn't mean they were a bad person.

Maybe [bad behaviour -> bad situation] but [bad situation -\-> bad behaviour].

edit to add more thoughts: I don't know what's up with Khun ? (and I don't mean this as a personal flame) but his posts in this thread have indicated a somewhat inaccurate idea of what facts have come out about this incident... such as a few posts back he mentions Leo being a 6'0 body-builder (which isn't true). I think it showed up in one particularly distorted article.. before any pictures were posted. There are pictures on my facebook of me sitting and standing with Leo and he is no more than a few inches taller than me, and I'm only 5'3". I would just hope that people wouldn't take such misinformed opinions with too much weight.

I had no way to think Leo was 6' bodybuilder and any pics I seen of him I would find it hard to say he was much more than 5' foot tall and small, happy go lucky and loved to party!!!! Been there done that as I grew up in the 60's and 70's started a family young so gave it up very early in life about 20.

I never gave any description of the bunch other than previous reports of bad conduct ie; attacking police and being in drunken public brawls. Their looks most would assume they were drug abusers and hard telling until toxcity reports are published. Who do you believe when one victim has changed her stories if published interviews are accurate and also seems to of been involved in drunken brutal attacks of local officials before...... Did this conduct continue until fatal,

I would still consider it a freak show waiting or trying to find a bad ending, which it did!

Sorry, I must have been misremembering who was still posting about the bodybuilding thing. My mistake. Regardless, it still doesn't make sense to me that you think looks alone are enough of an indication of drug abuse that you are anxiously awaiting toxicology reports. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you and you're actually making a comment about some aspect of the Thai culture which I am unaware of that would lead most people in Thailand to jump to the conclusion that Leo and Carly were dangerous drug abusers.

Tattooes don't make someone a bad person, unusual hair doesn't make someone a bad person. Even if the people involved were on drugs, that still doesn't immediately imply that they must have done something to deserve this. It just seems like many of these things would be passed off as being unimportant, until something like this happens, and then undue importance is placed on them.

[Khun ?]

No one deserves it and specially if a police officer is involved. This aside with what is known and published, it leaves a bad picture even if nothing would of happened, it was going to soon or later. All in all it had to many combinations

that would contribute to a bad ending. The drug laws alone are very harsh in Thailand and would be reason enough

for most to distance themselves from such types and extreme caution in certain areas.

Just read about the 2000+ suspected drug dealers that were recently hunted down and excuted.

Thailand is a violent drug invested place now days. It is anything but the good old layed back days of past and

Land of Smiles.

[DamianMavis]

I never gave any description of the bunch other than previous reports of bad conduct ie; attacking police and being in drunken public brawls. Their looks most would assume they were drug abusers and hard telling until toxcity reports are published. Who do you believe when one victim has changed her stories if published interviews are accurate and also seems to of been involved in drunken brutal attacks of local officials before...... Did this conduct continue until fatal,

I would still consider it a freak show waiting or trying to find a bad ending, which it did!

WHEN BEFORE DID LEO EVER ATTACK POLICE? Never. Drunken BRUTAL attacks? WHEN? NEVER! She slapped a cop ONCE because they were harrasing her boyfriend. Why do you guys INSIST on making things up to satisfy your need to keep your illusion of a safe paradise where bad things only happen to bad people alive? Why do you guys do this? Soooooo frustrating!

Damian

[Khun ?]

I did not hear about her slapping a police officer or at least remember it, there is reports of quite a bit more than that.

Why was there ever a police officer even at the scene to start with..... Oh that is right he was

the guy that just come up and punched Carly in the face and pulled out a gun and started shooting......

I cannot think of any time that I have been told of by someone or had been in a situation where I thought about disarming a person, it must be complete confussion and adrenaline.

[Danielle]

I did not hear about her slapping a police officer or at least remember it, there is reports of quite a bit more than that.

Why was there ever a police officer even at the scene to start with..... Oh that is right he was

the guy that just come up and punched Carly in the face and pulled out a gun and started shooting......

I cannot think of any time that I have been told of by someone or had been in a situation where I thought about disarming a person, it must be complete confussion and adrenaline.

We still don't know what really happened in this situation, but take for example a hypothetical example, where you believe that someone (armed) is going to harm you whether you submit or not. Maybe for some reason running away is also not an option - perhaps you are with someone who you don't want to abandon in a dangerous situation. In that case, believing that disarming them is the only way you are escaping unharmed (or even alive), wouldn't you attempt it? Or, is it at least conceivable to you that some reasonable person somewhere in the world might decide to try?

[yorkman]

We still don't know what really happened in this situation, but take for example a hypothetical example, where you believe that someone (armed) is going to harm you whether you submit or not. Maybe for some reason running away is also not an option - perhaps you are with someone who you don't want to abandon in a dangerous situation. In that case, believing that disarming them is the only way you are escaping unharmed (or even alive), wouldn't you attempt it? Or, is it at least conceivable to you that some reasonable person somewhere in the world might decide to try?

Hmmm, if I was a relative, and somebody in my family was shot, I would not be arguing semantic points, or hypothetical situations on an anonymous internet forum

[Danielle]

We still don't know what really happened in this situation, but take for example a hypothetical example, where you believe that someone (armed) is going to harm you whether you submit or not. Maybe for some reason running away is also not an option - perhaps you are with someone who you don't want to abandon in a dangerous situation. In that case, believing that disarming them is the only way you are escaping unharmed (or even alive), wouldn't you attempt it? Or, is it at least conceivable to you that some reasonable person somewhere in the world might decide to try?

Hmmm, if I was a relative, and somebody in my family was shot, I would not be arguing semantic points, or hypothetical situations on an anonymous internet forum

I don't quite understand what point you are trying to make here. That you believe I am not a relative? Or that my behaviour is inappropriate? Or simply that you and I are different people who deal with grief in different ways?

[Khun ?]

Sorry Danielle I just can't think of it, other than if first a shot was fired. I did mention before could it be that

Carly happend to be shot first ( her description of the scene waking up lieing next to Leo is the only thing she could remember).

No matter how wasted I was, I believe even crawling you would of seen the bottom of my feet on escape

and you can tell me what happend later. I've always been told most heroes are not alive to talk about it.

Oh and no one that important that I know of that I've been a night out getting wasted with.

That being said I might try to get behind one of em so as not to get shot if guns are pulled.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Khun ?

[Danielle]

Sorry Danielle I just can't think of it, other than if first a shot was fired. I did mention before could it be that

Carly happend to be shot first ( her description of the scene waking up lieing next to Leo is the only thing she could remember).

No matter how wasted I was, I believe even crawling you would of seen the bottom of my feet on escape

and you can tell me what happend later. I've always been told most heroes are not alive to talk about it.

Oh and no one that important that I know of that I've been a night out getting wasted with.

That being said I might try to get behind one of em so as not to get shot if guns are pulled.

I guess I am just having a hard time understanding what you are trying to imply. I mean, I understand that you and Leo are different people and sometimes would make different choices in the same situation. If you're trying to say, "Something else must have happened that we don't know about yet," then I can understand that too. But if you're trying to say that because you would do differently, then Leo was in the wrong, I don't think that's quite right. Also I don't think the outcome of the situation determines whether Leo's actions were right or wrong, especially considering we can't possibly know what would have happened if he had acted differently.

edited for clarity

Edited February 4, 2008 by Danielle