People's Alliance For Democracy To Renew Movement

[hammered]

On one hand, folks want to lynch the coup leaders (the same as those who killed innocent Thais in previous coups) and dismantle these ridiculous committees trying to prosecute everyone including Thaksin using laws they made up. On the other hand, some folks want to prosecute Thaksin for building a successful phone company and other crimes against humanity. But most folks want to see compromise. Let the coup leaders walk free and wine and dine with Thaksin as usual. This is the art of politics; compromise. This is where the middle path comes into play.

You could well be right on this even if to some it seems an abandonment of justice. Then again justice in many places differs in how it is dispensed between the rich and powerful and everybody else, so in some ways it becomes a little hypocritical when us mostly westerners start holding the Thai legal system to a higher standing than we expect in our own countries. I am reminded of the BAE-Saudi corruption case which will never see a court because of national interests. I am reminded of how Ken Lay, now deceased, is now not guitly even though found guilty in a court because he did not have chance to appeal th case before dropping dead and so on.

Personally, I have always argued Thaksin should see his day in court, and if charged so should coupists. However, to argue that other factors of politics or national interest or just plain big boys taking care of boys trumps the law courts is sadly in reality something that happens in places far away from Thailand and considered far more democratic than Thailand by some. Right now in Thailand the critical issue is avoiding violent conflict that could spiral out of control. I personally have no doubt that if to avoid this some compromise is needed which for poltical expedience sees Mr. Thaksins cases disappear on technicalites, lack of evidence or result in acquitals whatever the evidence looks like or just result in a few minor fines of a bunch of millions then that indeed will happen as long as those who want to compromise remain in control, and I have to say that it is probably better that they do for all of us as there are those on both sides who do not mind violent clashes occurring to try and force total victory although one would have to ask what victory there is if people end up dead.

[hammered]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/...City-dream.html

Quote(s) - click above to read all:

EXCLUSIVE: Dr Thaksin gives an amazing insight into his City dream

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/articl...to=newsnow&

1. "What about the reports of almost 3,000 killings in an aggressive offensive against drugs?"

Reply by Dr. Thaksin:

"Sometimes, as a leader you must have an angry face.

'These figures you have read are not true. They are figures created by the

military. I was not a ruthless dictator. No. There have been investigations:

The Premier League, for example, has ways of investigating these matters, I

welcomed the Fit and Proper Persons Test for new owners for that reason.'

or

2. He has survived three car bomb attacks and six assassination attempts. 'I

should be a man who drives around in a nice sports car, not an armoured

car,' he adds with a smile.

Read more football and political point of views, by Khun Dr. Thaksin - just a view days ago:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/articl...to=newsnow&

Your views after reading all this interview?

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it"

[hammered]

Jonathan Head has a nice piece up at the BBC:

Why is Thailand in turmoil again?

which concludes with the following:

So Thailand is stuck in a stalemate again. There is widespread expectation that the outspoken Mr Samak will lose control of his coalition, and possibly his party.

The threat of dissolution worries many of his MPs, who may prefer a more accommodating approach to their political rivals in the hope of forestalling such an outcome.

No parties can afford the expense of another election. Instead Thailand is likely to end up with a caretaker prime minister, presiding over a weak, re-constituted coalition.

That might be exactly the result the traditionalists, those who supported the military coup, would like.

But it would offer no clear leadership to a country which has been without it ever since Thaksin Shinawatra's fall from power.

The whole article can be found at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7427309.stm

[beammeup]

The military didn't finish the job when they were in power they should have put in a better effort in eliminating vote buying especially up north. Then there would be no need for PAD and we would all have lived happily ever after, except for Mr T.

Edited June 5, 2008 by beammeup

[disgruntled]

"Thaksin was the best thing that ever happened to Thailand. Too much of a good thing had to be removed. "

And so is Mugabe. Saddam was too.

[h90]

..in a Western democracy it would be unthinkable for a whole party to be dissolved...

In a Western Democracy it's unthinkable that Speaker of the House would gather state officials and openly bribe them to force people to vote for his party.

In a Western Democracy it's unthinkable that anyone could NOT discuss the PATRONAGE SYSTEM openly. But you know, this is not a Western Democracy. As for your friend h90 - how old are you? Are you old enough to drive a motorcycle - or a Benz? just wondering.

yeah I guess I can drive a motorcycle but didn't try a benz yet.

well with that point you are right, but for example in germany and austria you can't discuss some second worldwar things without going into jail. Which is the same wrong as the thai censorship. But it does not has anything to do with openly bribe people which is something complete different. you start like your sunrise friend to change the topic if you have no answer.

Who openly bribed who? How much money was involved? These are ridiculous accusations by a desparate loser!

So you are telling me in Isaan they did not went from house to house and offered money?

That just did not happen, right? The PPP and the other parties in the coalition did not do any vote buying, right?

All that stories were just made to discredit the honest PPP people, right?

[pete_r]

So you are telling me in Isaan they did not went from house to house and offered money?

That just did not happen, right? The PPP and the other parties in the coalition did not do any vote buying, right?

All that stories were just made to discredit the honest PPP people, right?

In Thailand, if you want to get rid of someone, you accuse him of corruption or vote-buying, or if you're really desperate you go for the accusation of disrespect to a certain family. It's too easy.

Nobody contests that some vote-buying took place, by the PPP perhaps but I would also like to know how clean the Democrats are. The point is, the influence of vote-buying on the results of these elections is way exaggerated.

I know a politician in Isaan (Roi-Et area) who went around his district in August 2007, to feel the water about which party he should join. He summarized the answers he got like this: "If you're not with the PPP, don't even bother to be a candidate". So either the PPP got up bloody early to buy votes (4 whole months before the elections), or, much more likely, they didn't need to buy votes. Because, right or wrong, they are the brand name people in Isaan will choose whatever.

If the opponents of the PPP want to get back in the government, they should stop the discrediting and politicking tactics and start developing their own political brand name backed with a real program for the next elections. That's the long and hard road, but they only want the quick and easy one, even at the cost of democracy, political stability and economic growth.

[Plus]

.. vendetta against Thaksin has broader implications in a struggle for power...

It's just that - one man struggle for power, or survival.

Right now it's pretty clear that it's only Thaksin and Newin left standing, no one else gives a toss about their fate and won't put their neck on the line.

Conspiracy theorists won't have it simple, of course, but the only new idea in Thai politics is throwing bags of shit at each other. The rest is the same old same old.

Perhaps Mingkwan can copyright the innovation and collect appropriate royalties.

[h90]

So you are telling me in Isaan they did not went from house to house and offered money?

That just did not happen, right? The PPP and the other parties in the coalition did not do any vote buying, right?

All that stories were just made to discredit the honest PPP people, right?

In Thailand, if you want to get rid of someone, you accuse him of corruption or vote-buying, or if you're really desperate you go for the accusation of disrespect to a certain family. It's too easy.

Nobody contests that some vote-buying took place, by the PPP perhaps but I would also like to know how clean the Democrats are. The point is, the influence of vote-buying on the results of these elections is way exaggerated.

I know a politician in Isaan (Roi-Et area) who went around his district in August 2007, to feel the water about which party he should join. He summarized the answers he got like this: "If you're not with the PPP, don't even bother to be a candidate". So either the PPP got up bloody early to buy votes (4 whole months before the elections), or, much more likely, they didn't need to buy votes. Because, right or wrong, they are the brand name people in Isaan will choose whatever.

If the opponents of the PPP want to get back in the government, they should stop the discrediting and politicking tactics and start developing their own political brand name backed with a real program for the next elections. That's the long and hard road, but they only want the quick and easy one, even at the cost of democracy, political stability and economic growth.

There was a large scale vote buying from the PPP but not only PPP. there is no evidence that the Democrats did it (actually why should they, the southis vote for them anyway and the Isaan wouldn't vote for them anyway).

But it is not such an important question if they would have vote for them also without cash. The important question is why are these people in parliament and not in jail. If you use fraudulent ways to get elected, you are not qualified, no matter if you would have been elected anyway or not.

[Los78]

"There was a large scale vote buying from the PPP but not only PPP. there is no evidence that the Democrats did it (actually why should they, the southis vote for them anyway and the Isaan wouldn't vote for them anyway).

But it is not such an important question if they would have vote for them also without cash. The important question is why are these people in parliament and not in jail. If you use fraudulent ways to get elected, you are not qualified, no matter if you would have been elected anyway or not."

Come on h90.... Stop with all this vote buying rubbish... It is obvious that you are just a sad and bitter Democrat support. Offcoarse there will be some irregularities in Thailand. But if you listen to all the International election observers and face the facts the election was as free as it could be in Thailand. Im sick of all these anti-PPP people just saying the same things all the time. FACE IT.. PPP are in power and respect it until the next election. If you want a military JUNTA go to BURMA. Let this country move ahead and stop all this sad bitterness about vote buying and rubbish with Taksin etc.

[younghusband]

.. vendetta against Thaksin has broader implications in a struggle for power...

It's just that - one man struggle for power, or survival.

Right now it's pretty clear that it's only Thaksin and Newin left standing, no one else gives a toss about their fate and won't put their neck on the line.

Conspiracy theorists won't have it simple, of course, but the only new idea in Thai politics is throwing bags of shit at each other. The rest is the same old same old.

Perhaps Mingkwan can copyright the innovation and collect appropriate royalties.

A little while ago Hammered recommended a BBC piece by Jonathan Head.I have just read it and it provides a brief but accurate synopsis which most intelligent Thailand observers would accept as spot on, specifically the ongoing power struggle.While suggesting you read it, I know you will stick to your "one man struggle for power" theory but anyway.....

Why don't you just come out and admit openly you support one side?There's no shame in that and some very strong arguments to support it.But to suggest that the conflict is just about one man and all the rest is "conspiracy theory" is just absurd.

Perhaps JH is in the pay of Thaksin (some moron has accused him of the usual slander), along with the Economist, Financial Times, International Herald Tribune, New York Times, Time, Newsweek etc etc.Have I left any out?

[nomoretalksin]

"BREAKING NEWS - Hear PAD in english tonight !"

PAD Stage to Feature Political Talk in English

In an effort to make their cause known to the international community and media, the People's Alliance for Democracy will hold a special program in English on Thursday at 7 p.m.

It'll be hosted by Sarosha Pornudomsak.

I guess it will be live on either

1. TOC : http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/

or

2. ASTV : http://www.manager.co.th/Home/news1/astv120k.html

Don't miss it!

and/or

in case you missed this exclusive interview with Dr. Thaksin, check it out too!

EXCLUSIVE: Dr Thaksin gives Sportsmail an amazing insight into his Man City dream (and amazing political point of views): http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/articl...to=newsnow&

[jumnien]

Who would want to hear that screaming self-centered lunatic Sondhi in Thai let alone English. Just because he's rich and owns a newspaper that you'd be ashamed to let even your cat pee on, doesn't mean he's worth being seen or heard in public!

[nomoretalksin]

very useful, social post of yours (once again sunrise07 - shouldn't your name be sunset00?) indeed. Did you ever see any politican who doesn't shout once a while? Serious question for sunrise07: "do you understand Thai and what he says/the contents - shouting or not etc. ?"

Are we trying to exchange point of views, or just posting like your style, which is beneficial for TV and progress off Thailand and in our case this thread?

By the way he's not the only one who speak's very good English at the PAD front. Sondhi also speaks by the way much better English

then Thaksin (just as a note).

And final note: I'm not posting this for you, if you don't wanna watch, no need to comment. Why waste your time?

-----

I really love those depressed posters, mouning about anything and anyone moving in Thailand, but a little contribution for the country yourself?

-----

I think it's great they try to explain their stand to all people, also to all farangs living and working here, or anyone interested in Thai politics.

What's wrong with that?

------

Update: TOC announcment has been removed now on the TOC website (don't ask me why) so I'm not sure if it will go ahead today.

Read also www.2bangkok.com (something at 18'00pm was also cancelled)

Will check 1900pm and advise again if anything to be heared in English. By the way does PAD have a website? I think they should (and translate that). Couldn't find one?!

[jumnien]

Yes, I understand Thai. Sondhi is a blithering, self-centered idiot out for his own gain. Read the "New Light of Bangkok" and get all the pro-junta spin you want to hear. Just don't ask us to believe it!

[nomoretalksin]

Do they have anything online? (new light of Bangkok)

[jumnien]

Do they have anything online? (new light of Bangkok)

Try googling the other military junta's rag first - "New Light of Myanmar". You'll find a link to Sondhi's drivel!

[nomoretalksin]

Why don't you just link "the connection" between the Myanmar Junta and Sondhi, if you think it's so useful for us here (and seams to prove? Sondhi as = Junta) ?

I just found this here now, and really don't know what you mean?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Light_of_Myanmar

http://myanmar.com/newspaper/nlm/index.html://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Li.../index.html

(googled up sondhi within, nothing found mate)

I just would like to point out his other drives, which I find quite useful for Thai society & International Relationships:

The only news channel in English in Thailand (did Thaksin ever came up with anything international like this?):

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv (just watch now: about women rights in Asia)

Did Thaksin ever initiated anything for the progress of Human Rights in Asia?

- update: found the myanmar goverment paper in English - link above

---

can you explain?

Edited June 5, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[nomoretalksin]

http://www.manager.co.th/Home/news1/astv120k.html

Sondhi live now (not sure though it's maybe replayed).

No screaming here.

[Plus]

A little while ago Hammered recommended a BBC piece by Jonathan Head.I have just read it and it provides a brief but accurate synopsis which most intelligent Thailand observers would accept as spot on, specifically the ongoing power struggle.

He said no such thing. All through his piece he speaks of trying to prevent Thaksin from returning to power, nothing else.

Only once he mentions "those loyal to Mr Thaksin and his vision of a dynamic new, business-driven democracy" but fails to specify who those people are. Do you honestly see anyone anywhere with the vision of "dynamic new democracy", especially among those loyal to Thaksin?

Come one, take out your conspiracy handbook, who are these people? Jakarapob? Samak? Chalerm? Newin?

Do you think JH was naive enough to buy Jarkapob's drivel, btw?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7427309.stm

>>>

Thaigene, Jakrapob got fried for directly linking monarchy to the "evil" patronage system, not for discussing patronage per se.

[h90]

Yes, I understand Thai. Sondhi is a blithering, self-centered idiot out for his own gain. Read the "New Light of Bangkok" and get all the pro-junta spin you want to hear. Just don't ask us to believe it!

What has Sondhi to gain?? Oh yes a better Thailand that is also something Sondhi benefits. He has no party, he does not try to get any job, so what has he to gain?

I guess thats the same hot air as Chamlong and corruption which you could never explain.....

Will you answer or change the topic to something different?

[tamsin]

Yes, I understand Thai. Sondhi is a blithering, self-centered idiot out for his own gain. Read the "New Light of Bangkok" and get all the pro-junta spin you want to hear. Just don't ask us to believe it!

you're a bit fick sunset. aren't yoo? now yoo go get yorself a nice cup of cocoa, stop quarrellin' wive the missus, try to learn to speak her language so yoo can hav a nice conversation togever an get off this forum for a bit. <deleted>

[thaigene2]

nomoretalksin - I never said that Thaksin and his buddies weren't abusing the patronage system for their own ends. I fuly agree with the above Economist report on that issue. Of course they were.

You ask me what's my point? Exactly the same point as above - that this is a war between the old family money/patronage elites, and the Thaksinites, who aren't 20 million carbon copies of Thaksin himself - but people who want to get rid of the old way of doing things. As the Economist points out, that doesn't refer to the monarchy - it just refers to the "patronage" way of doing things, a way in which most rich people in this country made their money - and don't want to abandon (maybe your family too?) and a system that pulls the country down - while wrongly suggeting (in my view) that rural poor people should shut up and be happy with their lot in life. Do you (or anyone else) have a problem with that idea?

[plachon]

nomoretalksin - I never said that Thaksin and his buddies weren't abusing the patronage system for their own ends. I fuly agree with the above Economist report on that issue. Of course they were.

You ask me what's my point? Exactly the same point as above - that this is a war between the old family money/patronage elites, and the Thaksinites, who aren't 20 million carbon copies of Thaksin himself - but people who want to get rid of the old way of doing things. As the Economist points out, that doesn't refer to the monarchy - it just refers to the "patronage" way of doing things, a way in which most rich people in this country made their money - and don't want to abandon (maybe your family too?) and a system that pulls the country down - while wrongly suggeting (in my view) that rural poor people should shut up and be happy with their lot in life. Do you (or anyone else) have a problem with that idea?

Hey, what's going on I wonder? Where's the Economist article, Nomorethalksin's posts and a few others up to mine? They've all disappeared - censorship or a gremlin in the works? Mods - can you enlighten?

[thaigene2]

Well it looks like the posts about The Economist piece have been pulled by the moderators - their call of course. Anyway, they're still on the news stands in Thailand but will probably be replaced by the next week's edition anyday now. PM me if you want to know what I've just wasted a lot of time posting about..that you'll never see (unless you run out and buy the magazine I guess - the Front Cover says Recoil (about oil). Forget which page Thailand is on about the political situation..

[thaigene2]

nomoretalksin - I never said that Thaksin and his buddies weren't abusing the patronage system for their own ends. I fuly agree with the above Economist report on that issue. Of course they were.

You ask me what's my point? Exactly the same point as above - that this is a war between the old family money/patronage elites, and the Thaksinites, who aren't 20 million carbon copies of Thaksin himself - but people who want to get rid of the old way of doing things. As the Economist points out, that doesn't refer to the monarchy - it just refers to the "patronage" way of doing things, a way in which most rich people in this country made their money - and don't want to abandon (maybe your family too?) and a system that pulls the country down - while wrongly suggeting (in my view) that rural poor people should shut up and be happy with their lot in life. Do you (or anyone else) have a problem with that idea?

Hey, what's going on I wonder? Where's the Economist article, Nomorethalksin's posts and a few others up to mine? They've all disappeared - censorship or a gremlin in the works? Mods - can you enlighten?

Plachon - Not good to question the Mods - Forum Rules. As for your other question: It's interesting how it's always a one-way street isn't it? Can you imagine a post about any other idea being pulled?

Edited June 5, 2008 by thaigene2

[Tony Clifton]

Yes, I understand Thai. Sondhi is a blithering, self-centered idiot out for his own gain. Read the "New Light of Bangkok" and get all the pro-junta spin you want to hear. Just don't ask us to believe it!

I'll give you self-centered out for his own gain...

Thaksin: "Just now, my wife asks me to stay away and, if I have to go to Thailand, not to stay for long. We have intelligence that there may be more danger." He has survived three car bomb attacks and six assassination attempts. "I should be a man who drives around in a nice sports car, not an armoured car," he adds with a smile. Even here, almost five hours of flying from his home, the Lincoln Navigators of his security unit skillfully flank Thaksin's car on his way to a business meeting.

"That is why I bought a football club, to give myself a job after I was the subject of a military coup," he explains simply.

He also launched a national lottery, fought an HIV/AIDS crisis, built a new Bangkok airport and stabilized a creaking economy. But what about the corruption allegations? Untrue; a smear campaign, he responds. What about the reports of almost 3,000 killings in an aggressive offensive against drugs?

"Sometimes, as a leader you must have an angry face*. In the past, I have ignored these allegations published in the Thai media, with whom I have no relationship. The foreign media has since picked them up and this is damaging. Now you are asking me these questions and I am happy to answer."

"These figures you have read are not true. They are figures created by the military. I was not a ruthless dictator. No. There have been investigations: The Premier League, for example, has ways of investigating these matters, I welcomed the Fit and Proper Persons Test for new owners for that reason." He is now free to return to his homeland in return for agreeing to stay out of politics for five years and to concentrate on his "football interests."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2017806

[DP25]

Come on h90.... Stop with all this vote buying rubbish... It is obvious that you are just a sad and bitter Democrat support. Offcoarse there will be some irregularities in Thailand. But if you listen to all the International election observers and face the facts the election was as free as it could be in Thailand. Im sick of all these anti-PPP people just saying the same things all the time. FACE IT.. PPP are in power and respect it until the next election. If you want a military JUNTA go to BURMA. Let this country move ahead and stop all this sad bitterness about vote buying and rubbish with Taksin etc.

Five posts, registered two weeks ago, and every single one of them is an anti PAD diatribe (you may have to look that one up in your Thai-English dictionary). Not that sockpuppets are anything new to this board, but you should at least pretend to make some posts in other topics.

[nomoretalksin]

nomoretalksin - I never said that Thaksin and his buddies weren't abusing the patronage system for their own ends. I fuly agree with the above Economist report on that issue. Of course they were.

You ask me what's my point? Exactly the same point as above - that this is a war between the old family money/patronage elites, and the Thaksinites, who aren't 20 million carbon copies of Thaksin himself - but people who want to get rid of the old way of doing things. As the Economist points out, that doesn't refer to the monarchy - it just refers to the "patronage" way of doing things, a way in which most rich people in this country made their money - and don't want to abandon (maybe your family too?) and a system that pulls the country down - while wrongly suggeting (in my view) that rural poor people should shut up and be happy with their lot in life. Do you (or anyone else) have a problem with that idea?

Great we agree on something. But your points are a bit simple. Let me try to recap my thoughts again (sorry my English is I guess weaker then my thoughts are - so are my writting skills):

I read very carefully both already several times praised articles on the BCC and The Economist and other similar ones, by other foreign or even some Thai writers. Actually I don't fully agree with their and also your idea, of this easy idea of "old and new Elite story" - 2 groups only clash" with those mentioned?

I think it's much more complictated then this.

Let's face the problem for those writers: when you have to recap a story, you have to form groups so people understand your story. Unfortunately also some of you guys, make the same mistake and to quickly people, groups, parties etc. are put into one draw or the other draw, for each and every topic.

But/So please be aware, that the political problems in Thailand have/has many aspects and topics, covering various problems & topics, and not all those groups share each time the same view.

So I believe You can't jump from one topic to the other (it can be political change in Thailand, Corruption by elected members of the current or ex goverment,

new laws regarding constitution change, old habits die hard, new habits should be discussed more open etc. etc. ) and always form the same conclusions with

the same groups (as in my idea, wrongly the Economist and BBC write shortly in 2 sentences outlined - both use also funnywise "fuzz" for the other group? Maybe one even copied the others point of views?) according your agreements with them.

It totally depends on which topic you are talking about. I also must admit that myself I'm not always loyal to either one or other group for each topic, but that's life. It's not only black and white.

All I knew is, that I think any citizen from any country, should obey any "rightful & common used" law written done. If Thaksin is been accused of wrongdoings,

and he has to go to the court, he should not tell the public, he will go but then let his proxies in the government, change the laws (constitution), so he doesn't have

to stand trial anymore. And constantly deny just anyhting put up 100%. Why can we find in google and on Human Right Groups issues, postet in over 125'000

google hits (Thaksin +corruption).

So the fact is now, PAD has this as a major goal: "corruption charges stand so please finish them in the court" but is accused from various people on their "apparently" own ideological wrong-doings, such as supporting fully the military for a coup (past or future) etc, supporting only the Democrats (vice-verca) etc.

which I truely think is rubish, as these ideas jump up again, from those wronlgy mentioned "group building" ideas, for each and nearly every topic, regarding current Thail political problems. Even if you ask the 5 PAD member's and all those people going there on each different topic, you will get quite different point of views.

---

Thaigene, your first conclusion "that their are old family/money/patronage elites, and the Thaksinites, who just want to get rid of old things" is already wrong!

Patronage elites, are among Pro-Thaksin, Anti-thaksin and even I-don't-care/mind-about-Thaksin's, same goes for old and new (what is old and new anyway?)

Next wrong conclusion that the "patronage system" is on one side only too! Why do you think Jakaprob (during the time he lost power with Thaksin) took this in my eyes realy foul excuse, to try to discredit one bunch of people (who don't exist only on his other side), which we now suddelny should believe are the old politcal power group only? Not because he really believed in what he said, no; because he wanted to make more pressure, from the international press, to let his boss return to power I must assume.

He's the first one to listen only to Thaksin for years, despite even in 2001 critizsing Thaksin himself for media manipulation etc. I mean sorry how wrong can you get? 6 years you are in power with Thaksin being "patronized by his boss" and defend every little evil trick he did, to remain in and build up his dictorial power-base, and enjoy being the "official gov.-speaker - remember he loves to talk" of Thaksin and not one 1 day you utter anything about Patronage system?? But suddelny when you loose power (by a bunch of people, who really were basically fed up with Thakin's behaviour, which includes corruption and daily lies to media and people, exactly the same thing Jakaprob stood for and even warned us against, just a view months before he came to office) you come up with this so call "evil patronage system"? Just now? And only dish it up again later again, when your own mouth brought you into trouble (but not saying one word again, while you got your power back)?

Come on let's face it, in all society we have this guang-xi, seniority-, patronage-system or whatever you might wanna call it, but surely and not only on one politcal side only (in TH)!

That's a basic thinking error. Any talk about "patronage system" in my eyes has nothing to do with the ongoing problem, the PAD is trying to solve.

3rd wrong conclusion is that most middle-class people want rural people to shut up and not have their say within any election or political topic. Who says this, besides you? What most want, I think is eduction for the poor, and sustainable long-term planned (but not needed rushy Thaksin-style give-awy-cow and land title-deed, lottery growth) growth, so they understand what are honest or dishonest messages on goverment controlled TV channels - very strongly manipulated by Thaksin and wanna be

apparantly democracy lover Jakrapob & co.

If they never will get to this understanding point, they will always fail to understand "soap opera style politicians" who claim to be their saviour (but when you look at the real stats, they only got poorer and poorer by his system) by misusing these important main election-winning tools: local TV and Radio Stations.

By the way, I would like to point out, that the Democrats still get no air-time up-country (most don't have cable with other point of views such as ASTV etc.), such as Samak enjoys whenever he wants, as "Jakaprob" couldn't find any air-time for them.

This is I think the main points what people are fed-up! This long-term planned corruption to serve only one man (and his cronies). Elite's are on both sides, and both

are old and new, just Thaksin came later to power, but his clique is in any age range as any other party is too.

I think it's not just that easy as you are trying to project it here (above you try great - better then just bashing about on your fix group postion).

Edited June 5, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[jumnien]

The Nation June 6, 2008

Eight schools disrupted by PAD led protest

Almost 30,000 students and 1,200 teachers from eight schools in the vicinity of Makkhawan Rangsan Bridge have suffered from the inconvenience of the rally organised by the People's Alliance for Democracy, the Education Ministry said in a statement released on Thursday.

The ministry is also located nearby the rally site and has found it difficult to conduct business, it said, urging the PAD to relocate its protests to a sport's stadium or another venue away from schools.