Soldiers Accused Of Torturing Islamic Religious Teachers

[george]

Soldiers accused of torturing Islamic religious teachers

BANGKOK: -- Human rights activists on Monday stepped their demand on the authorities to take legal action against a group of soldiers' accused of torturing ten suspects, including Islamic religious teachers, while under custody.

The teachers, locally known as ustaz, were from Rungroj private Islamic school, according to Kadari Binsen, an executive member from the Committee for Justice and Reconciliation.

The group demanded a compensation of Bt100 million for mental and physical damages to the ten teachers on February 5. The money, they said, would be use to support the community's funds. It didn't not elaborate as to who it would be spent.

Fourth Army's chief Lt. General Viroj Buacharoon was uncommitted to the demand but added that he was open to all sides over suggestions.

-- The Nation 2008-03-10

[traveller5000]

That is a very serious accusation, and one I doubt the government will be able to sweep under the carpet easily.

I wonder what these teachers were doing in custody, and the nature of the torture.

[Scott]

And I wonder how long before they get to go swimming with cement shoes.

[KhaoNiaw]

That is a very serious accusation, and one I doubt the government will be able to sweep under the carpet easily.

I wonder what these teachers were doing in custody, and the nature of the torture.

I'm sure the government will manage. Is this a particularly unusual occurrence? So many people have already disappeared. Unless someone comes up with video evidence or something that gets out across the nation and perhaps further, it will just quietly go away like all the rest.

[Briggsy]

The last lawyer to take this route was abducted on Ramkhamhaeng Road by police officers right outside Huamark police station in front of many witnesses and subsequently murdered.

It is very dangerous to accuse or challenge powerful people in Thailand.

Edited March 10, 2008 by Briggsy

[seonai]

Yes, indeed. I despise violence in any form and I'm afraid the 'Buddhist' soldiers are on the same level as many other Thai folks who don't actualy understand the plight of the Muslim south

[Artisi]

What human rights activists , what Islamic religious teachers, what torture - remember this is Thailand and this sort of thing doesn't happen here - especially when the police or military are involved.

[seonai]

Is that meant to be a joke Artisi?

[Scott]

I'm prettysure he's being facetious. Either that or Thai people are some of the quickest to confess to a crime in the historyof humanity!

[geriatrickid]

The article is heavy on sensationalism but short on fact. Considering how events in the south are often subject to severe spin to create sympathy for interest groups on both sides of the conflict, one would be wise to ask a few questions before joining the parade of farangs passing judgement.

Were these actually teachers? Isn't Ustaz derived from the word Ulema or "scholar". However, these "scholars" are the arbiters of shari'a law. I'll leave it up to others to contemplate public perceptions as to shari'a "justice". Perhaps the selection of the word teacher was a poor translation. The use of the word teacher certainly encourages western sympathies as westerners recoil at the prospect of teachers being tortured. Unfortunately, to date almost all of the teachers killed, brutalized and otherwise removed from the south have been employed in the government public school system and not private Islamic schools.

A private religious school is usually one that focuses heavily upon the extreme religious notions. Is it not possible that these alleged "teachers" were in fact cadres intent on poisoning the minds of the students with such ideas that Bhuddists are infidels given to idol worship? The Taliban descerated and destroyed the world heritage site that held the giant Buddhas and the only people to protest were westerners and Bhuddists. When religious "scholars" in the past have sought to spread their views on Bhuddhism in the past it has been known to provoke some angry responses from those that do not share the proponents' views. Is it possible that this may have occurred, if indeed there was even such an event?

Just how did these "scholars" come to be included in the shopping list of alleged victims? Was it a case of seeking to grab some media attention because someone needed to make a media splash to further a specific political agenda? Is it not possible that the group claiming the abuse needed something catchy with which to criticize the 72 hour detention rule. Surely, the demand for 100million Bt compensation suggests that this is more for public consumption than a true cry for justice. When was the last time any human rights organization held a news conference before a crime was proven and demanded blood money?

Yes, human rights abuses occur. Yes, there is police and army brutality. However, that does not mean that was the case here. I think it only fair that if justice is to be done that someone back up the claim with more than political sloganeering.

[Brigante7]

Did they at least feed them while they were in custody?

Bacon sarnies all around was it?

[Gravelrash]

The article is heavy on sensationalism but short on fact. Considering how events in the south are often subject to severe spin to create sympathy for interest groups on both sides of the conflict, one would be wise to ask a few questions before joining the parade of farangs passing judgement.

Were these actually teachers? Isn't Ustaz derived from the word Ulema or "scholar". However, these "scholars" are the arbiters of shari'a law. I'll leave it up to others to contemplate public perceptions as to shari'a "justice". Perhaps the selection of the word teacher was a poor translation. The use of the word teacher certainly encourages western sympathies as westerners recoil at the prospect of teachers being tortured. Unfortunately, to date almost all of the teachers killed, brutalized and otherwise removed from the south have been employed in the government public school system and not private Islamic schools.

A private religious school is usually one that focuses heavily upon the extreme religious notions. Is it not possible that these alleged "teachers" were in fact cadres intent on poisoning the minds of the students with such ideas that Bhuddists are infidels given to idol worship? The Taliban descerated and destroyed the world heritage site that held the giant Buddhas and the only people to protest were westerners and Bhuddists. When religious "scholars" in the past have sought to spread their views on Bhuddhism in the past it has been known to provoke some angry responses from those that do not share the proponents' views. Is it possible that this may have occurred, if indeed there was even such an event?

Just how did these "scholars" come to be included in the shopping list of alleged victims? Was it a case of seeking to grab some media attention because someone needed to make a media splash to further a specific political agenda? Is it not possible that the group claiming the abuse needed something catchy with which to criticize the 72 hour detention rule. Surely, the demand for 100million Bt compensation suggests that this is more for public consumption than a true cry for justice. When was the last time any human rights organization held a news conference before a crime was proven and demanded blood money?

Yes, human rights abuses occur. Yes, there is police and army brutality. However, that does not mean that was the case here. I think it only fair that if justice is to be done that someone back up the claim with more than political sloganeering.

I would agree with this, more information would be useful before jumping to conclusions. In all fairness though it can't be an Islamic Human Rights Group as their is no such thing.

"Yes, indeed. I despise violence in any form and I'm afraid the 'Buddhist' soldiers are on the same level as many other Thai folks who don't actualy understand the plight of the Muslim south. "

Perhaps that is a lttle unfair, I am sure the countless Buddhists that have been maimed, burned, shot, stabbed, blown up, decapitated or sufferered any other grusome murder fully understand the plight, and would no doubt be sympathethic to their cause if not dead already. Probably their families, friends and loved ones are the same. Spreading the love of Islam will no doubt win many converts.

I find it hard to understand those that pity the perpetrators ruining countless lives, no shortage of PC excuses, yet seem to feel nothing for their victims. An extension of the Stockholm Syndrome I suppose.

[Dupont]

I agree with the above post. I particularly liked the jibe about it obviously not being a Muslim Human Rights group!!! Nice one.

Its always, " oh my god, somebody said boo to a muslim" it , must be true and we must act.

Decapitated teachers and government officials, the lady teacher beaten to death two years ago... mere detail and not to detract from the main issue above.

Burned schools, bombed cafes. These cowards attack the old, women and children and are being taught to do it by somebody. But its "inciting hatred" to draw attention to this fact, "inciting hatred" to point out that the masses will gladly or cowardly sit back and let these things happen.

The PC mob whose voice is heard loudly when ever any villain is hunted down, is the voice of cowardice and appeasment.

[Andiamo]

The article is heavy on sensationalism but short on fact. Considering how events in the south are often subject to severe spin to create sympathy for interest groups on both sides of the conflict, one would be wise to ask a few questions before joining the parade of farangs passing judgement.

Were these actually teachers? Isn't Ustaz derived from the word Ulema or "scholar". However, these "scholars" are the arbiters of shari'a law. I'll leave it up to others to contemplate public perceptions as to shari'a "justice". Perhaps the selection of the word teacher was a poor translation. The use of the word teacher certainly encourages western sympathies as westerners recoil at the prospect of teachers being tortured. Unfortunately, to date almost all of the teachers killed, brutalized and otherwise removed from the south have been employed in the government public school system and not private Islamic schools.

A private religious school is usually one that focuses heavily upon the extreme religious notions. Is it not possible that these alleged "teachers" were in fact cadres intent on poisoning the minds of the students with such ideas that Bhuddists are infidels given to idol worship? The Taliban descerated and destroyed the world heritage site that held the giant Buddhas and the only people to protest were westerners and Bhuddists. When religious "scholars" in the past have sought to spread their views on Bhuddhism in the past it has been known to provoke some angry responses from those that do not share the proponents' views. Is it possible that this may have occurred, if indeed there was even such an event?

Just how did these "scholars" come to be included in the shopping list of alleged victims? Was it a case of seeking to grab some media attention because someone needed to make a media splash to further a specific political agenda? Is it not possible that the group claiming the abuse needed something catchy with which to criticize the 72 hour detention rule. Surely, the demand for 100million Bt compensation suggests that this is more for public consumption than a true cry for justice. When was the last time any human rights organization held a news conference before a crime was proven and demanded blood money?

Yes, human rights abuses occur. Yes, there is police and army brutality. However, that does not mean that was the case here. I think it only fair that if justice is to be done that someone back up the claim with more than political sloganeering.

I see that you have speculated above, which of course is your perogative.... However, all that springs to my mind is WHY on earth would somebody make up a story about being tortured??

I notice from the article which I quote:-

"that the Fourth Army's chief Lt. General Viroj Buacharoon was uncommitted to the demand but added that he was open to all sides over suggestions."

Surely he would have denied the claim outright if this wasn't true or some truth in it????

By saying he "is open to all sides over suggestions" implies to me that SOMETHING happened and I for one, would err on the side of believing the victims here rather than the Thai Authorities.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Andiamo

[pampal]

Were these actually teachers? Isn't Ustaz derived from the word Ulema or "scholar".

Ustaz is derived from the word Ostad which means teacher or Master, much like the Chinese word Sifu

[geriatrickid]

The use of the term "teacher" is pivotal to the story and the alleged victims are described in a manner that would lead the typical western reader to conclude that these were your run of the mill geography or social studies instructors. Here are two examples taken from reputable sources that support my view;

In December 2005, the Islamic Religious Council of Singapore (MUIS), in collaboration with the Singapore Islamic Scholars and Religious Teachers Association (Pergas), launched the Asatizah Recognition Scheme (ARS). ......Before the ARS was launched, the title ustaz (religious teacher) was given loosely by members of the community on the basis of no clear criteria. This has resulted in parents sending their children to religious classes conducted by unqualified persons merely because they are known as "ustaz".

Source: Muhammed Hanniff Hassan 7-Feb-2006 http://www.ntu.edu.sg/rsis/publications/Pe...IDSS0092006.pdf

This school, which has a student population of over 5 000 pupils, has been propelled to the centre of the current conflict that pits some 30 000 heavily-armed Thai troops against still-tobe-identified Malay-Muslim insurgents. And so have its teachers of Islam, or ustaz, and some students enrolled in the school's religious programme. This record begins with a charge made by Thai authorities that the head of the school, Sapa-ing Basoe, is a leader of one of the militant groups involved in the current campaign of violence. He has been accused of planning the attack on a military camp in the south on 4 January, 2004, that triggered the current phase of the conflict. A similar charge has been levelled at Masae Useng, a former religious teacher at Thamma Withaya, who has been fingered as one of the masterminds behind attacks on the security forces and public institutions that year. Both men are on the run, with bounties running into the millions of baht being offered by Bangkok for their arrests. The price for Sapa-ing, a man who looks to be in his fifties with a neatly-trimmed grey beard, is ten million baht.

Source: Sentoor internasjonalisering av høgre utdanning (SIU) Marwan Macan Markar Norwegian Centre for International Cooperation in Higher Education (SIU) is a public Norwegian agency that promotes international cooperation in education and research.

I left the extra detail in the above story because it provides an indication of what the exact issue is with these religious "teachers".I do not doubt for a minute that some of these religious instructors may have been harshly treated. However, the motive may lie with the lessons those people are imparting. It is not to be unexpected when the people described as infidels not worthy of life react strongly to such a description.My comment on the described human rights organization focused on the fact that the announcement was made along with the claim for 100million bt without any evidence being provided such as photos of the injuries or medical exams. The standard M.O. for HR organizations is to make the statement and to provide evidence to support the allegations. When was the last time you saw any of the conventional HR organizations like Amnesty Internaional make a significant large scale allegation and not provide proof? And when was the last time such an organization made a demand for money without first establishing the likelihood of the event?

Note: The reference to school in reference #2 is not the school cited in the newspaper article.

[geriatrickid]

I notice from the article which I quote:-

"that the Fourth Army's chief Lt. General Viroj Buacharoon was uncommitted to the demand but added that he was open to all sides over suggestions."

Surely he would have denied the claim outright if this wasn't true or some truth in it????

By saying he "is open to all sides over suggestions" implies to me that SOMETHING happened and I for one, would err on the side of believing the victims here rather than the Thai Authorities.

No. It shows he has common sense. To dismiss outright the claims would be akin to saying the allegations were made up and would have been interpreted as not taking the allegations seriously. He is doing what any smart politico does - play for time until things cool down and investigate to determine if the allegations are reliable. In the end he may do nothing, but at least he said the right thing.

[taxexile]

Unfortunately the real reason for the insurgency has been conveniently forgotten and that is the Thai claim of sovereignty over the region and the continuing erosion of a people's culture, language and traditions.

the last time i was down there , for a month in the early 90's , visiting my wifes birthplace , i discovered a wonderful part of thailand , there was a peaceful restful feel to the area , unlike most of thailand where noise and bustle predominate. thais of both faiths seem to be at peace with one another with little suspicion or wariness between them.

it seems only since the re-birth and exporting of a more fanatical brand of islam in the latter part of the 90's (to all countries with a muslim minority) , fuelled by foreign "teachers" and foreign money that the troubles have increased.

similar situations exist in just about every country with a muslim minority , infiltration by imported extremists and the slow but sure radicalisation of the population with predictable results.

get rid of these foreign troublemakers , poisoning the minds through propaganda and threat , and let the ordinary people get on with their lives as before.

the thai army should do whatever is necessary to root out these poisoners.

[lotus eater]

It seems, reading this thread, that some posters have unfortunately fallen to the trap of propaganda that the War on Terror has created, that being the notion that the problems in the South are down to Islamic extremists akin to those fighting in Afghanistan and those that perpetrated 9/11.

Unfortunately the real reason for the insurgency has been conveniently forgotten and that is the Thai claim of sovereignty over the region and the continuing erosion of a people's culture, language and traditions.

This seems to me the only sober and factual description of the underlying situation. But many are too blinded by rabid islamophobia to accept that this is a separatist movement - even though it is so described in official circles.

I wonder how even the most secular western state (or a portion of it) would behave if annexed by another state of a different history, language and culture, which then imposed its own language and culture through the re-education of the children - all under a strong military presence. (Note that I assume that there were no difference in religion.) Where it has been tried it has seldom worked.

Or how would thais react if a thai speaking corner of their country was annexed by Malaysia which then imposed malay culture in all its aspects with a strong military presence.

The solution has to be cultural and liguistic autonomy, and persuasion over a long period along with generous and patient policies. (Of course this view will be anathema to the aforementioned islamophobes. I won't be responding to their inevitable barrage.)

[Artisi]

Is that meant to be a joke Artisi?

Yes I was being facetious - do you really believe anything will ever come of this situation- or have you forgotten about the Muslim lawyers kidnapped in broad daylight and the phathetic outcome to this act.

[geriatrickid]

It seems, reading this thread, that some posters have unfortunately fallen to the trap of propaganda that the War on Terror has created, that being the notion that the problems in the South are down to Islamic extremists akin to those fighting in Afghanistan and those that perpetrated 9/11.

Unfortunately the real reason for the insurgency has been conveniently forgotten and that is the Thai claim of sovereignty over the region and the continuing erosion of a people's culture, language and traditions.

This seems to me the only sober and factual description of the underlying situation. But many are too blinded by rabid islamophobia to accept that this is a separatist movement - even though it is so described in official circles.

I do not question the legitimacy of your position. However, the issue here is a newspaper article on the alleged torture of people described as teachers. If these people were not conventional teachers but were instead political cadres, then the story has a different context in that it becomes an allegation of the abuse of people that were engaged in the indoctrination of children in political views that possibly encouraged violence and disrespect for others. As well, the incident has yet to have been established with the presentation of any facts save for the general statement that someone was abused and the demand for 100million Bh.

[KhaoNiaw]

If these people were not conventional teachers but were instead political cadres, then the story has a different context in that it becomes an allegation of the abuse of people that were engaged in the indoctrination of children in political views that possibly encouraged violence and disrespect for others.

There should be a law against that sort of thing - they could just arrest them then.

[clausewitz]

I wonder how even the most secular western state (or a portion of it) would behave if annexed by another state of a different history, language and culture, which then imposed its own language and culture through the re-education of the children - all under a strong military presence.

Do you ,eam like the Indians in USA, the maori in new zealand and Aborigines in Australia etc?

I wonder how USA would react if American indians started doing daily bombings and insisted all power be handed over to them? I guess the looney left would promptly migrate to Canada . Ohhh, but then Canada has an Indian population too..

[Prasert]

In the past the southern provinces were an independant sultanate. But there's not a single living soul alive today who can remember that situation. Thailand has changed that region since and the local people benefited from the economic developments.

And all of a sudden there's some muslim fundamentals who want to separate and go back to the old situation again. I think the Thai government should let them if every single man and woman in that region really wants to. Create a border (makes visa-runs to the south a lot faster!) and give them their independance.

...and of course all Thai companies will remove their branches since it's no Thailand anymore. Nomore GSM, 7-eleven, banks, electricity. Let them take care of it themselves, because that is what they want: independance.

Maybe then they'll realize that independence requires a lot more than building bombs, shooting budhists and shouting allah-akbar. Fact is that allah won't help them......

[Brigante7]

In the past the southern provinces were an independant sultanate. But there's not a single living soul alive today who can remember that situation. Thailand has changed that region since and the local people benefited from the economic developments.

And all of a sudden there's some muslim fundamentals who want to separate and go back to the old situation again. I think the Thai government should let them if every single man and woman in that region really wants to. Create a border (makes visa-runs to the south a lot faster!) and give them their independance.

...and of course all Thai companies will remove their branches since it's no Thailand anymore. Nomore GSM, 7-eleven, banks, electricity. Let them take care of it themselves, because that is what they want: independance.

Maybe then they'll realize that independence requires a lot more than building bombs, shooting budhists and shouting allah-akbar. Fact is that allah won't help them......

Exactly, if they want independance let them have it and see how long they last.