Need Opinions On Advice From Garage (urgent)

[markwhite]

I've had a secondhand Suzuki Caribian with probably 100,000km plus on the clock for about 6 months with no problems, but it's developed a few problems in the last few weeks and I've ended up taking it to a garage yesterday. And I'm unsure of the advice I'm being given and would like some opinions about whether I'm being taken for a ride. All conversations with the mechanic are done in Thai through my wife.

Maybe 3 weeks ago the car developed a engine rattle in mid-range revs, especially when going uphill. It was okay in neutral, 1st and 2nd, and okay cruising in 5th.

About 2 weeks ago when reversing out of my driveway on full lock, the wheels (sounded like the front left mainly) started to scrape a bit, which quickly turned into a squeal over about a week. In the last few days that had become an almost constant scraping-squeaking on engine braking, and on accelerating during the drive to the garage.

The engine rattle had got a bit worse so about a week ago I thought I'd try some things before taking it to a mechanic. Everything I read on the internet and the owners manual suggested it was pinking (pinging) due to too-low octane fuel, poor ignition timing, a coked-up combustion chamber, or knackered spark plugs. An easy first step seemed to be a bottle of Redex engine cleaner in a full tank of petrol. The two garages I'd tried to fill up at had run out of 91, but I thought that a higher octane might avoid the pinking while the engine cleaner did its stuff, so filled up with 95. This was maybe 300km ago.

The wheel needed looking at, and from the internet it looked like it was a dodgy wheel bearing that needed replacing. So I got a recommendation for a local garage and they confirmed that was the case. The cost of replacing 4 wheel bearings was quoted at 8,500baht with 4,000 deposit for parts.

The next day they confirmed the car was ready to be picked up, but then phoned later to advise the alternator was not giving out full charge and could be replaced for 1,500baht. The battery had got low a few times when I'd used the aircon so I thought the alternator might be a bit past it, so this was no great surprise. They'd also said the fanbelt needed replacing which seemed fair enough.

But asked about the engine rattle, they said that I'd put gasohol in and this might kill the engine. They said they'd have to drop the engine to get inside it to see what the problem was and I should come down to see it for myself. This is when we said we'd call back once we got some more advice.

My main questions are:

Do wheel bearings have to be replaced as a set, or in pairs, or can they be done singly?

Is 8,500 an okay price for a set of 4?

Is all 95 octane petrol actually gasohol nowadays? I filled up at an Esso station FWIW.

Will half a tank of gasohol cause problems for an engine *that* quickly?

Does the above ring true, or does it sound like I'm being taken for a ride?

If I have to drive it away and try to find a different garage, am I risking damage to the engine if I have put 95 gasohol in it and drive it with also constant pinking now?

Any comments much appreciated. I've got to call him back later to either pick up the car today or to agree for him to do the rest of the work, and I'm obviously suspect about this now which is why I'm posting here.

Cheers,

Mark...

PS: Just found a receipt from the previous owner from May last year for one wheel bearing replacement for 750baht, and a few hundred for labour. Hmmm.

Edited March 26, 2008 by markwhite

[madjbs]

My main questions are:

Do wheel bearings have to be replaced as a set, or in pairs, or can they be done singly?

They should be replaced in pairs and if one side has gone the other wont be far behind.

Is 8,500 an okay price for a set of 4?

Sounds reasonable

Is all 95 octane petrol actually gasohol nowadays? I filled up at an Esso station FWIW.

No, both are available. petrol will be about 34 baht a litre and gasohol about 30baht I think.

Will half a tank of gasohol cause problems for an engine *that* quickly?

Not sure

Does the above ring true, or does it sound like I'm being taken for a ride?

If it was in fact pinging and you ran it like that for quite a while then it's likely you did some damage inside the engine, even if it wasn't the gasohol that caused it.

[nonthaburial]

Wheel bearings do not need to be changed as sets, just change the one that is giving problems. A good test is to hold the tyre top and rock the wheel forward and back, a lot of movement will indicate bearing is either knackered OR requires adjustment. I think the quote given is high. However if this is a 4x4 then the final drive at the affected wheel might be the problem which then could be more expensive to rectify.

as for the engine pinking, have you noticed a higher engine temperature. Could be a cylinder head gasket on the way out or it could be as you suggest, timing etc etc. Your temperature gauge should indicate the seriousness of the problem. Does the car over run when ignition turned off ??

Its hard to give a full comment util more facts are known

[markwhite]

I think the quote given is high. However if this is a 4x4 then the final drive at the affected wheel might be the problem which then could be more expensive to rectify.

I've since found a few prices for bearings and they seem to be around the 2000baht mark, so I'm sort of okay with that now. As the previous responder says, it does seem reasonable.

as for the engine pinking, have you noticed a higher engine temperature.Does the car over run when ignition turned off ??

No problems with temperature, though it runs up to the red in standing traffic which, because of where I live, always happens at the set of lights at the end of a 30km fast run into town. When the wind is flowing through, it runs cool. I have noticed overrun once, which is what started me looking at ideas on the internet, and choosing a fuel additive de-coking as the first step.

Its hard to give a full comment util more facts are known

And it's difficult to know what to say that might help, which is why I tried to stick to the 'does it ring true' questions rather than the 'what's wrong with my car' questions.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[markwhite]

Sounds reasonable

Okay. Looking at UK prices of these spares it does seem more reasonable, but still nearly the twice the price of one replaced a year ago with the old owner.

No, both are available. petrol will be about 34 baht a litre and gasohol about 30baht I think.

I just got 1,000 baht worth of 95 so don't know which one I definitely got :-/

If it was in fact pinging and you ran it like that for quite a while then it's likely you did some damage inside the engine, even if it wasn't the gasohol that caused it.

I'm reading more and finding that gasohol can degrade synthetics over time, but reading more about pinking I can see why he might want to check the engine for damage because of that.

Thanks for the reply.

[nonthaburial]

Am I right in thinking that this engine is not too powerful, something like 800cc ? If this is correct then is there Air Con fitted ?? If again yes try running a distance without AC on and see if the noise diminishes and does it affect the temperature of the engine

[markwhite]

Am I right in thinking that this engine is not too powerful, something like 800cc ? If this is correct then is there Air Con fitted ?? If again yes try running a distance without AC on and see if the noise diminishes and does it affect the temperature of the engine

1400cc, and I do tend to run it without the AC since it was killing the battery doing short shopping runs in it with the AC on all of the time.

[funfun]

Pull it out of the garage and say maybe be back next week, have problems elsewhere to attend first, do not say this over phone, say it by going down and waiting whislt they finnish off, if they are conning you, they might try giving the car an added fault!

once car is out, check for prices in your own time, as another said, one wheel bearing can be replaced or adjusted (if can on model) sort the bearing first maybe, then if another does a good job send back in for noise on engine? let the test drive and diagnoise and quote.

take it easy an cha cha,

good luck

chris

[madjbs]

It defiantly shouldn't be running up to the red while in standing traffic, sounds like you have a problem there, my car never goes over the half way mark even when i have the a/c on full and sat in traffic.

I just checked my service records and I paid 6000baht for 2 wheel bearings BMW, so 4 for 8500baht on a Suzuki sounds right. Technically you don't need to replace them in pairs but if the other ones are all of the same age then they are not going to last all that long anyway, depends if you can be bothered taking it back in to get fixed.

Edited March 26, 2008 by madjbs

[goldfish]

I've had a secondhand Suzuki Caribian with probably 100,000km plus on the clock for about 6 months with no problems, but it's developed a few problems in the last few weeks and I've ended up taking it to a garage yesterday. And I'm unsure of the advice I'm being given and would like some opinions about whether I'm being taken for a ride. All conversations with the mechanic are done in Thai through my wife.

Maybe 3 weeks ago the car developed a engine rattle in mid-range revs, especially when going uphill. It was okay in neutral, 1st and 2nd, and okay cruising in 5th.

Sounds more like the gearbox, although you know where the noise is coming from

About 2 weeks ago when reversing out of my driveway on full lock, the wheels (sounded like the front left mainly) started to scrape a bit, which quickly turned into a squeal over about a week. In the last few days that had become an almost constant scraping-squeaking on engine braking, and on accelerating during the drive to the garage.

I'm not even sure this is a wheel bearing problem

The engine rattle had got a bit worse so about a week ago I thought I'd try some things before taking it to a mechanic. Everything I read on the internet and the owners manual suggested it was pinking (pinging) due to too-low octane fuel, poor ignition timing, a coked-up combustion chamber, or knackered spark plugs. An easy first step seemed to be a bottle of Redex engine cleaner in a full tank of petrol. The two garages I'd tried to fill up at had run out of 91, but I thought that a higher octane might avoid the pinking while the engine cleaner did its stuff, so filled up with 95. This was maybe 300km ago.

Does this model have a timing chain?

The wheel needed looking at, and from the internet it looked like it was a dodgy wheel bearing that needed replacing. So I got a recommendation for a local garage and they confirmed that was the case. The cost of replacing 4 wheel bearings was quoted at 8,500baht with 4,000 deposit for parts.

As someone else stated, just replace the worn one, if that is the problem

The next day they confirmed the car was ready to be picked up, but then phoned later to advise the alternator was not giving out full charge and could be replaced for 1,500baht. The battery had got low a few times when I'd used the aircon so I thought the alternator might be a bit past it, so this was no great surprise. They'd also said the fanbelt needed replacing which seemed fair enough.

I think your initial problem was the fanbelt, suspect the alternator was fine

But asked about the engine rattle, they said that I'd put gasohol in and this might kill the engine. They said they'd have to drop the engine to get inside it to see what the problem was and I should come down to see it for myself. This is when we said we'd call back once we got some more advice.

This is a clear and blatant rip-off. Upon hearing this I recommend taking the vehicle back and not letting them anywhere near it again. Go find an honest mechanic

My main questions are:

Do wheel bearings have to be replaced as a set, or in pairs, or can they be done singly? Singly

Is 8,500 an okay price for a set of 4? Sounds expensive

Is all 95 octane petrol actually gasohol nowadays? I filled up at an Esso station FWIW.

Will half a tank of gasohol cause problems for an engine *that* quickly? No, will only cause possible damage to fuel system and not that fast

Does the above ring true, or does it sound like I'm being taken for a ride? You are being taken for a ride

If I have to drive it away and try to find a different garage, am I risking damage to the engine if I have put 95 gasohol in it and drive it with also constant pinking now? Probably safer to get it away from that 'mechanic'

Any comments much appreciated. I've got to call him back later to either pick up the car today or to agree for him to do the rest of the work, and I'm obviously suspect about this now which is why I'm posting here.

Cheers,

Mark...

PS: Just found a receipt from the previous owner from May last year for one wheel bearing replacement for 750baht, and a few hundred for labour. Hmmm.

Sorry to answer with mostly more questions, but difficult to diagnose via internet and language difficulties between yourself and the mechanic

Edited March 26, 2008 by goldfish

[Thaiboxer]

91 gasoline should be fine...I wouldn't go for gasohol as that will mess up parts of the fuel system. The vehicle in question shouldn't require high octane fuel as it's not a high performance engine. Engine noises can be caused by things other than combustion knock or "pinging". Most engine problems reside not with the engine itself but with one or more of the engine support systems (cooling, lubrication, etc). Faulty valves can also cause noises as can worn engine bearings and faulty pistons.

It may also be in the clutch housing or other parts of the drivetrain. If the engine's crankshaft and transmission input shaft are not perfectly aligned, it will cause noisy, poor operation. This could have happened the last time the clutch was replaced if the mechanics didn't align everything properly.

I didn't know wheel bearings cost that much, but if others who have these types of vehicles says the price is ok, I'd be worried more about them telling you to have the engine pulled apart. Try to find a Thai who can speak English and is knowledgable about cars. Labor is cheap here, but as anywhere you can be taken for a long ride. Good luck!

[markwhite]

Okay - update for anyone who's interested.

I'd decided to go and pick it up before a couple of people here suggested the same. All the removed parts had been retained for me to look at and there were a lot of them. As well as the 4 wheel bearings, the timing belt and tensioner, fan belt, aircon belt, front brake pad and rear shoes had all been replaced, and a bottle of engine treatment and radiator cleaner had been used. A faulty flasher unit had been replaced 'for free'.

To be honest, these meant very little to me. I could clearly see that one of the belts look perished, but the others looked fine. Maybe they might go at any moment, or maybe they had 20,000km left on them. I could clearly see that one wheel bearing was much newer than the rest. The brake pads and shoes looked like they had plenty left to them, but I'm used to seeing motorbike pads which are a bit different I think.

Total bill: 8,496.

In the aftershock, I have to say the car feels better, It 'rolls' rather than feeling like it's being pushed and accelerated easier and cruised 10km faster than usual. But the alternator now does not work at all, so that needs doing very soon. The brakes feel no different.

I was unnerved that the final bill was so very close to the estimate, especially as he'd come to the figure of 8,500 within 5 mins of me bringing the car in - I'd gone to the nearest ATM and when I got back, he was on the phone to my wife. It smacked of 'filling a price' to me.

The big ones were the timing belt (2,500) and brake pads (1,250) and shoes (950). And after looking around a bit, it seems the timing belt should be replaced every 60,000km, and brake shoes should be replaced at about 5-6mm which was pretty much what mine had on them. So these could be kosher replacements, and he had agreed these with my wife and me. I just didn't know what that entailed at the time.

The engine noise is no better, but I didn't really expect it to be. It's now obviously loud on engine braking too and a few squeaks and pops have been added to the previous rattles. It clearly needs to be looked at by someone soon.

I'm still not sure whether I've been conned or not, but I just don't feel comfortable with this at all right now. My last visits to mechanics have been for the bike with puncture repairs at 20baht, an oil change for 60baht and a new chain and sprocket, fitted, for 200baht. So this just feels uncomfortable right now, even though in other ways it could be a job well done.

[goldfish]

If he has done what you say, and correctly, then don't worry. It's not particularly expensive. the important thing now is to solve the other problems, as well as the alternator, and find an honest mechanic

[bkk_mike]

No, both are available. petrol will be about 34 baht a litre and gasohol about 30baht I think.

I just got 1,000 baht worth of 95 so don't know which one I definitely got :-/

At Esso, Orange is Gasohol, Yellow is "benzene" - i.e. proper petrol, that doesn't smell and gives proper mileage.

Gasohol may be cheaper, but will eat through any rubber parts in a car not designed for gasohol, and although alcohol has a lower knock (i.e. higher octane), it has less actual power in it per litre, so you get a lower mileage.

There is still a small cost benefit after allowing for the lower mileage but it's small enough that I'm not putting gasohol into my car.

[Lickey]

Footnote, ok, radiator cleaner, inside not outside, Is the radiator matrix clogged with flies and road crap? can clean air travel through it? same with air filter for engine, is this clean? both of these will cause overheating and pinking,

Steering noise, if power steering makes a noise on one lock and not the other, its because the fluid is low, the resovoir fills on one lock and empties on the other,

Wheel bearing check, as described in a previous post, jack up wheel, check for top and bottom movement of the wheel, a better way, jack up wheel, kick it a few times to move brake pads of disc, spin wheel and put your hand on the suspension arm or anywhere the wheel is conected to chassis, or just listen, and vibration felt or rumbling heard would sugest a wheel bearing fault..

[gobs]

Hi Mark!

Well, why don't you bring your car to a Suzuki agent or dealer? For sure they know their cars...

I too own a Suzuki Sporty here in Chiang May. These cars are reliable, not complicated at all and cheap and easy to fix...

OK I (like to) do a lot of things by myself on my cars and bikes, but when I'm lazy or not sure of my diagnostic, or don't have the good tools, no problem, I rush to the Suzuki dealer here...

They work great, and their prices maybe (no, surely ) are up a garage X, but no matter, at the end, the cost is really lower than in the West!

And for other part, better than to worry all day long about something right or wrong... I, I can't support a pop, a kling, a klong or a pschhh when driving! So 500 or 1,000 Bahts more or less, may pen ray!..

For my part (OK, maybe I know a little about mechanic, I can explain and understand what happens with "my" Thai, and like to turn around when fixing...) I never had a problem and I can say I trust them. By the way, I think they have to "respect" their "brand" through their customers, even if you are not ready to buy a brand new car of their ones... Eh, maybe one day you go through! Who knows?

So don't worry more Mark, be cool and have a jump to your nearest Suzuki workshop!*

Cheers

* Well I've no interest in Suzuki brand, hey!?

** Just to say: the day you trust a workshop, never change!

[warwick7735]

Hello

It sounds to me like your big ends have worn, this will cause a noise especially under load or engine breaking, wouldnt take long for a garage to diagnose, just remove the sump and remove the bearing shells to see if they are worn worn. 100,000kms isnt much but if its been using cheap oil, or its run low at any time in its life they could go in that time.

Again without listening to the noise its hard to diagnose

Take care

[markwhite]

And another update:

A local garage have just taken it for a test drive with me and I've pointed out the squealing noise. At the garage he described what he thought it was, then got a U-joint to show us what he meant. They'd check it for free and fit it for 150 baht. After 10 mins they had a part of the drivetrain with one U joint that screeched when turned in one direction which was clearly due for replacement. 30 mins and 700 baht later they'd replaced it and the squealing has gone.

The engine rattle has also subsided. Try as I might, with the pedal floored in 4th at 40kmh, it just pulled without so much as a rattle. Maybe the timing belt change did it, or maybe it was some combination of the two bottles of engine cleaner and tank of 95, even though it might've been gasohol. I accept there may be hidden damage to the engine, but will live with this and note any new noises or problems that develop.

And we've got a locally recommended mechanic coming to look at the alternator tonight or tomorrow, but still have the chance of going back to the first place with a price of 1500 baht.

As someone rightly said, it's probably best to accept that the 8500 has been spent and some, if not all, of what's been done was needed or has made a positive difference. I may have been overcharged, but I've found a local place that I'm more comfortable with for now, so that's that.

Thanks to everyone for your comments. Advice that it's difficult to diagnose via the internet is accepted and I wasn't really expecting for anyone to do those, though appreciated the people that tried. Advice to use a Suzuki centre makes a lot of sense, and if I can find one, maybe I'll use it in the future for repairs I wouldn't want the local garage to do. An English-speaking mechanic would be great, but very unlikely to be found as I live a bit in the sticks.

For me the most helpful comments were those to get the car out of the garage and slowly find other places to check it over to get some comparisons. I was rushing it because I'd let a small noise develop into a dangerous-sounding one before I got it looked at. That's probably been the biggest lesson here for me.

Cheers,

Mark...