Is 9 Carat Jewellery, Such As Pendants & Necklace Chains, Snubbed In Isaan?

[rick75]

Blue eyes are you sure they alloy gold with titanium, I have never heard of that before and from my expeience as a Jeweller of 15 years I did not think that the two metals would melt together, so much so that we actually use Titanium as a soilder probe because the gold does'nt melt with the titanium unlike steel. Not saying that what you have said is not correct but it does'nt make sense to me.

[Ken]

Blue eyes are you sure they alloy gold with titanium, I have never heard of that before and from my expeience as a Jeweller of 15 years I did not think that the two metals would melt together, so much so that we actually use Titanium as a soilder probe because the gold does'nt melt with the titanium unlike steel. Not saying that what you have said is not correct but it does'nt make sense to me.

I was curious about that titanium "thing", so did a quick google search and came up with:

Thai gold

"The most critical thing to look for in buying gold jewelry apart from the style, is the purity of the gold. The higher the gold content, the more valuable it is. Pure gold is considered too soft for jewelry and is therefore mixed with other metals. The percentages used in the alloy is dependent on the metal and the way in which it binds with gold. The maximum tensile strength of copper and gold is achieved with 75% gold and 25% copper - 18k gold. With titanium the maximum tensile strength is achieved with 99% gold and 1% titanium. The length of time and the heat at which the metals are cooked are also significant. For example a 99.3% gold and .7% titanium mixture heated at 500° C for 60 minutes would result in a hardness of 229 HV (18k gold of 75% gold has a hardness of 170 HV). With a different temperature or time the hardness could be much less."

Interesting?

[Naam]

Blue eyes are you sure they alloy gold with titanium, I have never heard of that before and from my expeience as a Jeweller of 15 years I did not think that the two metals would melt together, so much so that we actually use Titanium as a soilder probe because the gold does'nt melt with the titanium unlike steel. Not saying that what you have said is not correct but it does'nt make sense to me.

I was curious about that titanium "thing", so did a quick google search and came up with:

Thai gold

"The most critical thing to look for in buying gold jewelry apart from the style, is the purity of the gold. The higher the gold content, the more valuable it is. Pure gold is considered too soft for jewelry and is therefore mixed with other metals. The percentages used in the alloy is dependent on the metal and the way in which it binds with gold. The maximum tensile strength of copper and gold is achieved with 75% gold and 25% copper - 18k gold. With titanium the maximum tensile strength is achieved with 99% gold and 1% titanium. The length of time and the heat at which the metals are cooked are also significant. For example a 99.3% gold and .7% titanium mixture heated at 500° C for 60 minutes would result in a hardness of 229 HV (18k gold of 75% gold has a hardness of 170 HV). With a different temperature or time the hardness could be much less."

Interesting?

very interesting because the expression "cooked" was used. moreover, the melting point of Gold is 1,064ºC, Titanium melts at 1,668ºC

[rick75]

The cooking part would come in relation to the fact that it could not be melted by a oxy torch like normal gold it would have to be done in a furnace , I think.

Also titanium is a very hard and brittle metal, so I am not sure one would fabricate it, I would think that is only suitable for casting and not for general fabrication, if you tried to roll it or form it, it would crack, thanks for the info above its good to learn something new.

Edited April 1, 2008 by rick75

[lampard10]

About eight years ago I bought an 18 Karat gold chain in BKK for around 54,000 baht. It was valued and authenticated in the UK for around 2,000 pounds. My wife keeps telling me that it is virtually worthless in Thailand, as it is not Thai gold. Any ideas on this. And if I did want to sell it where would I go?

[Naam]

The cooking part would come in relation to the fact that it could not be melted by a oxy torch like normal gold it would have to be done in a furnace , I think.

Also titanium is a very hard and brittle metal, so I am not sure one would fabricate it, I would think that is only suitable for casting and not for general fabrication, if you tried to roll it or form it, it would crack, thanks for the info above its good to learn something new.

that's not correct. rather pure Titanium is e.g. used for heat-exchangers (because it's is highly corrosion resistant) in form of ribbed tubing. there are no limitations in forming it nor do limitations exist to produce alloys with a whole bunch of other metals. other application are frames for spectacles and tons of Titanium alloys are used in the aerospace industry.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Naam

[Naam]

The cooking part...

is mostly done in kitchens. metals and alloys are not "cooked"

[rick75]

I was refereeing to the "cooking" part in relation to the high melting temp of titanium, I don't think you could melt it with a oxy torch which is generally how we melt in a workshop and that you would need a furnace to get up to the temps required to melt it. Once again just talking of the top of my head and in relation to the working of the metal.

[rockyysdt]

I am a very generous person by nature but if someone disrespected me in relation to a gift I gave it would be the last they received. Just my two cents.

I'm generally with you rick, but I'm learning that customs developed over thousands of years can run deep in the psyche of those in foreign lands.

PS: Thanks to you and all who helped me better understand gold & Thai custom.

I'll have steer clear of matters I don't fully understand and stick with things internationally accepted , such as cash.

[Cuban]

[ To save space I have just used links to the pictures that relate to this text ]

> As usual, you're a very imformative source of information.

Thank you - like many others I have learnt by going through the hoops - and like many others sharing the lessons learnt will hopefully save you and others from some of the pain, one of the great pluses of TV.

> I'll follow your suggestion to keep the 9 carat chain for its durability....

This is wise I think.

The hardness or rather the softness of an alloy is dependant on the metals and the percentages used within the alloy blend. (cooked re. above) To achive the 96.5% purity 'they' need to add 3.5% of something else to the pure gold. If Thais could use simple field rice to bulk out gold they would do so - they can't so other metals are used. I would expect that the choice of the metal(s) used is based on price of the base metal and the effect on the color of the final gold alloy.

In Europe shops sell "white gold", "yellow gold" and "green gold" - simply low % gold with lots of something else added.

> Does it come with a loop to allow it to hang on a chain?

Thai necklaces, you asked about a loop, Thai necklaces have a clasp that links the end together and holds whatever you like, typically a buddha icon. This is the typical M clasp found on all(?) Thai necklaces. As this is often opened and closed it does need to be of quite a soft gold. Some will have a stamp on the clasp showing quaility.

We talked about bracelets before, this is a typical Thai gold bracelet. You will see a nice chunky linked chain with a extra heart attached, the romantic might consider this a nice touch - a harden realist might see that as an easy piece to have removed and sold should money be difficult. Note: The large smooth links are probably hollow and will easily dent, also the use of the N shaped clasp. Misc pictures. Another web site.

> .....and perhaps I can off load the pendant for something else.

The price of an item is what someone else values it at - if you wear the pendant in her presence during your trip it might develop an association with you in her mind - when you part, leaving the pendant with her as your proxy might mean that she values it more than simply a weight of gold for it has a little bit of you and your spirit mixed in with the gold alloy. Goes from so many grammes of 9 Karat gold to priceless.

> I can then purchase 1 baht of gold in Thailand.

> If I buy 1 baht of gold for around 14,000B is it fashioned

> in any shape or style and does this affect its price?

The price this morning was "about" 15,000 Baht per Baht - I checked with a few places in Pattaya and got the same response.

In my experiance you generally ask for a tray of "Three Baht Necklaces" and everything within that price bracket is offered/shown to you (your partner). When questioning the price, the piece will be weighed and by making referance to the day's gold price a offer price will be made to you.

Gold dealers - for this is a more honest expression than "Gold Shop" or jewellers - prefer to accept cash rather than credit or debit cards. Use of plastic will incure about 3% handling "fee" the rights or wrongs of this practice belong in a thread elsewhere.

> Is there a jeweller in Pattaya that you recommend?

To be honest, no.

It is many years since I bought gold in Pattaya, at the time I was a newbie and I'm thankful that I wasn't completely ducked over. The forums I belonged to at the time was less informative than TV and posts were limited to "I was ducked over" rather than informed debate on the detail. To be fair the problem was the girl rather than the shop.

I consider (rightly or not) that Pattaya prices are higher than up country prices, also there is common talk of the Pattaya gold shops running scams with farangs buying bad gold or setting the resale value with the farang's partner at the point of sale, to be redemed when he ends his holiday.

Generally the shop will provide a "free" gift with the purchase, we have a selection of cheap handbags and small holdals like this. I think the only solution is to shop around.

The gold you buy must be provided with a certificate of some sort, detailing the weight of the piece.

Final thought: You are not forced to buy gold. If the underlying desire is for kitchen goods buying a washing machine directly is more efficient than the transfer of funds from your home country's credit card to a Pattaya gold dealer into metal then back into Thai Baht at a lower rate.

[blue eyes]

I am only going by what some Chinese people have told me about the gold that is sold in Thailand as Thai gold.To the titanium content that is.I am not a seller of gold or a maker of.Ken that is an interesting site, thank you.As to some of the other links that someone has placed,I would be very suspicious of anyone selling Thai gold outside of Thailand.I always thought that it was illegal to export Thai gold.

[lampard10]

I would still like to know, if an 18 Karat gold chain,l bought from as reputable dealer in BKK has any value in Thailand. My better half says it is virtually worthless here, and would not be accepted by any pawn shops, or as callataral. I do realise that even although it was valued, and insured for 2,000 sterling in UK( a long time ago), if I was to sell it there, I would only get the melt down weight.

[twschw]

Your wife is correct. 18K is not valued very highly here.

[rockyysdt]

Initially, prior to exploring gold as a gift idea, I had no idea about the subject and didn't even know what carat meant in terms of gold content.

This thread has been very informative and I now have more knowledge than many Australian Jewellers, some of whom refer to Thai gold as junk jewellery.

My fascination through the years with gold has always been about its value as a prescious metal.

Now we know, "durability and artistic content of 9 & 18 carat gold" vs "genuine value of 96.5% plus purity of 23 & 24 carat gold".

I'm with the Thai's on this one.

The chunky 9 carat gold bracelet given to me many years ago is mostly brass. Just as well I have sentimental attachment to it, because after 12 years I don't think a jeweller would even give me a fraction of the original purchase price.

Had it been Thai gold all I'd have to do is weigh it.

[raybkk]

If the girl is brass then she will consider 9k brass. If she has a bit more class and education she would understand that 9k is very practical for jewelry and can be worn daily without becoming battered and gruby like 23k quickly becomes.

However it is generally the case that the isan girl would prefer 23k as it is valued as money so looking trashy doesnt matter

A girl with a "bit more class and education" would not wear it.

[Naam]

If the girl is brass then she will consider 9k brass. If she has a bit more class and education she would understand that 9k is very practical for jewelry and can be worn daily without becoming battered and gruby like 23k quickly becomes.

However it is generally the case that the isan girl would prefer 23k as it is valued as money so looking trashy doesnt matter

A girl with a "bit more class and education" would not wear it.

TRUE!

[Naam]

If the girl is brass then she will consider 9k brass. If she has a bit more class and education she would understand that 9k is very practical for jewelry and can be worn daily without becoming battered and gruby like 23k quickly becomes.

However it is generally the case that the isan girl would prefer 23k as it is valued as money so looking trashy doesnt matter

A girl with a "bit more class and education" would not wear it.

TRUE!

and a man with a "bit more class and education" would not buy it!

[thatguy]

i would guess that "cooking" would refer to a tempering process. heating , cooling, holding times & temperatures and such affect grain formation, crystal structure etc. all influencing hardness, ductility, brittle, blah blah. you name the property.

often more art than science, and closely guarded secrets even today I would imagine. Damascus steel has only recently been approximated.

[cathyy]

I'm not Thai, and I'd never wear 9K gold. If I was given it as a gift, I'd be insulted. 9K is the lowest end cheap junk you can buy in the US and still call it "gold." 14K is better than 9K, but I have a personal liking for 18K in the US. You can still get it, it just isn't cheap. I bought an 18K necklace for my sister to hold an 18K pendant I got here in Thailand. Over here I'd prefer it to be Thai gold even over 18K. I haven't seen any durability issues with my Thai god, what little of it I have.

Edit: note from my husband. He said "So he's not going to be getting any..."

Edited April 6, 2008 by cathyy

[hp8000]

A girl with a "bit more class and education" would not wear it.

Right, and abroad thai gold looks like vulgar. It's just to much flashy and shapeless compared with "real" jewellery.

[rockyysdt]

If I was given it as a gift, I'd be insulted. 9K is the lowest end cheap junk you can buy in the US and still call it "gold." 14K is better than 9K, but I have a personal liking for 18K in the US.

I suppose it depends on how wealthy one is and what they value in life.

Many will equally turn their nose up to 18 K.

The 9 K gold necklace which I bought is delicate, very pretty to look at, and not particularly cheap to buy. Its purpose is to hold a figure of Buddha as a constant reminder to the wearer of being mindful of their path in life.

I thought the love behind giving was more important than consumerism and dollar value of a gift, except of course in Thailand where gold is a tradeable commodity rather than a piece of jewelery with sentimental value!

Do women judge men by how expensive the jewelery is they buy for them?

Edited April 6, 2008 by rockyysdt

[marshbags]

The regular goldsmith i, ve used for several years will not entertain 9k and as many have pointed out and she told me, the content of gold is not worth her time and effort.

Again as many have said, gold is money in the bank for Thai and is used as and when it needs to be cashed in for hard cash in emergencies.

There is nothing sentimental as we as foreigners view and appreciate pressies.

Several years ago, my first wife returned some 9k stuff back to me and said she didn,t want it, because it was deemed as worthless for the reasons highlighted above.

Sentimentally it was precious to me ( not in monetary terms ) and i tried to explain this to her, but she couldn,t grasp it in these terms so it was replaced with the local commodity and i took the 9k back home and boxed it.

I always buy Thai gold for selected friends / family back home and they are always delighted when they go to value it for insurance purposes and are well impressed by the valuations.

I tell them it,s a good investment from my point of view, especially when you compare it to buying other presents for the same amount of money the gold has cost me.

14k baht / 220 pounds, won,t buy you much of anything in the U.K., while the 1 baht of gold it buys is worth much more in U.K. terms and is much more appreciated by everyone ( 2 /3 baht in some cases )

marshbags

P.S.

It,s so easy to transport and doesn,t take much effort to shop for either.

[bina]

i prefer the 'flashy' thai gold, its pretty; and probably useful.

the one baht necklace i got as my sinsot (i'm 'used' goods ha haa) is too long for me to wear daily; i only wear it to thai functions as a way of stating that i am married (to thai husband)... when we married, we went and bought a two saleung necklace for daily wear. that is 'his' ring to give me. i got him a 21 karat gold ring from the 'arab' side of jerusalem, since they also prefer higher karat gold. the west side has the standard 14 and 18 karat gold stuff which anon doesnt consider gold. and there are no sentiments attached to the one baht necklace for him... its just portable money and a symbol that he gave me a sinsot, more or less. (i didnt demand it, but he felt it right) . i also have a 21 karat gold ring. and it was cheaper on the 'other' side then on the western side of the city as basically i only paid the price of the weight in gold, plus a bit, and not for the design etc.

the two saleung gold necklace i have is the solid filled design, which means it is smaller but heavier; the one baht is a hollow design (lots of websites with the standard pics and explanations of the designs) but long.

the clasps are very pretty (a sort of garuda holding the M clasp on either side) and i have gotten compliments on that! as very pretty and exotic. an other good thing, the gold looks fake so not a target for thieves here, though in thailand was told not to wear it in the big city.

oh, all the jewellers here refused to even look at my necklace (i wanted to shorten the one baht one to fit me,as i am small) saying they dont have the tools or welding stuff for that soft a gold and if they do something, it will leave a 'scar' on hte gold. so will have to wait to go to thailand.

bina

israel

Edited April 7, 2008 by bina

[Gary A]

I had some gold from the US that I brought over with me. I offered it to my wife and she wouldn't wear it because it was mai jing. (Not real). If it is not yellow Thai gold, it is not real. It actually didn't matter to the thief who broke into the house and stole it though.

[cathyy]

Do women judge men by how expensive the jewelery is they buy for them?

Yes. The more men are willing to spend on you, the more important you are to them versus the other things they might do with that money. I am not saying this is logical. I am saying that it simply is. Perhaps it is a way of seeing how a man might care for you after marriage. Will you always be wearing clothes from the discount store, or will you have some nicer outfits? Will the vast majority of his discretionary income go to things he wants (a new videogame console?) or will he like to spend part of it on you? This is very important to a woman who will not be earning her own income.

This is not just an issue with gold, either. Think diamonds, etc. I myself have a weakness for a particular, and expensive, line of handbags. (Coach!) My husband was happy to humor me in this, but certainly not to excess, and never when the budget didn't allow it. He spoils me, and always has. Likewise, I spoiled him in return when I worked.

[Arkady]

This is quite an old thread but hear goes. The most practical way to buy gold for Thais, particularly for dowry purposes is undoubtedly to buy gold ingots of Thai gold. The recipients will definitely sell or porn the gold you give them it one day, probably quite soon, and there is no point in paying the spead and labour charge for jewellery that has a pre-ordained date with the melting point in the not too distant future. Gold bar costs less to buy than jewellery and you get more for it when you sell it. This equates to a spread between buying a selling prices for gold bar of only 0.4% versus 3.5% for jewellery. For jewellery you also have to add the labour cost to the spread. So the gold price may need to rise 8% before you can break even on your purchase against only 0.4% for ingots. The larger branches of the main gold shop groups, i.e. in Seacon Square, MKK and Yaowarat usually stock 5 and 10 baht ingots stamped with their brands that they will readily re-purchase. It is also possible to buy ingots of 99.99 fine gold from Credit Swiss etc nowadays. These start from one ounce.

[barrybankruad]

This is quite an old thread but hear goes. The most practical way to buy gold for Thais, particularly for dowry purposes is undoubtedly to buy gold ingots of Thai gold. The recipients will definitely sell or porn the gold you give them it one day, probably quite soon, and there is no point in paying the spead and labour charge for jewellery that has a pre-ordained date with the melting point in the not too distant future. Gold bar costs less to buy than jewellery and you get more for it when you sell it. This equates to a spread between buying a selling prices for gold bar of only 0.4% versus 3.5% for jewellery. For jewellery you also have to add the labour cost to the spread. So the gold price may need to rise 8% before you can break even on your purchase against only 0.4% for ingots. The larger branches of the main gold shop groups, i.e. in Seacon Square, MKK and Yaowarat usually stock 5 and 10 baht ingots stamped with their brands that they will readily re-purchase. It is also possible to buy ingots of 99.99 fine gold from Credit Swiss etc nowadays. These start from one ounce.

What about Kruger Rands and the coin produced by the West. Australian Mint which they claim to be the purest gold in the World? I wonder how these would go down in Thailand.

[klikster]

Yes, 9 k, 14 k, and 18K gold is so essentially undesirable I urge anyone to rid their households of that worthless junk by sending it to me. I will diligently dispose of it in an ecologically responsible manner. PM me for mailing address.

No charge for disposal service.

Edited December 18, 2011 by klikster

[Roadman]

I would suggest that none of you westernise your thai partners.

When we lived in Thailand my partner would only want thai gold for the money in the bank value of it. She had sufficent of it but never wore the heavy thick gold chain (thankfully) only the real thin gold chain. Then we came and lived in the western world and she learnt the true value of having cheaper harder gold chain. She become a diamond lover (I wish she hadn't) and there she learnt the hard lesson of trying to wear expensive diamonds on soft light thai gold chains. She eventually lost a single one carat diamond that she was trying to wear on light thai gold chain that kept unthreading and breaking - one could see the eventual end result a long way out but some cannot be told. I also had the same problem with light thai gold chain always breaking with the pendant that I used to wear. And neither of us like wearing the heavy thick thai chains. Thai gold does have the better value for cash needs but that is about it. For security of expensive stones like diamonds and for a balanced look the lighter stronger cheaper western chain is all my partner will now wear. But then the interest and real value isn't the gold its the 1 carat single diamonds.

[Naam]

This is quite an old thread but hear goes. The most practical way to buy gold for Thais, particularly for dowry purposes is undoubtedly to buy gold ingots of Thai gold. The recipients will definitely sell or porn the gold you give them it one day, probably quite soon, and there is no point in paying the spead and labour charge for jewellery that has a pre-ordained date with the melting point in the not too distant future.

What about Kruger Rands and the coin produced by the West. Australian Mint which they claim to be the purest gold in the World? I wonder how these would go down in Thailand.

the advantage of Krüger Rands is that they can't be porned