As A Foreigner Why Is "buying" Better Than Renting?

[Naam]

Unlike you, I don't have the time to log onto the WWW and play "make believe".

of course not. it's "pat caviar cum lobster people" and not poor "pat thai people" who have all the time at their disposal if they want to log on to the "www"

[Naam]

One of my neighbors in Ca. bought an 8 million$ beachfront property/house.

Sold it for 28 million$ a few years later to some internet tycoon.

Walked away with 15million $ profit.

my grandfather was your neighbour?

Could be I suppose. You do come off as someone born on 3rd base that thinks he hit a triple.

what about posting in a language i master? try english, french, german, spanish, italian, dutch, portuguese, arabic, farsi, hindustani, tiv, yoruba or urdu instead of a low level dialect which evolved in a former british colony where we europeans sent for centuries our "good-for-nothings"?

[thaigene2]

The OP is really asking why LEASE a house (e.g. 'buy' a 30 year leasehold) versus rent a house.

To me it's obviously cheaper to rent in most cases, since you don't actually own the property in any event, why would you pay 30 years worth of 'rent' up front (because that's exactly what you're doing when you 'buy' a leasehold - paying the rent 30 years in advance).

As someone above pointed out the rental prices vary widely and those asked by some are silly - the market makes little sense. Still, when you get away from the silly advertisements and actually go out in the area where you want to live, you'll see rents are much, much cheaper than the outlandish prices asked in newspapers and property company leaflets. You need to walk up and down the sois and look at the signs on the telephone polls.

Realistically, it's 20-30,000 baht for a 3-bedroom house in central Bangkok (outside of Sukhumvit but walking distance to the Skytrain/Subway) and there are many, many for rent. Now that's not 'new' - but even 'new or newish' kitted out with a Western kitchen etc, won't be more than 40-45,000 per month. These properties, if put up for sale, would fetch around 25-30 Million baht - so that's like 1/1000 ratio!! Of course the property prices in Bangkok are way overblown anyway - a correction is due.

[Burgernev]

To me it's obviously cheaper to rent in most cases

Don't know enough about Bangkok rental and prices to comment, but in Hua Hin it is definately cheaper to buy (30 year rental if you like) than to rent.

That includes taking into account lost interest (no risk rates) on the capital you put in upfront to buy.

but even 'new or newish' kitted out with a Western kitchen etc, won't be more than 40-45,000 per month. These properties, if put up for sale, would fetch around 25-30 Million baht

As I say I don't know, but is that correct ? 45k a month rental for a 30M Baht house in Central Bangkok ? That's probably half priced compared to non-Central Hua Hin.

Burgernev

[GuestHouse]

what about posting in a language i master? try english, french, german, spanish, italian, dutch, portuguese, arabic, farsi, hindustani, tiv, yoruba or urdu instead of a low level dialect which evolved in a former british colony where we europeans sent for centuries our "good-for-nothings"?

Be careful - there has been wide disgreement throughout Europe and European history of what exactly constitutes a 'Good-for-Nothing' and where exactly to send them.

Not to disagree that the British did send what they chose to define as 'good-for-nothings' to the colonies, but it seems a better solution than applied elsewhere.

------

Having said that, you seem to have mastered an impressive number of disparate languages - odd that Thai is absent from the list - did you forget to mention the language of your chosen home and a language that you presumably have 'mastered' in these pat 28 years of 'Thai Experience'?

Edited April 5, 2008 by GuestHouse

[thaigene2]

what about posting in a language i master? try english, french, german, spanish, italian, dutch, portuguese, arabic, farsi, hindustani, tiv, yoruba or urdu instead of a low level dialect which evolved in a former british colony where we europeans sent for centuries our "good-for-nothings"?

Be careful - there has been wide disgreement throughout Europe and European history of what exactly constitutes a 'Good-for-Nothing' and where exactly to send them.

Not to disagree that the British did send what they chose to define as 'good-for-nothings' to the colonies, but it seems a better solution than applied elsewhere.

Let's see now -- the 'good-for-nothing's' were sent to North America, Australia, New Zealand, where a few generations later they all enjoy a much higher standard of living, bigger houses, better teeth , often a much better climate (one with 4 seasons anyway) and a more positive attitude (a "can-do-spirit").

Compare that to those left behind on the housing estates, the crime, the hostility, the class-system, etc, etc..

If I ever opened a pub in the UK I'd call it "The Winge and Moan"

[huggybear]

I too "own" property but like Boo it is in my spouse's name.

I'm glad you did parenthesis around "own" as it seems to me if it's in your spouse's name.....she owns it.

[Boo]

or in my spouses case, he i never bought the land & I wont be paying for the build either but I will get final say on design, fixtures & fittings. if it all goes tits up he's welcome to it cause all that worthless (?) property in the UK is all in my name not to mention my recently inherited land in spain which in the past 10 years has increased in price 800 % so no problem for me to have it all in his name. bu tbh i too prefer to rent in los in busy areas, you just never kno who is gonna set up next door.

[Naam]

what about posting in a language i master? try english, french, german, spanish, italian, dutch, portuguese, arabic, farsi, hindustani, tiv, yoruba or urdu instead of a low level dialect which evolved in a former british colony where we europeans sent for centuries our "good-for-nothings"?

Be careful - there has been wide disgreement throughout Europe and European history of what exactly constitutes a 'Good-for-Nothing' and where exactly to send them.

Not to disagree that the British did send what they chose to define as 'good-for-nothings' to the colonies, but it seems a better solution than applied elsewhere.

------

Having said that, you seem to have mastered an impressive number of disparate languages - odd that Thai is absent from the list - did you forget to mention the language of your chosen home and a language that you presumably have 'mastered' in these pat 28 years of 'Thai Experience'?

no, i did not forget Thai. in olden times i was interested to learn Thai. nowadays i'm neither interested to learn the language nor do i consider it mandatory to use it (exceptions do exist of course).

by the way, Thailand is not my home and will never be. my home is my house. it just happened that for certain reasons i chose to build it on a plot of land located in Thailand

[bingobongo]

not sure of the tax structure in the Thailand, but plug the numbers into LOS and the numbers dont lie (this does not even account for the oversupply of property in LOS)

Over the course of a 30-year fixed mortgage you pay out 3x the purchase price. So... on a $100k house you pay $200k in interest. The average tax savings is 25% (in the US that is, plug in the appropriate tax rate for LOS) of that, or $50k, meaning you took a $150k loss. Doesn't make sense to me.A house is a place to live, sleep, eat, enjoy your life, raise a family. It is NOT a lottery ticket. If you want to invest in real estate, the vehicle is through rental/income properties (but not now given the glut of property in the LOS), not your own house.

The best investment always has been and always will be a business. That's where I put the money I'd otherwise be wasting on interest tribute to a bank.

Edited April 5, 2008 by bingobongo

[Heng]

It depends. If you're middle aged and just now buying your first home, or buying a home that will be your only home, IMO that could be a relatively high risk purchase. You should probably stick to the global markets and renting here.

If it's a second or third, etc. home, less so. If you have a trustworthy spouse, less so. If you don't even know each other that well, more of a risk. And so forth. In other words, sometimes too much tunnel vision on the return %'s might be a bad idea, not too mention that country risk vs. market risk comparisons are going to be rather arbitrary anyway.

Who would ever admit to not having a ( current ) trustworthy spouse ?

They aren't too difficult to pick out. Anyone who falls into the "the whinger doth protest too much, methinks," category probably has some kind of bad experience in Thailand issue and are either trapped here living a life not up to their own hopes/dreams or are now 'back home' somewhere and trolling the webforums as a Thailand withdrawal therapy. Either buying fits your circumstances or renting fits your situation better. When you start getting angry or start arguing with other people because their circumstances aren't the same as your own, well you've pretty much called yourself out.

[YoungFarang13]

Heng,

Why do you dislike stock markets? I kind of know what you mean, because its almost impossible to get a strong grapse on investing or feel confident that you can read a report and then invest in a single company... but with the emergence of etf index funds you can essentially invest in categories as wide as "China" or "US Housing" or "Global Energy" or "Emerging Markets" etc etc... Assuming you believe the World's economies will expand long term, why are you scared of putting your money in the markets? buy and hold in a diverse portfolio seems like as safe as bet as you can find. china/india etc have to return > 5-6% or whatever you are getting in a money market account. they might lose 20% in a year here or there, but long term, as in decades you are almost undoubtedly going to get more than you would in a money market account.

Edited April 5, 2008 by YoungFarang13

[YoungFarang13]

not sure of the tax structure in the Thailand, but plug the numbers into LOS and the numbers dont lie (this does not even account for the oversupply of property in LOS)

Over the course of a 30-year fixed mortgage you pay out 3x the purchase price. So... on a $100k house you pay $200k in interest. The average tax savings is 25% (in the US that is, plug in the appropriate tax rate for LOS) of that, or $50k, meaning you took a $150k loss. Doesn't make sense to me.A house is a place to live, sleep, eat, enjoy your life, raise a family. It is NOT a lottery ticket. If you want to invest in real estate, the vehicle is through rental/income properties (but not now given the glut of property in the LOS), not your own house.

The best investment always has been and always will be a business. That's where I put the money I'd otherwise be wasting on interest tribute to a bank.

you should find out what the word 'inflation' means.

[thaigene2]

It depends. If you're middle aged and just now buying your first home, or buying a home that will be your only home, IMO that could be a relatively high risk purchase. You should probably stick to the global markets and renting here.

If it's a second or third, etc. home, less so. If you have a trustworthy spouse, less so. If you don't even know each other that well, more of a risk. And so forth. In other words, sometimes too much tunnel vision on the return %'s might be a bad idea, not too mention that country risk vs. market risk comparisons are going to be rather arbitrary anyway.

Who would ever admit to not having a ( current ) trustworthy spouse ?

They aren't too difficult to pick out. Anyone who falls into the "the whinger doth protest too much, methinks," category probably has some kind of bad experience in Thailand issue and are either trapped here living a life not up to their own hopes/dreams or are now 'back home' somewhere and trolling the webforums as a Thailand withdrawal therapy. Either buying fits your circumstances or renting fits your situation better. When you start getting angry or start arguing with other people because their circumstances aren't the same as your own, well you've pretty much called yourself out.

That's of course a very true summary. Then again I wouldn't connect the two issues too closely together. If you're a Chinese-Thai and you have security of land title you are in a different situation to those farang among of us who are married to Thais (of any ethnic background), and have Farang-Thai kids here. Unlike your 'thai-chin' kids - but we have NO security of land title - and aren't even allowed to work here to support our families (by and large) since we don't have the (apparent) ability to bribe, hide and shuffle enough bullsh+t documents around between guanxi civil servant family members and others to make it all happen.

We all have marital issues - and ethnic background has no bearing on that, wouldn't you agree? It's just that the farangs or thai-farang seem to be singled out for attention - BECAUSE of our disempowerment in the overwelmingly corrupt Thai-Chinese establishment..an establishment that doesn't want us to compete with them!

But hey - YES - I'd agree overall - don't get angry - find a way to get even (with your spouse with the govt with Mr 888, or whomever)!

Edited April 5, 2008 by thaigene2

[thaigene2]

By the way - on a separate issue beware the newbies talking up markets (of all sorts) - no refernce to young farang13 (it just reminded me of this) - becuase big finaincial houses, the US government and probably a host of others are paying people to troll these sites to try to shift opinion on any number of issues - like the US government is your friend, Wall Street will never collapse, the US dollar will always do this or that, etc.

It's peanuts to pay a few people to do these things and reach big numbers of eyeballs..so bear it in mind that's all..Looking at the number of posts one has made is a good starting point (look below their avatar)

Edited April 5, 2008 by thaigene2

[thaigene2]

or in my spouses case, he i never bought the land & I wont be paying for the build either but I will get final say on design, fixtures & fittings. if it all goes tits up he's welcome to it cause all that worthless (?) property in the UK is all in my name not to mention my recently inherited land in spain which in the past 10 years has increased in price 800 % so no problem for me to have it all in his name. bu tbh i too prefer to rent in los in busy areas, you just never kno who is gonna set up next door.

Boo - if those are your lips - you can have a sami-noi anytime!

Edited April 5, 2008 by thaigene2

[number9999]

id never buy a house here as an investment but have a house in my Thai wifes name because its

our home and our kids home houses do not go up in value here they fall in value Thais argue but

land goes up thats probably true but think about it you buy a 3 mill house the land is probably 1 mill

so land has to go up a huge amount to make up for fall on value of house Exceptions exist but only

at the very top of the marker 20mill up Condos I do but as investments and they have done very well

guvung an average return of around 10% but capital appreciation has not been as good as it was

in west although its now going up in some areas very fast

For anyone not married to a Thai and who wants to live in a house renting is far far better IF your here

long term married to a thai then buy a house but it wont be yours its hers

[number9999]

The main advantage of owning a home is the psychological factor of 'having a home' but in Thailand, lol, you still have to leave every 3 months so what is the point?

the point is that not everybody has to leave every three months. as simple as that

exactly a lot are on retirment visas or marriage visas year by year and never have to leave unless

they decide to boot us all out

[Heng]

Heng,

Why do you dislike stock markets? I kind of know what you mean, because its almost impossible to get a strong grapse on investing or feel confident that you can read a report and then invest in a single company... but with the emergence of etf index funds you can essentially invest in categories as wide as "China" or "US Housing" or "Global Energy" or "Emerging Markets" etc etc... Assuming you believe the World's economies will expand long term, why are you scared of putting your money in the markets? buy and hold in a diverse portfolio seems like as safe as bet as you can find. china/india etc have to return > 5-6% or whatever you are getting in a money market account. they might lose 20% in a year here or there, but long term, as in decades you are almost undoubtedly going to get more than you would in a money market account.

Mainly what I dislike is market risk. I prefer institutional risk. And of course there is the standard principal-agent distrust that not only I, but a lot of people have with those entrusted to handle their best financial interests. For what I require, I'm able to handle myself. I simply don't want or need "aggressive" growth and increased risk to my assets. No matter what they pitch you, the returns may be higher, but so is the risk. Slow and steady. Of course, I am open to changing this philosophy at any time, but as of now, I still hang up on cold callers (if it's that good, you don't need me on board... good luck earning your 3% somewhere else).

[Heng]

That's of course a very true summary. Then again I wouldn't connect the two issues too closely together. If you're a Chinese-Thai and you have security of land title you are in a different situation to those farang among of us who are married to Thais (of any ethnic background), and have Farang-Thai kids here. Unlike your 'thai-chin' kids - but we have NO security of land title - and aren't even allowed to work here to support our families (by and large) since we don't have the (apparent) ability to bribe, hide and shuffle enough bullsh+t documents around between guanxi civil servant family members and others to make it all happen.

We all have marital issues - and ethnic background has no bearing on that, wouldn't you agree? It's just that the farangs or thai-farang seem to be singled out for attention - BECAUSE of our disempowerment in the overwelmingly corrupt Thai-Chinese establishment..an establishment that doesn't want us to compete with them!

Of course it's a different situation, because the two groups are at two different stages of social/immigrant evolution here. While you seem to have some issues with those involved with the government, by and large most people in the ethnic group that you apparently have a distaste for have nothing to do with them. For myself for example, I would love to have acquired in 5 years through gov't contract/guanxi type shortcuts what it took three generations to acquire and accrue, so I find it quite amusing when people assume that I'm one of those who did.

Actually the Thai Chinese (who were just plain Chinese when they got here) had to go through the same disempowerment. Although because of differing philosphies, they were able to get over it faster than farangs as a whole. Their solution was: okay, that's the law, I'll get around it by choosing a spouse I can trust and letting her/him be our "front." The farang solution seems to be: okay, that's the law, I'll get around it by setting up a shaky shell company, but I do insist on marrying a por 3 educated local, who cares about his/her work ethic or that of his/her family. As mentioned though, many farangs have already dealt with these issues in the same way that Thai Chinese, Thai Indian, Thai Vietnamese, etc. locals did... they made a good choice in terms of partner and simply came to terms with the fact that one member of the 'generation one' family would not be the property/company/whatever "owner." My point was that many farangs aren't able to do this because of poor partner/spouse selection (and that's not to say that other ethnic groups don't do this at all).

[PeaceBlondie]

I think that Heng has focused on something here. The farang who come here at age 40 onward, and expect all the privileges that go with third generation landed immigrants (or tenth generation native stock), are fooling themselves, leading to discontent and whinging. If you come here after age 40 with less than a million euro in net worth, unable to be self-employed, you have elected to be a lower class immigrant, and the rules are not in your favor. But if you make some leuk-krung, they might build up a family fortune in another 40 years. We cannot walk in with 100K euro and expect to buy Thailand.

[hanibal7]

The bottom line is that property is cheap in thailand and enables you to invest more of your money in offshore savings which are not bril at the moment but can easily give 10% growth per annum on a 5 year bond.

some poster said that the house will not belong to you.there are ways to do this and isaid before if your relationship goes tits up you still come out with half( same as most countries)

The negative posters on here think that every thai will stitch you up,not true,just most lol.

After living with a thai for a few years, in rented accomodation,get to know her. then get house in her name and do a life partnership aggreement to cover you toot yai.MANY guys on here say they have known lady long time,when in fact they dont live here and still work in farangland and come here maybe 3 months+ a year and expect to know your tirac.

IMPOSSIBLE.Even a couple of mates of mine come here 3-6 months a year but still say they have been with their gf twice as long as what they have.phone calls 6 months a years doesnt mean you know her.24/7 means you know her.my long term gf thought i was very poor for 3 years,i didnt tell her what i was worth and nobody should tell until you are 1000% certain you can have a longterm relationship and total trust. I get realy pissed off with friends that come over here and boast,also lie,to thai girls and tell them how rich they are.

[Heng]

I think that Heng has focused on something here. The farang who come here at age 40 onward, and expect all the privileges that go with third generation landed immigrants (or tenth generation native stock), are fooling themselves, leading to discontent and whinging. If you come here after age 40 with less than a million euro in net worth, unable to be self-employed, you have elected to be a lower class immigrant, and the rules are not in your favor. But if you make some leuk-krung, they might build up a family fortune in another 40 years. We cannot walk in with 100K euro and expect to buy Thailand.

And it's totally understandable that many folks find that difficult to accept, although it's not just the '40 onwards' crowd. Most folks from the "want it now" generation (plenty of locals and foreigners, young and 'older' alike in this group) don't make plans or attempt to provide a foundation for the next generation.

[thaigene2]

I think that Heng has focused on something here. The farang who come here at age 40 onward, and expect all the privileges that go with third generation landed immigrants (or tenth generation native stock), are fooling themselves, leading to discontent and whinging. If you come here after age 40 with less than a million euro in net worth, unable to be self-employed, you have elected to be a lower class immigrant, and the rules are not in your favor. But if you make some leuk-krung, they might build up a family fortune in another 40 years. We cannot walk in with 100K euro and expect to buy Thailand.

True enough - and Heng - I wasn't making personal references to you - rather the socio-economic reality. Your points are good ones - many of us go through a denial stage. Then reality sets in (I reckon it takes around 5 or 6 years for that second stage to occur). The choice then becomes stay or go - sounds simple enough - yet a tough call to make.

[huggybear]

not sure of the tax structure in the Thailand, but plug the numbers into LOS and the numbers dont lie (this does not even account for the oversupply of property in LOS)

Over the course of a 30-year fixed mortgage you pay out 3x the purchase price. So... on a $100k house you pay $200k in interest. The average tax savings is 25% (in the US that is, plug in the appropriate tax rate for LOS) of that, or $50k, meaning you took a $150k loss. Doesn't make sense to me.A house is a place to live, sleep, eat, enjoy your life, raise a family. It is NOT a lottery ticket. If you want to invest in real estate, the vehicle is through rental/income properties (but not now given the glut of property in the LOS), not your own house.

The best investment always has been and always will be a business. That's where I put the money I'd otherwise be wasting on interest tribute to a bank.

O.K., this makes sense to me.

Thanks all posters for your opinions, seems it really comes down to a situational matter. I am single male so do not need to provide a house for wife, and IF kids, I surely would want to get them set up, but not the case.

So in my situation, single working stiff and after looking at all the posts I think I will continue to rent..........for now anyway.

Cheers everybody ! HB

[hanibal7]

Hope you are not too confused huggy lol.

rent def for you at the moment,but we all say that i am staying single now and please myself,but it never works that way lol.For the future though,unless you are rich,house/condo prices will still rise,based on land increase to,so just be careful how long you take to buy.

have a healthy life( the most important by far)

[thaigene2]

Hope you are not too confused huggy lol.

rent def for you at the moment,but we all say that i am staying single now and please myself,but it never works that way lol.For the future though,unless you are rich,house/condo prices will still rise,based on land increase to,so just be careful how long you take to buy.

have a healthy life( the most important by far)

True - but I know a guy who was single, bought a small condo, then got married had a couple of kids, bought a house - in wife's name - only to get separated a couple of years later. There are no easy answers..but for me too, renting is the best option - and I am also married with kids - but it still makes more sense. If I were rich it wouldn't be an issue of course - buy your wife ten houses. But I'm not. So common sense prevails for all the other answers above have dealt with.

[Naam]

And it's totally understandable that many folks find that difficult to accept, although it's not just the '40 onwards' crowd. Most folks from the "want it now" generation (plenty of locals and foreigners, young and 'older' alike in this group) don't make plans or attempt to provide a foundation for the next generation.

in my view the best foundation for the next generation is to spend -whatever the financial status allows- on their education.

[hanibal7]

I would never get married or live with someone,thai or not thai,unless i trusted 100%.Seems to be so hard for many people.I have friends who,quite frankly,have gf or wife and i wouldnt trust them to wipe my ass..Certainly wouldnt entertain spending 1 minute of my life with.They already speak with my gf about how much they have when he die,and these are the women that they trust.Most of them think they are hi so now and always want to spend hubbies money even though they co not contribute to the partnership,even cannot clean or cook.for heavens sake they deserve to be stitched up,but they will have a few months of tirac on their arm showing off to younger farang.

[GuestHouse]

And it's totally understandable that many folks find that difficult to accept, although it's not just the '40 onwards' crowd. Most folks from the "want it now" generation (plenty of locals and foreigners, young and 'older' alike in this group) don't make plans or attempt to provide a foundation for the next generation.

in my view the best foundation for the next generation is to spend -whatever the financial status allows- on their education.

Well there is always a first time.... and for the first time ever I find myself in complete agreement with Naam.