Us Demands Thailand Halt Intellectual Property Violations

[dave_boo]

For all of you posters who don't care about the need for intellectual property rights, I'd be very curious what kind of work you do.

Sell DVDs, Levis jeans and Louis Vitton handbags over E Bay.

10 free Viagra with every purchase over $100.00

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't give a straight answer to a straightforward question?

You're beating your head against the wall!

[Prakanong]

Guys (and Gals), there's more at stake here than boot-leg dvds/cds (i.e. the RIAA can go fornicate with themselves!). Currently the US is THE place where new medicines are being developed.

While socialised medicine is a good idea in my view, humans are by nature largely not altruistic. If there's no profit, there's no motivation. Try and name a drug that has been recently developed in another country. Even the little blue pill which allows so many of our older TV members to enjoy the carnal pleasures that Thailand offers was developed at the behest of an American company.

With as much hatred of the US as is slung around this forum, I don't think you'd want to antagonise a country that you're so dependant upon for such a vital resource. If it can go to war over the fact that someone tried to kill its leader's pappy (and the perceived oil it was going to harvest), than what makes you think that it can't just pick its ball up and go home. And there'd be nothing you could do about it without being a hypocrite. After all, if you insist that the US should stay out of Thailand's business, you couldn't rightly tell the US it has to share discoveries based on their spent monies.

errm I could name quite a few drugs (and vaccines) not developed in the USA - they are not the only ones with a pharma industry you know - British and Euro companies do appear in the "Big Pharma" list and the top of that list Pfizer (USA) has a very poor pipeline in fact and have a problem.

I do agree with your sentiments though

[farang prince]

For all of you posters who don't care about the need for intellectual property rights, I'd be very curious what kind of work you do.

Sell DVDs, Levis jeans and Louis Vitton handbags over E Bay.

10 free Viagra with every purchase over $100.00

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't give a straight answer to a straightforward question?

Awe shucks, ok then...OIL...Black Gold...Texas Tea!!!!

That's rich. You have the balls to criticize companies that depend on intellectual property for their livelihood and you work in the most predatory industry in existence around the world. What chutzpah.

[bultaco44]

Anyone know the percentage of money, coming to usa, that origins from franchises, licenses, patents etc.

If you do not count foreing investment, i have heard : half.

Surely it's a problem for someone.

[MengWan]

"NB: A large portion of the people who do research in the US are NOT US citizens.

I'd love to know the source for this statement.

I (modestly) am the source ...

In the Silicon Valley, I have seen in some semiconductor companies "many" Indians (from India), chinese (from Taïwan), lebanese, even some Canadians ...

In "Finances" depatments, I saw only WASPs ...

[khunandy]

That's rich. You have the balls to criticize companies that depend on intellectual property for their livelihood and you work in the most predatory industry in existence around the world. What chutzpah.

I totally agree, they are the evil empire, terrible industry. But I will take advantage of their greed and eat at the devils canteen for a few more years.

If you ever want to read a book and learn just how evil your President and his cronies are try picking up a copy of "Armed Madhouse" by Greg Palast.

It will provide you with an insite into how the Bush, Cheney, Baker and Co go about their business. But be warned, this book can only be read in small doses as it will (should) make you very mad.

Its not hard to see how your economy has headed south for the benefit of a hand full off your influential multi nationals. Everyone else can suffer but the big boys are doing just fine thank you very much.

[farang prince]

That's rich. You have the balls to criticize companies that depend on intellectual property for their livelihood and you work in the most predatory industry in existence around the world. What chutzpah.

I totally agree, they are the evil empire, terrible industry. But I will take advantage of their greed and eat at the devils canteen for a few more years.

If you ever want to read a book and learn just how evil your President and his cronies are try picking up a copy of "Armed Madhouse" by Greg Palast.

It will provide you with an insite into how the Bush, Cheney, Baker and Co go about their business. But be warned, this book can only be read in small doses as it will (should) make you very mad.

Its not hard to see how your economy has headed south for the benefit of a hand full off your influential multi nationals. Everyone else can suffer but the big boys are doing just fine thank you very much.

You mean you read? Greg Palast had his book copyrighted before it was ever printed and the first volume was sold. That's intellectual property. Are you sure you didn't steal the book?

[farang prince]

"NB: A large portion of the people who do research in the US are NOT US citizens.

I'd love to know the source for this statement.

I (modestly) am the source ...

In the Silicon Valley, I have seen in some semiconductor companies "many" Indians (from India), chinese (from Taïwan), lebanese, even some Canadians ...

In "Finances" depatments, I saw only WASPs ...

You are the "source"?

And this is based on what you have seen in Silicon Valley? How many companies have you worked for there? How "many" Indians, Chinese, Lebanese, even Canadians did you see? And how many "other" employees of Silicon Valley companies did you see?

Your statement is as hollow as if I said, "I have seen many idiots post on Thai Visa. Therefore, based on the number of stupid posts I have seen, I'm going to conclude that a 'large portion' of the people who post on Thai Visa are idiots." Hmmm...well maybe that was a bad example.

[dave_boo]

"NB: A large portion of the people who do research in the US are NOT US citizens.

I'd love to know the source for this statement.

I (modestly) am the source ...

In the Silicon Valley, I have seen in some semiconductor companies "many" Indians (from India), chinese (from Taïwan), lebanese, even some Canadians ...

In "Finances" depatments, I saw only WASPs ...

You are the "source"?

And this is based on what you have seen in Silicon Valley? How many companies have you worked for there? How "many" Indians, Chinese, Lebanese, even Canadians did you see? And how many "other" employees of Silicon Valley companies did you see?

Your statement is as hollow as if I said, "I have seen many idiots post on Thai Visa. Therefore, based on the number of stupid posts I have seen, I'm going to conclude that a 'large portion' of the people who post on Thai Visa are idiots." Hmmm...well maybe that was a bad example.

Acutally, based on what MengWan said, you could have concluded that most people on the internet are idiots.....oh wait yet another bad example.

[khunandy]

You mean you read? Greg Palast had his book copyrighted before it was ever printed and the first volume was sold. That's intellectual property. Are you sure you didn't steal the book?

Oh , now that smarts

I agree with authors, artists and hard working inventors copy writing their products, I just have a grudge against multi nationals and bullying super powers...go figure.

So have you read the book?? I would be very interested in your opinion of it if you have...

[khunandy]

You mean you read? Greg Palast had his book copyrighted before it was ever printed and the first volume was sold. That's intellectual property. Are you sure you didn't steal the book?

Oh , now that smarts

I agree with authors, artists and hard working inventors copy writing their products, I just have a grudge against multi nationals and bullying super powers...go figure.

So have you read the book?? I would be very interested in your opinion of it if you have...

Hey Farang Prince,

Why don't you (just for clarification) tell me what is hanging in your wardrobe, what is in your DVD player and what shoes you are wearing when you step out for a night.

How about those little blue pills in your bedside drawer?

Got any rip off Bob Denver Cds?

And the Farang Princess, any dodgy handbags there? Or rip off shoes?

Try to be honest now

[Scott]

Intellectual property violations are about theft and they hurt a lot of people and countries and damage potential research. I have trouble understanding how people can support it. The fact that it exists isn't the problem, per se, because it always has and probably always will. The problem is when industries are built around violating the rights of others and allowed to flourish and when gov'ts do nothing to stop it--that is the problem.

Whether you or I buy a counterfiet DVD is a little consequence. I certainly prefer the original, but I don't 'check' to see if it's counterfiet or not. The fact that businesses can operate and make a lot of money, basically by stealing from others is of greater concern and the impact is greater.

[khunandy]

For all of you posters who don't care about the need for intellectual property rights, I'd be very curious what kind of work you do.

Sell DVDs, Levis jeans and Louis Vitton handbags over E Bay.

10 free Viagra with every purchase over $100.00

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't give a straight answer to a straightforward question?

Backatchya Farang Prince..checked that wardrobe yet??

[dkstoney]

US trade figures with Thailand for 2008 (in millions)

Exports Imports Balance

TOTAL 8,444.9 22,752.9 -14,308.0

With this kind of trade with the US, I really don't think that Thailand is going to want to tell them to F*** Off as yaketyak has suggested. Nearly $23 billion of money coming directly into Thailand would be a huge loss. They already screwed themselves out of preferred trading status, gone down a notch, and about to go down one more. If they want, I suppose they could solely buy poisoned and shoddy products from China who, by the way, don't care about Thai market protections.

[andy1308]

On the subject of copyright infringements, I would like to add my own experiences. My company here in Bangkok is the only company with a license to use content (stories, pictures, etc) from a magazine in the U.S within Thailand. We have invested a lot of time and money in this, so when we see some of the more (so-called) professional publishers translating these stories and claiming them as their own it's reall, really frustrating and ultimately damaging to our business. I know some of you will argue about the lack of professionalism in the media here but ....

What might be interesting for some of you is that there have been no occasions during the last three years where a foreign publishers has taken a Thai publisher to court for such an infringement. Watch out for something very soon.

[khunandy]

US trade figures with Thailand for 2008 (in millions)

Exports Imports Balance

TOTAL 8,444.9 22,752.9 -14,308.0

With this kind of trade with the US, I really don't think that Thailand is going to want to tell them to F*** Off as yaketyak has suggested. Nearly $23 billion of money coming directly into Thailand would be a huge loss. They already screwed themselves out of preferred trading status, gone down a notch, and about to go down one more. If they want, I suppose they could solely buy poisoned and shoddy products from China who, by the way, don't care about Thai market protections.

Interesting, does anybody know the balance of trade figures between the U.S and China, Mexico and Canada?

The country suffers but the multi nationals dont because thats where they have located the production facilities, while kicking the home boys off the jobs. Or am I mistaken?

Edited April 9, 2008 by khunandy

[farang prince]

For all of you posters who don't care about the need for intellectual property rights, I'd be very curious what kind of work you do.

Sell DVDs, Levis jeans and Louis Vitton handbags over E Bay.

10 free Viagra with every purchase over $100.00

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't give a straight answer to a straightforward question?

Backatchya Farang Prince..checked that wardrobe yet??

I'm on the road right now Andy. But I'll be home this weekend and I'll run through the cd's, dvd's and closets. I can tell you that I don't have any pirated cd's. All original. But I'll see if the Farang Princess has some leftover pirated dvd's and video tapes from her days in Bangkok. As far as clothes go, my wardrobe is very boring...I'm not brand conscious with my civvy clothes...just cheap and comfortable. And my work clothes are company issue -- no knock-offs there. I'll let you know this weekend if the Princess has some skeletons in her closet.

[TopDogger]

What might be interesting for some of you is that there have been no occasions during the last three years where a foreign publishers has taken a Thai publisher to court for such an infringement. Watch out for something very soon.

I hope you have deep pockets, wondered why no one else has bothered?

[TopDogger]

The American government has every right to pursue this issue and to try to rationalize that they don't just because you hate Americans just doesn't cut it.

Any everyone who doesn't reside in the US has the right not to give a flying fuk.

[khunandy]

For all of you posters who don't care about the need for intellectual property rights, I'd be very curious what kind of work you do.

Sell DVDs, Levis jeans and Louis Vitton handbags over E Bay.

10 free Viagra with every purchase over $100.00

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't give a straight answer to a straightforward question?

Backatchya Farang Prince..checked that wardrobe yet??

I'm on the road right now Andy. But I'll be home this weekend and I'll run through the cd's, dvd's and closets. I can tell you that I don't have any pirated cd's. All original. But I'll see if the Farang Princess has some leftover pirated dvd's and video tapes from her days in Bangkok. As far as clothes go, my wardrobe is very boring...I'm not brand conscious with my civvy clothes...just cheap and comfortable. And my work clothes are company issue -- no knock-offs there. I'll let you know this weekend if the Princess has some skeletons in her closet.

Safe travels

[Plus]

At least in IT sector a large portion of the people are not US citizens. I don't know about pharma.

What is the percentage of non-US citizens in the IT sector in the United States? And what is the source of your information? Simple questions Plus.

Exact data is hard to come by.

There are several studies based on old NSCG reports. This on is as good as any other:

Foreign scholars in US science

If you scroll to table one iyou would find that in 1990 in computer sciences 28% were foreigners and it was ten percent increase in a decade since 1980, and the process hasn't slowed down since then. I'd venture to say that 40-50% of staff are foreigners now.

[MengWan]

You are the "source"?

And this is based on what you have seen in Silicon Valley? How many companies have you worked for there? How "many" Indians, Chinese, Lebanese, even Canadians did you see? And how many "other" employees of Silicon Valley companies did you see?

Your statement is as hollow as if I said, "I have seen many idiots post on Thai Visa. Therefore, based on the number of stupid posts I have seen, I'm going to conclude that a 'large portion' of the people who post on Thai Visa are idiots." Hmmm...well maybe that was a bad example.

I see who's "upset" here ...

I can be a little nothing but many years of experience is enough for me to know what I know, and I know that a lot of R&D workers in the US are NOT US citizens !

I even saw demonstrations by angry people protesting this fact, may be they had some wrong statistics too ...

I know too that more and more of the R&D done by US firms is done abroad, outside of the US, in countries like Taiwan, India etc ...

But I suppose it is disinformation, spread all over the world by "idiots" ?

Think as you wish, but stay calm ... and polite, OK ?

[Prakanong]

You are the "source"?

And this is based on what you have seen in Silicon Valley? How many companies have you worked for there? How "many" Indians, Chinese, Lebanese, even Canadians did you see? And how many "other" employees of Silicon Valley companies did you see?

Your statement is as hollow as if I said, "I have seen many idiots post on Thai Visa. Therefore, based on the number of stupid posts I have seen, I'm going to conclude that a 'large portion' of the people who post on Thai Visa are idiots." Hmmm...well maybe that was a bad example.

I see who's "upset" here ...

I can be a little nothing but many years of experience is enough for me to know what I know, and I know that a lot of R&D workers in the US are NOT US citizens !

I even saw demonstrations by angry people protesting this fact, may be they had some wrong statistics too ...

I know too that more and more of the R&D done by US firms is done abroad, outside of the US, in countries like Taiwan, India etc ...

But I suppose it is disinformation, spread all over the world by "idiots" ?

Think as you wish, but stay calm ... and polite, OK ?

Of course a lot of R&D workers in the USA are not born and bred there - I know from my industry which is Pharma and from IT where I work.

The same is true elsewhere in the pharma industry such as the UK and Europe too - the majority are from local locations but in the quest for the best global talent companies are country and colour blind and rightly so.

I know for a fact that more and more R&D wil be moved from north America and northern Europe in the pharma industry both now and in the future. An example of this is GSK moving all of there R&D in Neuro to China and want to employ 1000-1200 PHd's between now and 2010-11 at the site.

Why is this?

- not enough talent in the west to the same education and calibre

- you can get 3 for 1 in China as proved by Cisco

This trend will only accelerate in the future too - just look at where the clusters of pharma R&D and other business are developing - down from India, through Singapore and up to China taking in Taiwan too.

Just as Pharma is a strategic industry for USA. UK, France etc it is becoming so for Asia.

How long before IT goes the same way - 3 million IT workers in Bangalore alone - ever been there to electric City and on the campus of the likes of WIPRO - amazing - we in the west are in comparitive decline.

[andy1308]

What might be interesting for some of you is that there have been no occasions during the last three years where a foreign publishers has taken a Thai publisher to court for such an infringement. Watch out for something very soon.

I hope you have deep pockets, wondered why no one else has bothered?

The penalties, certainly so far as copyright infringements for commercial gain in the media are concerned, are small. It's a maximum of 800,000 baht and up to four years in jail per incident - as long as the copyright holder can prove damage has been caused by the infringement. And I suspect many Thai publishers would argue that their translation and publication of an original English story actually makes a positive impact as it gives the story to Thai readers who would not be reading the original English story anyway!

[geriatrickid]

I know for a fact that more and more R&D wil be moved from north America and northern Europe in the pharma industry both now and in the future. An example of this is GSK moving all of there R&D in Neuro to China and want to employ 1000-1200 PHd's between now and 2010-11 at the site.

Why is this?

- not enough talent in the west to the same education and calibre

- you can get 3 for 1 in China as proved by Cisco

...... - amazing - we in the west are in comparitive decline.

Disagree with you on the pharma. Technically you are correct but that is in respect to clinical trials. It will not apply to proprietary innovative research. Here's why;

1. Clinical trials in the EU and North America are hampered by a lack of subjects and qualified CROs. Move it to India and China where the ethical oversight is not the same and you can get alot done very cheaply. Lots of impoverished people or political / criminal prisoners to draw upon. if there are ADRs or fatalities, it's nothing.

2. innovative research is funded by the big 3; Government, Universities and Pharma co's.

i) Governments in the west won't be contributing to foreign activities anytime soon. The goal of funding is to promote the donor nation's intellectual capital.

ii) Unis fund to attract talent and of course to gain revenue from patents.

iii) Pharma co's are fed up with the intellectual espionage employed by China and will not allow important R&D to go there.

US lawmakers were up in arms a decade ago when Canada's federal and Quebec provincial government poured millions into pharma R&D subsidies to the private sector and unis.. They were terrified of job losses, intellectual drain etc. End result is that Quebec does the donkey work for the R&D (labour intensive parts, clinical trials) while the true intellectual work stays in mass or cali.

remember too that the favourable tax credits in the EU and North America are tied to local R&D investment.

The west is not true decline for the simple reason that the brain drain from other countries compensates. The kind of PhD that can make millions from an innovative discovery would rather live in the Boston, USA than in Bunghole, China.

[Prakanong]

GK - the pharma's are moving innovative research right now as in the one case I point to above - others are doing the same or are looking to - many opened sites already in India and China

As for Clinical trials being run to any kless standards in say India - yes there have been cases but these are the minority and should and have been highlighted.

To getc a drug or vaccine through the regulatory procedure now the trials have to be conducted using GCP and to ICH standards - these trials and the data are audited the same if the are done in India or the USA/UK - I have just been working with colleagues who have went through audit in India and we have them in most Asian countries most years - internal and/or FDA audits.

PS political and criminal prisoners can not be used in a drug trial as you well know according to GCP

I accept the points about IP and China etc but I can see what is happening and do work in this area - in fact my MBA dissertation was going to be about something like this and China but was told not to touch it due to the sensitivity of the issue.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Prakanong

[Plus]

i) Governments in the west won't be contributing to foreign activities anytime soon. The goal of funding is to promote the donor nation's intellectual capital.

They just need drugs for their population and so hire pharma companies to do research for them. The papers on cost/benefit analysis I've seen do not account for any intellectual capital at all. I don't think they care very much where the research takes place and who are the guinea pigs.

[dominique355]

I think Thailand -as others- should ask the US to stop stealing "IP" first !

Stop to sell "Californian Champagne", US-made "Chablis", even stop calling "pepperoni" something not coming from Italy ...

This is the first step, the second would be to rename the BERLINs, PARISs, ROMEs and copycat-named towns of the US with names they find themselves !

Maybe find an amerindian name for them ... like Sioux-City, Navajoville and like !

I don't see the US is in any position to give lessons to anyone on this matter ...

You have got to be kidding - none of those ideas were copyrighted, the technology was known for centuries, and even if it was patented, patents run out, and on champaign (and other wines) as well as pepperoni, the patent would have expired about two hundred years ago. Additionally, I don't believe many cities have copyrighted their names. Moreover, the names you mentioned were not developed by one person or company. In short, your examples do not hold water.

It's probably time to set some misconceptions right. Names such as "Champagne", "Parma Ham" "Cognac" etc are not protected under any national Copyright Protection Act or Universal Copyright Conventions, but under a national "Appellations of Origin" act. The Champagne method of making sparkling wine is not protected under a Patent Act, but under a national legislation for the protection of Appellations of Origin. If e.g. France wants to protect "Champagne", is has it's own laws and then negotiates a bilateral treaty with other nations under which the respective appellations of origin and Indications of Source are protected.

It is true that the USA have little to no respect for geographical indications and allows manufacturers to deceive its customers by using foreign geographical names although the products have nothing to do with that country. But that's more an issue for the national Unfair Competition Act, and not for the international protection of Intellectual Property.

Perhaps we should also distinguish between Patent Protection and Copyright Protection. In simple terms:

- A patent protects a technical invention, which is novel and not obvious

- The Copyright Act protects works of Art.

And then there are Trademarks. That's a "name" given to a product (or a service) offered by one single manufacturer and serves to distinguish the origin of a product (or service) from a specific company.

Patents have a limited duration of protection, usually 20 years. The copyright protection usually lasts 50 or 70 years after the death of the author. Trademarks have no limitation of their period of protection and they can be renewed for an indefinite number of periods (of usually 10 years).

Behind all these Intellectual Properties is usually the investment of a person or a company, and the IP right serves as a protection of the investment.

Education is all and unfortunately here in Thailand, the education in this field is rather, let's say fragmentary. Even at the highest level, such as the minister of health, who seems to believe that compulsory licensing is a national right. Well, it is not, Thailand having signed WTO and the TRIPS part of it.

Violation of IP rights can thus be compared to theft and, if not prosecuted, will lead to a reduction of investment and finally to a weaker economy. Thailand will only hurt itself if it does not enforce the IP rights; maybe to today or tomorrow, but certainly in the long run.

[Scott]

Thanks Dominique. You are expressing my sentiments very well and clearly.

It's not about some sense of nationality--not exactly about morality either, it's just not in their best interest.

[chanman]

- The Copyright Act protects works of Art.

Copyright applies to a lot more than works or art.