The 'f' Word

[Ijustwannateach]

Something I find offensive to a great degree on Internet forums about Thailand and in writing on Thailand in general is this continuing reference to the fatness of _insert_group_to_be_insulted_here_. Usually comments are made in the genre of "it's disgusting how those fat Germans/queers/old men/farang women hang out with those young, slim, cutey beauties," etc., etc.

I find these comments hypocritical, immature, and ignorant to a high degree, assuming a number of contradictory things about the [fat-hating] speaker's position in Thailand and the position of the overweight visitor/resident in Thailand. I think these comments are also more insensitive among gay men, who have to worry about their appearance a lot more typically than straight men.

Assumption #1: FAT PEOPLE ARE UNDESIRABLE COMPARED TO THE SPEAKER

Contradictory to the assumptions of many immature individuals, larger (and older) persons are desired by a number of young men not only in Asia but also other countries of the world. There are whole bars devoted to this pursuit in the main cities of Japan [not to mention about half of the gay mags], and any larger person who's lived in Asia any length of time will have his admirers (often more than he can peacefully cope with!) Personally speaking, I've dated guys in every country I've ever lived in who had appreciation for, let us say, a man with something to him. I wouldn't have it any other way- I won't date guys I'm not sure are attracted to me (a good way to tell: check out his movie collection or porn, if any- lots of big guys? You know he's for real- one of the last guys I dated would go to any John Goodman movie that came out).

So, not only is the fat person NOT undesirable to this larg-ish group of chubby-chasing people (sorry !), but they wouldn't give a second look to some skinny, middle-sized pretender.

Assumption #2: FAT PEOPLE MUST BE PAYING- HOW ELSE COULD THEY GET ANY?

Having demonstrated that we DO have a bit of a market, I hope it's obvious how this assumption is wrong. However, it displays a bit of additional arrogance and hubris on the part of the speaker- who seems to think that his being slender means he WON'T pay for sex- a common mistake on the part of those without much experience here. "I'm such a handsum handsum man that even the hookers won't charge me." This may happen- but very, very rarely.

I got very angry reading Cleo Odzer's book about prostitution in Patpong, for instance, because she seemed to imply that something was so "wrong" about the relative differential in beauty [judged by her] between the tourists and bargirls she saw, while she was engaged in the very same types of behavior [but it was "ok," because she was slim, blond and "beautiful."]

Assumption #3: FAT PEOPLE ARE INHERENTLY UNDESIRABLE AND THEREFORE DISGUSTING

Not to lots of folks! However, this is the feeling that comes through many posts referring to the weight of people. Aside from lacking the simple maturity of the realization that "there's someone for everyone" [and thank god for that], this is offensive and wrong. I think it comes from being hypnotized by Hollywood's message about what people should "look like" in movies and commercials. Ever noticed how the people Thai folks think are attractive (the "types" in movies that get repeated over and over) don't match with the kind of Thais that farang like? Ever wonder about how this might work in reverse? If not, perhaps you need a bit of deprogramming from Hollywood.

Anyway, just a starting point for discussion, and if nothing else, perhaps I'll have given some folks a reason to think twice before using "fat" as a generically negative classification.

Disclaimer: I'm a pretty big guy- tall, and I definitely qualify as fat, though I'm still fit enough to jog for half an hour or cycle a fair distance. Have always been, no matter how much exercise I did or how I tried to control my diet. I don't have trouble fitting into Thai chairs, but I'd never be able to fit into Thai clothes!

Frankly, my ex-bf always wished I was much bigger!

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

IJWT...

I'm a GREAT believer in "Whatever floats your boat...!"

There IS someone for everyone.. and if we all liked the same thing.. life would be OH-so boring!

I was brought up to accept whatever attractions (and fantasies) the other person had, was absolutely ok... and NOT to be judge and jury. Consequently, you cannot shock me...!

Several years ago, my bf (Max) had a friend come and stay for a week. The friend was 21, sexy, a VERY cute and handsome young guy (by any American Gay standards) who could probably have just about anyone he laid eyes on!

We all went out together, and during the evening, I noticed that Mr Friend was eyeing up a VERY large man - probably 250lb, and about 40, who was sat down chatting... Mr Friend was too shy to go over and talk to him, so Max said "You want a date..? I'll arrange it!".. and promptly went over and did the match-making thing. Mr Friend was as happy as a clam for the rest of the week!

I tend to like quite fem and "pretty/beautiful" guys.. but not really LadyBoys/Katoey... (although, having said that, I've never actually dated one..!) I've dated guys that others wouldn't look twice at.. OR would actively avoid (because they weren't their type) then ask me.. "Why are you with HIM... he looks like a girl??" as if there was something inherently wrong with that.

My answer is "Because I find them attractive.... Go find your own!"

Anyway, I don't think there's been a post on this Board in ThaiVisa about "Fat" issues... not that I can find anyway.!

Good luck to you...!

ChrisP.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, Chris- just been wanting to post something like that for awhile. I think there IS a stereotype operating here of the "fat farang and his hired boy"- in THIS fat farang's case, at least, the boys are going after me! Hurrah!

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

not that it has much to do with this particular area of the forum, but on a related note:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17644

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

I was in relatively good shape when I came to Thailand, I had a non-frontal nud_e in my gay.com profile, if that tells you anything.

Anyway, I am now fully forty pounds heavier and my Thai wants me even heavier. I of course in my intermost thoughts feel he wants me bigger so I will be unatrractive to other Thais, when in reality, he just may be honest about the issue.

In addition to chubby chasers, there are a group of guys who really like older, much older and 'coffin candidates' as well. I prefer younger, so I don't understand it, but "different strokes".

Fat bashing is like American bashing. It is bigotry at its worst. How one human can condem all the people in one nation for alleged wrongs is beyond me. Fat people are not necessarily glutonous just because they are fat. Just like all gay people aren't sex crazed or out to "make" straight guys, etc. etc. etc.

Generalities are dangerous, unfair and flatly wrong. When we were kids we were taught to "never say never" and the same rationale applies to referring to "All" or "every" or bashing a people in general.

It is basic psychology that one puts others 'down" inorder to "lift" yourself in the process. Work on lifting yourself by "your own bootstraps" and leave others out of the process, because the former works and the latter doesn't.

[Ice Treasure]

I posted this elsewhere, and I want it clearly understood that it is not talking about obesity per se., but rather the contradictions inherent in Political Correctness, as applied in the west.

My bf asks me about weight gain every few days, and is always pleased if I have added a pound or two.

************************************************

Recently I read the following:

"The major problem we face with health in general is Political Correctness, in that we are restricted, as health professionals, to saying, in a pre-employment medical check, THE APPLICANT DEMONSTRATES AN ELEVATED BODY MASS INDEX COUPLED WITH A SOMEWHAT LOWER THAN AVERAGE EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT AND A PRIMARILY SEDENTARY LIFESTYLE when what we want to say is that he is fat, stupid and lazy.

If people had a little more in your face honesty presented to them, they may find that they dislike being referred to as fat, stupid and lazy and decide to do something for themselves to change what they are; rather than confront what honest people say they are.

My view is that the first step to overcoming your personal physical issues, is to take charge of them.

[ProThaiExpat]

I am reminded of the day I sat in a physicians examining room in Los Angeles in the prime of my conditioning, as I was single and in the "body market" in a body fixated city. I had worked with a trainer for at least six months and was quite happy with how I looked in the mirror with my clothes off.

Upon completion of my examination and giving me whatever medical advice that was called for at the time, the physician, as a parting shot, as he left the room said "By the way, you could lose some weight". I was dumfounded and replied "Why do you say I am overweight" He replied "When you are sitting and you have any skin folds at our waist, your overweight".

I wonder how many posters can meet this test of correct body weight?

[PeaceBlondie]

Today, as we were packing for our second annual "honeymoon" to Phuket, I was standing on the scale and complaining that it read more than 200 pounds. Boyfriend replied, "I don't care. You were an elephant when I met you."

[Ice Treasure]

Doesn't it just warm the cocles of your heart.

Knew a guy years ago whose boyfriend made an animals name from his attributes.

Most referred to being fat, sick, ugly.

Quite special.

[Ijustwannateach]

Edited in the interests of harmony and better communication.

IT, you've still got this message in a quotation in your message- up to you to get rid of that copy.

[Skipton]

When you are sitting and you have any skin folds at our waist, your overweight".

Really? Anyway so thats me at the gym five days a week from now, like I needed another reason!

[Ice Treasure]

Done

Now IJWT I know you didn't mean that.

The nickname given to him was POSSUM, Poor Old Sick Stupid Ugly Man..

We all agreed it was accurate and the owner of the sobriquet most of all. The boyfriend was a huge delight to all of their friends when it became known.

He was poor, he was old, he was sick, he needed an extra "S", so stupid fitted, Ugly, definitely, Man, also, quite definite.

Now I'm not sure what it was, but whatever it was, it was wrong for you to read anything but enormous shared joy and love between those two. It was a treasure and a pleasure to be any where within hearing and seeing distance of them. I count myself honoured to have been part of their lives for all these years.

Ice

[Ijustwannateach]

I posted this elsewhere, and I want it clearly understood that it is not talking about obesity per se., but rather the contradictions inherent in Political Correctness, as applied in the west.

My bf asks me about weight gain every few days, and is always pleased if I have added a pound or two.

************************************************

Recently I read the following:

"The major problem we face with health in general is Political Correctness, in that we are restricted, as health professionals, to saying, in a pre-employment medical check, THE APPLICANT DEMONSTRATES AN ELEVATED BODY MASS INDEX COUPLED WITH A SOMEWHAT LOWER THAN AVERAGE EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT AND A PRIMARILY SEDENTARY LIFESTYLE when what we want to say is that he is fat, stupid and lazy.

If people had a little more in your face honesty presented to them, they may find that they dislike being referred to as fat, stupid and lazy and decide to do something for themselves to change what they are; rather than confront what honest people say they are.

My view is that the first step to overcoming your personal physical issues, is to take charge of them.

To clarify, my reply was to this post!

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Although it is possible, looking back, that you don't share the opinion of the article you quote? Sometimes it's hard to tell with your messages, IT- if you are DISagreeing with that article, you should probably state it fairly plainly.

"Steven"

[Ice Treasure]

I posted this elsewhere, and I want it clearly understood that it is not talking about obesity per se., but rather the contradictions inherent in Political Correctness, as applied in the west.

My bf asks me about weight gain every few days, and is always pleased if I have added a pound or two.

Now which bit of that didn't you understand.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think it was the part where you indicate fairly clearly if you agree with the opinions in the article you posted or not.

Personally whether someone calls me fat or some string of PC words is not the issue; however, the negative attitude towards heavy people ("fat stupid lazy") in that article is provocative, to say the least.

"Steven"

Well, IT has convinced me in a PM that he was not trying to be insulting to heavy/fat people, so it seems that there was a communication problem.

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

In the past couple of years, having watched a lot of animal planet and National Geogrphic Specials on animal behaviour, I am struck the fact that humans reflect many of the characteristics found in other animals.

One of those, it seems to me, is based on natural selection. The male, in most animal species, who is successful in mating, has "displayed" to the female. This takes on the form of beauty, dominence, strength, etc.

Are we not demonstrating our "animal" nature when we naturally select or find more attractive, those of us who are beautiful, strong, healthy, etc.

Civilization, or perhaps education, allows us to move away from being controlled by our animal instincts, but alas, they are still there. Thus, educated and civilized people in society are expected to treat gay people with respec,t even though they may find their mating abhorrent or distasteful. Likewise, I think, intelligent and civilized people treat ugly, fat, old or other "undesireables" in the animal kingdom with respect and civility, ie. "politically correct", thus demonstrating our advanced evolution. Some of our specie, whether it be by genetics or lack of opportunity, do not demonstrate civilized or intelligent attitudes towards these who do not have "superficially desireable features" which is sad, but natural in our species.

[ChrisP]

My Thai bf has an animal name for me now, too...

"Goldfish.."

(Because of my short memory span...!)

So cute, I have to laff.

ChrisP