Hostility And Misinformation Towards "alternative Medcine'

[awakened]

All comments appreciated even though they may be wounding

Ok. It would have been helpful if the originator of these slides could defend his work. I'll do my ignorant best.

Of the two slides with crystals, you called one an 'artifact' - a misrepresentation of tissue structures seen in medical images. I checked with a number of sites and his description that 'These crystals are shaped like knives' seems to be correct. The image does not at first glance look like a knife but is yellowish in colour which is consistent with uric acid crystals. You can see it is more pointed than round. So why does it look misshapen? If you look more closely the crystal appears to be under another RBC which I believe is distorting the image. There are very few images of uric acid crystals online to compare it to.

You said 'Cholesterol is not a crystal'. The slide did not say it was. What it did say was that cholesterol crystallizes when the body is acidic. This image taken from the New England Journal of Medicine shows Cholesterol Crystals in relation to Rheumatoid Arthritis and other symptoms... http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/333/20/1325

'Uric acid crystal occur in joints not blood', which probably explains why I did not see such a crystal in my blood sample. The blood was extracted from the tip of my finger and not my joints.

'Pulsating parasite'. Difficult one. It was a few years ago and I don't have an image nor was there a decent match on the the site I found. All I can do is try to describe what I saw. In the middle of the cell there was a small circular object? about 1/20th the size of the cell, within which was a speck that seemed to be pulsing at a regular frequency. When I asked, the response was it's a parasite. Having never seen a parasite I wouldn't know if they shake, rattle or roll. There were about 15% of cells in my blood sample affected.

'the slide just demonstrates the difference between a thick and a thin blood smear.'

Something the naturopath was well aware of as I recall and why can't it demonstrate degeneration as the author suggests? I didn't get the impression the practitioner, who is a personal friend, was so desperate to pick my pocket that he deliberately smeared the slide.

Policythemia: (a disorder where HCT is greater than

55% increasing the viscosity of blood , and results in

sluggish circulation, hypertension , thrombosis , or

hemorrhage) divided into primary and secondary

policythemia . and policythemia vera .

I do not know what HCT is but my hands were cold when the blood was taken and I know I don't drink enough water. Add tension due to stress and low BP due to depression might this produce sluggish circulation?

The interpretation on the dark field slides has been made, presumably, by those looking at slides like this, day in, day out. If allopathy is using a different method to view blood, are both camps seeing the same thing? Since they also have different ideas about health might they also come to different conclusions?

Naturopaths believe balancing the PH will dissolve the crystals and hence cure the joint pain. Since we know (at least are told) you can dissolve stones or even heavy metals through diet, it sounds plausible to me.

'Please do not make a FALSE statement'

If mainstream medicine welcomes alternatives, please explain why there are so many examples of doctors making it clear in books, in interviews and on websites, that they are not allowed to suggest alternatives on pain of sanction? If the following experience is true, this is unconscionable... http://www.whale.to/v/horwin1.html

I re-post another quote which doesn't seem to gel with your observation...

'The medical monopoly or medical trust, euphemistically called the American Medical Association, is not merely the meanest monopoly ever organized, but the most arrogant, dangerous and despotic organization which ever managed a free people in this or any other age. Any and all methods of healing the sick by means of safe, simple and natural remedies are sure to be assailed and denounced by the arrogant leaders of the AMA doctors' trust as fakes, frauds and humbugs. Every practitioner of the healing art who does not ally himself with the medical trust is denounced as a 'dangerous quack' and impostor by the predatory trust doctors. Every sanatorium who attempts to restore the sick to a state of health by natural means without resort to the knife or poisonous drugs, disease imparting serums, deadly toxins or vaccines, is at once pounced upon by these medical tyrants and fanatics, bitterly denounced, vilified and persecuted to the fullest extent.'

- J.W Hodge, M.D.

Now why is this man making such a startling statement? He's one of yours isn't he?

I understand advances in treatments are made all the time. Sorry to press the point but where are the cures?

I recall reading about scurvy. It wasn't until 50 years after it had been shown that lemons solved the problem of scurvy on board ships that the British Admiralty did anything about it. Unfortunately, I don't have 50 years to wait until mainstream medicine responds.

FBN. You seem to have a reasonable attitude. Tell me. Did you agree with ANY of the slides?

[Crushdepth]

f mainstream medicine welcomes alternatives, please explain why there are so many examples of doctors making it clear in books, in interviews and on websites, that they are not allowed to suggest alternatives on pain of sanction?

In my experience doctors frequently suggest non-chemical therapies. But doctors can get sued for malpractice and deregistered if they screw up. That's a pretty big incentive not to suggest treatments that may may do harm, or just not work. Do you think it would be responsible for a doctor to (say) inject people with exotic plant extracts with no real knowledge of what the consequences might be?

[Sheryl]

While I certainly agree that there are useful and effective thinsg to be found within the very large, diverse collection of what is called "alternative" medicine, Awakened, the "acidity" stuff is not one of them.

The blood and cells of the human body require a very narrow pH range to fuinction - between 7.35 to 7.45 (i.e. very mildly alkalotic). A pH below 7.35 is extermely dangerous and one below 7.0 - which is what it would have to be to qualify as "acidic" -- is not compatible with life.

The idea that diseases are occurring as a result of the blood or tissues being acidic is nonsense, as is the idea that any food will make your body more or less acidic. The body has very well developed mecahnisms for regulated its acid-base balance. These do not break down easily and when they do, it is usually as a result of a life-threatening situation.

The kidneys play a major role in maintaining the right pH; the lungs also contribute (because the exhalation of carbon dioxide rids the body of carbonic acid).

It is possible to alter the pH of intestinal fluids and urine through diet, but this does not mean that any change has occurred in the body's overall pH. It hasn't.

Just because something is "alternative medicine" doesn't make it necessarily wrong, but it also doesn't make it necessarily right. Furthermore, the term "alternative" encompasses a huge range of unrelated things, from homeopathy to accupuncture to "psychic surgery" to Chinese herbal medicine to faith healing to you name it. These are all quite different from each other and on many points thoroughly disagree with each other.

And then there is just plain quackery, which unfortunately gets labelled asd "alternative medicine" right alonmg with the afore mentioned, even though there is a world of difference between it and centuries-old schools of traditional medical practice. (I'm not implying that all of the latter are right...but they are more likely to contain valid treatments than things somebody has simply made up lately on the internet. And they do have rules and underlying principles governing how they are to be used and applied, although plenty of peopkle play fast and loose with those.)

A good rule of thumb: anything that provides a very simplistic explanation for all illness, or all aging, or a very wide range of diverse health problems, is almost certainly trash. The human body, health and disease, are not that simple.

[mezcal]

Hi

Very interesting thread, but I really don't understand why the allophatic and the complementary medicine are viewed as incompatible.

If I have a broken leg I won't go to a spiritual healer and if I have an emotional problem which affects my digestion and blood pressure I certainly won't take anti depressants or other pills, but I will go to somebody who understands the real source of my problems.

Extremes are never healthy paths to walk. To rely completely on one or the other is harmful in my opinion.

As somebody said before, the human being is a multidimensional being and not to be reduced to a mere assembly of cells.

I think the real 'fight' here is not between allophatic and complementary medicine but between people who believe they are just skin and bones, who believe that nothing is real which can not be proved by science and people who believe there is more than the eye can see and science can explain.

Ironically, those who profess to be strictly scientific and dismiss spirituality (ok, I said it...) as BS are not scientific at all, because they don't enquire every possibility out there. They are the ones who blindly believe in science.

How can science even start to 'prove' higher states of consciousness? or love? Just electric stimuli to certain parts of the brain?? please, don't make me laugh!

back to the point again: One view doesn't have to exclude the other. Each side has to acknowledge their strenghts and limitations and finally learn to work togheter. Amazing things will come from that and I'm optimistic for the future.

Here a link for those who some food for their minds ;-)

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/04/2...lber/print.html

enjoy

[geriatrickid]

Perhaps the issue may be one of human contact. My understanding is that when it comes to patient-provider time, the "alternative" providers can and do spend more time with patients listening. When one is stressed out from a sickness real or imagined, just having someone there that cares and will listen can work wonders. I'm lucky to have an old GP that takes the time to listen to me. When I was a kid, the nurses and doctors would give you a friendly hug or pat on the head. Today,we live in an era where such gestures can be taken out of context and where the providers themselves have not learnt skill of respecting a patient's dignity and emotional needs. What is needed in some cases is a human being not a robot in a white coat.

Also there's a human nature factor at work. The old hands at frontline care will tell you that the best course of action is often plain old common sense, TLC, rest, sensible nutrition, exercise and non intervention. And yet we don't listen, demanding antibiotics for colds etc and then cursing modern medicine, saying it doesn't work. We want that miracle cure, that pill or potion that will make us "well" without investing the time and effort. The first step in healing ourselves starts with our own mental approach to it.

[awakened]

While I certainly agree that there are useful and effective thinsg to be found within the very large, diverse collection of what is called "alternative" medicine, Awakened, the "acidity" stuff is not one of them.

So I can stop testing my pee then?

Do you naysayers know how many dam_n years I have been trying to recover from stress? How many times I have come to Allopathic medicine seeking help and walked away disappointed? 20 frustrating years. 20 years since my daughter was given the last rites and both parents cracked.

How about sharing some of the useful things? I'm getting to the point where I'm just about to go slash my wrists because if this keeps up all doors will soon be SHUT. It's incredibly frustrating to be told 'Naw, load of codswallop' to every suggestion made. Sick people need HOPE. You guys and gals keep taking it away and we might as well all go home.

Put your dam_n EGOs away for a minute and show a little compassion. Not just for me but for others who are are being let down.

Now that I've got that off my chest...

This thread is kind of wandering off track now.

Sorry about that. Total lack of discipline from an ex-military man.

But with reference to the original post, it is hardly fair to raise the spectre of 'hostility' towards alternative medicine without aknowledging the blatant hostility of the alternative medicine crowd to conventional medicine, aka 'big pharma'.

Very true. But I got there first. let them start their own thread.

No. No. You are right. I am just as guilty. Particularly with Big Pharma. What's the latest stat? The top 5 pharmaceutical countries in the world have a greater revenue than the whole of Africa. Don't you think there is something wrong with that? When major profit-driven corporations are indistinguishable from government as they are in the U.S. then what is motivating them? Money? Politics? Or Patients?

I have been involved in business and met some very savvy men. I have also met, in technology, many highly educated and tech whizzes. One thing I found was that more often than not a man with an IQ of 140+ was being managed by a man with an IQ of 100. (Mine's off the scale by the way ). Why do I say this? It is clear that in medicine there are some very fine minds. The level of science is astonishing. They can conduct double blind trials to their hearts content but IMO they are being misled by men with an IQ of 100 who don't give a rat's about trials. They just want to see that nothing affects the bottom line and they want to WIN.

America has become a great economy through business. The American does not really worship God, his number one God is The Businessman. American corporations dominate the globe for one main reason. They HATE losing and they love to get one over on the competition. You can hear it on Bloomberg on the credits. 'Competition is a SIN.'

The defenders of orthodoxy do a first class job. They point out all the great science but I wonder if they are not able to cure because of the science. Medical reductionism and a symptom-based approach has created fantastic specialists in the many fields who are learning all the time and yet they seem to be getting further and further away from being able to heal.

I am sure that with reference to cancer or heart disease, you could put an Indian Ayurvedic man, standing on one leg, clutching a 400 yr old papyrus containing the daftest sounding remedies up against the latest heart or cancer specialist and the Guru with a few herbs and tonics will have better outcomes with his patients. All for $800, give or take a rupee. Not a bleeping machine in sight. I don't know this for sure but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

The more the scientists learn, the more the stupid and backward the guru appears and the more they will mock him for his methods. They fail to see that he is sanguine about it. He just gets on with the job. Perhaps there will come a time when the scientists say. Ok. I give up. What do you think? The human body is incredibly complex. It must be otherwise we would have cracked its secrets years ago.

I have noticed and maybe it's just me, that every time one side or the other starts to put a decent thread together someone on the opposing team throws a squishy tomato. I think part of the problem is the disappointment or frustration people feel with the system. You know we all grew up on stories of the family doctor who would rush out in the middle of the night and deliver a baby or treat a wound or comfort the dying. Now it all seems so cold, so distant, so mechanical, so soul-less, so money-driven. And people's perception is that it isn't working. It's certainly my perception.

A&E departments are bedlam, systems are underfunded and overwhelmed, people aren't improving, everyone is uptight and aggressive. Having access to Hospitals of the quality of Bumrungrad was a first for me. Great service. Even there though, I came away disappointed.

Sheryl's approach is commendably even-handed. She has said she sees alternatives as 'complementary' which I think takes the heat out of a lot of the discussion.

As for me. I need a break.

[kat]

double post due to slow internet.

Edited June 1, 2008 by kat

[kat]

While I certainly agree that there are useful and effective thinsg to be found within the very large, diverse collection of what is called "alternative" medicine, Awakened, the "acidity" stuff is not one of them.

The blood and cells of the human body require a very narrow pH range to fuinction - between 7.35 to 7.45 (i.e. very mildly alkalotic). A pH below 7.35 is extermely dangerous and one below 7.0 - which is what it would have to be to qualify as "acidic" -- is not compatible with life.

The idea that diseases are occurring as a result of the blood or tissues being acidic is nonsense, as is the idea that any food will make your body more or less acidic. The body has very well developed mecahnisms for regulated its acid-base balance. These do not break down easily and when they do, it is usually as a result of a life-threatening situation.

The kidneys play a major role in maintaining the right pH; the lungs also contribute (because the exhalation of carbon dioxide rids the body of carbonic acid).

It is possible to alter the pH of intestinal fluids and urine through diet, but this does not mean that any change has occurred in the body's overall pH. It hasn't.

Just because something is "alternative medicine" doesn't make it necessarily wrong, but it also doesn't make it necessarily right. Furthermore, the term "alternative" encompasses a huge range of unrelated things, from homeopathy to accupuncture to "psychic surgery" to Chinese herbal medicine to faith healing to you name it. These are all quite different from each other and on many points thoroughly disagree with each other.

And then there is just plain quackery, which unfortunately gets labelled asd "alternative medicine" right alonmg with the afore mentioned, even though there is a world of difference between it and centuries-old schools of traditional medical practice. (I'm not implying that all of the latter are right...but they are more likely to contain valid treatments than things somebody has simply made up lately on the internet. And they do have rules and underlying principles governing how they are to be used and applied, although plenty of peopkle play fast and loose with those.)

A good rule of thumb: anything that provides a very simplistic explanation for all illness, or all aging, or a very wide range of diverse health problems, is almost certainly trash. The human body, health and disease, are not that simple.

No, it's not that simple, but neither is the biochemistry of food. I don't think quacks are limited to alternative medicine. I personally view as a quack the doctor who diagnosed my obvious and self-diagnosed milk allergy as lactose intolerance and sent me away with a prescription for symptoms of yet another "syndrome", which was immediately addressed through my own additional diagnosis and elimination diet, and of course, waved away as nonsense by him because his IgE blood test (which I had to demand) didn't pick up a wheat intolerance. And yet, it did pick up other signs which as a whole should have directed him to other possibilities, but I had to find out what those were through my own research. I think I was supposed to go away and not return until my IBS turned into stomach lymphoma and cancer, which he could then diagnose and treat. He is not really that uniquely bad, but quite conventional.

On the opposite pole, I think it is ridiculous and scandalous that doctors prescribe anti-depressants SSRIs as a once-size-fits-all approach for PMS symptoms, when the core symptoms can be addressed through diet. It is a matter of perspective, with different trade offs.

[kat]

Hi

Very interesting thread, but I really don't understand why the allophatic and the complementary medicine are viewed as incompatible.

If I have a broken leg I won't go to a spiritual healer and if I have an emotional problem which affects my digestion and blood pressure I certainly won't take anti depressants or other pills, but I will go to somebody who understands the real source of my problems.

Extremes are never healthy paths to walk. To rely completely on one or the other is harmful in my opinion.

As somebody said before, the human being is a multidimensional being and not to be reduced to a mere assembly of cells.

I think the real 'fight' here is not between allophatic and complementary medicine but between people who believe they are just skin and bones, who believe that nothing is real which can not be proved by science and people who believe there is more than the eye can see and science can explain.

Ironically, those who profess to be strictly scientific and dismiss spirituality (ok, I said it...) as BS are not scientific at all, because they don't enquire every possibility out there. They are the ones who blindly believe in science.

How can science even start to 'prove' higher states of consciousness? or love? Just electric stimuli to certain parts of the brain?? please, don't make me laugh!

back to the point again: One view doesn't have to exclude the other. Each side has to acknowledge their strenghts and limitations and finally learn to work togheter. Amazing things will come from that and I'm optimistic for the future.

Here a link for those who some food for their minds ;-)

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/04/2...lber/print.html

enjoy

Nice post.

While I certainly agree that there are useful and effective thinsg to be found within the very large, diverse collection of what is called "alternative" medicine, Awakened, the "acidity" stuff is not one of them.

So I can stop testing my pee then?

Do you naysayers know how many dam_n years I have been trying to recover from stress? How many times I have come to Allopathic medicine seeking help and walked away disappointed? 20 frustrating years. 20 years since my daughter was given the last rites and both parents cracked.

How about sharing some of the useful things? I'm getting to the point where I'm just about to go slash my wrists because if this keeps up all doors will soon be SHUT. It's incredibly frustrating to be told 'Naw, load of codswallop' to every suggestion made. Sick people need HOPE. You guys and gals keep taking it away and we might as well all go home.

Put your dam_n EGOs away for a minute and show a little compassion. Not just for me but for others who are are being let down.

Now that I've got that off my chest...

Sheryl's approach is commendably even-handed. She has said she sees alternatives as 'complementary' which I think takes the heat out of a lot of the discussion.

As for me. I need a break.

I'm sorry Awakened, but I'm still listening. I don't have to agree with everything you say, but I won't dismiss it out-of-hand. I will recognize that it may seem odd to me because I am not aware of it all in its full entirety. I will then research it fully and will most probably learn something, even if I am still skeptical.

Hang in there. You obviously have learned a lot and have good instincts.

And yes, I agree that Sheryl is very even-handed and a great supporter of our good health, which makes it even more beneficial to dialogue with her and discuss and debate. But, even when I disagree, I never forget how incredibly generous and helpful she is on this forum.

[Prakanong]

"double blind studies" "laboratorium tests" Go On!

Even after these so called tests Many of the So Called new medicine does not work, has many side effects they never write about etc.

Alternative medicine did not need these tests because the are already proven for more than 1000 years.

Keep up the good work pharma industry. Rip of people and kill them!

Why are you so afraid that even you PI want to abandon the good old stuff, proven for its reliability and, when taken in a normal dosage, will NEVER kill people!

?

Edited June 2, 2008 by Prakanong

[awakened]

'I think the real 'fight' here is not between allophatic and complementary medicine but between people who believe they are just skin and bones, who believe that nothing is real which can not be proved by science and people who believe there is more than the eye can see and science can explain.'

Your point is very timely. Thank you.

I walked to my bookcase this morning to find something inspirational and grabbed the first book that came to hand. 'Nature, Man & Woman' by Alan Watts. Completely by chance the book fell open at 'Science and Nature'. The devout might say, 'God moved my hand to precisely the chapter that I needed. He works in mysterious ways.' The scientist would guffaw 'Mumbo-jumbo, just a random chance. Happens all the time.'

God was a little late in any event. If I had read it before this morning my previous posts would not have been necessary and I would not have had a late night rush of emotion. Nor would I have been so foolish as to attempt to engage the 'scientists' on their own ground.

So what does Mr Watts have to say on the matter?

Here's my very slimmed-down take on what is a thought-provoking section...

The problem with 'science' is that scientists have merely found a way to label, measure and interpret already existing aspects. They are not making new inventions, merely new discoveries. They are are limited in that they can only measure the measurable. The methods of interpreting in themselves have serious limitations. The reductionism involved in slicing and dicing to the nth degree means they end up with more and more data which becomes less and less manageable and difficult to interpret. They are forced to specialize and are then bogged down in their own scientific cul-de-sacs. The linear fashion in which they analyze does not match nature which is not linear. By ignoring irregularities they, by the very act of forcing nature to conform to their squares, circles and quadrants, can say 'How astonishing it is that natural structures conform so precisely to geometrical laws!'

The degree of complexity is a blight on progress. Why? Because people dare not move without consulting an expert. And as we see in medicine, the 'experts' do not have the answers, though they must clearly be drowning in data. The patients might very well have been better served by never seeing a 'scientist' at all but they are so conditioned to the 'religion' that they are blinded (or cowed) to alternatives.

As science expands its influence an ever growing bureaucracy embraces totalitarianism to control an impossibly complex system of interrelations. Science, if it were truly scientific would already have reached the point of self-strangulation. In practice the scientist relies heavily on intuition. although he may not trust it.

The human race had survived and seemed likely to go on surviving, for perhaps more than a million years before the arrival of modern technology. Now there is every possibility that due to science we will eat or blow ourselves off the planet.

The analytical measurement of nature tells us nothing if we cannot see nature in any other way. The scientist as a scientist does not see nature at all or he sees it only by means of an instrument of measurement. Man as EGO also does not see nature at all, he is identifying himself or his mind with the narrowed and exclusive style of attention which we call consciousness.

--------------------------

In relation to the topic I think that as long as the religion of science remains blind to all other possibilities it will continue to act with scorn. Those seeking a more holistic approach IMO have every right to do so and trust their instincts which are telling them it makes eminently more sense than the narrow focus of the reductionists.

The one thing I can say in defence of all the alternative practitioners I have experienced and there have been quite a few, is that I was glad of the experience, the individuals concerned were genuine in their beliefs and in their efforts to heal and they have never done me any harm. I cannot say the same for Allopathy.

By all means warn of obvious charlatans, like coloured water sold as baldness cures, but keep in mind that buying anything online is a risk. When it comes to money all businesses will charge what the market will bear. It's a fundamental and in any event, since it's my money, I reserve the right to spend it as I see fit. If people are buying individual supplements it is because the reductionist scientists have convinced them that they work, rather than telling them that it is broader dietary or lifestyle changes that are required. If the supplement or herb is useless it may be that the vendor is so scared of a healing reaction triggering a lawsuit, or FDA sanction, he has to dilute it down to the point where it is no longer has any efficacy. Is that the fault of the herbalist or his methods? Or the system?

There are those who wouldn't know what humility was unless it bit them on the behind. Perhaps because they have yet to be taught it, in the school of hard knocks. Or they are perhaps psychologically unwilling or unable to admit the failings of a system in which they are so heavily invested in terms of education, status and rewards.

The refusal to acknowledge its own failings, coupled with the dubious proposition that it alone can treat the sick, is galling to those who have lost loved ones or who have been injured. I guess, like undertakers, detachment becomes a necessity.

The OP stated quite clearly that for certain conditions Allopathy has no idea how to cure, or even the cause. IMO it is in no position to preach to others or to deter them from experimenting with alternatives.

There should be a board 'wise man/woman' who can instill a little humility, by reminding them, just as my granny used to do, that

'People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.'

No glass houses here...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7427768.stm

[Sheryl]

Do you naysayers know how many dam_n years I have been trying to recover from stress? How many times I have come to Allopathic medicine seeking help and walked away disappointed? 20 frustrating years. 20 years since my daughter was given the last rites and both parents cracked.

How about sharing some of the useful things? I'm getting to the point where I'm just about to go slash my wrists because if this keeps up all doors will soon be SHUT. It's incredibly frustrating to be told 'Naw, load of codswallop' to every suggestion made. Sick people need HOPE. You guys and gals keep taking it away and we might as well all go home.

Put your dam_n EGOs away for a minute and show a little compassion. Not just for me but for others who are are being let down.

Awakened,

Of course, none of us have any idea about your personal problems. How could we? You haven't told us anything. You did not start a thread about your personal stress, probelms or frustrations, you started an abstract intellectual debate.

If you are at the point of slashing your wrists, either literaly or figuratively (I trust the latter), you are certainly not going to be helped by these sorts of debates nor by surfing the web for "hope" in the form of a cure-all for disease.

Since you first appeared on this forum, you have hinted at some sort of health issue but never described it. From what very little information you have provided, I have the sense that the issue is not one of physical disease at all and that pursuing it in that fashion -- whether via allopathic teratments or "alternatative" ones -- is only going to end in frustration for you at best.

There are plenty of helpful people on this forum...and, believe it or not, in the medical and allied professions. None of them, however, are mind readers, and nobody can help you with a problem if they don't know what the problem is.

I suggest you stop all these theoretical posts/debates and simply come right out and describe what seems to be the matter. I can'r guarantee that I or anyone else on the forum can help but we will certainly try. If you are uncomfortable doing so in open forum, feel free to PM me.

[mrt273nva]

don't know if this has been mentioned already or not.

don't placebos have a huge percentage of success because the mind believes that it has received the medicine? wouldn't unconventional medicine have the same effect of tricking the mind into curing the body?

[ZZZ]

There are many reasons why there is a problem between traditional and modern medicine. One reason is the fundamental difference in approach.

Modern medicine focuses on treating symptoms by trying to remove these where they appear.

Traditional medicine, especially Chinese, look for subtle symptoms on a daily basis and treat these holistically. Frequently a symptom in one area is ignored as this is caused by a problem somewhere else and that area is treated. It's all about balancing things BEFORE anything happens. Most traditional cures are preventative actions to prevent small symptoms from becoming big problems.

The main reason many people don't have success with traditional medicine is because they use them as modern medicine, trying to treat the symptom in stead of the cause, expects instant success and start medication way to late when the subtle symptom has developed into a problem.

The only way to get back on track with health would be to remove the profit incentive and run it by the government, heavily focusing on preventative care.

Long time ago, in China ,doctors were assigned to villages, their pay was determined by how many healthy people they had in their village, not by how many sick they treated.

[JSixpack]

So what does Mr Watts have to say on the matter?

Just a bunch of uniformed, naive, and self-serving assertions, according to your "take." He's merely a spiritualist, so what would one expect out of him anyway?

In relation to the topic I think that as long as the religion of science remains blind to all other possibilities it will continue to act with scorn.

A number of posters here have tried to tell you that the FDA, companies, and scientists aren't acting with scorn. Now, since you won't believe what we told you, and since you're just wanting to indulge this little paranoid fantasy here repeatedly, looking for agreement where there is going to be very little, will you please just find an alternative medicine practitioner or perhaps buy a dog who loves you to help clear it up before you return? You would feel better and posters here need not waste time further dealing with you on your particular obsession. Stop worrying and start living. (Better living through chemistry, too. )

Those seeking a more holistic approach IMO have every right to do so and trust their instincts

Yawn. Again, nobody said they didn't. But what if their instincts are all screwed up? Who cares? In modern democratic societies we have freedom of religion, but we can't harm others with it.

reductionist scientists have convinced them that they work, rather than telling them that it is broader dietary or lifestyle changes that are required.

Utter self-serving fantasy. There's not a doctor in the modern world who doesn't tell patients to eat a healthy diet and practice a healthy lifestyle. Now, patients typically don't listen. When they're so far gone that conventional medicine can't help them, they waste thousands running after quack remedies. Maybe a quack can bring about a religious conversion to motivate them to do what the doc told them to do in the first place--or, maybe not.

The OP stated quite clearly that for certain conditions Allopathy has no idea how to cure, or even the cause. IMO it is in no position to preach to others or to deter them from experimenting with alternatives.

You are the OP in this thread. We've heard your opinions--the same opinions--repeatedly in three threads. And that last sentence is just the same paranoia. Did you perhaps overindulge in the aloe vera juice this morning?

[FBN]

[FBN. You seem to have a reasonable attitude. Tell me. Did you agree with ANY of the slides?

The last one; that is a normal smear.

The parasitised red blood cells: The lighter area within the red blood cell is simply a reflection of the light as the RBC is a biconcave structure.

Malaria (different species) and babesiosis are just about the only 2 parasitic diseases that actually occur intracellular in the red cells. Both are much smaller and require different staining technique to see.

If fungal threads are in your blood stream, it is a fairly terminal condition; smear image not good enough to see but to me it looks like contamination of the slide with fibre. The staining solution used to stain blood smears for diagnostic purposes very often contains crystals and can confuse untrained persons.

[kat]

don't know if this has been mentioned already or not.

don't placebos have a huge percentage of success because the mind believes that it has received the medicine? wouldn't unconventional medicine have the same effect of tricking the mind into curing the body?

The placebo effect is temporary, does not cure disease, and works for about 1 in 3 people. It is also a good example of a person's expectations, and the role of both positive and negative thinking and the body's response.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/...cebo_Effect.asp

[awakened]

'Of course, none of us have any idea about your personal problems. How could we? You haven't told us anything. You did not start a thread about your personal stress, probelms or frustrations, you started an abstract intellectual debate.'

You are correct. Just a passing cloud. My apologies to all.

'I suggest you stop all these theoretical posts/debates and simply come right out and describe what seems to be the matter.'

I enjoy the opportunity to test my beliefs. When you have sat on these boards for some time, as the 'residents' have, they must have had these skirmishes time and time again and are probably pig sick of having to make the same points. What can I say? I'm fresh to the board and not aware of the history.

I was not aware that clinical practitioners were 'on hand' to assist and I believe I have provided sufficient information to understand the problem, albeit in different posts. The initial trigger for long term stress was a family trauma as I made clear. The failure to 'bounce back' has been the difficulty. Thank you for your offer.

---------------------

Just a bunch of uniformed, naive, and self-serving assertions, according to your "take." He's merely a spiritualist, so what would one expect out of him anyway?

A Spiritual take. Which was precisely the point. As for your 'take'. I don't care for it.

A number of posters here have tried to tell you that the FDA, companies, and scientists aren't acting with scorn.

A number of doctors and publications who would know more than I, assert you are wrong.

will you please just find an alternative medicine practitioner

Since Allopathy can't help, I have little choice in the matter.

Utter self-serving fantasy. There's not a doctor in the modern world who doesn't tell patients to eat a healthy diet and practice a healthy lifestyle.

Last time I checked, the guidelines for dietary intake were being set by scientists.

Now, patients typically don't listen. When they're so far gone that conventional medicine can't help them, they waste thousands running after quack remedies. Maybe a quack can bring about a religious conversion to motivate them to do what the doc told them to do in the first place--or, maybe not.

Just a bunch of self-serving assertions

You are the OP in this thread. We've heard your opinions--the same opinions--repeatedly in three threads. And that last sentence is just the same paranoia. Did you perhaps overindulge in the aloe vera juice this morning?

There is no requirement for you to read my threads, unless you are obsessed with doing so. When the moderators start to complain I know I have overstepped the mark. Are you a moderator?

Now, since you won't believe what we told you, and since you're just wanting to indulge this little paranoid fantasy here repeatedly,

Relax. It was a closing argument.

[lopburi3]

I am a moderator and we have had quite enough - this thread is closed.