Farming In Isaan

[tycoon101]

Let me start off by saying that I am Thai, and I don't know much about framing at all. I've heard about the Isaan people complain about how hard it is to do som farming in Isaan. I just want to a point of view from you Farang folks compare to whereever you're from. Thanks.

[ETC]

Let me start off by saying that I am Thai, and I don't know much about framing at all. I've heard about the Isaan people complain about how hard it is to do som farming in Isaan. I just want to a point of view from you Farang folks compare to whereever you're from. Thanks.

Hi <tycoon>...

After reading your post, the first thought that came to mind is one should compare apples to apples and bananas to bananas. With 20+ years of farming experience I think I speak with some understanding of the principles of farming.

I come from the state of Oregon, in the United States, and it would not be fair to compare most of Oregon's rich soil and plentifull rain fall to the Isaan area. Having said that, I'm reminded of one particular area in Oregon that is in Eastern Oregon, and to the untrained eye was nothing more then high desert covered with sage brush, rattle snakes and jack rabbits.

The area I'm referring to is Christmas Valley Oregon, and when I was a young man, you could drive for many many miles and see nothing but brown dusty desert. Today however, you will find beautiful green fields that go on for miles and miles. The fields are covered with lush green alfalfa that is bailed or made into pellets to make high proteined livestock feed.

The point of what I'm trying to say, is that the U.S. Government wanted to develope that area and so they allowed U.S. citizens to homestead sections of that dry desert and to receive those free sections, they were required to put so much water on that section of land each year.

Fortunately, for the homesteaders, an abundance of water could be found as shallow as 20-feet (around 6.14M) and combine that with giant wheel irrigation systems, to distribute the water evenly and regularly, and a huge market, you had a formula for great success.

It is my personal belief, that if the Isaan farmers had the same tools , equipment and water distribution systems, they too would be flourishing as I find the Isaan farmers to be both hard working and lovely people.

I think it can all be summed up by quoting an old saying: "It takes money to make money". It is one thing for the Isaan farmers to embrace new technology and ideas, but it's another thing for them to afford the changes. It's easy to deversify if you can afford it.

Edited June 20, 2008 by ETC

[tycoon101]

ETC,

Thanks for the input. Guys, keep it coming I'd like to hear more from Farangs.

[billd766]

Let me start off by saying that I am Thai, and I don't know much about framing at all. I've heard about the Isaan people complain about how hard it is to do som farming in Isaan. I just want to a point of view from you Farang folks compare to whereever you're from. Thanks.

Hi <tycoon>...

After reading your post, the first thought that came to mind is one should compare apples to apples and bananas to bananas. With 20+ years of farming experience I think I speak with some understanding of the principles of farming.

I come from the state of Oregon, in the United States, and it would not be fair to compare most of Oregon's rich soil and plentifull rain fall to the Isaan area. Having said that, I'm reminded of one particular area in Oregon that is in Eastern Oregon, and to the untrained eye was nothing more then high desert covered with sage brush, rattle snakes and jack rabbits.

The area I'm referring to is Christmas Valley Oregon, and when I was a young man, you could drive for many many miles and see nothing but brown dusty desert. Today however, you will find beautiful green fields that go on for miles and miles. The fields are covered with lush green alfalfa that is bailed or made into pellets to make high proteined livestock feed.

The point of what I'm trying to say, is that the U.S. Government wanted to develope that area and so they allowed U.S. citizens to homestead sections of that dry desert and to receive those free sections, they were required to put so much water on that section of land each year.

Fortunately, for the homesteaders, an abundance of water could be found as shallow as 20-feet (around 6.14M) and combine that with giant wheel irrigation systems, to distribute the water evenly and regularly, and a huge market, you had a formula for great success.

It is my personal belief, that if the Isaan farmers had the same tools , equipment and water distribution systems, they too would be flourishing as I find the Isaan farmers to be both hard working and lovely people.

I think it can all be summed up by quoting an old saying: "It takes money to make money". It is one thing for the Isaan farmers to embrace new technology and ideas, but it's another thing for them to afford the changes. It's easy to deversify if you can afford it.

I live on the other side of the country from Issan and While we have a few rai under cultivation with cassava I am not yet a "real" farmer. I am in New Zealand at the moment earning money to buy more land for cultivation in the next year or two but my wife and I are among the more fortunate as she owns and will own more land plus I have an income which is not dependant on farming.

Unfortunately for Issan farmers they do NOT have access to the same tools, equipment and water distribution systems as the people in Christmas Valley Oregon, nor do a lot of them own the land that they farm.

Most struggle by from year to year barely breaking even and psssibly making a loss if there crops are blighted but any number of pests. The cost of diesel fuel for tractors and iron buffalos keeps going up and fertiliser prices have nearly doubled year on year.

There was a rice farmer harvesting 50 rai which would have paid off his debts and given him and his family a future. Unfortunately only about 10 rais worth could be sold as the rest of his crop was spoiled and he had no money to live for the next year.

He killed himself and now his wife and children have no father and no land.

The only way to make money in farming is to be the middleman and buy crops cheap from the farmer and sell on at a higher price.

The bad news is that there is a sort of a closed shop (or mafia) that you need to be a member of but you will never be allowed to join.

THEY are the ones making big money.

They advance money to poor farmers so that the farmers can buy seed, fertiliser etc for the next years crop and agree to buy that crop at a guaranteed price next year which is never very high.

It IS possible to make money in farming but it will not be easy money.

[toptuan]

Who said it was bad? I have a lush garden made entirely of fruit seeds I have spit out over the course of several years! I am amazed at how fertile the soil is here!

Yes, it does take some consistent watering 8-9 months a year. There's the challenge, as so aptly discussed by ETC, above.

[ETC]

Let me start off by saying that I am Thai, and I don't know much about framing at all. I've heard about the Isaan people complain about how hard it is to do som farming in Isaan. I just want to a point of view from you Farang folks compare to whereever you're from. Thanks.

Hi <tycoon>...

After reading your post, the first thought that came to mind is one should compare apples to apples and bananas to bananas. With 20+ years of farming experience I think I speak with some understanding of the principles of farming.

I come from the state of Oregon, in the United States, and it would not be fair to compare most of Oregon's rich soil and plentifull rain fall to the Isaan area. Having said that, I'm reminded of one particular area in Oregon that is in Eastern Oregon, and to the untrained eye was nothing more then high desert covered with sage brush, rattle snakes and jack rabbits.

The area I'm referring to is Christmas Valley Oregon, and when I was a young man, you could drive for many many miles and see nothing but brown dusty desert. Today however, you will find beautiful green fields that go on for miles and miles. The fields are covered with lush green alfalfa that is bailed or made into pellets to make high proteined livestock feed.

The point of what I'm trying to say, is that the U.S. Government wanted to develope that area and so they allowed U.S. citizens to homestead sections of that dry desert and to receive those free sections, they were required to put so much water on that section of land each year.

Fortunately, for the homesteaders, an abundance of water could be found as shallow as 20-feet (around 6.14M) and combine that with giant wheel irrigation systems, to distribute the water evenly and regularly, and a huge market, you had a formula for great success.

It is my personal belief, that if the Isaan farmers had the same tools , equipment and water distribution systems, they too would be flourishing as I find the Isaan farmers to be both hard working and lovely people.

I think it can all be summed up by quoting an old saying: "It takes money to make money". It is one thing for the Isaan farmers to embrace new technology and ideas, but it's another thing for them to afford the changes. It's easy to deversify if you can afford it.

I live on the other side of the country from Issan and While we have a few rai under cultivation with cassava I am not yet a "real" farmer. I am in New Zealand at the moment earning money to buy more land for cultivation in the next year or two but my wife and I are among the more fortunate as she owns and will own more land plus I have an income which is not dependant on farming.

Unfortunately for Issan farmers they do NOT have access to the same tools, equipment and water distribution systems as the people in Christmas Valley Oregon, nor do a lot of them own the land that they farm.

Most struggle by from year to year barely breaking even and psssibly making a loss if there crops are blighted but any number of pests. The cost of diesel fuel for tractors and iron buffalos keeps going up and fertiliser prices have nearly doubled year on year.

There was a rice farmer harvesting 50 rai which would have paid off his debts and given him and his family a future. Unfortunately only about 10 rais worth could be sold as the rest of his crop was spoiled and he had no money to live for the next year.

He killed himself and now his wife and children have no father and no land.

The only way to make money in farming is to be the middleman and buy crops cheap from the farmer and sell on at a higher price.

The bad news is that there is a sort of a closed shop (or mafia) that you need to be a member of but you will never be allowed to join.

THEY are the ones making big money.

They advance money to poor farmers so that the farmers can buy seed, fertiliser etc for the next years crop and agree to buy that crop at a guaranteed price next year which is never very high.

It IS possible to make money in farming but it will not be easy money.

billd766

Am in agreement with what you are saying but not everyone can be a middleman, and without the farmer, there is no middle. I've read about some Thai farmers trying to organize and that is the only way I see them beating the old system. I'm not familiar with everthing they are trying to implement, but I can speak from past experience, and I believe that is what they need to get them out of this Merry-go-round life is to form large Non-Profit Coops made up of Thai farmers. Thai farmers taking care of Thai farmers, with everything from loans for seed, fertilizer etc., and purchasing their crops at fair market value and re-investing Coop profits back into helping more farmers the next year. Granted, it will take some money, whether from the government or from the private sector, to get things going. As we all know, it only takes one small step to start a journey.

I have a real soft spot in my heart for the small rural farmers, and when I return to Thailand in the next two months, I fully intend on doing what I can to help as many farmers as I can to become more profitable, by helping them organize and create their own markets , and the only middleman they will have is their Farmers' Coop. A Coop that truly cares about their farm and their families.

Edited June 21, 2008 by ETC

[toptuan]

I have a real soft spot in my heart for the small rural farmers, and when I return to Thailand in the next two months, I fully intend on doing what I can to help as many farmers as I can to become more profitable, by helping them organize and create their own markets , and the only middleman they will have is their Farmers' Coop. A Coop that truly cares about their farm and their families.

Kudos to you, and I wish you well.

In the same breath, I would suggest you be very, very careful.

The middle-man "mafia" is strong and they commonly resort to mafia-like tactics. About 8 months ago, I tried to instigate an export scheme with some local Thai rice farmer friends, but they all backed down in fear of the MMM (murderous middleman mafia). Often the local BIB are paid off by them, so there is no real protection for the intended victim(s). It's a strong and palpable presence to the intimidated small rural farmer.

Edited June 21, 2008 by toptuan

[pnustedt]

It has long been a policy of Thai rulers to keep farmers busy doing physical work in subsistance farming and mechanisation has been discouraged. This has resulted in the unproductive series of smallholdings which now make up much of Isaan. The life of most farmers is a hard and miserable one where many cannot afford to support their families who leave the countryside in droves to work in the cities.

I made a modest investment in farming last year and have found that I can make a profit to support myself and two branches of my wife's family (or rather they can now support themselves by working with me).

I have heard many stories about this supposed mafia and had various veiled threats which I ignore - I am not so sure that they actually exist, I do work in a business co-operation with a Thai-Chinese company which has benefitted my operation. I do find that the local government organisations are obstructive and I have taken out legal injuctions against them.

I find it incredible here how things grow so quickly/easily and I can't help feeling that there are so many, so far, untapped possibilities which I enjoy exploring.

[ETC]

I have a real soft spot in my heart for the small rural farmers, and when I return to Thailand in the next two months, I fully intend on doing what I can to help as many farmers as I can to become more profitable, by helping them organize and create their own markets , and the only middleman they will have is their Farmers' Coop. A Coop that truly cares about their farm and their families.

Kudos to you, and I wish you well.

In the same breath, I would suggest you be very, very careful.

The middle-man "mafia" is strong and they commonly resort to mafia-like tactics. About 8 months ago, I tried to instigate an export scheme with some local Thai rice farmer friends, but they all backed down in fear of the MMM (murderous middleman mafia). Often the local BIB are paid off by them, so there is no real protection for the intended victim(s). It's a strong and palpable presence to the intimidated small rural farmer.

toptuan

Want to thank you for the warning and I am fully aware of the perals involved. Every problem has a solution but it normally comes with a cost. A complete solution will have to come from the top down. I would be very interested in hearing about your efforts with your Thai rice farming friends, but not on this forum. I will send you a message today..

[ETC]

It has long been a policy of Thai rulers to keep farmers busy doing physical work in subsistance farming and mechanisation has been discouraged. This has resulted in the unproductive series of smallholdings which now make up much of Isaan. The life of most farmers is a hard and miserable one where many cannot afford to support their families who leave the countryside in droves to work in the cities.

I made a modest investment in farming last year and have found that I can make a profit to support myself and two branches of my wife's family (or rather they can now support themselves by working with me).

I have heard many stories about this supposed mafia and had various veiled threats which I ignore - I am not so sure that they actually exist, I do work in a business co-operation with a Thai-Chinese company which has benefitted my operation. I do find that the local government organisations are obstructive and I have taken out legal injuctions against them.

I find it incredible here how things grow so quickly/easily and I can't help feeling that there are so many, so far, untapped possibilities which I enjoy exploring.

pnustedt

You sound a bit like me, but in one area we differ. I know they exist and they will have to be dealt with.

[gonzobrains]

I have a real soft spot in my heart for the small rural farmers, and when I return to Thailand in the next two months, I fully intend on doing what I can to help as many farmers as I can to become more profitable, by helping them organize and create their own markets , and the only middleman they will have is their Farmers' Coop. A Coop that truly cares about their farm and their families.

Kudos to you, and I wish you well.

In the same breath, I would suggest you be very, very careful.

The middle-man "mafia" is strong and they commonly resort to mafia-like tactics. About 8 months ago, I tried to instigate an export scheme with some local Thai rice farmer friends, but they all backed down in fear of the MMM (murderous middleman mafia). Often the local BIB are paid off by them, so there is no real protection for the intended victim(s). It's a strong and palpable presence to the intimidated small rural farmer.

What is the BIB? I imagine they don't have this problem in Christmas Valley Oregon?

[gonzobrains]

It has long been a policy of Thai rulers to keep farmers busy doing physical work in subsistance farming and mechanisation has been discouraged. This has resulted in the unproductive series of smallholdings which now make up much of Isaan. The life of most farmers is a hard and miserable one where many cannot afford to support their families who leave the countryside in droves to work in the cities.

I made a modest investment in farming last year and have found that I can make a profit to support myself and two branches of my wife's family (or rather they can now support themselves by working with me).

I have heard many stories about this supposed mafia and had various veiled threats which I ignore - I am not so sure that they actually exist, I do work in a business co-operation with a Thai-Chinese company which has benefitted my operation. I do find that the local government organisations are obstructive and I have taken out legal injuctions against them.

I find it incredible here how things grow so quickly/easily and I can't help feeling that there are so many, so far, untapped possibilities which I enjoy exploring.

Can you elaborate on how obstructive these organizations are? Are you talking about the local poo yai ban or someone/something else? I would imagine problems with government and mafia are just another case of people trying to preserve the status quo. It happens in our home countries, too, just in a different fashion.

[Khonwan]

...

What is the BIB? ...

BIB='Boys In Brown'=police

[ETC]

I have a real soft spot in my heart for the small rural farmers, and when I return to Thailand in the next two months, I fully intend on doing what I can to help as many farmers as I can to become more profitable, by helping them organize and create their own markets , and the only middleman they will have is their Farmers' Coop. A Coop that truly cares about their farm and their families.

Kudos to you, and I wish you well.

In the same breath, I would suggest you be very, very careful.

The middle-man "mafia" is strong and they commonly resort to mafia-like tactics. About 8 months ago, I tried to instigate an export scheme with some local Thai rice farmer friends, but they all backed down in fear of the MMM (murderous middleman mafia). Often the local BIB are paid off by them, so there is no real protection for the intended victim(s). It's a strong and palpable presence to the intimidated small rural farmer.

What is the BIB? I imagine they don't have this problem in Christmas Valley Oregon?

gonzobrains

It's safe to assume that there is no perfect society. Even in Christmas Valley Oregon we have the GOB (Good Ole Boys) that fight newcomers and change in any form.....Bye the way...Where in the U.S. are you from? Thanks again!

[pnustedt]

Can you elaborate on how obstructive these organizations are? Are you talking about the local poo yai ban or someone/something else?

The local poo yai ban imposed a tax on combine harvesters of Bt2,000 pa (we have two) and after we paid stated that this was for the village only, other villages may charge too. This made it impossible for us to operate as we work in many villages and it is not known precisely where the borders beween them are. We complained at the amphur but didn't get a satisfactory response. We later found that we were the only ones who paid the "tax" and that the local rubbish collector (an old lady who collected bottles, etc. for recycling) was going to be charged a tax of Bt1,000 pa whereas she would be lucky to make a few hundred. They subsequently dropped this tax after the old lady stopped collecting the rubbish.

We appointed solicitors to take legal action against both the oberdour (poo yai ban) and the amphur. Our silicitor advises us that there is no legal basis for the tax.

We have never had any problems with the "mafia" but there has been talk of steel rods being placed in the rice paddies to sabotage our machines and various other threats of vandalism if we did not co-operate by adopting higher prices. We also camp out with the machines and, at times, collect large sums of cash, worries have been expressed that I (or my wife) could be kidnap targets. At times we are not far from the Cambodian border.

[IsaanAussie]

Can you elaborate on how obstructive these organizations are? Are you talking about the local poo yai ban or someone/something else?

The local poo yai ban imposed a tax on combine harvesters of Bt2,000 pa (we have two) and after we paid stated that this was for the village only, other villages may charge too. This made it impossible for us to operate as we work in many villages and it is not known precisely where the borders beween them are. We complained at the amphur but didn't get a satisfactory response. We later found that we were the only ones who paid the "tax" and that the local rubbish collector (an old lady who collected bottles, etc. for recycling) was going to be charged a tax of Bt1,000 pa whereas she would be lucky to make a few hundred. They subsequently dropped this tax after the old lady stopped collecting the rubbish.

We appointed solicitors to take legal action against both the oberdour (poo yai ban) and the amphur. Our silicitor advises us that there is no legal basis for the tax.

We have never had any problems with the "mafia" but there has been talk of steel rods being placed in the rice paddies to sabotage our machines and various other threats of vandalism if we did not co-operate by adopting higher prices. We also camp out with the machines and, at times, collect large sums of cash, worries have been expressed that I (or my wife) could be kidnap targets. At times we are not far from the Cambodian border.

Mate,

Maybe time to drop your tag line, and "Pen Rai" a bit more. Still, hang in there because I am counting on you to harvest our rice this year. Maybe a visit to the poo yai ban prior to harvesting could cement relationships a bit, amazing what a bottle and a farang smile can do at times.

[slapout]

pnustedt; Your combine is cutting into the local village economy in that the labor contractor who furnish people for cutting and thrashing are denied a potential market. After watching the village farm operation for a few years I have come to the conclusion that the farmers, who make virtually no profit, support the local unemployeed drinkers and their womenfolk by hiring both to do the work where large numbers of labor is required, through a labor contractor. The labor contractor, in several cases I have observed, is the fellow/family who loaned money to plant, furnished fertilizer and will receive the crop for wholesale price. If rice were broadcast instead of being hand planted one group of laborers would be eliminated, small wonder the (fellow/family) tell the farmer broadcasting is bad. Your combine operation is fairly new in Thailand and requires much more investment than the labor business which is now not avaliable, so a tax is collected. Who retains the monies from this tax? I would venture that the tax is equal to about the profit the (fellow/family) made on labor, plus a nuisance charge. I always throught of mafia as having far reaching connections, whereas what I have observed seems to be fairly local.

[pnustedt]

pnustedt; Your combine is cutting into the local village economy in that the labor contractor who furnish people for cutting and thrashing are denied a potential market.

This is incorrect. Most of the harvesting in my area is done by machines from other areas (particularly northern Isaan and Nakhon Pathom). There is very little hand harvesting done. Whereas I employ locals and the income we receive goes back into the local economy and the local farmers also benefit as I charge lower prices. I am actually reducing a drain on the village economy and contributing quite substantially towards it.

[IsaanAussie]

pnustedt; Your combine is cutting into the local village economy in that the labor contractor who furnish people for cutting and thrashing are denied a potential market. After watching the village farm operation for a few years I have come to the conclusion that the farmers, who make virtually no profit, support the local unemployeed drinkers and their womenfolk by hiring both to do the work where large numbers of labor is required, through a labor contractor. The labor contractor, in several cases I have observed, is the fellow/family who loaned money to plant, furnished fertilizer and will receive the crop for wholesale price. If rice were broadcast instead of being hand planted one group of laborers would be eliminated, small wonder the (fellow/family) tell the farmer broadcasting is bad. Your combine operation is fairly new in Thailand and requires much more investment than the labor business which is now not avaliable, so a tax is collected. Who retains the monies from this tax? I would venture that the tax is equal to about the profit the (fellow/family) made on labor, plus a nuisance charge. I always throught of mafia as having far reaching connections, whereas what I have observed seems to be fairly local.

Agree absolutely. The local Thai "bar-flies" are a particular nuisance in most villages. Every time we go upcountry they descend on my wife and I looking for a handout. The message must go out that the Wallet is back. I can only imagine the problem that these disaffected guys make for the poo yai ban every day of the week.

If I have need of labour I try to get our poo yai to organise it. The simple instruction is I don't want anyone to get hurt, so, no-one who is drunk today. It works well in the closed village environment but I appreciate that for a contractor just passing through, it may not apply.

Whatever tactic you use, you have to get them on side. Their game, their rules.......... Perhaps it is as simple as supplying a few jobs loading bags of rice after the harvester is done. The crew moves on quicker, locals happy..

[SAP]

pnustedt; Your combine is cutting into the local village economy in that the labor contractor who furnish people for cutting and thrashing are denied a potential market. After watching the village farm operation for a few years I have come to the conclusion that the farmers, who make virtually no profit, support the local unemployeed drinkers and their womenfolk by hiring both to do the work where large numbers of labor is required, through a labor contractor. The labor contractor, in several cases I have observed, is the fellow/family who loaned money to plant, furnished fertilizer and will receive the crop for wholesale price. If rice were broadcast instead of being hand planted one group of laborers would be eliminated, small wonder the (fellow/family) tell the farmer broadcasting is bad. Your combine operation is fairly new in Thailand and requires much more investment than the labor business which is now not avaliable, so a tax is collected. Who retains the monies from this tax? I would venture that the tax is equal to about the profit the (fellow/family) made on labor, plus a nuisance charge. I always throught of mafia as having far reaching connections, whereas what I have observed seems to be fairly local.

Agree absolutely. The local Thai "bar-flies" are a particular nuisance in most villages. Every time we go upcountry they descend on my wife and I looking for a handout. The message must go out that the Wallet is back. I can only imagine the problem that these disaffected guys make for the poo yai ban every day of the week.

If I have need of labour I try to get our poo yai to organise it. The simple instruction is I don't want anyone to get hurt, so, no-one who is drunk today. It works well in the closed village environment but I appreciate that for a contractor just passing through, it may not apply.

Whatever tactic you use, you have to get them on side. Their game, their rules.......... Perhaps it is as simple as supplying a few jobs loading bags of rice after the harvester is done. The crew moves on quicker, locals happy..

I agree with Isaan Aussie .The first person I would talk to in any village about a venture like this would be the Poo Yai Ban, discussing openly what you are doing the benefits involved for the village, and asking him for such things as help and possible contacts. 2000 bt tax is obviously someone creaming you but if you go and get lawyers involved, what will you get??? Probably your 2000 bt back and a severely reduced clientele thrpugh bad press.

Always give donations to the temple and whenever ask by someone imprortant in the village, and get savy on what is expected and don't go dumping large sums out, at that will attract the barflies. The BIB had opened police box on an inter-sectioned and ask for a dontation for the opening ceremony. WE gave them 8 plastic seats with a company sticker on it.

Really you only have to be seen to be giving. Keep the locals happy or your future in any business has the potential to attacked by sabotage, keep them happy and you will be surprised what the local Poo Yai Ban can sort out.

[slapout]

pnuestd; Well if your price is cheaper than the other commercial combiners, are they also being hit up for village tax. If so. I go back to my orginal local economy theory, a local is being cut out of his perceived share. The tax being charged will take care of his or her lost income, forget the local unemployeed. If your the only payee for this tax. maybe you should check out who owns the other combines. I agree you put money back into the local economy, but the thinking may be, he bought the machine out side the village, thus this displaced the people who used to work in manual harvest. If all combines are charged the same tax, I guess this tax is going toward providing for the displaced workers (loose term) sure it is. Just some thoughts to mull around. A question for you, what is the mositure content of the rice when you harvest with machine? Is mosture content lower than normal hand harvest (30%+-). The reason I ask is the part of the machine cutting cost recoverable at the mill on mositure content?

[Khonwan]

Hi pnustedt

The Or Bor Dor is a tambon (sub-district) councilor elected by the village, whilst the poo yai ban is the elected village headperson (cannot be the same person). To the best of my knowledge, poo yai bans have no authority to tax but Or Bor Dor officials do. Were I you, I would take the matter up with the Naiyoke Or Bor Dor (the tambon leader; an elected official). If you are not satisfied by his/her response, you should lodge a complaint with the Nai Amphur (District Governor - an appointed senior civil servant).

If the reason for disagreement is your low price, why don’t you raise your price to that of your competitors? Funny, I have the opposite problem – I don’t hire out my tractor because none of my competitors will raise their price to a more reasonable level.

Rgds

Khonwan

[pnustedt]

Hi pnustedt

The Or Bor Dor is a tambon (sub-district) councilor elected by the village, whilst the poo yai ban is the elected village headperson (cannot be the same person). To the best of my knowledge, poo yai bans have no authority to tax but Or Bor Dor officials do. Were I you, I would take the matter up with the Naiyoke Or Bor Dor (the tambon leader; an elected official). If you are not satisfied by his/her response, you should lodge a complaint with the Nai Amphur (District Governor - an appointed senior civil servant).

If the reason for disagreement is your low price, why don’t you raise your price to that of your competitors? Funny, I have the opposite problem – I don’t hire out my tractor because none of my competitors will raise their price to a more reasonable level.

Rgds

Khonwan

Our poo yai ban actually works in the Or Bor Dor office at the tam bon. We have already been to the district Governor and received no satisfaction. The problem is not just the levy made in our village, if we allowed it to stand every village could impose a levy, we work in many local villages, so we needed to include the Amphur in any legal action. The whole local government setup here is corrupt, and far from losing business by standing up to them, the locals are happier to work with us because they know that at least we are not in cahoots. I will not deal with anyone who is corrupt and will enforce my rights, and that of my employees and family by any legal means. My disagreement with the officials has nothing to do with the price - they won't even know it unless they are also customers. It is about them trying to illegally extract money for no other reason than they see an opportunity. As I have said previously, nobody else appears to have paid this tax. The national Thai press is also on to this situation and are compiling a story.

I can operate my business profitably at my prices and am happy to pass on the benefits to my customers. We are generous to our Wat and have provided medical treatment to people in the village. We also have a party pre and post-harvest, where even the poo yai ban comes and drinks my beer. We also employ local staff who wish to work (not just seasonally because we grow many intermediate crops) some of whom would otherwise have to leave their families to work in Bkk or Pattaya.

For slapout: The water content can vary considerably, our harvesters work particularly well (comparatively speaking) in water, so much of our havested rice will be high in moisture content. After harvesting the rice is taken by the farmer where he will normally lay it out on a flat surface and dry it in the sun. It is subsequently sold (by the farmers) to the dealers and the same price is paid for m/c harvested rice as hand harvested. I would argue that some of our machine cutting cost is recoverable due to greater efficiency and reduced wastage - we seem to get more rice/rai than anyone else!

[SAP]

Hi pnustedt

The Or Bor Dor is a tambon (sub-district) councilor elected by the village, whilst the poo yai ban is the elected village headperson (cannot be the same person). To the best of my knowledge, poo yai bans have no authority to tax but Or Bor Dor officials do. Were I you, I would take the matter up with the Naiyoke Or Bor Dor (the tambon leader; an elected official). If you are not satisfied by his/her response, you should lodge a complaint with the Nai Amphur (District Governor - an appointed senior civil servant).

If the reason for disagreement is your low price, why don’t you raise your price to that of your competitors? Funny, I have the opposite problem – I don’t hire out my tractor because none of my competitors will raise their price to a more reasonable level.

Rgds

Khonwan

Our poo yai ban actually works in the Or Bor Dor office at the tam bon. We have already been to the district Governor and received no satisfaction. The problem is not just the levy made in our village, if we allowed it to stand every village could impose a levy, we work in many local villages, so we needed to include the Amphur in any legal action. The whole local government setup here is corrupt, and far from losing business by standing up to them, the locals are happier to work with us because they know that at least we are not in cahoots. I will not deal with anyone who is corrupt and will enforce my rights, and that of my employees and family by any legal means. My disagreement with the officials has nothing to do with the price - they won't even know it unless they are also customers. It is about them trying to illegally extract money for no other reason than they see an opportunity. As I have said previously, nobody else appears to have paid this tax. The national Thai press is also on to this situation and are compiling a story.

I can operate my business profitably at my prices and am happy to pass on the benefits to my customers. We are generous to our Wat and have provided medical treatment to people in the village. We also have a party pre and post-harvest, where even the poo yai ban comes and drinks my beer. We also employ local staff who wish to work (not just seasonally because we grow many intermediate crops) some of whom would otherwise have to leave their families to work in Bkk or Pattaya.

For slapout: The water content can vary considerably, our harvesters work particularly well (comparatively speaking) in water, so much of our havested rice will be high in moisture content. After harvesting the rice is taken by the farmer where he will normally lay it out on a flat surface and dry it in the sun. It is subsequently sold (by the farmers) to the dealers and the same price is paid for m/c harvested rice as hand harvested. I would argue that some of our machine cutting cost is recoverable due to greater efficiency and reduced wastage - we seem to get more rice/rai than anyone else!

Just an idea and a possible way to deal with the situation, now that you know you are not legally bound to pay the tax, "Don't pay it?"

What are they going to do about it?

IT will probably upset the Poo Yai Ban.........what would the possible consequences be???

SAP

[pnustedt]

Just an idea and a possible way to deal with the situation, now that you know you are not legally bound to pay the tax, "Don't pay it?"

Yes, that is what we will now do (or should I say won't do) now that we have established the legal position.

[Khonwan]

...Our poo yai ban actually works in the Or Bor Dor office at the tam bon. ...

Working in the Or Bor Dor office does not make him an Or Bor Dor (a sub-district councilor). In consequence of this, he has no authority to raise taxes.

[IsaanAussie]

Guys,

I would add a word of caution here. Anyone can file a complaint with the BIB here. These must be acted on and an arrest made with investigations often to follow. However you handle these situations please keep that in mind and always balance risk against what may be just a nuisance cost.

I dislike corruption as much as the next man but try to view things in local terms. Surely buying lunch or a "cup of tea" for a policeman in apology for some minor traffic offence is a lot easier than a trip to the station, a lengthy wait and larger fine. Sure it wrankles but you learn to live with it.

The smaller the target, the less often it gets hit.

(from under my rock)

Isaanaussie

[pnustedt]

Guys,

I would add a word of caution here. Anyone can file a complaint with the BIB here. These must be acted on and an arrest made with investigations often to follow. However you handle these situations please keep that in mind and always balance risk against what may be just a nuisance cost.

I dislike corruption as much as the next man but try to view things in local terms. Surely buying lunch or a "cup of tea" for a policeman in apology for some minor traffic offence is a lot easier than a trip to the station, a lengthy wait and larger fine. Sure it wrankles but you learn to live with it.

The smaller the target, the less often it gets hit.

(from under my rock)

Isaanaussie

The situation has nothing to do with the police. Actually I employ the local policeman. If I commit a statutory traffic offence (which I try not to) I expect t pay the penalty and receive the appropriate receipt, not to buy the policeman a lunch or "cup of tea". I will not learn to live with corruption. The locals dislike the corruption which they know happens as much as I do. This target fires back!

[gonzobrains]

I have a real soft spot in my heart for the small rural farmers, and when I return to Thailand in the next two months, I fully intend on doing what I can to help as many farmers as I can to become more profitable, by helping them organize and create their own markets , and the only middleman they will have is their Farmers' Coop. A Coop that truly cares about their farm and their families.

Kudos to you, and I wish you well.

In the same breath, I would suggest you be very, very careful.

The middle-man "mafia" is strong and they commonly resort to mafia-like tactics. About 8 months ago, I tried to instigate an export scheme with some local Thai rice farmer friends, but they all backed down in fear of the MMM (murderous middleman mafia). Often the local BIB are paid off by them, so there is no real protection for the intended victim(s). It's a strong and palpable presence to the intimidated small rural farmer.

What is the BIB? I imagine they don't have this problem in Christmas Valley Oregon?

gonzobrains

It's safe to assume that there is no perfect society. Even in Christmas Valley Oregon we have the GOB (Good Ole Boys) that fight newcomers and change in any form.....Bye the way...Where in the U.S. are you from? Thanks again!

Southern California and Vegas

[ETC]

I have a real soft spot in my heart for the small rural farmers, and when I return to Thailand in the next two months, I fully intend on doing what I can to help as many farmers as I can to become more profitable, by helping them organize and create their own markets , and the only middleman they will have is their Farmers' Coop. A Coop that truly cares about their farm and their families.

Kudos to you, and I wish you well.

In the same breath, I would suggest you be very, very careful.

The middle-man "mafia" is strong and they commonly resort to mafia-like tactics. About 8 months ago, I tried to instigate an export scheme with some local Thai rice farmer friends, but they all backed down in fear of the MMM (murderous middleman mafia). Often the local BIB are paid off by them, so there is no real protection for the intended victim(s). It's a strong and palpable presence to the intimidated small rural farmer.

What is the BIB? I imagine they don't have this problem in Christmas Valley Oregon?

gonzobrains

It's safe to assume that there is no perfect society. Even in Christmas Valley Oregon we have the GOB (Good Ole Boys) that fight newcomers and change in any form.....Bye the way...Where in the U.S. are you from? Thanks again!

Southern California and Vegas

gonzobrains

We've chewed some of the same ground. Was stationed out of Camp Pendleton years ago and owned a business in Reno for a little over 5 years. Love Nevada but can do without Southern California.