Deconstructing Thai

[desi]

A couple of months ago I came across a blog post centred around deconstructing languages to figure out their difficulty. Curious, I thought I'd try it with Thai.

And since I'm a newbie at Thai, a kind friend helped out. He translated the Thai, I used an online dictionary to translate it back to English so I could see where everything landed (note: I've added spaces in the Thai because I'm crazy slow at reading).

So my question is this, do we have it right?

(for obvious reasons, especially my part)

Original

The apple is red.

It is John’s apple.

I give John the apple.

We give him the apple.

He gives it to John.

She gives it to him.

I don’t give apples.

They don’t give apples.

He doesn’t give apples.

I gave John an apple yesterday.

She gave John an apple last week.

We’ll give John an apple tomorrow.

I must give it to him.

I want to give it to him.

Deconstruction

Apple red

It is apple of John

I give apple at John

We give apple at him (male)

He (male) give it at John

She give it at him (male)

I not give apple

They not give apple

He not give apple

I give apple at John yesterday

She give apple at John at week which already

We will give apple at John in tomorrow

I must give it at him (male)

I desire give it at him (male)

Translation

แอปเปิ้ล สีแ ดง

มัน คือ แอปเปิ้ล ของ จอร์น

ฉัน ให้ แอปเปิ้ล กับ จอร์น

พวก เรา ให้ แอปเปิ้ล กับ เขา (ผู้ชาย)

เขา (ผู้ชาย) ให้ มัน กับ จอร์น

หล่อน ให้ มัน กับ เขา (ผู้ชาย)

ฉัน ไม่ ให้ แอปเปิ้ล

พวก เขา ไม่ ให้ แอปเปิ้ล

เขา (ผู้ชาย) ไม่ ให้ แอปเปิ้ล

ฉัน ให้ แอปเปิ้ล กับ จอร์น เมื่อวานนี้

หล่อน ให้ แอปเปิ้ล กับ จอร์น เมื่อ อาทิตย์ที่ แล้ว

พวก เรา จะ ให้ แอปเปิ้ล กับ จอร์น ในวันพรุ่งนี้

ฉัน ต้อง ให้ มัน กับ เขา (ผู้ชาย)

ฉัน ต้อง การ ให้ มัน กับ เขา (ผู้ชาย)

Transliteration (via tha2english.com)

àep-bpern sĕe daeng

man keu àep-bpern kŏng John

chăn hâi àep-bpern gàp John

pûak-rao hâi àep-bpern gàp kăo (pôo chaai)

kăo (pôo chaai) hâi man gàp John

lòn hâi man gàp kăo (pôo chaai)

chăn mâi hâi àep-bpern

pûak-kăo mâi hâi àep-bpern

kăo (pôo chaai) mâi hâi àep-bpern

chăn hâi àep-bpern gàp John mêua waan née

lòn hâi àep-bpern gàp John mêua aa-tít têe láew

pûak rao jà hâi àep-bpern gàp John nai wan prôong-née

chăn dtông hâi man gàp kăo (pôo chaai)

chăn dtông-gaan hâi man gàp kăo (pôo chaai)

Comments, suggestions and tips on Thai structure are more than welcome!

[desi]

I wasn't sure if I should share a link to the post in question, but perhaps it'll explain why I wanted to do this exercise.

How to Learn (But Not Master) Any Language in 1 Hour, has a (in my opinion) misleading title. What I'm interested in is deconstructing the Thai language by using his sample sentences.

Before you invest (or waste) hundreds and thousands of hours on a language, you should deconstruct it. During my thesis research at Princeton, which focused on neuroscience and unorthodox acquisition of Japanese by native English speakers, as well as when redesigning curricula for Berlitz, this neglected deconstruction step surfaced as one of the distinguishing habits of the fastest language learners…

These six sentences alone expose much of the language...

First, they help me to see if and how verbs are conjugated based on speaker (both according to gender and number). I’m also able to immediately identify an uber-pain in some languages: placement of indirect objects (John), direct objects (the apple), and their respective pronouns (him, it). I would follow these sentences with a few negations (“I don’t give…”) and different tenses to see if these are expressed as separate words (“bu” in Chinese as negation, for example) or verb changes (“-nai” or “-masen” in Japanese), the latter making a language much harder to crack.

Second, I’m looking at the fundamental sentence structure: is it subject-verb-object (SVO) like English and Chinese (“I eat the apple”), is it subject-object-verb (SOV) like Japanese (“I the apple eat”), or something else?

Third, the first three sentences expose if the language has much-dreaded noun cases.

In the deconstruction so far, it's looking like Thai is not as difficult of a language to learn as I originally thought (as far as his article goes anyway).

ps: I'm terrible at learning languages, but determined to learn Thai in whatever way I can. Right now, I'm not sure what way is best for me, so I'm going at it from all angles. I've even started a blog in order to force myself to talk it out (too shy to share it here).

[kriswillems]

The word order in Thai is pretty easy for English speaking people. Japanese and Korean people in my classroom had much more problems with the word order. But a language is more than word order only.

[desi]

The word order in Thai is pretty easy for English speaking people. Japanese and Korean people in my classroom had much more problems with the word order.

I spoke a bastardized version of Singlish for years (couldn't resist the rythym), so I'm now wondering what Thai will do to my present sentence structure.

But a language is more than word order only.

Yeeeeeeeeeees

;-)

[learnthaipodcast]

I read on a polyglot site that Thai is considered medium to hard in terms of difficulty for western people. The grammar is easy but of course the pronunciation and vocabulary is very hard to learn.

Many sentences in Thai follow a similar pattern to English and the few exceptions are quiet logical as soon as you have understood the underlying principles.

[desi]

I read on a polyglot site that Thai is considered medium to hard in terms of difficulty for western people. The grammar is easy but of course the pronunciation and vocabulary is very hard to learn.

This is what I read on one of the sites I lurk:

I rate Thai as ****, quite difficult to learn, but not as difficult as some languages (Chinese, Japanese, etc). Thai has five tones and has complex rules governing which sounds use which tones , but the Thai script is easier to learn than Chinese or Japanese because there aren't 2,000 to 3,000 ideographs that you have to learn, and Thais are quite friendly to someone trying to learn their language. I suppose the more difficult task is to have Thais successfully correct your mistakes, because you can get along fairly well while making quite a few.

Time needed: If you are exposed to hearing and seeing Thai for nine months to a year, you will be able to speak and generally understand what is being said and to read signs, but to read and write it properly will take at least another two to three years.

Many sentences in Thai follow a similar pattern to English and the few exceptions are quiet logical as soon as you have understood the underlying principles.

(from what I know so far), I agree with the logic of the patterns.

And the more I'm around the tones, the easier I feel about getting them sussed. It was Benjawan Poomsan Becker’s Thai For Beginners that freaked me at first. She goes straight into making the tones a worrying deal, whereas a toned down approach might be easier on first time learners of the Thai language.

Awhile back I purchased Improving Your Thai Pronunciation (again by Benjawan Poomsan Becker). Although I didn't listen to it at length, it was a help (which reminds me, I need to drag it out again now that everything is not as mysterious as before).

[Kilgore Trout]

I read on a polyglot site that Thai is considered medium to hard in terms of difficulty for western people. The grammar is easy but of course the pronunciation and vocabulary is very hard to learn.

This is what I read on one of the sites I lurk:

I rate Thai as ****, quite difficult to learn, but not as difficult as some languages (Chinese, Japanese, etc). Thai has five tones and has complex rules governing which sounds use which tones , but the Thai script is easier to learn than Chinese or Japanese because there aren't 2,000 to 3,000 ideographs that you have to learn, and Thais are quite friendly to someone trying to learn their language. I suppose the more difficult task is to have Thais successfully correct your mistakes, because you can get along fairly well while making quite a few.

Time needed: If you are exposed to hearing and seeing Thai for nine months to a year, you will be able to speak and generally understand what is being said and to read signs, but to read and write it properly will take at least another two to three years.

Many sentences in Thai follow a similar pattern to English and the few exceptions are quiet logical as soon as you have understood the underlying principles.

(from what I know so far), I agree with the logic of the patterns.

And the more I'm around the tones, the easier I feel about getting them sussed. It was Benjawan Poomsan Becker’s Thai For Beginners that freaked me at first. She goes straight into making the tones a worrying deal, whereas a toned down approach might be easier on first time learners of the Thai language.

Awhile back I purchased Improving Your Thai Pronunciation (again by Benjawan Poomsan Becker). Although I didn't listen to it at length, it was a help (which reminds me, I need to drag it out again now that everything is not as mysterious as before).

What you fail to realize are the cultural implications of learning Thai. First and foremost Thais will not tell you when you do someting wrong; no one is going to correct your Thai or even listen to it; they will just giggle at you. Second, they have no interest in you learning Thai; they will not understand why you want to speak it and will not help you in any way (most people for the most part). Third, although Thais think it is cute when a "falang" can speak a bit of Thai, most of them become immediately OFFENDED when you can actually speak the language well; thats right, they actually become angry and will dislike you simply because you can speak Thai properly. As crazy as this seems it is true; ask anyone who has learned it properly. My Thai is pretty good; what infuriates me the most is Thai people's refusal to use Thai pronouns when speaking to me. They will use the English "you" and "I" and every word in the sentence besides those will be in Thai. It sounds so silly, its hard for me to speak to people this way without asking them why they are using those words, then they look at you like you are crazy for asking them. Bottom line; unless you really really really want to speak Thai, save yourself the headache; very few Thais will ever appreciate your efforts.

[Xangsamhua]

What you fail to realize are the cultural implications of learning Thai. First and foremost Thais will not tell you when you do someting wrong; no one is going to correct your Thai or even listen to it; they will just giggle at you. Second, they have no interest in you learning Thai; they will not understand why you want to speak it and will not help you in any way (most people for the most part). Third, although Thais think it is cute when a "falang" can speak a bit of Thai, most of them become immediately OFFENDED when you can actually speak the language well; thats right, they actually become angry and will dislike you simply because you can speak Thai properly. As crazy as this seems it is true; ask anyone who has learned it properly. My Thai is pretty good; what infuriates me the most is Thai people's refusal to use Thai pronouns when speaking to me. They will use the English "you" and "I" and every word in the sentence besides those will be in Thai. It sounds so silly, its hard for me to speak to people this way without asking them why they are using those words, then they look at you like you are crazy for asking them. Bottom line; unless you really really really want to speak Thai, save yourself the headache; very few Thais will ever appreciate your efforts.

Kilgore, this is your experience. I don't know what your context is, but I work in a Thai and English bilingual environment. Some Thai colleagues prefer to speak to me in Thai, some in English. I'm quite happy to speak to my colleagues and fellow employees in English, but some wouldn't understand and others prefer to speak in Thai. I'm not aware of any Thai people who are offended by me or other non-Thais (Farangs, other Asians, Africans) speaking Thai. Perhaps they would if someone spoke overbearing pidgin Thai in response to their English.

My general rule is to respond in whatever language a person speaks to me in, unless it's obvious that they are really struggling and would much rather speak Thai. The relief on their faces shows me when I've made the right call. If they continue to speak in English I'll speak English too.

[desi]

What you fail to realize are the cultural implications of learning Thai. First and foremost Thais will not tell you when you do someting wrong; no one is going to correct your Thai or even listen to it; they will just giggle at you. Second, they have no interest in you learning Thai; they will not understand why you want to speak it and will not help you in any way (most people for the most part). Third, although Thais think it is cute when a "falang" can speak a bit of Thai, most of them become immediately OFFENDED when you can actually speak the language well; thats right, they actually become angry and will dislike you simply because you can speak Thai properly. As crazy as this seems it is true; ask anyone who has learned it properly. My Thai is pretty good; what infuriates me the most is Thai people's refusal to use Thai pronouns when speaking to me. They will use the English "you" and "I" and every word in the sentence besides those will be in Thai. It sounds so silly, its hard for me to speak to people this way without asking them why they are using those words, then they look at you like you are crazy for asking them. Bottom line; unless you really really really want to speak Thai, save yourself the headache; very few Thais will ever appreciate your efforts.

I might not have the language learning sussed, but after being around Thais since '94, in no way could I (even generalising as you have), match their character with the one you've just posted.

My Thai teacher does not giggle. She pushes. She demands. And when I don't produce, she's disappointed. Very. And of anything, she is offended if I do not take my lessons seriously.

...when you do someting wrong; no one is going to correct your Thai or even listen to it;

You seriously need to travel in the taxis I've been in lately. When I first arrived it was all 'GREAT!'. Now that I've been here for awhile, often my taxi drivers are 15 minute Thai teachers. They make me repeat, repeat, repeat until I get wherever it is right.

Edited July 6, 2008 by desi

[Johpa]

Bottom line; unless you really really really want to speak Thai, save yourself the headache; very few Thais will ever appreciate your efforts.

What eponymous fiction are you living in? I began learning Thai back in 1981. I lived full time in Thailand for over a decade, both in a major city and considerable, actually the majority of that time, in rural areas. After that I was able to spend a few months each year over the next few years at our home in-country. My efforts, both successes and failures, were always, and are to this day, appreciated, despite my waning linguistic abilities. Perhaps the variation in our mileage is that I never spent much time in Bangkok, the least Thai part of the Kingdom and the only city in the Kingdom where I feel like a tourist.

[5tash]

I read on a polyglot site that Thai is considered medium to hard in terms of difficulty for western people. The grammar is easy but of course the pronunciation and vocabulary is very hard to learn.

This is what I read on one of the sites I lurk:

I rate Thai as ****, quite difficult to learn, but not as difficult as some languages (Chinese, Japanese, etc). Thai has five tones and has complex rules governing which sounds use which tones , but the Thai script is easier to learn than Chinese or Japanese because there aren't 2,000 to 3,000 ideographs that you have to learn, and Thais are quite friendly to someone trying to learn their language. I suppose the more difficult task is to have Thais successfully correct your mistakes, because you can get along fairly well while making quite a few.

Time needed: If you are exposed to hearing and seeing Thai for nine months to a year, you will be able to speak and generally understand what is being said and to read signs, but to read and write it properly will take at least another two to three years.

Many sentences in Thai follow a similar pattern to English and the few exceptions are quiet logical as soon as you have understood the underlying principles.

(from what I know so far), I agree with the logic of the patterns.

And the more I'm around the tones, the easier I feel about getting them sussed. It was Benjawan Poomsan Becker's Thai For Beginners that freaked me at first. She goes straight into making the tones a worrying deal, whereas a toned down approach might be easier on first time learners of the Thai language.

Awhile back I purchased Improving Your Thai Pronunciation (again by Benjawan Poomsan Becker). Although I didn't listen to it at length, it was a help (which reminds me, I need to drag it out again now that everything is not as mysterious as before).

What you fail to realize are the cultural implications of learning Thai. First and foremost Thais will not tell you when you do someting wrong; no one is going to correct your Thai or even listen to it; they will just giggle at you. Second, they have no interest in you learning Thai; they will not understand why you want to speak it and will not help you in any way (most people for the most part). Third, although Thais think it is cute when a "falang" can speak a bit of Thai, most of them become immediately OFFENDED when you can actually speak the language well; thats right, they actually become angry and will dislike you simply because you can speak Thai properly. As crazy as this seems it is true; ask anyone who has learned it properly. My Thai is pretty good; what infuriates me the most is Thai people's refusal to use Thai pronouns when speaking to me. They will use the English "you" and "I" and every word in the sentence besides those will be in Thai. It sounds so silly, its hard for me to speak to people this way without asking them why they are using those words, then they look at you like you are crazy for asking them. Bottom line; unless you really really really want to speak Thai, save yourself the headache; very few Thais will ever appreciate your efforts.

I can't believe this attitude comes from someone who teaches at an international school in Thailand. It's a good job that all teachers don't have the same attitude as you about learning another language.

[siamesekitty]

I'm not aware of any Thai people who are offended by me or other non-Thais (Farangs, other Asians, Africans) speaking Thai. Perhaps they would if someone spoke overbearing pidgin Thai in response to their English.

^ What he said

[kriswillems]

The only kind of Thai people that feel disappointed if you can speak Thai are people that work in the tourist sector or in bars, because they know they can get less money out of you. All others appreciate the fact that you can speak a bit Thai.

But I do notice that many Thai people don't understand why a farang would like to study Thai on a higher level. They don't understand why you want to read and write and keep on practising conversation while you can already speak. They have the attitude: "good enough is fine", you don't need to be perfect. I think this the same attitude many Thai people have when they are studying English.

I think studying Thai has been the most rewarding effort I did since I came to Thailand and I would advice everyone that lives here to never stop studying.

[appleman]

For the person who thinks Thai is moderately easy, lots of luck. You're going to need it.

For the person who thinks he can begin learning Thai without those bothersome tones, you're kidding yourself. If you know 100 words in Thai with their correct tones you will be more understood than one who knows 10,000 words in Thai without their correct tones. When I told Benjawan Becker this she said, "Well, at least a couple of thousand anyway." That is why she concentrates on tones. She wants her students to be understood.

Thais will always say that your Thai is great even when they don't undestand a word you are saying.

My wife has been teaching Thai (at a US university and a private language school) for more than 20 years. She emphasizes tones for the first few weeks of class. Her students come to Thailand and their Thai is understood. Having a good base is the best way to start. This is not so true for the student who does not concentrate on tones.

Stop trying to skip the hard parts. Learn your tones and be understood here instead of just having people smile at you and laugh behind your back. I saw this first hand when a guy's Thai wife and her teenaged daughter were laughing hysterically in the corner of the room listening to his attempts to speak Thai. When I asked what they were laughing about they told me that he has never said one Thai word correctly (meaning the tones and many vowel sounds). When I told this guy what they had just said he was incredulous. All this time he thought he was getting it right because they told him how well he spoke.

You will be able to speak Thai but not if you take any short cuts.

Good luck.