Nirvana; Is It Heaven (or God)?

[Xangsamhua]

The Buddha would not usually be drawn to speculate about mysteries; however, he spoke of nirvana as the highest happiness, a state of bliss, perfect peace etc.

Edward Conze, in Buddhism, Its Essence and Development, is quoted as having said that the Buddhist texts tell us "that Nirvana is permanent, stable, imperishable, immovable, ageless, deathless, unborn and unbecome, that it is power, bliss and happiness .... the real Truth and the supreme Reality; that it is the Good, the supreme goal and the one and only consummation of our life, the eternal, hidden and incomprehensible peace."

Is this any different from other religions' idea of heaven, or perhaps God in the non-personifying sense? And did the Buddha actually attain Nirvana and forgo it in order to return as a bodhisattva, or had he attained enlightenment, an awareness of Nirvana, but did not actually experience nirvanic bliss before his final parinirvana?

[Samuian]

it's the "me" that asks and because of it, it can't attain nirvana, go beyond this "me", leave it completely and you attain nibbana!

No more questions!?

Edited July 5, 2008 by Samuian

[Brucenkhamen]

The Buddha would not usually be drawn to speculate about mysteries; however, he spoke of nirvana as the highest happiness, a state of bliss, perfect peace etc.

Edward Conze, in Buddhism, Its Essence and Development, is quoted as having said that the Buddhist texts tell us "that Nirvana is permanent, stable, imperishable, immovable, ageless, deathless, unborn and unbecome, that it is power, bliss and happiness .... the real Truth and the supreme Reality; that it is the Good, the supreme goal and the one and only consummation of our life, the eternal, hidden and incomprehensible peace."

Is this any different from other religions' idea of heaven, or perhaps God in the non-personifying sense? And did the Buddha actually attain Nirvana and forgo it in order to return as a bodhisattva, or had he attained enlightenment, an awareness of Nirvana, but did not actually experience nirvanic bliss before his final parinirvana?

These definitions given by Thanissaro in Wings to Awakening I think are on the mark;

Nibbana: Literally, the "unbinding" of the mind from passion, aversion, and delusion, and from the entire round of death and rebirth. As this term also denotes the extinguishing of a fire, it carries connotations of stilling, cooling, and peace. "Total nibbana" in some contexts denotes the experience of Awakening; in others, the final passing away of an Arahant. Sanskrit form: nirvana.

Unbinding: Because nibbana is used to denote not only the Buddhist goal, but also the extinguishing of a fire, it is usually rendered as "extinguishing" or, even worse, "extinction." However, a study of ancient Indian views of the workings of fire (see The Mind Like Fire Unbound) will reveal that people of the Buddha's time felt that a fire, in going out, did not go out of existence but was simply freed from its agitation and attachment to its fuel. Thus, when applied to the Buddhist goal, the primary connotation of nibbana is one of release and liberation. According to the commentaries, the literal meaning of the word nibbana is "unbinding," and as this is a rare case where the literal and contextual meanings of a term coincide, this seems to be the ideal English equivalent.

Doesn't sound like any description of heavan I've ever heard.

And did the Buddha actually attain Nirvana and forgo it in order to return as a bodhisattva, or had he attained enlightenment, an awareness of Nirvana, but did not actually experience nirvanic bliss before his final parinirvana?

I would think if there was such a teaching around it would be Mahayana and I don't see the term bliss in the definition above, I'm not sure it's an appropriate adjective for nirvana or parinirvana, but we can only speculate.

[camerata]

Is this any different from other religions' idea of heaven, or perhaps God in the non-personifying sense? And did the Buddha actually attain Nirvana and forgo it in order to return as a bodhisattva, or had he attained enlightenment, an awareness of Nirvana, but did not actually experience nirvanic bliss before his final parinirvana?

According to the scholars, it's only in the Mahayana tradition that a bodhisattva turns away from nirvana (before, not after) and is therefore able to move on to other lives and other realms, periodically coming back to help people, and ultimately attaining "buddhahood." In the Theravada tradition, the Buddha (and any other arahant) attains nirvana and when he dies, that's the end - he's "extinguished."

I don't know where the English term "the eternal bliss of nirvana" comes from, but it seems highly misleading to me.

[Xangsamhua]

Thank you for your responses. I'm sorry I don't have the page reference for the Conze quote. It appears in Huston Smith's "The World's Religions" (1991, 115) and is from the 1951 edition of Conze's book, but the page number is not given. I've been reading the Smith book lately and have found the several books of his that I've read quite helpful. He approaches his subjects with great respect. Conze was a well known scholar of Buddhism (and a Buddhist), so I've assumed he's on the ball.

The quoted description of Nirvana/Nibbana is obviously unlike the heaven of angels, harps, choruses, flowing streams, ever-attentive houris and the like; however, no serious theologian or student of religion would regard such descriptions as anything more than metaphors for the ineffable.

I was not sure if the bodhisattva idea is solely Mahayana or whether it is just given much more emphasis in that tradition. Are any contributors to this sub-forum followers of Mahayana schools or is it, being Thailand-based, a Theravada forum? I am interested in both schools, my left brain favouring the "lesser" vehicle, but the right side drawn to the "greater" one.

I liked Samuian's response for its cogent brevity. It sounded rather Zen to me, but I suppose it's simply Buddhism.

[mikethevigoman]

Isnt it a dead rock singer ?

[Shotime]

Nirvana sounds a little boring to me. Is metempsychosis the same thing as reincarnation? It sounds more interesting than either place. Is is Buddhist? Is their some way to engineer yourself into the life you'd like to have next? No kidding.

[garro]

I like to think of Nirvana as just no longer becoming. The end.

[rychrde]

The description as quoted is pretty much the same as exists in the western esoteric literature as the quintessence or philosopher's stone, or many other obscuring names. According to Dzogchen it can be achieved in the here and now and has nothing to do with monotheisms' dualistic end of times - surely hugely ironic how a monotheism ends up being fundamentally dualistic. Descriptions are necessarily difficult - any of you who have experienced altered states will know that describing them to anybody who has not had the experience can be... trying.

Anyway, has bugger all to do with heaven and hel_l. If you want a western perspective read the neoplatonic alchemists. On second thought, they are more difficult to understand than Buddhism, but worth seeing the same ideas in western garb. Or read Jung as he brought together all the themes.

It is, however, important that words signify the same things to different people, so the only way to verify the meaning is to reproduce the experience.

[rockyysdt]

The Buddha would not usually be drawn to speculate about mysteries; however, he spoke of nirvana as the highest happiness, a state of bliss, perfect peace etc.

Edward Conze, in Buddhism, Its Essence and Development, is quoted as having said that the Buddhist texts tell us "that Nirvana is permanent, stable, imperishable, immovable, ageless, deathless, unborn and unbecome, that it is power, bliss and happiness .... the real Truth and the supreme Reality; that it is the Good, the supreme goal and the one and only consummation of our life, the eternal, hidden and incomprehensible peace."

Is this any different from other religions' idea of heaven, or perhaps God in the non-personifying sense?

And did the Buddha actually attain Nirvana and forgo it in order to return as a bodhisattva, or had he attained enlightenment, an awareness of Nirvana, but did not actually experience nirvanic bliss before his final parinirvana?

In many religions you enter God's heaven as one of his fold.

My thoughts on Nirvanna are:

Emancipation from ignorance and the extinction of all attachment including bliss and happiness.

We are already there but our ego has no awareness of this.

Having a finite human veneer with ego, we cannot begin to comprehend nirvana or infinity without awareness.

How could happiness and bliss even remotely approach infinity?

Once liberated our egoless core reunites (nirvanna).

Buddha may have reunited but reappeared to teach.

Edited July 6, 2008 by camerata
Fixed broken quote.

[Shotime]

It sounds either like being really dead (finito) or taking acid.

Edited July 6, 2008 by camerata
Off-topic comments deleted. Stay on topic, please.

[dutchguest]

As far as I have understood heaven is a metafysical idea, a place outside the fysical world where people can go after their death.

Nirvana is a state of mind that every person can achieve during his lifetime (by living according to the buddhist prescripts).

I don't see buddhism as a religion but more as a practical filosofy, that tries to give some direction to people in their life.

The parallel between christian heaven and buddhist nirvana is that they both promise happyness, or at least an end of all suffering, if you behave in a certain way.

In the west traditionally people tend to look more to the outerworld, try to change the nature for the benefit of man, while the east is looking more to the innerworld, tries to get insight, a better understanding.

In the psychoanalysis east and west can meat (and also in all kind of other spiritual movements). Psychoanalyse made necessary in the west because the outward look was too restricted and did not solve the problems people experienced. There are many parallels between psychoanalysis to stop mental suffering and the buddhist way. (see the books of the American psychoanalist A.Lowen).

[dutchguest]

It is one of biggest religion in world. followers believe very deeply. i also think no one can challenge this. whole thailand have faith.

_____________________

veny

Our standpoints don't have to be contradictory.

What I mean when I say that I see buddhism more as a filosofy then as a religion is that there don't have to be anything supernatural or any miracles in buddhism in my conception of it. Buddhism stays so to say with both feet on the ground and when there is something that can't be experienced it is rejected.

It is theoretically more a science then a belief. The practice of buddhism in Thailand is an other story. It plays at the moment a very big social and psychological role; together with the monarchy it has e.g. a strong unifying function.

[Samuian]

.....

The quoted description of Nirvana/Nibbana is obviously unlike the heaven of angels, harps, choruses, flowing streams, ever-attentive houris and the like; however, no serious theologian or student of religion would regard such descriptions as anything more than metaphors for the ineffable.

I was not sure if the bodhisattva idea is solely Mahayana or whether it is just given much more emphasis in that tradition. Are any contributors to this sub-forum followers of Mahayana schools or is it, being Thailand-based, a Theravada forum? I am interested in both schools, my left brain favouring the "lesser" vehicle, but the right side drawn to the "greater" one.

I liked Samuian's response for its cogent brevity. It sounded rather Zen to me, but I suppose it's simply Buddhism.

Thanks!

Zen to me is the "no frills" way - for some too intellectual - I don't know why, I think it's as simple as a cup of tea, but then...

However the only "link" to the idea of "heaven" I have come across is the word "tushita"

to keep things simple I quote the wikipedia:

"Tuṣita (Sanskrit) or Tusita (Pāli) is one of the six deva-worlds of the Kāmadhātu, located between the Yāma heaven and the Nirmāṇarati heaven. Like the other heavens, Tuṣita is said to be reachable through meditation. It is the heaven where the Bodhisattva Śvetaketu (Pāli: Setaketu, "White Banner") resided before being reborn on Earth as Gautama, the historical Buddha; it is, likewise, the heaven where the Bodhisattva Nātha ("Protector") currently resides, who will later be born as the next Buddha, Maitreya.

The mothers of all Bodhisattvas die seven days after the last birth of the Buddha-to-be and are reborn in Tuṣita, as did Queen Maya.

Mahayana View:

The Tuṣita heaven is therefore closely associated with Maitreya, and many Buddhists vow to be reborn there so that they can hear the teachings of the Bodhisattva and ultimately be reborn with him when he becomes a Buddha. It has been compared to the Pure Land of Amitābha, but has definite differences: Tuṣita is only one of many heavens within a single world-system, while the Pure Land is a whole world system; Tuṣita is part of the same world-system as our Earth, and so is relatively close, while the Pure Land is very distant. On the other hand, the Bodhisattva vows of Amitābha are much more comprehensive than those of Maitreya."

Hope this explains your question, or brings at least some light into it!

On other occasions these "heavens" are called "plans", we call them maybe temporary "stations" on the path, but as of my knowledge this idea is only cherished in the Mahayana and Vajrayana School Traditions.

And not to get too much carried away by these very "flowery", prosaic expansions of the teachings, I consider these "stories" as painting, decorative parts of the whole.

However, to follow the basic principles as with the flame being detached, of understanding that the world is as we perceive it, is a result of our conditioning and not AS IS!

Many other Philosophers have picked up this view and has been "tackled" by people like Arthur Schopenhauer (The World as Will and Representation), Hume, Kant, or more "modern" Krishnamurti ('Truth is a pathless land'), Aurobindo (Life Divine) to name just a few, which I think have shown very well, what it is all about!

One excerpt from Krishnamurtis teachingss - I personally like a lot:

......"The brain has been trained to record for in that recording there is safety, security, a sense of vitality; in that recording the mind creates the image about oneself. And that image will constantly get hurt. Is it possible to live without a single image about yourself, or about your husband, wife, children, or about the politicians, the priests, or about the ideal? It is possible, and if it is not found you will always be getting hurt, always living in a pattern in which there is no freedom. When you give complete attention there is no recording......."

reminds me on Nibbana....Meditation...or sweeping the floor..

Edited July 9, 2008 by Samuian

[whatsoever]

It is one of biggest religion in world. followers believe very deeply. i also think no one can challenge this. whole thailand have faith.

_____________________

veny

Some believe deeply, some a little. Anyone can challange a theology. In todays Thailand far less peole have faith, understand, or practice the precepts of Bhuddism.

[IMA_FARANG]

The Buddha would not usually be drawn to speculate about mysteries; however, he spoke of nirvana as the highest happiness, a state of bliss, perfect peace etc.

Edward Conze, in Buddhism, Its Essence and Development, is quoted as having said that the Buddhist texts tell us "that Nirvana is permanent, stable, imperishable, immovable, ageless, deathless, unborn and unbecome, that it is power, bliss and happiness .... the real Truth and the supreme Reality; that it is the Good, the supreme goal and the one and only consummation of our life, the eternal, hidden and incomprehensible peace."

Is this any different from other religions' idea of heaven, or perhaps God in the non-personifying sense? And did the Buddha actually attain Nirvana and forgo it in order to return as a bodhisattva, or had he attained enlightenment, an awareness of Nirvana, but did not actually experience nirvanic bliss before his final parinirvana?

Nirvana is not a place that you go to. Therefore is not like the idea of a heaven place that you go to after you die.

I suppose it is closer to say that Nirvana is a condition that you achieve. It is supposed to be a condition of peace and happiness. It is a condition of the cessation of suffering.

[ashish2489]

NIRVANA IS THE THE SEARCH OF GOD.

WHEN YOU FIND THAT U R FREE FROM THE CYCLE OF THE MATERIALISTIC THING AND ARE FREE FROM THEM AND CAN PURSUE THE ACT OF GOD IN AGOOD AND FREELY WAY...............THAT IS NIRVANA..............

[Brucenkhamen]

NIRVANA IS THE THE SEARCH OF GOD.

WHEN YOU FIND THAT U R FREE FROM THE CYCLE OF THE MATERIALISTIC THING AND ARE FREE FROM THEM AND CAN PURSUE THE ACT OF GOD IN AGOOD AND FREELY WAY...............THAT IS NIRVANA..............

... and free from any need to shout.

[Pakeha]

The Buddha would not usually be drawn to speculate about mysteries; however, he spoke of nirvana as the highest happiness, a state of bliss, perfect peace etc.

Edward Conze, in Buddhism, Its Essence and Development, is quoted as having said that the Buddhist texts tell us "that Nirvana is permanent, stable, imperishable, immovable, ageless, deathless, unborn and unbecome, that it is power, bliss and happiness .... the real Truth and the supreme Reality; that it is the Good, the supreme goal and the one and only consummation of our life, the eternal, hidden and incomprehensible peace."

Is this any different from other religions' idea of heaven, or perhaps God in the non-personifying sense? And did the Buddha actually attain Nirvana and forgo it in order to return as a bodhisattva, or had he attained enlightenment, an awareness of Nirvana, but did not actually experience nirvanic bliss before his final parinirvana?

Ironically, intellectualizing this topic takes you further from discovering what nirvana 'is'. Try schopenhauers sublime from the world as will and representation...

[jamesc2000]

NIRVANA IS THE THE SEARCH OF GOD.

WHEN YOU FIND THAT U R FREE FROM THE CYCLE OF THE MATERIALISTIC THING AND ARE FREE FROM THEM AND CAN PURSUE THE ACT OF GOD IN AGOOD AND FREELY WAY...............THAT IS NIRVANA..............

The search for God sounds like duality!

Find - not find, free - not free, materialism - spiritualism, pursue - not pursue, good way - bad way, free way - unfree way.

I could be wrong but I think Nirvana is not about duality!

[jamesc2000]

Ironically, intellectualizing this topic takes you further from discovering what nirvana 'is'. Try schopenhauers sublime from the world as will and representation...

I always thot the beauty of Buddhism is that there is nothing that cannot be discussed.

The only time I hear that something should not be discussed is when the person does not know the answer!

[fabianfred]

Nirvana is the ultimate ....it is what we are meant to try and achieve whilst we are in this present human realm, because we are in the best position to reach it. Knowing both pleasure and suffering, having the Buddhas teachings to guide us, seeing the truth of impermanence. All of the Buddhas teachings were directed at trying to teach people to practise their lives in a way to achieve the state of Nirvana.

Even when there are no Buddhas to point the way, beings are reborn in the hells or heavens according to their karma. But only when a Buddha re-discovers the truth of Nirvana and the path to it, can beings, following his way, achieve that state.

Pondering how it is in the state of Nirvana, what it is like...is pointless because we can never know, until we reach it, and was warned from doing so by the Buddha, in case it led to madness. Trying to know the unknowable...Nirvana....the beginning of the world or the universe....the state of a buddha or arahant once they had passed on from their final human existances.

When on the path to try and achieve Nirvana, we should realise that peace is the most pleasant feeling. Not pleasure or suffering, but the simple absence of both.... equanamity and a neutral feeling without either extremes of pleasure or pain.

[RedneckHippie]

Nirvana, god, heaven, the infinite source, whatever you'd like to call it is possible to glimpse in the physical body since it is the true nature of reality that we are a part of. The experience is universal and has been recorded throughout thousands of years from various religions. Hindus would call it god-union, merging with Brahman, Tibetan buddhist would call it the light of the void, other buddhist would call it ego death, the christian st. agustine called it the heaven of heavens.

All describe an experience similar to this.... Once one is able to move past ego-thinking ego-death occurs, where you stop thinking that you are seperate from everything, insight reavels to you that you are unified with everything. Many report seeing the most beautiful golden or white light around the pineal gland, aka the crown chakra. This is beyond all conceptual thinking, it is just the pure truth. The person in this experience knows this light to be the source of all things, god if you will. He knows that this is infinite, beyond time and space and unchangeable and that everyone and everything is a part of this source. One knows that this is his true form, not clouded by the delusion of the ego. The person experiencing this is overflowing with the purest of love, compassion and bliss, it is so powerful and pure.

Now having such an experience does not mean the person becomes enlightened, he was just able to become aware of the true nature of reality, after the experience the ego can take hold again, but the person who experienced it will never be the same as before.

I myself am at a crossroads, about six months ago I took some moshka medicine which helped me experience ego death, I think I verbalized the experienced fairly well. ....Well anyhow afterwards I became convinced of the infinite source existence, that the pure truth does exist beyond the ego, and this is very empowering and encouraging, And I have noticed over the last few months how I am able to see much more clearly my silly egotisms. However I have become greedy in my meditation. Usually in my meditation I just detach from myself and observe what is going on in my braintool, I have never really done any breathing meditation I have just practiced detachment. Now though more often than not I notice that I am just greedy for experiencing that blissful god-union, and even when I recognize these greedy thoughts they continue to haunt me. Does anyone have any advice for casting aside this greed? Now I know detachment is about recognizing your wants and needs and just seperating yourself from them, which is what I'm trying to do. I think I can only get over this with more time and patience, any advice?

[Brucenkhamen]

All describe an experience similar to this.... Once one is able to move past ego-thinking ego-death occurs, where you stop thinking that you are seperate from everything, insight reavels to you that you are unified with everything. Many report seeing the most beautiful golden or white light around the pineal gland, aka the crown chakra. This is beyond all conceptual thinking, it is just the pure truth. The person in this experience knows this light to be the source of all things, god if you will. He knows that this is infinite, beyond time and space and unchangeable and that everyone and everything is a part of this source. One knows that this is his true form, not clouded by the delusion of the ego. The person experiencing this is overflowing with the purest of love, compassion and bliss, it is so powerful and pure.

Now having such an experience does not mean the person becomes enlightened, he was just able to become aware of the true nature of reality, after the experience the ego can take hold again, but the person who experienced it will never be the same as before.

What you describe, particularly because it's impermanent, sounds more like what is called Jhana in Buddhist terminology. Though I wouldn't attempt to describe something I haven't experienced so can only go by the descriptions of others.

Nibbana aka Nirvana aka enlightenment by contrast is permanent as it goes beyond the 3 characteristics.

[fabianfred]

It is said that those who are making good progress in their meditation and getting close to the point of 'crossing over' to become a sotapanna, will start to catch glimpses of Nirvana. Only when they reach arahant will they be there...but as a Sotapanna one one would experience more and more or Nirvana as time goes on, as one's practise leads one into the next stage, Sagdagami, Anagami......

[camerata]

Is this any different from other religions' idea of heaven, or perhaps God in the non-personifying sense?

It's worth having a look at the Pali dictionary definition of nibbana/nirvana:

"Nibbāna: Sanskrit nirvāna lit. 'ceasing' nir + Ö va to cease blowing, to become extinguished; according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' nir+ vana Nibbāna constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute ceasing of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and confusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery."

So a prerequisite for nibbana is that one has ceased clinging to existence. This seems very different from the idea of heaven, in which one clings to immortal existence in the presence of God.

[rockyysdt]

Is this any different from other religions' idea of heaven, or perhaps God in the non-personifying sense?

It's worth having a look at the Pali dictionary definition of nibbana/nirvana:

"Nibbāna: Sanskrit nirvāna lit. 'ceasing' nir + Ö va to cease blowing, to become extinguished; according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' nir+ vana Nibbāna constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute ceasing of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and confusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery."

So a prerequisite for nibbana is that one has ceased clinging to existence. This seems very different from the idea of heaven, in which one clings to immortal existence in the presence of God.

Although these things must take place to achieve "the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery", perhaps all is not revealed.

It has been said that we are already enlightened, we just aren't aware of it.

My thought is that we are all part of everything (universe, infinity, God, heaven, all knowing, all seeing, timeless), and our physical selves are finite manifistations in time and space, with no awareness of the greater.

[camerata]

It has been said that we are already enlightened, we just aren't aware of it.

Only by Mahayanists, Rocky. Think about it... what good is enlightenment if we aren't aware of it and aren't experiencing it?

Edit// Actually, I think the Mahayana idea is not so much that we are already enlightened but that we have Buddha nature and all we have to do is realize it to become enlightened. The Theravada idea is that our mind is full of defilements which must be cleared away before we can attain enlightenment.

[Brucenkhamen]

Only by Mahayanists, Rocky. Think about it... what good is enlightenment if we aren't aware of it and aren't experiencing it?

Edit// Actually, I think the Mahayana idea is not so much that we are already enlightened but that we have Buddha nature and all we have to do is realize it to become enlightened.

Whether it's true or not in absolute terms doesn't matter, I think it's a good attitude to have, hopefully it reduces the idea that I'm striving to gain or achieve enlightenment that is something that's out there, after all the need to gain/achieve something that I don't have is the major cause of suffering.

[camerata]

Rather than being a matter of truth, I think the two ideas are just different strategies for achieving the same end. The way I see the Theravada approach is that nibbana is "in there" rather than "out there." It's a pure state of being that is obscured (or perhaps corrupted) by mental defilements. There is considerable effort involved in removing those defilements but ultimately we are trying to reach something we already have. Kind of like clearing the cobwebs off an old mirror so you can see yourself clearly.