Is There A Serious Flaw In Padi Dive Training ?

[percy2]

Just to open a can of worms.

Every experienced (more than 100 dives) diver I have seen diving (be they instructor of whichever association or not) practices breath holding while diving

Cheers

[froggshw]

"Just to open a can of worms."

I would close that can here and now...for the sake of confusion of noob divers...!!!

It's a bit like diving alone..we dont speak of it.

Froggs

[12DrinkMore]

According to PADI what are the limits on visibility / current speed / water temperature for 2 newly qualified open water divers to rely on each others air supply?

PADI is a training agency and only specify limits and requirements in the training environment. What happens outside of this neither PADI nor any other agency has any control over.

The recommendation is that you only dive within the limits of your training and diving experience.

[britmaveric]

"Just to open a can of worms."

I would close that can here and now...for the sake of confusion of noob divers...!!!

It's a bit like diving alone..we dont speak of it.

Froggs

Free diving sort of ruins this as well, but personally think these lads are mental.

[percy2]

According to PADI what are the limits on visibility / current speed / water temperature for 2 newly qualified open water divers to rely on each others air supply?

PADI is a training agency and only specify limits and requirements in the training environment. What happens outside of this neither PADI nor any other agency has any control over.

The recommendation is that you only dive within the limits of your training and diving experience.

So is there a way to know if a dive is within your training and experience?

If there is no way of knowing should we all quit diving?

Cheers

[percy2]

"Just to open a can of worms."

I would close that can here and now...for the sake of confusion of noob divers...!!!

It's a bit like diving alone..we dont speak of it.

Froggs

Why don't you speak about it?

Is it like not giving children sex education but keeping your fingers crossed nobody gets pregnant or an STD?

Cheers

[froggshw]

Brit

I dont think Percy was refering to Free diving..

If you understand anything about saturation of nitrogen in tissue types Percy..like blood and bones,then I would recommend that you dont use this technique.

Froggs

[12DrinkMore]

Just to open a can of worms.

Every experienced (more than 100 dives) diver I have seen diving (be they instructor of whichever association or not) practices breath holding while diving

Cheers

UNBELIEVABLY STUPID and RECKLESS post.

That post should be removed immediately. It is totally incorrect and could encourage someone to hold their breath on SCUBA.

I don't mind the odd troll looking for a reaction, but to post statements that could lead to someone's PERMANENT DISABILITY OR EVEN DEATH is utterly irresponsible.

NEVER HOLD YOUR BREATH WHEN USING SCUBA, there is no circumstance you need to do this.

[percy2]

No need to SHOUT!

There is nothing wrong with holding your breath under water unless you do it while making a change in depth.

Are you going to argue like froggshw that it might lead to decompression sickness

You are scare scaremongering.

Cheers

[thaibutty]

HI everybody before there are any questions on my experience: I am diving instructorPADI,CMAS, SSI, TDI Advanced Trimix Diver, more than 2000 logged dives.

The ability of a diver has nothing to do with the training organization one has been trained but with the instructor. IMO the level of divers is getting worse and worse over the years because all of the training organizations are looking for money only. A novice divers will be pushed into courses and courses so he will finally be an instructor himself. All those instructors have as experience after 100 dives is diving with another instructor who is taking care of them. Where is the real divng world experience? If your learning to drive a car or how to fly an airplane would you like to learn from soeone who has done this "already" 100 times with his instructor?

About the running out of air situation: A diver who is checking his equipment before the dive, having a look at the pressure gauge to make sure the tank is full and while under water checking the gauges frequently can't run out of air. If you have a equipment failure your regular will start to free flow or you have a leaking at your tank or one of the whoses is leaking(you wish it's not your LPhose) you still get air so you can either swim to your buddy to get the air or you are able to end your dive alone but while still breathing. Bit soebody has to learn these procedures and practise them regularly to be able to perform them in a real situation. The way of doing an emergency ascent is defenitly the worst alternative because getting DCI is always possible even when diving in the Limits(different to stated here before). The best way of course would be if every diver would have their own spare tank with them to be redundant. But therefore either the training organizations have to change their regulations(so all instructors teach the same way ) or the divers have to come with the initiative themselves by educating themselves, what most divers probably won't do.

[thaibutty]

No need to SHOUT!

There is nothing wrong with holding your breath under water unless you do it while making a change in depth.

Are you going to argue like froggshw that it might lead to decompression sickness

You are scare scaremongering.

Cheers

Totally correct, the only reason why you shouldn't hold your breath is because of the risk of a lung overexpansion injury and this can only happen while ascending and holding your breath. But if you do hold your breath it is possible to get serious problems if you hold your breath and ascend even if its just a couple of meters

[percy2]

The best way of course would be if every diver would have their own spare tank with them to be redundant. But therefore either the training organizations have to change their regulations(so all instructors teach the same way ) or the divers have to come with the initiative themselves by educating themselves, what most divers probably won't do.

Well said!

Cheers

[12DrinkMore]

No need to SHOUT!

There is nothing wrong with holding your breath under water unless you do it while making a change in depth.

There are no circumstances you would need to do it, and even a small change in depth could lead to an injury.

Are you going to argue like froggshw that it might lead to decompression sickness

No, I didn't understand that post either, but it doesn't propagate false information which could be dangerous.

You are scare scaremongering.

No, I am advocating safe diving practises, in line with ALL training agencies.

It would only take one inexperienced diver who read your post and decided to try it, the "boring safety stop" might be a good time, eh? So takes a full breath at 5 metres, held it and with the increased buoyancy from the air volume in his/her lungs rose up just 1 metre. 20% lung overexpansion with the ensuing consequences. And people are that stupid.

[Jai Dee]

As an experienced and qualified diver myself, and as a moderator of this forum, I would respectfully request that contributers to this thread desist from making trollish posts.

Posts about diving alone or holding one's breath are (as we all should know) against what our training has taught us... and only serve to raise dissent on the forum.

Please stay on topic and cut out the troll posts.

Thank you.

[percy2]

Jai Dee,

I would respectfully point out that solo diving is not against my training, I have been specifically trained and certified to do it.

As for holding your breath surely we can have a reasonable discussion about it.

The trollish post are coming from the opposite direction.

Cheers

[Jai Dee]

Percy, between you and 12DrinkMore trying to wind each other up, the topic as posted by Skippy was about running out of air (at what depth or circumstances is still unknown) and advocating the use of a spare air cylinder... not diving alone (trained or untrained) which has nothing to do with the subject matter. It should not be a breast-beating thread either... with people trying to prove themselves more qualified or experienced than others.

So please undestand that and get back on topic.

Personally, I always carry my spare air - an approximately 400mm long container complete with mouthpiece, and good for about 8-10 lungfuls at 20m depth. I just clip it to the side of my BCD so it doesn't interfere with my photographic work or other recreational diving activities.

I'm not sure what depths it's rated for, as I rarely go deeper then 30m as the colours tend to fade and make for washed out looking photographs.

I'm with Skip... everybody should have one.

[nidhogg]

the topic as posted by Skippy was about running out of air

Seemed to be a large leap right from the start. The OP stated the person was found 8 mins into a dive, on the surface - with no equipment. A strange set of circumstances to say the least. Given that we also do not know that the guy was a trained diver (thats not been stated as far as i can see) or any other circumstances such as possible max depth etc whether the equipment was recovered etc all the breast beating and posturing seems a tad premature.

[12DrinkMore]

For Skippy...

Here we go again, out of personal interest I found on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes

Total lung capacity (TLC) = 6.0 Litres

Functional Residual Capacity = 2.4 Litres (The amount of air that stays in the lungs during normal breathing)

So at 20 metres, even in the "best" situation that you have just exhaled and have only the residual capacity left in your lungs, an ascent with breath held will result in the 2.4 litres expanding to 7.2 Litres at the surface.

So yes, this is more than enough to overfill your lungs by 20%.

And I disaagree with the premise you will exhale and then on the next inhalation have absolutely no air from the tank, it will surely be somewhere between nothing and just under a full breath, on average a half breath. So the situation is even worse.

When diving I tend to breath in more deeply but do not forcefully exhale past the Functional Residual Capacity.

I will definitely not be holding my breath if I was ever in this situation and I strongly recommend that nobody else does too.

[percy2]

Been diving for yonks, and remember vaugely the " swim holding your breath test ".

My brother-in-law's friend died a few days back in Melbourne, still not clear about why other than he was found floating on the surface with no gear 8 mins into the dive.

Reason why i ask "flawed?" is cause we breath in, and then out, and then in, and then out and THEN - <deleted>, no air !. So when ur at that inhaling point, there is virtually no air in your lungs -see how far you make it now on a empty set of lungs.

Kinda gives one a false sense of security cause u can swim as far as you think.

Since i dive with a pony bottle, ( or mini tank with reg ) , kinda makes me appreciate it more now.

Everyone should have one !

Yes I think the PADI (and other assc.) training is flawed.

I think the flaw is the buddy system.

Everybody should be self sufficient when they dive, a redundant air supply should be a mandatory piece of equipment.

Should anybody wish to be self sufficient when they dive I suggest the SDI solo diving course as a good start.

Sorry to hear about you brother in laws mate.

Cheers

[froggshw]

Nowhere in my posts did I mention Decompression sickness....read them again

Nowhere did I mention it was a good idea to hold your breath....read them again

As for arguing with anyone...I'm too placid by nature

Happy diving..!!

Froggs

[skippybangkok]

NEVER HOLD YOUR BREATH WHEN USING SCUBA, there is no circumstance you need to do this.

THERE IS A CIRCUMSTANCE when one might need to do it . For some one so experienced and knows it all, i am surprised. I hold my breath regularly to be honest

- Take a full frame picture with a 105mm lens with 2x or 3x macro extender. Love to see you do it breathing. Impossible i say ! Take any pic of pygmy seahorses, small shrimps on sponges or other weird macro animals, and there's a breath holding diver guaranteed ! Every photographer i know to date is still alive and kicking. ( ok - you got me we are not moving at all and are anchored to the ground during the pic.).

Percy summed it up nicely, and i would re-itterate - my preference is :-

1st Air Source - main tank

2nd Air Source - my "buddy" on my back who follows everywhere, me is no less than 30 cm away from me at all times (my little spare), and will never fight me for air.

3rd Air Source - a buddy who maybe not be around or obliging at times

BRIT- Percy gave a good cost. I have the set up he is talking about, and also a "Spare Air" which has less capacity, but will get you up safely from about 25 meters. The Spare Air is less messing around, and is about 9k baht ( Spare Air looks less techie to other divers who think ur a real prat with the double tank and reg - who cares what people think - its my life ! ).

I don't advocate or promote solo diving, but I sure as Hehll say that what they teach u there would be valuable to any buddy diver.

[skippybangkok]

In fact - I can remember this one like it was yesterday

31 meters, buffeting currents / Lembeh Straights - suspended on a rock face

105mm lens and Double Macro at full power ( 5mm(?) Sea horse - full frame picture )

Did i hold my breath - you bet.

[limbos]

I think the point is that if you have no air and you are not close to your buddy then obviously you have to swim upwards. Although you may have minimal air in your lungs at depth as you get shallower the air in your lungs expands thus filling your lungs thus giving you a more constant amount of air. If however you hold your breath you run the risk of the expanding air damaging your lungs that cant cope with the increased air volume in them

OK.......i know the theory, just messing around..lets run some numbers then.........

lets say ur at 20 meters = 3 atm.

healthy set of lungs = 4 liters at 1 atm

when breath out - how much is left in your lungs ? ( 1 liter ? )

So, 1 ltr @ 20 meters would expand on the way up........ will it fill up lungs ?

Like i said, the most likely scenario of being out of air is when you have breathed out, and now realize "oh <deleted>" and make a dash for it.As such, not much air.

Did not know the guy, but he was my brother in laws friend. Cause of death was listed as embolism creates by hole in the heart ( which he never knew he had ). Although tragic, i believe it consoled the family some what.

Buddy - i don't know, but lets face it, the more experience you get, the more you drift off.

BRIT - get yourself a spare air, or a 2nd small bottle (i.e. 30cm high ) with 2nd Reg - makes one feel tons more comfortable, and you enjoy your dive more ( less worry - more enjoyment).

Did everybody conveniently forget to mention the cause of death, most likely a PFO or Patent Foramen Ovale a helath issue that 15 to 20% of the general population have and not necessarily has to lead to embolisms during diving but can lead to an embolism and in this case even to a tragic death.

In short, from the article:

During fetal development, the heart’s two upper chambers (atria) are connected by a hole through the wall of muscle that separates them (septum). This hole, along with a blood vessel connecting the pulmonary artery (artery going to the lungs) and the aorta (the main artery going to the body), must be present in the fetus in order to detour blood away from the lungs. Without these two connections the fetus would not survive and a miscarriage often occurs. This hole is called the foramen ovale, and it normally closes shortly after birth. When it remains open after birth, it is said to be “patent,” which is another away of saying “open.”

Also from the article, on page 5;

Scuba diving and PFO

People with a patent foramen ovale (PFO) may be at slightly greater risk of decompression sickness – a potentially fatal condition associated with scuba diving. Normally, gas bubbles travel through the veins during decompression. In individuals with a PFO, however, gas bubbles can travel from the right side of the heart to the left side and out to the rest of the body. When these gas bubbles travel through the arteries, they could cause a stroke or other life-threatening event. Research has shown that divers who have a PFO are more likely to have wounds or lesions in their brains.

To reduce the risk of serious health problems, divers who have a patent foramen ovale are encouraged to swim to the surface of the water slowly and not dive as deeply or as long as other divers. Depending on the size of the PFO, divers may also consider a procedure to have it closed. If they experience severe shortness of breath, they are encouraged to contact their physician right away.

German researchers have developed a fairly inexpensive test to help predict whether or not people are at risk before they dive. During the test, harmless bubbles are injected into a vein and then a painless ultrasound is performed to see if the bubbles are able to reach the brain. People who have a PFO should discuss the hazards of scuba diving with their physician before participating in diving activities

.

If this person died from a stroke, possibly caused by a PFO, than there's not much that could have helped him. It's interesting to find out why he had no equipment on him though.

By sticking to the OP's information, this accident is not training agency related but an unfortunate happening of health circumstances that led to the divers death. No kind of training or agency could have prevented this accident.

[skippybangkok]

By sticking to the OP's information, this accident is not training agency related but an unfortunate happening of health circumstances that lead to the divers death. No kind of training or agency could have prevented this accident.

Spot on. Buddy or no buddy, it was his destiny sad to say. Why he was on the surface without his gear will remain a mystery. Apparently, he did not look so well before the dive.

Sample of what mine looks like ( not mine though - too ugly ).

[limbos]

In fact - I can remember this one like it was yesterday

31 meters, buffeting currents / Lembeh Straights - suspended on a rock face

105mm lens and Double Macro at full power ( 5mm(?) Sea horse - full frame picture )

Did i hold my breath - you bet.

Awesome picture.

[skippybangkok]

Awesome picture.

Thanks - know tons of guys who have better. Point was that any pic of this nature is 100% guaranteed breath holding ( ok - 99.9% then). with the depth of field being so low and the magnification being so high, you have to hold your breath to stop the camera from moving.

[percy2]

Nowhere in my posts did I mention Decompression sickness....read them again

Nowhere did I mention it was a good idea to hold your breath....read them again

As for arguing with anyone...I'm too placid by nature

Happy diving..!!

Froggs

If you understand anything about saturation of nitrogen in tissue types Percy..like blood and bones,then I would recommend that you dont use this technique.

I understood that the technique you were talking about was breath holding.

My apologies if it wasn't.

All I saw was a frank exchange of differing ideas. Also sometimes known as a forum.

Happy diving..!!

Thats what its all about.

Cheers

[limbos]

Awesome picture.

Thanks - know tons of guys who have better. Point was that any pic of this nature is 100% guaranteed breath holding ( ok - 99.9% then). with the depth of field being so low and the magnification being so high, you have to hold your breath to stop the camera from moving.

Point is that during initial diver training, students get taught that one should never hold his breath, especially not during ascents.

This is an excellent starting point and can't be emphasized enough during training and should not be down played.

I do understand what you're saying though.

[percy2]

Point is that during initial diver training, students get taught that one should never hold his breath, especially not during ascents.

This is an excellent starting point and can't be emphasized enough during training and should not be down played.

I do understand what you're saying though.

Limbos you are quite correct.

Similar to teaching kids not to talk to strangers.

Cheers

[skippybangkok]

This is an excellent starting point and can't be emphasized enough during training and should not be down played

Cheers, fully agreed. Just Mr. Know it all needs to tone down the lecturing, and increase his contribution to the question i posed at the start ( how far can one really go on an empty set of lungs ).