Issan Village Election Vote Buying

[citizen33]

Well, look at it this way, at least in Thailand the voter gets something out of an election, in our modern western election circus the voter " thinks" he will get something, like tax reductions, peace, lower fuel prices , well you know the usual promises which are soon forgotten if "the chair" has been won.

And make no mistake, look at all the millions which are spent on elections, and you really believe that it is for free and just a donation??

I don`t.

Vote buying occurs but I am not sure it happens in quite such a uniform way as people here say. I also didn't think it was as manifest during the last general election as in the August OBT elections. In August I heard lots of stories about X and Y having got 300 or 500 baht etcetera from A or B, but when canvassers came to my house they didn't offer my wife anything. To the best of my knowledge a Thai friend nearby was not paid (he was complaining about the PAD 'mob' most days at around that time and seemed fairly committed to a particular cause). There were certainly loads of canvassers and pick-ups with loudspeakers circulating in the area and competing strongly with each other. If everything was absolutely bought and paid for, would this be necessary? I suspect that the picture may vary according to where you live. My village is strongly behind PPP and I don't think the Democrats would have much success in buying votes. So I think the picture of complete absence of interest in policy and concern only with bribes is wrong. Perhaps what happens sometimes is that people take money but only vote for an option they deem acceptable. Overall though I agree that many Isaan people are their own worst enemies when it comes to preserving democracy and electing a government which will implement economic and social policies fair to the North East.

The other interesting point is that if all the votes were bought what would the cost be? At 500 baht per time, and a lot more for the big wigs, how many could a party afford to fund?

Edited October 10, 2008 by citizen33

[Thaddeus]

Well, look at it this way, at least in Thailand the voter gets something out of an election, in our modern western election circus the voter " thinks" he will get something, like tax reductions, peace, lower fuel prices , well you know the usual promises which are soon forgotten if "the chair" has been won.

And make no mistake, look at all the millions which are spent on elections, and you really believe that it is for free and just a donation??

I don`t.

Vote buying occurs but I am not sure it happens in quite such a uniform way as people here say. I also didn't think it was as manifest during the last general election as in the August OBT elections. In August I heard lots of stories about X and Y having got 300 or 500 baht etcetera from A or B, but when canvassers came to my house they didn't offer my wife anything. To the best of my knowledge a Thai friend nearby was not paid (he was complaining about the PAD 'mob' most days at around that time and seemed fairly committed to a particular cause). There were certainly loads of canvassers and pick-ups with loudspeakers circulating in the area and competing strongly with each other. If everything was absolutely bought and paid for, would this be necessary? I suspect that the picture may vary according to where you live. My village is strongly behind PPP and I don't think the Democrats would have much success in buying votes. So I think the picture of complete absence of interest in policy and concern only with bribes is wrong. Perhaps what happens sometimes is that people take money but only vote for an option they deem acceptable. Overall though I agree that many Isaan people are their own worst enemies when it comes to preserving democracy and electing a government which will implement economic and social policies fair to the North East.

The other interesting point is that if all the votes were bought what would the cost be? At 500 baht per time, and a lot more for the big wigs, how many could a party afford to fund?

Very wordy, completely asinine and total BS......... you have all the trademarks of a politician

[citizen33]

Well, look at it this way, at least in Thailand the voter gets something out of an election, in our modern western election circus the voter " thinks" he will get something, like tax reductions, peace, lower fuel prices , well you know the usual promises which are soon forgotten if "the chair" has been won.

And make no mistake, look at all the millions which are spent on elections, and you really believe that it is for free and just a donation??

I don`t.

Vote buying occurs but I am not sure it happens in quite such a uniform way as people here say. I also didn't think it was as manifest during the last general election as in the August OBT elections. In August I heard lots of stories about X and Y having got 300 or 500 baht etcetera from A or B, but when canvassers came to my house they didn't offer my wife anything. To the best of my knowledge a Thai friend nearby was not paid (he was complaining about the PAD 'mob' most days at around that time and seemed fairly committed to a particular cause). There were certainly loads of canvassers and pick-ups with loudspeakers circulating in the area and competing strongly with each other. If everything was absolutely bought and paid for, would this be necessary? I suspect that the picture may vary according to where you live. My village is strongly behind PPP and I don't think the Democrats would have much success in buying votes. So I think the picture of complete absence of interest in policy and concern only with bribes is wrong. Perhaps what happens sometimes is that people take money but only vote for an option they deem acceptable. Overall though I agree that many Isaan people are their own worst enemies when it comes to preserving democracy and electing a government which will implement economic and social policies fair to the North East.

The other interesting point is that if all the votes were bought what would the cost be? At 500 baht per time, and a lot more for the big wigs, how many could a party afford to fund?

Very wordy, completely asinine and total BS......... you have all the trademarks of a politician

So the post did not match your prejudices and you start throwing insults! But which part is stupid or untrue? There were 26 million votes cast for PPP and 21 million for the Democrats in the last general election: how much did that little lot cost if you are right? I've noticed in the past that you like 'black and white' but the world isn't really like that.

Edited October 10, 2008 by citizen33

[mgreek]

Corruption is a cancer on thai society.

Unfortunately, thailand is not the only corrupted country... I am European and I see this very often in our "developted" countries...

[Thaddeus]

I've noticed in the past that you like 'black and white'

Really, you noticed that did you, would you like to point out some examples of this trait.

[citizen33]

I've noticed in the past that you like 'black and white'

Really, you noticed that did you, would you like to point out some examples of this trait.

Well let’s just take the present case as you seem keen to move off topic. In a nutshell what is our disagreement? You say:

Vote buying is endemic and near-universal in Isaan

It affects most voters and may involve several bribes per voter

Voters have no interest in policy, just money

I say:

Vote buying is common but not universal

It would be economically infeasible to buy all votes

The populist policies are important to many Isaan voters

We seem to agree that people may take money and vote in another way (which you say is according to what they see as best for them and I say may be about the policies they like).

You are probably aware that there is a debate between those who say that PPP’s success in NE elections is just about money politics and those who say it is populist policies. I say that it is a mixture, while you say just the money. In my opinion that is seeing things in ‘black and white’ terms’.

My views are not wildly different from those of many commentators. E.g.

‘In the last couple of years, there have been studies of election practice in the North, Northeast, and South. The decision on casting a vote is now very complex and involves the party, the candidate, and the money. In the South, voters feel a strong emotional pull to vote Democrat. In the North and Northeast, Thaksin’s schemes have created a strong pull towards the People Power Party/Thai Rak Thai. Yet the candidate also undergoes scrutiny. Is he a local person, someone close to us? Can he get things done, and does he have the track record to prove it? Is he reasonably honest? Does he have the right kind of friends? Finally, does he prove his generosity with a gift? Only candidates known to have modest wealth are excused this obligation, yet can still be elected on grounds of their social contribution.’

http://news.tourthailand.org/news-update/t...age-system.html

What studies is he talking about? Well here is one from a local university:

Somchai Phatharathananunth, The Thai Rak Thai party and elections in North-eastern Thailand, Journal of Contemporary Asia, Volume 38, Issue 1 February 2008 , pages 106 – 123

Abstract

Thaksin Shinawatra's electoral success, through the Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party, has led to a debate: was the party's electoral landslide based on the appeal of its policies or the power of money? On one side of the debate, the party's success was seen to result from its policies that reflected the interests of widely divergent sectors of the electorate. On the other side, TRT was held to be no different from “old-style” political parties that relied on money politics (vote buying, buying members of parliament and other kinds of patronage). This article explores the nature of TRT's successes and failures by examining the operation of TRT in north-eastern Thailand. It is argued that it is wrong to single out policies or money as a source of TRT's success because the party relied on both strategies to win elections

There are similar findings for the North in:

Andrew Walker, The rural constitution and the everyday politics of elections in Northern Thailand. Journal of Contemporary Asia, Volume 38, Issue 1 February 2008 , pages 84 – 105.

‘Very wordy’, well perhaps so for Thai Visa. However, if I wanted to write a pithy one-liner, I’d try to avoid mixing my metaphors (ass vs bull) and also superfluous adjectives (guess you had to say I’m a ‘complete’ ass because people might mistake me for a mule?). I’d say the animal metaphor you might want to consider is ostrich.

[Thaddeus]

We seem to agree that people may take money and vote in another way (which you say is according to what they see as best for them and I say may be about the policies they like).

You are probably aware that there is a debate between those who say that PPP’s success in NE elections is just about money politics and those who say it is populist policies. I say that it is a mixture, while you say just the money.

This is what I said.

Every single candidate in every single election that I have witnessed (and there have been a few) has offered a bribe to vote for them, the money has been taken, and then the people have voted for the one that they thought could help them most.

What is the difference between liking one candidates policies over liking one candidate because they expect him/her to do the best for them, it's the same thing isn't it.

[prakhonchai nick]

Some people take the money, and vote how they want to, but that is not usually the case in some villages. The money is handed out (usually by just one party) and has a veiled threat. Basically villagers are told that if they do not vote for the candidate that has paid them, they will be ineligible to vote in future and will not be able to take a loan from the village fund.

Now of course we know that is not true, but the mainly uneducated villagers will believe anything they are told by someone they perceive as being "higher" than them!

As it is no secret that votes are bought, and I and probably most foreigners living in the villages could prove that money is changing hands, I fail to understand why the election watchdog and their teams, (no doubt highly paid) rarely come up with a prosecution. Whether or not every voter in Isaan receives money, it is a virtual certainty that every winning candidate handed out money, and as such should be disqualified.

[Dave the Dude]

Some people take the money, and vote how they want to, but that is not usually the case in some villages. The money is handed out (usually by just one party) and has a veiled threat. Basically villagers are told that if they do not vote for the candidate that has paid them, they will be ineligible to vote in future and will not be able to take a loan from the village fund.

Now of course we know that is not true, but the mainly uneducated villagers will believe anything they are told by someone they perceive as being "higher" than them!

As it is no secret that votes are bought, and I and probably most foreigners living in the villages could prove that money is changing hands, I fail to understand why the election watchdog and their teams, (no doubt highly paid) rarely come up with a prosecution. Whether or not every voter in Isaan receives money, it is a virtual certainty that every winning candidate handed out money, and as such should be disqualified.

Very true Nick, but that then leaves only US as eligable candidates(& a few honest Thais)

NO CHANCE

Dave

[citizen33]

We seem to agree that people may take money and vote in another way (which you say is according to what they see as best for them and I say may be about the policies they like).

You are probably aware that there is a debate between those who say that PPP’s success in NE elections is just about money politics and those who say it is populist policies. I say that it is a mixture, while you say just the money.

This is what I said.

Every single candidate in every single election that I have witnessed (and there have been a few) has offered a bribe to vote for them, the money has been taken, and then the people have voted for the one that they thought could help them most.

What is the difference between liking one candidates policies over liking one candidate because they expect him/her to do the best for them, it's the same thing isn't it.

In your book it seems to be the difference between saying 'I agree' and calling somebody an ass. You never did say what I got so wrong. At best your sentence is ambiguous and to me suggests that the short-term pecuniary motive is uppermost. That is what happens when somebody prefers sound bites to explaining themselves properly.

[jumnien]

A very sad incident occurred in the USA recently where my mother actually paid a $100 donation to vote for John McCain. Glad to see in Issan its the poor voters that get money from the candidates!

[Dave the Dude]

A very sad incident occurred in the USA recently where my mother actually paid a $100 donation to vote for John McCain. Glad to see in Issan its the poor voters that get money from the candidates!

Was it compulsory then ??

[Gary A]

My wife is of the opinion that if they are stupid enought to give money, she will take it. She then votes for whoever she wants to vote for.

[Dave the Dude]

My wife is of the opinion that if they are stupid enought to give money, she will take it. She then votes for whoever she wants to vote for.

You are married to a very sensible lady, Gary A (as if you did'nt already know)

Dave

[Thaddeus]

In your book it seems to be the difference between saying 'I agree' and calling somebody an ass.

Just tell me at which point I insulted you, I didn't, I called into question the post that you made, nothing more, nothing less.

That's now two questions that you need to answer.

[Thaddeus]

Ooops.... sorry, made a mistake.

What is the difference between liking one candidates policies over liking one candidate because they expect him/her to do the best for them, it's the same thing isn't it.

Three questions.

[citizen33]

Ooops.... sorry, made a mistake.

What is the difference between liking one candidates policies over liking one candidate because they expect him/her to do the best for them, it's the same thing isn't it.

Three questions.

I think there is only one question that demands an answer.

Poster 1: Offers opinion on issue

Poster 2: 'Very wordy, completely asinine and total BS..'

Poster 1: '...which part is stupid or untrue?'

Poster 2: Does not answer but demands answers to three questions of his own.

When somebody makes disparaging remarks but won't say why and is not willing to engage with the issues, there seems very little mileage in carrying on a discussion.

[bergen]

A very sad incident occurred in the USA recently where my mother actually paid a $100 donation to vote for John McCain. Glad to see in Issan its the poor voters that get money from the candidates!

[Thaddeus]

Ooops.... sorry, made a mistake.

What is the difference between liking one candidates policies over liking one candidate because they expect him/her to do the best for them, it's the same thing isn't it.

Three questions.

I think there is only one question that demands an answer.

Poster 1: Offers opinion on issue

Poster 2: 'Very wordy, completely asinine and total BS..'

Poster 1: '...which part is stupid or untrue?'

Poster 2: Does not answer but demands answers to three questions of his own.

When somebody makes disparaging remarks but won't say why and is not willing to engage with the issues, there seems very little mileage in carrying on a discussion.

I will state it again, I didn't make any disparaging remarks about you, I am perfectly willing and able to discuss any issue that you deem worthy...... on the last point, yes you are probably right.

[Thaddeus]

Poster 2: Does not answer but demands answers to three questions of his own.

Did too.... times infinity . ner.

[Damaz6052]

With polling day rapidly approaching, things are hotting up in our village. Thai democracy at its finest.

Sunday villagers will cast their votes for the new ; forgive the spelling; Arbuto's???? (village administrators)

In our village there are three Moo baan's, each one hotly contested. In our Moo baan, there are three individuals trying for the top job, which, I'm told pays 8k baht/month. Yesterday, my wife had visits from representatives of two of the candidates at different times, each one 'dropping' her B300 to secure her vote; she's not alone, anyone eligable to vote gets the 'bung'. In another Moo in the village, things are very hot, the candidates are giving everyone B500 to buy their vote!

A close friend of my wifes is again running for this job in another Moo, remember, 8k baht/month ; thus far she has shelled out B300,000 'BUYING' her way back into the job. It only goes to show how much money these people STEAL from the goverment allocated funds they are elected to administer to the village.

If successful, a four year 'stint' earning 8k month & who knows what else?????

Even after so many years, the blatently open way they are going about buying votes somewhat surprises me.

In the recent elections in Kamala Phuket my staff were offered 2000baht by each party and a week later one the parties canvessers was shot dead...

[Gary A]

I really don't think that vote buying is a prevalent as many people think. I posted before that my wife WILL take the money and then vote for whomever she wants. That said, the last national election she was disappointed that no one offered her anything.

[citizen33]

I really don't think that vote buying is a prevalent as many people think. I posted before that my wife WILL take the money and then vote for whomever she wants. That said, the last national election she was disappointed that no one offered her anything.

Snap. But after extensive investigations and some tough interrogations since my earlier post, I have established the following:

Wife - clean

Yai -clean

Cousin Lek-clean

Uncle Somchai - clean

Auntie Daeng - was offered and took the money!!!

Oooh the loss of face! Semi-true story but I'm not sure what to make of it.

[storminnorman]

I really don't think that vote buying is a prevalent as many people think.

I do.

More so for local elections. Some take the money and vote for whoever they please. Some take the money and are sh*t scared that the filth who hands over the money will know if they voted for someone else.

My daughter belongs to the former, my wife the latter. And they are not simple Isaan folk.

[surinmike]

well sounds like your the simpleton in your isaan village mr stormin

[johnsurin]

well sounds like your the simpleton in your isaan village mr stormin

Well it is remarkable how much people can learn from one another.

I pity the child.

John.

[plachon]

I really don't think that vote buying is a prevalent as many people think.

I do.

More so for local elections. Some take the money and vote for whoever they please. Some take the money and are sh*t scared that the filth who hands over the money will know if they voted for someone else.

My daughter belongs to the former, my wife the latter. And they are not simple Isaan folk.

And your wife and daughter are no less "filthy" for having accepted the money I suppose?

Bribees and bribers in most societies are equally guilty of a crime. Apparently different standards exist in Thailand.

[IMA_FARANG]

I really don't think that vote buying is a prevalent as many people think.

I do.

More so for local elections. Some take the money and vote for whoever they please. Some take the money and are sh*t scared that the filth who hands over the money will know if they voted for someone else.

My daughter belongs to the former, my wife the latter. And they are not simple Isaan folk.

And your wife and daughter are no less "filthy" for having accepted the money I suppose?

Bribees and bribers in most societies are equally guilty of a crime. Apparently different standards exist in Thailand.

I always like to tell this story.

Some years ago a village headman in Issan posted an ad in a Thai newspaper offering to sell about 30 votes from people in his village to the highest bidder. Some newspaper in BKK got ahold of the story and criticised that headman for being so "stupid" to sell their votes like that. Didn't he know about democracy?

The headman replied that he knew perfectly well they shouldn't be selling their votes. But for years he had been trying to get the government to fund a health clinic for his village. Every election one party or the other promised them that if they voted for that party, that party would bring the health clinic to their village. Then once that party was elected, they promptly forgot their promise about the clinic. So this election, he was making it official in the newspaper, so that it would be on the record, and the politicians couldn't get out of their promise after the elections. And when he got the money, he was going to use it to open the clinic, and hire a doctor or nurse.

Now you may not agree with the methods, but who was the "stupid" person, the people who criticised that Issan village headman or the Issan village headman? At least he got his money in advance.

And who do you think really had a better idea about how "democracy" really worked?

[tig28]

Some people take the money, and vote how they want to, but that is not usually the case in some villages. The money is handed out (usually by just one party) and has a veiled threat. Basically villagers are told that if they do not vote for the candidate that has paid them, they will be ineligible to vote in future and will not be able to take a loan from the village fund.

Now of course we know that is not true, but the mainly uneducated villagers will believe anything they are told by someone they perceive as being "higher" than them!

As it is no secret that votes are bought, and I and probably most foreigners living in the villages could prove that money is changing hands, I fail to understand why the election watchdog and their teams, (no doubt highly paid) rarely come up with a prosecution. Whether or not every voter in Isaan receives money, it is a virtual certainty that every winning candidate handed out money, and as such should be disqualified.

It never ceases to amaze me !! despite several personal accounts in this post to the contrary we get:

"The money is handed out (usually by just one party)"

well just like the other posters ------ in our village the money is offered by more than "just one party". the villagers accept (generally) from anyone offering.

But this is the best:

"The mainly uneducated villagers will believe anything they are told by someone they perceive as being "higher" than them!"

Mainly uneducated-----maybe. Stupid----absolutely not!

The elected officials in our village are very attentive to the (many) complaints & requests they receive from their voters. They realize only too well that if they don't at least give the impression of acting for your "uneducated villagers" no amount of money will save them come next election! The rewards for them are just too great. they don't threaten---they respectfully request. It is a joke around here that you can always tell election time be the depth of the wai's being delivered to the villagers.

These people are very independent and are never lead around like the sheep you seem to think they are.

"it is a virtual certainty that every winning candidate handed out money" ------ you are probably close --- but you forget to include the loosing candidates!

[tig28]

hi plachon

" Apparently different standards exist in Thailand. "

According to the Esarn author Pira Sudham you are 100% correct.