State Of Emergency Announced In Bangkok

[blaze]

This was just posted by the Nation...

Six coalition parties supports referendum vote

Key MPs from the six coalition parties have concluded a meeting and decided to endorse a government's proposal to hold a national referendum as a way to end the political unrest.

The MPs express willingness to act as a gobetween to try and convince the People's Alliance for Democracy to go along with the idea.

The MPs include Peerapan Palusuk of People Power Party, Ekkapot Panyaem of Chart Thai, Somchai Charoenchairit of Pracharat, Kiatikorn Pakpiansilp of Matchima Thipataya, Alongkot Maneekat of Puea Pandin and Wasulee Suwanpalisut of Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana.

Peerapan said the people should be the final judge to decide on their own future. The referendum outcome would be a reliable guide on how the unrest should end.

The Nation

...I would say, if the government is willing to level the playing field and give the PAD equal access to the regular TV channels, then this would be a fair referendum. Otherwise, it's just a farce, another Samak scam

Too much rice - not enough Protein

No matter what the outcome- whoever loses in the referendum is NOT going to accept the results. If they won't accept the results of an election- why would they accept the results of a referendum? As with the last election- and the two prior to that- some had made up their minds well before the election even occurred that it was rigged (by vote buying). It's the same thing with a referendum.

I think it is time for the Democrats to make a strong statement in favor of the democratic process. And if they are unwilling to do that- then God help Thailand. I see no way out short of civil war.

[DNPBC0]

I understand from my wife who lives in Khon Kaen that there may be some sort of PAD demo occurring near the Sofitel in Khon Kaen. Can anyone confirm this? I am currently on business in New Zealand and am naturally concerned about any trouble developing in heart of Isaan while I am out of Thailand. It could be just scuttlebutt of course so please don't assume it is true.

[sriracha john]

read here about sondhis vision of foreign politics:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=732

Could you please share with us who wrote this?

oh, you read my post.

< SNIPPED A LOT >

Uhmm.. actually I simply asked if you could tell us who wrote it.

[blaze]

It is quite clear the PAD phenominon has gone WAY beyond the leaders individual issues.

It is now a wide reaching umbrella for many Thais who's voices have been ignored by the

incumbent clique installed by Thaksin.

So harp on the leaders all you like, that will do SQUAT to convert the little people

joining them to convert to your 'PPP right or wrong' agenda's. It has truly become

a social movement against corruption and the status quo.

As far as I can see, "anti-corruption" has very little to do with PAD. It's an "anti-Thaksin and his followers"-movement, and corruption is unfortunately not at all limited to Thaksin and his gang. Hard to claim "anti-corruption" when PAD leadership has its own dirty track-record. Just study the history of Sondhi for instance.

There is a mix of interests in the PAD leadership joined by their dislike of Thaksin and his followers. None of them seem very keen on the one-man-one-vote principle. Wonder how well they would work together if they actually had to manage something, i.e. do something else than protesting. I would guess that they would soon start fighting each other, too big egos in there.

The world has seen a number of strong nationalistic movements that went all bad, sometimes much supported by "little people". I am worried to see the types heading the PAD and the momentum they are getting. see for instance PAD at Wikipedia

Does not bode well at all.

What is fascinating is that the average Bangkok Thai is dealing with corruption every time he turns around- every time he walks on a broken sidewalk that was only installed two years ago (built in obsolescence)- when he buys his kid a drivers license- or obtains better grades for his children- when he secures a job with the police and when he pays off a cop- he's faced with corruption every time he walks past endless stalls selling fake goods- computer programs- DVDs- when he is 'advised' by a revenue consultant as to how to dodge paying full tax- when he has to deal with customs- ask Thais about corruption in the country- in practically every domain of public life- including the Sangha-

And what makes me very sad- is that every Thai middle class PAD supporter- and in fact many farangs- that I have talked to- are convinced that the PAD fight is about corrutpion and that if won, will hail the end of corruption. And I just wish that were the case.

But of course it won't make any diffrence- not really- still, in the mind of many of the PAD, I do believe that they think that if Thaksin and his legacy can be erased- somehow the corruption will end. I don't get it. Yet I suppose a sociologist with something to say about collective behavior, about skapegoats- about utopian thinking- might be able to shed some light.

Edited September 4, 2008 by blaze

[paulfromphuket]

This was just posted by the Nation...

Six coalition parties supports referendum vote

Key MPs from the six coalition parties have concluded a meeting and decided to endorse a government's proposal to hold a national referendum as a way to end the political unrest.

The MPs express willingness to act as a gobetween to try and convince the People's Alliance for Democracy to go along with the idea.

The MPs include Peerapan Palusuk of People Power Party, Ekkapot Panyaem of Chart Thai, Somchai Charoenchairit of Pracharat, Kiatikorn Pakpiansilp of Matchima Thipataya, Alongkot Maneekat of Puea Pandin and Wasulee Suwanpalisut of Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana.

Peerapan said the people should be the final judge to decide on their own future. The referendum outcome would be a reliable guide on how the unrest should end.

The Nation

...I would say, if the government is willing to level the playing field and give the PAD equal access to the regular TV channels, then this would be a fair referendum. Otherwise, it's just a farce, another Samak scam

Too much rice - not enough Protein

No matter what the outcome- whoever loses in the referendum is NOT going to accept the results. If they won't accept the results of an election- why would they accept the results of a referendum? As with the last election- and the two prior to that- some had made up their minds well before the election even occurred that it was rigged (by vote buying). It's the same thing with a referendum.

I think it is time for the Democrats to make a strong statement in favor of the democratic process. And if they are unwilling to do that- then God help Thailand. I see no way out short of civil war.

of course they support it want to keep there jobs and recieve the gifts they have been promised Dur!

[sriracha john]

Sister of slain government supporter files complaint against PAD leaders

The sister of a government supporter killed during a clash with protesters early Tuesday filed a complaint with police against six leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy.

Chaba Singhaklangpol, 70, the sister of Narongsak Korbthaisong, filed the complaint at the Nangloeng police station.

She accused the six leaders of organizing protests, leading to the clash and death of her brother.

The six are Somsak Kosaisuk, Somkiart Pongpaiboon, Pipop Thongchai, Chamlong Srimuang, Sondhi Limthongkul and Suriyasai Katasila.

The Nation

Let's see if I get this correct, this DAAD supporter goes to battle it out with PAD supporters and unfortuneatly for him and his family is killed. So, let's blame the leaders of PAD for organising the rally that the son went to fight against. Only file a complaint if he gets killed. No need to if he harms someone else and manages to come home safely. I get the logic, makes perfect sense.

So in typical local fashion, the next step is for the leaders of the PAD to sue the mother of the slain guy for bringing him into the world in the first place, wherein he would grow up and eventually get killed fighting against the PAD supporters. The leaders would site that they were forced by the government's actions to in fact organise the rally, so the blame in reality should lay with the Government.

This political stuff is tricky, hard to keep on top of things.

The slain man went near the bridge that PAD occupy. This bridge is actually a public road.

However the PAD leaders were so infuriated by this that they ordered men - heavily armed men - to rush into battle. None of this is disputed by PAD .

Ok you may say he had no right to venture onto a public road in Bangkok - because by right of might PAD leadership decides who can or cannot travel anywhere - and perhaps that is true under the new politics that PAD envisions.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/030908_News/03Sep2008_news06.php[/color][/font]

[/font]i] [/i]Upon learning the UDD had marched to the PAD's protest site at the bridge, PAD core member Somsak Kosaisuk immediately ordered demonstrators to rush to the Makkhawan Rangsan site from Government House.

The PAD demonstrators, mostly young men armed with knives, wooden clubs, golf clubs and iron bars, reinforced PAD guards, numbering about 1,000, at the bridge to protect their protest site. [/i]

the UDD, which was outnumbered by the PAD, suffered casualties. The dead man was identified as UDD member Narongsak Krobthaisong, 55.

Without A., B. doesn't happen

A.

The violence erupted shortly after midnight when the UDD led more than 2,000 members, mostly wearing red T-shirts or red headbands, to march from Sanam Luang, where the UDD held a rally yesterday to counter the PAD rally, to Makkhawan Rangsan bridge, the headquarters of the PAD.

The UDD members, mostly armed with wooden batons, some with iron bars, stones and knives, were led by young men on board 20 motorcycles, who honked their horns while leading the group along the avenue. Two six-wheel trucks followed the group.

B.

The dead man was identified as UDD member Narongsak Krobthaisong

[sriracha john]

This was just posted by the Nation...

Six coalition parties supports referendum vote

Key MPs from the six coalition parties have concluded a meeting and decided to endorse a government's proposal to hold a national referendum as a way to end the political unrest.

The MPs express willingness to act as a gobetween to try and convince the People's Alliance for Democracy to go along with the idea.

The MPs include Peerapan Palusuk of People Power Party, Ekkapot Panyaem of Chart Thai, Somchai Charoenchairit of Pracharat, Kiatikorn Pakpiansilp of Matchima Thipataya, Alongkot Maneekat of Puea Pandin and Wasulee Suwanpalisut of Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana.

Peerapan said the people should be the final judge to decide on their own future. The referendum outcome would be a reliable guide on how the unrest should end.

The Nation

...I would say, if the government is willing to level the playing field and give the PAD equal access to the regular TV channels, then this would be a fair referendum. Otherwise, it's just a farce, another Samak scam

Too much rice - not enough Protein

No matter what the outcome- whoever loses in the referendum is NOT going to accept the results. If they won't accept the results of an election- why would they accept the results of a referendum? As with the last election- and the two prior to that- some had made up their minds well before the election even occurred that it was rigged (by vote buying). It's the same thing with a referendum.

I think it is time for the Democrats to make a strong statement in favor of the democratic process. And if they are unwilling to do that- then God help Thailand. I see no way out short of civil war.

The did make a statement. They panned this ridiculous and inappropriate usage of the referendum process.

If PPP want to reassess their popularity, dissolve Parliament.... that's what dissolving is for... not like Thaksin who dissolved it to avoid censure... and which started this whole ball of snow rolling down the hill.

Edited September 4, 2008 by sriracha john

[Thai at Heart]

It is quite clear the PAD phenominon has gone WAY beyond the leaders individual issues.

It is now a wide reaching umbrella for many Thais who's voices have been ignored by the

incumbent clique installed by Thaksin.

So harp on the leaders all you like, that will do SQUAT to convert the little people

joining them to convert to your 'PPP right or wrong' agenda's. It has truly become

a social movement against corruption and the status quo.

As far as I can see, "anti-corruption" has very little to do with PAD. It's an "anti-Thaksin and his followers"-movement, and corruption is unfortunately not at all limited to Thaksin and his gang. Hard to claim "anti-corruption" when PAD leadership has its own dirty track-record. Just study the history of Sondhi for instance.

There is a mix of interests in the PAD leadership joined by their dislike of Thaksin and his followers. None of them seem very keen on the one-man-one-vote principle. Wonder how well they would work together if they actually had to manage something, i.e. do something else than protesting. I would guess that they would soon start fighting each other, too big egos in there.

The world has seen a number of strong nationalistic movements that went all bad, sometimes much supported by "little people". I am worried to see the types heading the PAD and the momentum they are getting. see for instance PAD at Wikipedia

Does not bode well at all.

What is fascinating is that the average Bangkok Thai is dealing with corruption every time he turns around- every time he walks on a broken sidewalk that was only installed two years ago (built in obsolescence)- when he buys his kid a drivers license- or obtains better grades for his children- when he secures a job with the police and when he pays off a cop- he's faced with corruption every time he walks past endless stalls selling fake goods- computer programs- DVDs- when he is 'advised' by a revenue consultant as to how to dodge paying full tax- when he has to deal with customs- ask Thais about corruption in the country- in practically every domain of public life- including the Sangha-

And what makes me very sad- is that every Thai middle class PAD supporter- and in fact many farangs- that I have talked to- are convinced that the PAD fight is about corrutpion and that if won, will hail the end of corruption. And I just wish that were the case.

But of course it won't make any diffrence- not really- still, in the mind of many of the PAD, I do believe that they think that if Thaksin and his legacy can be erased- somehow the corruption will end. I don't get it. Yet I suppose a sociologist with something to say about collective behavior, about skapegoats- about utopian thinking- might be able to shed some light.

General statements have gone like this. Thaksin was a thief, he sold the country/telephone company (always a good way to get a lot of people to listen like lap dogs), he must go, he must pay, he is evil (people always love to hate a demon), he was corrupt. Samak has a pig's nose and a dogs mouth, (evil), he is corrupt, he sold the country (Phraer Vihar) and if you weren't already sure that you should come and support us, please note we are wearing yellow and the government is jeopardising the future of the country and the monarchy.

Classic rhetoric to get people to feel as though they are doing something momentous for the country while in all reality the leaders are trying to flush a nascent democracy down the toilet.

We were asking the other day, what level of dodgy business would Gordon Brown have to do, to get this kind of reaction. All we could come up with was that he was found sponsoring Mohammed Fayed's citizenship.

[kurtgruen]

This was just posted by the Nation...

Six coalition parties supports referendum vote

Key MPs from the six coalition parties have concluded a meeting and decided to endorse a government's proposal to hold a national referendum as a way to end the political unrest.

The MPs express willingness to act as a gobetween to try and convince the People's Alliance for Democracy to go along with the idea.

The MPs include Peerapan Palusuk of People Power Party, Ekkapot Panyaem of Chart Thai, Somchai Charoenchairit of Pracharat, Kiatikorn Pakpiansilp of Matchima Thipataya, Alongkot Maneekat of Puea Pandin and Wasulee Suwanpalisut of Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana.

Peerapan said the people should be the final judge to decide on their own future. The referendum outcome would be a reliable guide on how the unrest should end.

The Nation

...I would say, if the government is willing to level the playing field and give the PAD equal access to the regular TV channels, then this would be a fair referendum. Otherwise, it's just a farce, another Samak scam

Too much rice - not enough Protein

No matter what the outcome- whoever loses in the referendum is NOT going to accept the results. If they won't accept the results of an election- why would they accept the results of a referendum? As with the last election- and the two prior to that- some had made up their minds well before the election even occurred that it was rigged (by vote buying). It's the same thing with a referendum.I think it is time for the Democrats to make a strong statement in favor of the democratic process. And if they are unwilling to do that- then God help Thailand. I see no way out short of civil war.

and the last two elections were rigged, so what's your point. Now you have Samak call for a referendum, when his party already has been judged illegal by the Elections Commissions, for vote buying. So what would make anyone think that there would not be vote buying in the Referendum.

Too much rice - not enough Protein

[blaze]

This was just posted by the Nation...

Six coalition parties supports referendum vote

Key MPs from the six coalition parties have concluded a meeting and decided to endorse a government's proposal to hold a national referendum as a way to end the political unrest.

The MPs express willingness to act as a gobetween to try and convince the People's Alliance for Democracy to go along with the idea.

The MPs include Peerapan Palusuk of People Power Party, Ekkapot Panyaem of Chart Thai, Somchai Charoenchairit of Pracharat, Kiatikorn Pakpiansilp of Matchima Thipataya, Alongkot Maneekat of Puea Pandin and Wasulee Suwanpalisut of Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana.

Peerapan said the people should be the final judge to decide on their own future. The referendum outcome would be a reliable guide on how the unrest should end.

The Nation

...I would say, if the government is willing to level the playing field and give the PAD equal access to the regular TV channels, then this would be a fair referendum. Otherwise, it's just a farce, another Samak scam

Too much rice - not enough Protein

No matter what the outcome- whoever loses in the referendum is NOT going to accept the results. If they won't accept the results of an election- why would they accept the results of a referendum? As with the last election- and the two prior to that- some had made up their minds well before the election even occurred that it was rigged (by vote buying). It's the same thing with a referendum.I think it is time for the Democrats to make a strong statement in favor of the democratic process. And if they are unwilling to do that- then God help Thailand. I see no way out short of civil war.

and the last two elections were rigged, so what's your point. Now you have Samak call for a referendum, when his party already has been judged illegal by the Elections Commissions, for vote buying. So what would make anyone think that there would not be vote buying in the Referendum.

Too much rice - not enough Protein

You made my point. I don't think you would accept the result of the referendum if it goes the 'wrong way' would you. You have made up your mind already. And I doubt you are alone.

I should also add- to be fair- that very likely many on the government side would not accept an Samak Go HOME result because they would believe that the voters were responding simply to quiet the PAD- and threw them Samaks bones to chew on in other words that the voters had been scared by the events into sacrificing Samak so that the country could just get back to business without any more bloodshed.

Edited September 4, 2008 by blaze

[blaze]

This was just posted by the Nation...

Six coalition parties supports referendum vote

Key MPs from the six coalition parties have concluded a meeting and decided to endorse a government's proposal to hold a national referendum as a way to end the political unrest.

The MPs express willingness to act as a gobetween to try and convince the People's Alliance for Democracy to go along with the idea.

The MPs include Peerapan Palusuk of People Power Party, Ekkapot Panyaem of Chart Thai, Somchai Charoenchairit of Pracharat, Kiatikorn Pakpiansilp of Matchima Thipataya, Alongkot Maneekat of Puea Pandin and Wasulee Suwanpalisut of Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana.

Peerapan said the people should be the final judge to decide on their own future. The referendum outcome would be a reliable guide on how the unrest should end.

The Nation

...I would say, if the government is willing to level the playing field and give the PAD equal access to the regular TV channels, then this would be a fair referendum. Otherwise, it's just a farce, another Samak scam

Too much rice - not enough Protein

No matter what the outcome- whoever loses in the referendum is NOT going to accept the results. If they won't accept the results of an election- why would they accept the results of a referendum? As with the last election- and the two prior to that- some had made up their minds well before the election even occurred that it was rigged (by vote buying). It's the same thing with a referendum.

I think it is time for the Democrats to make a strong statement in favor of the democratic process. And if they are unwilling to do that- then God help Thailand. I see no way out short of civil war.

The did make a statement. They panned this ridiculous and inappropriate usage of the referendum process.

If PPP want to reassess their popularity, dissolve Parliament.... that's what dissolving is for... not like Thaksin who dissolved it to avoid censure... and which started this whole ball of snow rolling down the hill.

But what difference will new elections make? (see my post above).

Actually what I expect is that the PPP case will be fast tracked and very shortly we can expect to see them put out of action by the courts- not nescessarily suggestions that restoring social harmony would motivate the judgement- regardless, the decision will have to be respected. That will certainly buy enough time for hot heads to cool down.

Edited September 4, 2008 by blaze

[kurtgruen]

Actually what I expect is that the PPP case will be fast tracked and very shortly we can expect to see them put out of action by the courts...

No that is what I really hope will happen, too. Then Samak and the PPP will be gone, they can call a new elections and hopefully have a few more safeguards in the next election against corruption.

True democracy doesn't happen overnight. It's a slow and sometimes painful process, but I believe that looking through history, Thailand is moving in the right direction. Fasttracking the case against the PPP would be the right move, right now, I think

[Tony Clifton]

Kurt, nobody is perfect (least of all me, don't take my criticism of you too personally .... I think many of us are really getting worked up by the bloody farce we are seeing on the streets of Bangkok, so I'm sorry if you took offense)

All along the oponents of PAD and Sondhi have made it crystal clear that they are not excusing Samak, Thaksin and TRT/PPP for the criminal things they did, but we were much more scared of Sondhi's perverted vendetta, his loathsome corrupt past, his neo-fascist views on voting (or rather on not-voting if you're poor and your skin is the wrong colour!), etc., etc. And then the bloody murderer of those Muslims, General Panlop was seen sliding into the PAD leadership!!!!! Too much for any right-thinking man.

It's interesting how the PAD supporters on this forum know so little about the PAD leaders.... I recommend they all give their names a google and have a read on wikipedia and others. You may be surprised what hypercrites they all are....

It's interesting on how people on this forum think Wikipedia is the ultimate truth.

I suggest you read this short exchange between Laopo and I, a single post that shows you wiki is as divided as Thaivisa members are on the issue.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2183108

Edited September 4, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[blaze]

Actually what I expect is that the PPP case will be fast tracked and very shortly we can expect to see them put out of action by the courts...

No that is what I really hope will happen, too. Then Samak and the PPP will be gone, they can call a new elections and hopefully have a few more safeguards in the next election against corruption.

True democracy doesn't happen overnight. It's a slow and sometimes painful process, but I believe that looking through history, Thailand is moving in the right direction. Fasttracking the case against the PPP would be the right move, right now, I think

Do you honestly believe that even if without vote buying, a party offering populist program- hinting at true empowerment of the poor- actively seeking to redress the gross economic inequities in this country- even one whose members are divorced from the PPP, will be aceepted by the PAD? Would you accept their legitimacy? (I don't mean to put you on the spot- you don't have to answer).

I suspect that you will see a massive denunciation of the process- some flaws will be found- an anecdote or two invented- a rumor circulated by an unsympathetic press=- and the whole thing starts again.

Edited September 4, 2008 by blaze

[Plus]

Nowhere in "new politics" [do] they talk about non-voting. On the contrary, in addition to simple voting, people will get a chance to actually BE in parlament, not watch in [sic] on TV once a year.

In BP's interview Sondhi said that if they get 20% of parlament [sic] filled by real people, not politicians, it would be a victory for PAD.

The PAD's "new politics" is equatable with a dictatorship of the privileged over the majority.

I'm sorry, I don't follow - how's putting real people's representatives in parlament is a dictatorship. I don't see the link at all.

It is true that Sondhi has no idea how to implement this "new politics" idea, but that's what I've been saying all along - it's just a topic for a start of an academic discussion, not a blueprint for revolution, as some here seem to think.

What I find most interesting in this proposal is that it gives people with direct stake and interest in the governing access to formulating government policies.

1997 constitution hoped that a new breed of politicians will grow from grass-roots movement, it didn't happen at all, rather the opposite. Sondhi is trying to achieve the same thing via different means - without putting grassroots leaders through the shameful process called "elections" here.

Perhaps some sort of primaries and caucuses could help people to bring their own representatives, for now the choices of who will be representing whom are made in Bangkok, people are only left to agree or disagree with them. That's not enough.

Sondhi wants people to nominate their representatives themselves, and he gives them guaranteed place in parlament, without having to kow tow to local bosses or Bangkok political hierarchy, and then BEG for money to run.

[Tony Clifton]

^The USSR used to tie German kids and women to their tanks while they were invading Germany in the final weeks of WW2, so that the Wehrmacht would think twice about firing on them

the germans just put them in the gas chambers me thinks neither of these relate to this situation

Interesting how they feel compelled to associate WWII atrocities from 60 some years ago to add weight to their arguments when many of the local factories are already filled with children while others are trafficked to become beggars or commodities for child prostitution.

[blaze]

^The USSR used to tie German kids and women to their tanks while they were invading Germany in the final weeks of WW2, so that the Wehrmacht would think twice about firing on them

the germans just put them in the gas chambers me thinks neither of these relate to this situation

Interesting how they feel compelled to associate WWII atrocities from 60 some years ago to add weight to their arguments when many of the local factories are already filled with children while others are trafficked to become beggars or commodities for child prostitution.

Yeah but all that is going to end once Thaksin and his ilk are dispensed with. That's why those yellow clad defenders of all that is good don't even feel the need to address those kinds of issues.

[Tony Clifton]

^The USSR used to tie German kids and women to their tanks while they were invading Germany in the final weeks of WW2, so that the Wehrmacht would think twice about firing on them

the germans just put them in the gas chambers me thinks neither of these relate to this situation

Interesting how they feel compelled to associate WWII atrocities from 60 some years ago to add weight to their DAAD-PPP -TRT apologist arguments when this country already has many of it's factories filled with children while others are trafficked to become beggars, even getting arms or legs chopped off to draw more sympathy, selling cr@p on the streets or destined for child prostitution. Nothing dangerous happens to children at PAD rallies, unltil the govt hires armed drunken thugs to initiate a confrontation.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[Plus]

But what difference will new elections make?

On its own - not that much. That's why a commitment to a political reform is one of the PAD conditions, even if it's the last one.

I don't know what effect referendm results will have on PAD. They have their own, legitimate grievances that needs to be addressed, not ingored and subdued, in case the govt wins the referendum.

The main problem for the government is not the lack of support, but the strength of the opposition. Referendum might take away some of that strength, but as long as PAD supporters are Thai citizens, it's government's duty to address their problems. Democracy is not a tyrrany of the majority, as Samak tends to think. Electoral victory doesn't give him the right to trample on people who lost the elections. He is supposed to be their leader, too.

Unforunately, as Samak put it himself - he got the flag from Thaksin but he runs his own rally, and now half the country doesn't accept him anymore.

[pumpuiman]

This was just posted by the Nation...

Six coalition parties supports referendum vote

Key MPs from the six coalition parties have concluded a meeting and decided to endorse a government's proposal to hold a national referendum as a way to end the political unrest.

The MPs express willingness to act as a gobetween to try and convince the People's Alliance for Democracy to go along with the idea.

The MPs include Peerapan Palusuk of People Power Party, Ekkapot Panyaem of Chart Thai, Somchai Charoenchairit of Pracharat, Kiatikorn Pakpiansilp of Matchima Thipataya, Alongkot Maneekat of Puea Pandin and Wasulee Suwanpalisut of Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana.

Peerapan said the people should be the final judge to decide on their own future. The referendum outcome would be a reliable guide on how the unrest should end.

The Nation

...I would say, if the government is willing to level the playing field and give the PAD equal access to the regular TV channels, then this would be a fair referendum. Otherwise, it's just a farce, another Samak scam

Too much rice - not enough Protein

The PAD won't accept the decision of the people, if it differs from their own.

No matter how fairly the referendum was enacted...even if all TV broadcasts concerning the referendum were exclusively on ASTV...They would not accept a decision that differed from their own.

The PAD do not represent the majority of the country....they consider the majority to be too dumb to vote.

PAD have no interest in the will of the people.

[geriatrickid]

I don't think that PAD can win the referendum, because the PPP probably has more money to buy votes. Plus they control the TV channels. Sondhi has no access to the regular TV channels (only his satelite ASTV, which most people in the North don't get to see)

Even of PAD did win a referendum, Samaks buddies would just run again in their new, already created party and buy votes once more.

By the way, I predicted the referendum announcement last night already, when others thought he was going to announce that he would step down. Samak and his henchmen have been quite predictable through this whole thing.

Too much rice - not enough Protein

You've covered all your bases haven't you. If PAD can't win votes it's because of "vote buying". Absolute falsehood. It is because PAD does not represent the views of enough voters. Period.

If PAD cannot indoctrinate, it is because it doesn't have access to media? Again, an odd claim as almost all media outlets have been heavily pro PAD.

If PAD fails, it is because of Samak? More weak logic. On one hand you claim Samak is weak and has no support and yet now you claim he has mysterious powers that will allow him to control all. Can you please pick a conspiracy theory and stick with it. Thank you.

[geriatrickid]

Your post cannot be more true.

Reading some post from pro-PAD farang, I understand that they support Sondhi claims against Cambodia.

To say the truth, as long as Sondhi is not mute (maybe = in jail), as long as Jet Bunnag will not be back in charge, I do not see how the war could be avoided. Weak gvt + no professional diplomat + the army acting without care on the border + Sondhi adding fuel to the flames = war.

Anyway, Thai people (at least the PAD ones) are so excited and so frustrated that only a war could calm them.

And sadly, you are so very correct in your asssesment. I wish I could say you were wrong, because if right, it means the potential for real carnage. It's 2008 and people are still going to war over issues that do not merit the actions.

[sriracha john]

Thai Leader Promises Referendum

BANGKOK — Under pressure from anti-government demonstrators, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej of Thailand said Thursday he would hold a nationwide referendum to let the public decide how the paralyzing standoff should be resolved.

He said the timing and the specific questions of the referendum had not yet been determined, and critics said the move was a delaying tactic as the government struggled to find a way out of the impasse.

The demonstrators have occupied the grounds of Samak’s office for more than a week and he has had to find other locations to conduct government business, including a cabinet meeting Thursday that agreed on the referendum.

Samak said the vote would gauge public support for his government and for the demonstrators. But he said a special law would first have to be passed in the Senate to allow a referendum to be held.

"While waiting for the result of the referendum, the protesters can demonstrate," he said, speaking on a radio program. "I can wait." *and so, apparently, must the country wait for you to begin to display a crumb of Leadership qualities. But that's ok... Songkran 2009 should be long enough to get everything done, right ? *

Addressing the nation earlier in the day, Samak acknowledged the humiliation of being barred from his office, but said he had adapted.

"Am I ashamed that my office has been taken over?" he said. "I have to say, Yes, I’m ashamed. It is not convenient to work outside, but I can do it."

The remarks came in an hour-long broadcast in which he denied a swirl of rumors that he would step down.

He responded with bitter humor, saying, "I have to apologize to the disappointed people who were waiting for me to announce my resignation today." He said a relatively small group of demonstrators was attempting to overturn the will of the majority, who voted his party into office last December.

"I have to stay in order to preserve democracy and to protect the monarchy," he said, adding, "I have done nothing wrong."

With the nation divided and his government under pressure, Samak confirmed that Foreign Minister Tej Bunnag had resigned after just seven weeks in office. He said Mr. Tej had acted under pressure from "high-ranking people" who oppose his government.

Thailand faces a deadline of sorts for restoring order in the streets and in the government. It has just taken over the rotating chairmanship of the 10-member regional grouping, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations.

A meeting of regional leaders is scheduled for December in Bangkok.

The protests, which began in May and escalated last Tuesday with the takeover of Samak’s office, have been organized by The People’s Alliance for Democracy, an alliance of convenience of various groups that seek his ouster.

Demonstrations by the People’s Alliance weakened Mr. Thaksin before he was ousted in a coup in September 2006. The alliance accuses Samak of being a proxy for Mr. Thaksin and is seeking to remove him as well.

Thaksin is now seeking political asylum in Britain after fleeing corruption charges here. Among other things, the demonstrators say Samak’s government has plans to allow Thaksin to return and to evade conviction in court.

- New York Times / 2008-09-04

Edited September 4, 2008 by sriracha john

[Thai at Heart]

I don't think that PAD can win the referendum, because the PPP probably has more money to buy votes. Plus they control the TV channels. Sondhi has no access to the regular TV channels (only his satelite ASTV, which most people in the North don't get to see)

Even of PAD did win a referendum, Samaks buddies would just run again in their new, already created party and buy votes once more.

By the way, I predicted the referendum announcement last night already, when others thought he was going to announce that he would step down. Samak and his henchmen have been quite predictable through this whole thing.

Too much rice - not enough Protein

You've covered all your bases haven't you. If PAD can't win votes it's because of "vote buying". Absolute falsehood. It is because PAD does not represent the views of enough voters. Period.

If PAD cannot indoctrinate, it is because it doesn't have access to media? Again, an odd claim as almost all media outlets have been heavily pro PAD.

If PAD fails, it is because of Samak? More weak logic. On one hand you claim Samak is weak and has no support and yet now you claim he has mysterious powers that will allow him to control all. Can you please pick a conspiracy theory and stick with it. Thank you.

I would love to see Sondhi explain to the North and the North East on national TV his new politics. Then they would indeed have a mob in Bangkok.

[sriracha john]

I don't think that PAD can win the referendum, because the PPP probably has more money to buy votes. Plus they control the TV channels. Sondhi has no access to the regular TV channels (only his satelite ASTV, which most people in the North don't get to see)

Even of PAD did win a referendum, Samaks buddies would just run again in their new, already created party and buy votes once more.

By the way, I predicted the referendum announcement last night already, when others thought he was going to announce that he would step down. Samak and his henchmen have been quite predictable through this whole thing.

Too much rice - not enough Protein

You've covered all your bases haven't you. If PAD can't win votes it's because of "vote buying". Absolute falsehood.

We don't know that. TRT was dissolved for vote-buying (even when they would have been clear winners without it) and PPP has managed to find itself in front of the Constitution Court also for vote-buying (even when they would have been clear winners without it).

If PAD cannot indoctrinate, it is because it doesn't have access to media? Again, an odd claim as almost all media outlets have been heavily pro PAD.

Which ones? The government-controlled Channels 3, 5, 7, 9, NBT, MVTV, PTV?

To begin with, the referendum issue should be a non-starter. It's an inappropriate vehicle aimed only at stalling. It's sketchy even by PPP's own admission with an indefinite timeline that would be months and months down the line and at the end of which would prove nothing.

Is this the best the Leadership can come up with?

Edited September 4, 2008 by sriracha john

[h90]

I don't think that PAD can win the referendum, because the PPP probably has more money to buy votes. Plus they control the TV channels. Sondhi has no access to the regular TV channels (only his satelite ASTV, which most people in the North don't get to see)

Even of PAD did win a referendum, Samaks buddies would just run again in their new, already created party and buy votes once more.

By the way, I predicted the referendum announcement last night already, when others thought he was going to announce that he would step down. Samak and his henchmen have been quite predictable through this whole thing.

Too much rice - not enough Protein

You've covered all your bases haven't you. If PAD can't win votes it's because of "vote buying". Absolute falsehood. It is because PAD does not represent the views of enough voters. Period.

If PAD cannot indoctrinate, it is because it doesn't have access to media? Again, an odd claim as almost all media outlets have been heavily pro PAD.

If PAD fails, it is because of Samak? More weak logic. On one hand you claim Samak is weak and has no support and yet now you claim he has mysterious powers that will allow him to control all. Can you please pick a conspiracy theory and stick with it. Thank you.

I would love to see Sondhi explain to the North and the North East on national TV his new politics. Then they would indeed have a mob in Bangkok.

Not difficult

"get 500 Baht and vote PAD, we write in the constitution free lao kao for everyone" "Yeah super, Sondhi we love you"

[Plus]

I would love to see Sondhi explain to the North and the North East on national TV his new politics. Then they would indeed have a mob in Bangkok.

Hmm, their Assembly of the Poor is guaranteed to get MP representation, and so are a dozen of pressure groups who regularly come to Bangkok to make themselves heard. Would they go on a pitchfork march to Bangkok for letting them into the parlament instead of camping on the stairs of the Labour Ministry?

Now that would be really stupid. Do you think they are stupid?

Edited September 4, 2008 by Plus

[FreedomDude]

To begin with, the referendum issue should be a non-starter. It's an inappropriate vehicle aimed only at stalling. It's sketchy even by PPP's own admission with an indefinite timeline that would be months and months down the line and at the end of which would prove nothing.

Is this the best the Leadership can come up with?

Are you serious? Some of you guys see able to convince yourselves of ANYTHING as long as it fits your ultimate objective.

Obviously it would prove more than "nothing". It would prove whether the population wants Samak to leave or not. Seems pretty straightforward to me. And what's wrong with "months and months" if that's how long it takes to get a good answer via a referendum. Patience. Good grief, the guy was elected THIS YEAR! Calm your horses!

[Thai at Heart]

I would love to see Sondhi explain to the North and the North East on national TV his new politics. Then they would indeed have a mob in Bangkok.

Hmm, their Assembly of the Poor is guaranteed to get MP representation, and so are a dozen of pressure groups who regularly come to Bangkok to make themselves heard. Would they go on a pitchfork march to Bangkok for letting them into the parlament instead of camping on the stairs of the Labour Ministry?

Now that would be really stupid. Do you think they are stupid?

Pitchforks are so 19th century.

On the basis that in Isaan, the average age of many farmers mean that they probably wouldn't have even had a chance to graduate from high school, I would love for him to publicly state, that education should have a bearing on whether a person can vote.

[permanent_disorder]

Ghandi in action....

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/O...80902104646.jpg

Not to defend this violence,

but what I see here is a man on the ground with a black weapon by his hand,

who has just lost a fight because he foolishly came at superior forces.

I see two people overdoing subduing him in the heat of the moment,

and another person seemingly anticipating an attack by others out of frame.

Since we KNOW some of these had machettes and other deadly weapons,

and we know PAD had no idea how many they would deal with withinin minutes,

Logic dictates incapacitating some enemy within your lines to prevent being attacked from behind.

Was this guy acting beserker? We don't know, extreme violence begats extreme violence.

it's easy to do the armchair accusations, using a fraction of a second photo from a melee.

But it doesn't necessarily reveal 'The Truth'. Only a window in time.

It is in battle, PPP sent it's goon squad into battle PAD, not sending in the police.

like a rationally thinking elected body would have sent, during normal hours.

This man's blood is as much on PPP/DAAD instigator's hands as these PAD people.

More so probably, because PAD was defending their existing space, legal or not,

and the others came looking for a fight with them which CLEARLY was illegal.

And there is NO supporting evidence that this is the person who died.

But there is evidense that PPP MP's are so swayed by money and power,

that they will send in a mob in the dark of night to clear out dissenting voices .

Is this REALLY the kind of people who should run a country of peace loving people?

where you get your informations from? do you speculate or have evidence?

there a few more people knowing exactly what was going on. how people got paid to attend the DAAD demonstration and so on.

of course we could blame the policy for being not right on the spot, but if the would have done the right job there would be no PAD camp on goverment ground at all, right. but he PAD declared anarchy and take the power over, right?

i posted some pictures and my speculations here.long post, many pictures. requests for other evidence got ignored.

but since the murder is still in discussion i will repost a part.

about the murder, i read really some strange post of other bright thai visa members.

first cames the disinfomation a PAD got killed in action (defense) paid terrorist killers, bloddy murder, killer thugs and bastards the people wrote. of course murder is an uly crime.

then new informations have been coming through, the dead is a pro-goverment it was doubted because those foul playing heartless goverment would have been big propaghanda out of it.

there was no big propaghanda. biased view.

latter was it clear that the dead was not a PAD. but he was not murderd and all his own fault. PAD acting in defence because the dead must have swung for a oversize machete. evidence still lacking.

does anyone knows more about the DAAD demonstration? how many people have been attending? at what time, what street they have been walking on, was there a route approved by the police (or who ever is in charge when lunatics besiege the gverment house)? it is possible to point all this out of a map.

where and when the initial clash had happen? after the "offical" demo? is there a prove that the DAAD start it? can you exlude that the PADs have not swarming out, red shirt hunting? is it for sure that only people in a street fighting mode got involved and not peaceful demonstrants, we have for sure on both sides.

i would like to compare the fighters on both side to european foot ball hooligans. i am sure like in the football games you still have a lot of normal people also at those demos, and hools would only go after other hools (mostly). how is the thai, we beat each other a little bit up culture?

the police is often criticised here. for being absent, not protecting the PAD and coming to late to the spot. there are also as fact presented accusations that was planned and intented. prove? evidence?

in relation to this i want show two pictures from the weekend.

caption:Anti-government protesters holding home made weapons and a police shield rally in the Royal Plaza in Bangkok, Thailand, Saturday, Aug. 30, 2008. ...

caption:Anti-government demonstrators wait for riot training Saturday, Aug. 30, 2008, near Government House in Bangkok, Thailand. . ...

i think that shows clearly, in this area was no police. riot fighter even spot captured police gear. others do a riot training.

can someone point out on a map the size or the area is in the hand of this riot people. couldn't be one reason for the abscene of the police be, that the police had the order to avoid any contact, to avoid any quarrel, any reason what could those trained riot fighters as welcomed provocation?

so for sure the police is away in a very safety distance. is it now anyhow logistical possible for the police to build a safety belt or something like that. for what anyway? protect riot fighters?

one more point to the riot training picture and the often heard comment, the weapens, the training and all are just for self defense? what you think did they get some instructions on self defense?

now some videos, i spend some time watching a lot of videos, all of them TV coverage. lot of them very similar, mostly yellow shirts using sling shot or beat and stab red shirts laying on the ground. the first video contains footage of the normal DAAD demonstration, you can see a couple of protesters with wood sticks, but not all of them. also normal people of different generations enjoying their right of a walk against dictatorship.

i would like to know if there somewhere more pictures. suddendly the video switch to violence. it ends with picturesof a person who seems to have a fractured skull or a smashed head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sizynp62Lag

the second video show how this happen

i don't know if this is the dead one, but all the fights shows pretty much the evidence that this are attemps to kill. non of them looks like a dangerous street fighter machine you can only stop with the final switch off.

still only a window in time. i didn't found any coverage of the action from the red shirt team. that dosn't mean there was anything.

one minute of silence from the PAD for the dead, who kind.

there have been more TV cameras around, showing the scene from different angles, the clothes they wear, the helmets, backpacks and witnesses standing around, they could be identified. anyone knows if over there in the pirate camp internal investigations are running?

what images, propaganda or counter evidence the sondhi channel is running?