Ten Great Ways To Punish Thai Democracy

[PeaceBlondie]

If eleven PAD thugs used violence to quell their oppressors - with low caliber weapons at most - that hardly compares with Thaksin's TRT thugs, or the brutal armies of Thailand, Burma, Mexico, etc., killing their own protesters many times over the years. One way to bring down corrupt shams that masquerade as democracy is through non-violent protest.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Another way is through elections. Why don't they try that do you think?

The best way to build a more democratic Thailand is not to throw out democracy and establish a feodal state. This is what PAD wants, it's in their own statements and publications.

Even in the USA, democracy wasn't born perfect. It was imperfect, and gradually perfected over time until this day. What it however did NOT take was a military coup and the shredding of the constitution.. See the difference? You have to start somewhere to put your faith in democracy, however imperfect it may be.

[Plus]

One essential detail has been left out of that beating report.

The man had been hiding an air rifle and his stated purpose was to make a shortcut through PAD site.

[TAWP]

I seem to remember using arms to break away from the British crown... (and becoming some of the first militias to exclusively use gerilla tactics).

The main problem is that you cannot vote to have a corrupt system changed. It's in the nature of control to prevent this. Saddam was voted in with 100% of the votes. Should we have told the Kurds to suck it up, accept to be gassed by the thousands and try to vote him out?

[h90]

Another way is through elections. Why don't they try that do you think?

The best way to build a more democratic Thailand is not to throw out democracy and establish a feodal state. This is what PAD wants, it's in their own statements and publications.

Even in the USA, democracy wasn't born perfect. It was imperfect, and gradually perfected over time until this day. What it however did NOT take was a military coup and the shredding of the constitution.. See the difference? You have to start somewhere to put your faith in democracy, however imperfect it may be.

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything. Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

In the PAD concept ALL members of parliament are elected. They told again and again but some people ignore that.

[Samuian]

I am very sad the last weeks to see so many users of Thaivisa to embrace fascism.

Think again before writing

Cheers

or resort to a dictionary and try to understand what 'fascism' is...

[angiud]

a amazingly powerful arguement for communism!

[permanent_disorder]

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything. Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

In the PAD concept ALL members of parliament are elected. They told again and again but some people ignore that.

you should go to the USA and play partisan.

anyway every of the PAD Muppets tells something different and they don't have that clear concept. tomorrow they will talk a little bit different again.

now the PAD cult ask all people to partizipate and discuss new politics. but what happen if you have an other opinion?

listen to the PAD mouthpiece TOC:

Pipob Condemns Profit-seeking Academics for Attempts to Distort New Politics

TOC

People's Alliance for Democracy leader Pipob Thongchai reiterated that new politics will open up opportunities for representatives of professional groups to help manage the country. But the PAD leader lashed out at profit-seeking academics who aim to distort the meaning and objectives of new politics in return for financial rewards.

...

The PAD leader criticized academics who seek to distort the truths about the PAD’s proposal for new politics. He said these academics are attempting to discredit the concept of new politics in return for financial compensations.

Pipob concluded his speech by saying that new politics doesn’t only focus its attention on Parliament but another crucial aspect is to encourage more public participation in national politics.

------

yup, so much about democracy. if you don't agree and believe the "truth" of the PAD cult you do it out of greed. you can not talk with Cult worshippers.

it was you who compared Sondhi & The Asphalt Campers with Gandhi, right?

have a look at their golf club collection

nonviolence, right?

[Thai at Heart]

...The PAD leader criticized academics who seek to distort the truths about the PAD’s proposal for new politics...

We speak the truth. Believe, believe! Look into my eyes, you are feeling very sleepy.

[animatic]

... people that talk about 'feudalism' in Thailand are in need of a bit more exposure to Thai culture.

Most of it comes from Thai academics themselves. Feudalism is just the most convenient English word for it.

The over-lord class has basically left in place

a control mechanism as a societal way of life.

This is SO deeply ingrained it has taken 60+ years before

the screws were taken off the people long enough for a PAD to even exist.

A mature protest movement not just students.

The structure of most of this societal mechanism resembles classic euro feudal societies,

much more than any other model. While being a distinctly asian version.

Thailand very much resembles what China might have become IF

communissum had lost to Nationalism in '46. Neo post conffucian feudalism.

The workings of the political machines in Issan and the north

are very much are built on the 150 year old structures of the feudal past,

with a different from of pay off to some extent, but the same top down

direction and control mechanisms.

[animatic]

I am very sad the last weeks to see so many users of Thaivisa to embrace fascism.

Think again before writing

Cheers

or resort to a dictionary and try to understand what 'fascism' is...

Ditto!

[animatic]

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything. Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

In the PAD concept ALL members of parliament are elected. They told again and again but some people ignore that.

you should go to the USA and play partisan.

anyway every of the PAD Muppets tells something different and they don't have that clear concept. tomorrow they will talk a little bit different again.

now the PAD cult ask all people to partizipate and discuss new politics. but what happen if you have an other opinion?

listen to the PAD mouthpiece TOC:

Pipob Condemns Profit-seeking Academics for Attempts to Distort New Politics

TOC

People's Alliance for Democracy leader Pipob Thongchai reiterated that new politics will open up opportunities for representatives of professional groups to help manage the country. But the PAD leader lashed out at profit-seeking academics who aim to distort the meaning and objectives of new politics in return for financial rewards.

...

The PAD leader criticized academics who seek to distort the truths about the PAD’s proposal for new politics. He said these academics are attempting to discredit the concept of new politics in return for financial compensations.

Pipob concluded his speech by saying that new politics doesn’t only focus its attention on Parliament but another crucial aspect is to encourage more public participation in national politics.

------

yup, so much about democracy. if you don't agree and believe the "truth" of the PAD cult you do it out of greed. you can not talk with Cult worshippers.

it was you who compared Sondhi & The Asphalt Campers with Gandhi, right?

have a look at their golf club collection

nonviolence, right?

You contradict your self at a regular warp speed.

If they are NOT all saying the same thing,

a ) how can they all be mindless sheep,

since even the leaders are free to disagree on stage.

b ) if people are paid to disagree with you why not protest that.

You rail on and on, but make less and less rational arguments.

I suspect most people see that by now.

Mahatma Ghandi carried a stick, bigger than a golf club.

Edited September 24, 2008 by animatic

[IAmMarchHare]

Another way is through elections. Why don't they try that do you think?

The best way to build a more democratic Thailand is not to throw out democracy and establish a feodal state. This is what PAD wants, it's in their own statements and publications.

Even in the USA, democracy wasn't born perfect. It was imperfect, and gradually perfected over time until this day. What it however did NOT take was a military coup and the shredding of the constitution.. See the difference? You have to start somewhere to put your faith in democracy, however imperfect it may be.

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything.

Rotten, as all governments seem to become eventually. What I see in US politics and the discussions I see here is that only two alternatives seem to be presented as though there are no others. IMO, both PAD and PPP/TRT leaders have shown themselves to just as greedy and power hungry as the Democrats and Republicans. As long as people are locked into this "us" vs. "them" mentality, it isn't going to change for the better.

Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

And, just how do you know that? You don't, and that's a very naive comment. Just what percentage of people died in the US Civil War? Do you really believe it would be any less today? I would argue it would be the same or more simply because US politics has become more polarized the past two decades rather than less.

In the PAD concept ALL members of parliament are elected. They told again and again but some people ignore that.

Calling it "elected" does not make it so. It has become quite clear that 30% are to be appointed.

[h90]

Another way is through elections. Why don't they try that do you think?

The best way to build a more democratic Thailand is not to throw out democracy and establish a feodal state. This is what PAD wants, it's in their own statements and publications.

Even in the USA, democracy wasn't born perfect. It was imperfect, and gradually perfected over time until this day. What it however did NOT take was a military coup and the shredding of the constitution.. See the difference? You have to start somewhere to put your faith in democracy, however imperfect it may be.

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything.

Rotten, as all governments seem to become eventually. What I see in US politics and the discussions I see here is that only two alternatives seem to be presented as though there are no others. IMO, both PAD and PPP/TRT leaders have shown themselves to just as greedy and power hungry as the Democrats and Republicans. As long as people are locked into this "us" vs. "them" mentality, it isn't going to change for the better.where did you see the PAD power hungry and greedy?? From beginning they told that they won't take any job in government

Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

And, just how do you know that? You don't, and that's a very naive comment. Just what percentage of people died in the US Civil War? Do you really believe it would be any less today? I would argue it would be the same or more simply because US politics has become more polarized the past two decades rather than less.I refer to the illegal Iraq war, one highlight you can google is the usage of napalm in Falludja

In the PAD concept ALL members of parliament are elected. They told again and again but some people ignore that.

Calling it "elected" does not make it so. It has become quite clear that 30% are to be appointed.read the statements they only speak about elected, That appointed without election only came from the PAD haters

[Los78]

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything. Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

In the PAD concept ALL members of parliament are elected. They told again and again but some people ignore that.

you should go to the USA and play partisan.

anyway every of the PAD Muppets tells something different and they don't have that clear concept. tomorrow they will talk a little bit different again.

now the PAD cult ask all people to partizipate and discuss new politics. but what happen if you have an other opinion?

listen to the PAD mouthpiece TOC:

Pipob Condemns Profit-seeking Academics for Attempts to Distort New Politics

TOC

People's Alliance for Democracy leader Pipob Thongchai reiterated that new politics will open up opportunities for representatives of professional groups to help manage the country. But the PAD leader lashed out at profit-seeking academics who aim to distort the meaning and objectives of new politics in return for financial rewards.

...

The PAD leader criticized academics who seek to distort the truths about the PAD’s proposal for new politics. He said these academics are attempting to discredit the concept of new politics in return for financial compensations.

Pipob concluded his speech by saying that new politics doesn’t only focus its attention on Parliament but another crucial aspect is to encourage more public participation in national politics.

------

yup, so much about democracy. if you don't agree and believe the "truth" of the PAD cult you do it out of greed. you can not talk with Cult worshippers.

it was you who compared Sondhi & The Asphalt Campers with Gandhi, right?

have a look at their golf club collection

nonviolence, right?

Sad isnt it that PAD grandmas cheer Sondhi and his henchmen and the men guard the with a array of weapons ready to beat to death anyone who dosent support them. These people are sick brainwashed sheep unfortunetly. And still to all you PAD fanatics the only casualty from all this was a person who was against PAD. Non violent movement... NO WAY!

[IAmMarchHare]

Another way is through elections. Why don't they try that do you think?

The best way to build a more democratic Thailand is not to throw out democracy and establish a feodal state. This is what PAD wants, it's in their own statements and publications.

Even in the USA, democracy wasn't born perfect. It was imperfect, and gradually perfected over time until this day. What it however did NOT take was a military coup and the shredding of the constitution.. See the difference? You have to start somewhere to put your faith in democracy, however imperfect it may be.

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything.

Rotten, as all governments seem to become eventually. What I see in US politics and the discussions I see here is that only two alternatives seem to be presented as though there are no others. IMO, both PAD and PPP/TRT leaders have shown themselves to just as greedy and power hungry as the Democrats and Republicans. As long as people are locked into this "us" vs. "them" mentality, it isn't going to change for the better.where did you see the PAD power hungry and greedy?? From beginning they told that they won't take any job in government

OK, I guess I'm starting to see that anything that comes from PAD is all goodness and enlightenment, according to your view.

Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

And, just how do you know that? You don't, and that's a very naive comment. Just what percentage of people died in the US Civil War? Do you really believe it would be any less today? I would argue it would be the same or more simply because US politics has become more polarized the past two decades rather than less.I refer to the illegal Iraq war, one highlight you can google is the usage of napalm in Falludja

You still haven't answered the question. You are assuming that just because it is possible in Thailand to have a bloodless coup that that is how it works in other parts of the world. Your assertion that lives would have been spared if the US had a coup is naive. Unless, of course, what you are actually saying is that American lives are worth less than others, in which case you are blind in more than just one area.

In the PAD concept ALL members of parliament are elected. They told again and again but some people ignore that.

Calling it "elected" does not make it so. It has become quite clear that 30% are to be appointed.read the statements they only speak about elected, That appointed without election only came from the PAD haters

Yes, they "speak about elected", but that does not make it so. While it is theoretically possible that there will be an election of sorts for the 30% of MPs to not be chosen by the general public, it is unlikely, and it is most likely an abuse of the term "elected". What will probably happen in reality is that cronyism will take over and they will be appointed rather than elected. You know, if that form of democracy is what Thais want, that's well and fine, but please call it what it is.

[h90]

at: IAmMarchHare (quotes deleted)

just two comments:

Any evidence on the greed and power hungry of the PAD???

If the army would have made a coup in Germany or USA and just take the crazy guy if it is Hitler or Bush in jail instead of following the criminal orders, would that be so bad? Or at least like Anupong just don't follow the order to kill or harm people....than the world would be a much better place. Of course that's naive, but I just don't give it up. The PAD shows that slowly but sure you can change a country peacefully to something better. Still their support is growing.

[IAmMarchHare]

@h90:

Not sure why I'm wasting my time here, as I doubt you'll ever agree. You know, you just don't have to look too far to recognize the entire thing as a vendetta against Thaksin. Sondhi has an axe to grind. He wants things his way and when he wants it. He wants the control (the power), and his actions show he will stop at nothing to get it. That includes accusing his opponents of the unmentionable crime. He started a vendetta against Thaksin, and he wasn't satisfied until the threat of bloodshed led to the military taking over. So, he got what he wanted ... for a while.

However, then events took an unexpected turn. Thailand had an election and supporters of his opponent won. Shocking! So, he again turned to whipping people into a frenzy and trying to ouster his opponent's supporters. However, this time, he wants to make sure that what he wants stays, and his best bet at doing that is to marginalize the poor, the uneducated and the rural (not necessarily the same people in each group, but they are often presented as a single entity). He wants to shift power to the military and to the "educated middle class" because those are the ones who support him.

In short, he is a bitter, vengeful egotist who loves the spotlight and wants it to be his way or the highway. His rather anti-democratic pronouncements that the poor and the rural farmers are too uneducated to vote is just the proof that what he seeks is the limelight and the power.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...government.html says:

"They also want to disenfranchise the rural poor who have consistently voted for Mr Thaksin, and his populist successor Mr Samak, on the grounds that they are too simple to choose their leaders wisely."

and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...of-the-PAD.html says:

"'I think it now smacks of a proto-fascist organisation, which is not how it started out,' said Dr Giles Ungphakorn of Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. 'They've started to sing songs on the stage that were sung by ultra nationalists in the '70s, calling their enemies a dead weight on the land.'"

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sondhi_Limthongkul

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/thai-s19.shtml

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/20...hi-limthongkul/

http://www.theasiamediaforum.org/node/367

Please note that this does not in any way exonerate his opposition, either.

at: IAmMarchHare (quotes deleted)

just two comments:

Any evidence on the greed and power hungry of the PAD???

If the army would have made a coup in Germany or USA and just take the crazy guy if it is Hitler or Bush in jail instead of following the criminal orders, would that be so bad? Or at least like Anupong just don't follow the order to kill or harm people....than the world would be a much better place. Of course that's naive, but I just don't give it up. The PAD shows that slowly but sure you can change a country peacefully to something better. Still their support is growing.

Actually to "change a country peacefully" is rarely done via military coup!

Hitler was a charismatic leader in his day, and he had a lot of popular support at the time because he helped to bring them out of desperate times. It was only after he had garnered a certain level of control that some started to realize what was going on, but most didn't catch on until it was too late. George Bush is not charismatic, and he took over in a time of relative prosperity. FWIW, this brings the thread close enough to Godwin's Law that I'm going to quite monitoring it.

[h90]

@h90:

Not sure why I'm wasting my time here, as I doubt you'll ever agree. You know, you just don't have to look too far to recognize the entire thing as a vendetta against Thaksin. Sondhi has an axe to grind. He wants things his way and when he wants it. He wants the control (the power), and his actions show he will stop at nothing to get it. That includes accusing his opponents of the unmentionable crime. He started a vendetta against Thaksin, and he wasn't satisfied until the threat of bloodshed led to the military taking over. So, he got what he wanted ... for a while.

However, then events took an unexpected turn. Thailand had an election and supporters of his opponent won. Shocking! So, he again turned to whipping people into a frenzy and trying to ouster his opponent's supporters. However, this time, he wants to make sure that what he wants stays, and his best bet at doing that is to marginalize the poor, the uneducated and the rural (not necessarily the same people in each group, but they are often presented as a single entity). He wants to shift power to the military and to the "educated middle class" because those are the ones who support him.

In short, he is a bitter, vengeful egotist who loves the spotlight and wants it to be his way or the highway. His rather anti-democratic pronouncements that the poor and the rural farmers are too uneducated to vote is just the proof that what he seeks is the limelight and the power.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...government.html says:

"They also want to disenfranchise the rural poor who have consistently voted for Mr Thaksin, and his populist successor Mr Samak, on the grounds that they are too simple to choose their leaders wisely."

and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...of-the-PAD.html says:

"'I think it now smacks of a proto-fascist organisation, which is not how it started out,' said Dr Giles Ungphakorn of Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. 'They've started to sing songs on the stage that were sung by ultra nationalists in the '70s, calling their enemies a dead weight on the land.'"

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sondhi_Limthongkul

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/thai-s19.shtml

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/20...hi-limthongkul/

http://www.theasiamediaforum.org/node/367

Please note that this does not in any way exonerate his opposition, either.

at: IAmMarchHare (quotes deleted)

just two comments:

Any evidence on the greed and power hungry of the PAD???

If the army would have made a coup in Germany or USA and just take the crazy guy if it is Hitler or Bush in jail instead of following the criminal orders, would that be so bad? Or at least like Anupong just don't follow the order to kill or harm people....than the world would be a much better place. Of course that's naive, but I just don't give it up. The PAD shows that slowly but sure you can change a country peacefully to something better. Still their support is growing.

Actually to "change a country peacefully" is rarely done via military coup!

Hitler was a charismatic leader in his day, and he had a lot of popular support at the time because he helped to bring them out of desperate times. It was only after he had garnered a certain level of control that some started to realize what was going on, but most didn't catch on until it was too late. George Bush is not charismatic, and he took over in a time of relative prosperity. FWIW, this brings the thread close enough to Godwin's Law that I'm going to quite monitoring it.

So you mean all that huge corruption from Thaksin simply did not happen? That are just ill dreams from Sondhi?

The 3000 dead (50% innocent) in the war against drugs are OK, never mind no problem?

The 2.000.000 Baht in the cookie box were just a missunderstanding.

I almost forgot: The vote buying didn't happen as well?

[Ricardo]

Another way is through elections. Why don't they try that do you think?

The best way to build a more democratic Thailand is not to throw out democracy and establish a feodal state. This is what PAD wants, it's in their own statements and publications.

Even in the USA, democracy wasn't born perfect. It was imperfect, and gradually perfected over time until this day. What it however did NOT take was a military coup and the shredding of the constitution.. See the difference? You have to start somewhere to put your faith in democracy, however imperfect it may be.

Not a military coup, just a revolution against the (then considered to be) legitimate authority, followed by a bloody civil-war.

Regarding the shredding of the constitution, there appear to be several groups currently proposing changes to the latest Thai one, they include the PPP-led coalition-government, the PAD-leadership and Thai political academics. Perhaps this is part of the process of democratic-evolution, which is still on-going, here as in the USA ?

[Ricardo]

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything. Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

Actually I imagine that most would have been dead by now anyway. Or extremely aged.

Sorry ... I couldn't resist it.

[permanent_disorder]

So you mean all that huge corruption from Thaksin simply did not happen? That are just ill dreams from Sondhi?

The 3000 dead (50% innocent) in the war against drugs are OK, never mind no problem?

"Your Commie has no regard for human life, not even of his own. Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual -- certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. Later in the night, i will order my subordinates to strip off their uniforms ..."

"No, just only one died. For me, no deaths, one unlucky Commie had been shot in the guts and eventually died in Sanam Luang. Only one Commie by that day. What's wrong to be the right-wing if it is? The left-wing is communist. We should continue to fight, regardless of the colour of their shirts "

"The way to solve the problem is to get the people on your side, if we cannot make them surrender, then we have no choice: the assignment is to kill Commies from all walks of life. If i were to lead the mob, the battle would be finished in three hours. To get the tiger cub you have to go to the tiger's cave, fish in the water and the rice in the field"

"But there are lots of rumors that this Commie and his cabinet ministers have engaged in many illicit sexual reveries—that Commie has been unfaithful to his wife. There is even a toddler who looks astonishingly like the Commie. All these still can be proven. So we Truths about the Commie’s notorious sexual life will surely surface after his fall from power. That Commie is like the HIV virus that can destroy immunity and mutate to render immunizing agents useless, making it difficult to develop a vaccine to fight it. "

"The Thai-Chinese, Chanchai Ruayrungruang – also a member of the Chinese Communist Party helps evil hel_l hound string puppet proxies squareface money, many. His name is Yian Pin, Yan Bin, proxies chairman underground Commie, Thai Rak Thai branch in Beijing, i say. Get Out, Get Out.

If we want to change Thailand for the better, getting rid of a few individuals won't do it. Not just Thaksin. Not just Samak. But all 60 million plus of us. "

check pic and text for links and sources. think for yourself.

Edited September 25, 2008 by sabaijai
font size reduced

[Plus]

^

<deleted>?

[h90]

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything. Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

Actually I imagine that most would have been dead by now anyway. Or extremely aged.

Sorry ... I couldn't resist it.

The Iraqis?

[Ricardo]

USA democratic system is complete rotten. Two parties with almost the same concept and a few families who control everything. Instead starting war it would have been good if there would have been a coup in USA. 1.5 Million people would be alive.

Actually I imagine that most would have been dead by now anyway. Or extremely aged.

Sorry ... I couldn't resist it.

The Iraqis?

I took this to be a reference to the American Civil War. Iraq ? hummm ...