Cash Saving To Be Wiped Out!

[dotcom]

Stunning fall in the Aussie dollar recently. from .96 per one US$ to today's .66

pound off 15%

Swiss franc sounds good to me. Backed by gold.

[lannarebirth]

Stunning fall in the Aussie dollar recently. from .96 per one US$ to today's .66

pound off 15%

Swiss franc sounds good to me. Backed by gold.

Swiss banks get emergency funds to fight crisis | Reuters

[Naam]

Stunning fall in the Aussie dollar recently. from .96 per one US$ to today's .66

pound off 15%

Swiss franc sounds good to me. Backed by gold.

only in wet dreams

[glyph]

"I am UK based so I really only monitor the UK."

Ah. There are several ways to expand an economy. One of them is to lower a price, and induce people to consume. That works for canned soup, cars, and money. Since you mentioned the latter, let's stick with that.

The current monetary crisis has to do with a "credit crunch". There are a couple ways to handle that. We can lower the threshold to lend money - and we've seen what that does. We can also lower the cost of money, that is, lower the interest rates. However, EVERY economy - not just pre-war Germany - uses the same economic fundamentals. Every country expands its money supply, every country and economy has inflation. I don't understand your concern.

[cocopops]

The last time I was aware of a western country printing money and lowering interest rates was Germany between WW1 and WW2. All savings were deliberately annihilated (with huge social consequences) to effectively end German debts from WW1. Will the same happen again in terms of wiping out cash savings – my thoughts are yes it will, but what to do about it?

Since the website you read this stuff on was owned by a chap running a gold-centric investment firm, why not buy gold?

OK I am actually interested - what web site are you referring to? Please post the link (you're not talking about the BBC link posted are you?) - I am just going by historical data on what happened.

As to gold - not really my thing, a rather tasteless metal. Good for the electronics industry though (does not corrode and is a good conductor) and I believe is going down in value, which would be correct if we are moving into recession – people will be buying less electronic goods and this industry is the world's biggest consumer of gold.

The Daily reckoning is probably the most respectable. You'll find some folks who share your skepticism of fiat currencies (as well as some more moderate voices) linked here: http://www.marketoracle.co.uk.

Arguing that consumption of consumer electronics drives gold prices is nothing short of ridiculous.

[pkrv]

Hi glyph - I think you are talking about capitalism? - I can only express my concerns in these terms - UK inflation 5.2% interest rates 4.5% and the gap is widening. If you don't see my concern well fine, I'll just stick to my guns.

Hi cocopops - thanks for the link though I instinctively backed off from reading too much. As to gold well who knows, I have made a comment based on what I know today, tomorrow it may all change and all be well with the world. But perhaps I should add something here. I have a very specific problem - I have some cash in a UK SIPP (pension) with a current interst rate of 3.55%. I have no control over this everything is locked in, and I can only buy some specific things:

'You can invest in stocks and shares quoted on the London Stock Exchange, this includes exchange traded funds (iShares), shares quoted on the Alternative Investment Market ("AIM") and investment trusts. A range of US and European shares is also available.

You can only buy UK quoted shares that can be settled via CREST. This includes more than 3,000 UK quoted and AIM listed shares, this accounting for approximately 98% of the market.

You can also invest in unit trusts, open ended investment companies (OEICs), warrants, covered warrants and a range of government stock and fixed interest stock.

You will have access to approximately 1,900 unit trusts and OEICs. All initial commission and any specially negotiated discounts on unit trusts and OEICs are passed on to your SIPP. You can deal in most unit trusts and OEICs online with all other unit trusts and OEICs '

Which are all going through the floor, which is why I moved to cash some years ago. Any thoughts?

[Naam]

"I am UK based so I really only monitor the UK."

Ah. There are several ways to expand an economy. One of them is to lower a price, and induce people to consume. That works for canned soup, cars, and money. Since you mentioned the latter, let's stick with that.

The current monetary crisis has to do with a "credit crunch". There are a couple ways to handle that. We can lower the threshold to lend money - and we've seen what that does. We can also lower the cost of money, that is, lower the interest rates. However, EVERY economy - not just pre-war Germany - uses the same economic fundamentals. Every country expands its money supply, every country and economy has inflation. I don't understand your concern.

that has already been done in various ways Glyph. but the fact remains that banks still don't lend each other (and neither to the seekers of loans) and prefer to park their surplus cash with their central banks.

reasons: hardly a single day passes without the news that X-Bank, Y-Bank or Z-Bank has announced "sorry, we found another [insert number] billions of losses.

[pkrv]

Interesting FT Article.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf...ent&src=sph

BTW does anyone know what UK goverment debt is at this time? Annuities cover this stuff, but pensions seem to be in the dumps.

<edit what took my notice was:

"The eight eligible UK banks are to raise £48 billion in new capital, of which £12 billion will be in preference shares paying a dividend of 12 per cent."

where on earth is this going to come from? Given I am UK I hope we are not going to to start WW2 again by bieng silly with money and asking for too much nor indeed reintroduce the British invention of the concentraion camp.

end edit>

Edited October 17, 2008 by pkrv

[cocopops]

Hi glyph - I think you are talking about capitalism? - I can only express my concerns in these terms - UK inflation 5.2% interest rates 4.5% and the gap is widening. If you don't see my concern well fine, I'll just stick to my guns.

Hi cocopops - thanks for the link though I instinctively backed off from reading too much. As to gold well who knows, I have made a comment based on what I know today, tomorrow it may all change and all be well with the world. But perhaps I should add something here. I have a very specific problem - I have some cash in a UK SIPP (pension) with a current interst rate of 3.55%. I have no control over this everything is locked in, and I can only buy some specific things:

'You can invest in stocks and shares quoted on the London Stock Exchange, this includes exchange traded funds (iShares), shares quoted on the Alternative Investment Market ("AIM") and investment trusts. A range of US and European shares is also available.

You can only buy UK quoted shares that can be settled via CREST. This includes more than 3,000 UK quoted and AIM listed shares, this accounting for approximately 98% of the market.

You can also invest in unit trusts, open ended investment companies (OEICs), warrants, covered warrants and a range of government stock and fixed interest stock.

You will have access to approximately 1,900 unit trusts and OEICs. All initial commission and any specially negotiated discounts on unit trusts and OEICs are passed on to your SIPP. You can deal in most unit trusts and OEICs online with all other unit trusts and OEICs '

Which are all going through the floor, which is why I moved to cash some years ago. Any thoughts?

My opinion? For what it's worth, I think you're Ok now. Cash is the place to be. You'll need it later to buy some of those assets that are currently "going through the floor". USD would be better, of course.

High inflation isn't going to survive for long because commodity prices have fallen so far the the last couple of months. The coming recession will weigh on demand and there are surely more speculative positions to unwind, so my guess is they have further to fall.

Don't worry so much about central bankers "printing money". They are more cautious than folks think, and even if they were not they're not going to create anywhere near the number of dollars being destroyed by all the writedowns and deleveraging going on at the moment.

[Naam]

Don't worry so much about central bankers "printing money". They are more cautious than folks think, and even if they were not they're not going to create anywhere near the number of dollars being destroyed by all the writedowns and deleveraging going on at the moment.

you can't destroy something that never existed. the lion share of what is written down now as losses are the fictitious profits of the past years. what is definitely lost are the millions of bonusses and "profit" shares the banksters -who are responsible for the desaster- cashed in and of course the losses investors incurred who bought shares of financial institutions.

[pkrv]

Hi glyph - I think you are talking about capitalism? - I can only express my concerns in these terms - UK inflation 5.2% interest rates 4.5% and the gap is widening. If you don't see my concern well fine, I'll just stick to my guns.

Hi cocopops - thanks for the link though I instinctively backed off from reading too much. As to gold well who knows, I have made a comment based on what I know today, tomorrow it may all change and all be well with the world. But perhaps I should add something here. I have a very specific problem - I have some cash in a UK SIPP (pension) with a current interst rate of 3.55%. I have no control over this everything is locked in, and I can only buy some specific things:

'You can invest in stocks and shares quoted on the London Stock Exchange, this includes exchange traded funds (iShares), shares quoted on the Alternative Investment Market ("AIM") and investment trusts. A range of US and European shares is also available.

You can only buy UK quoted shares that can be settled via CREST. This includes more than 3,000 UK quoted and AIM listed shares, this accounting for approximately 98% of the market.

You can also invest in unit trusts, open ended investment companies (OEICs), warrants, covered warrants and a range of government stock and fixed interest stock.

You will have access to approximately 1,900 unit trusts and OEICs. All initial commission and any specially negotiated discounts on unit trusts and OEICs are passed on to your SIPP. You can deal in most unit trusts and OEICs online with all other unit trusts and OEICs '

Which are all going through the floor, which is why I moved to cash some years ago. Any thoughts?

My opinion? For what it's worth, I think you're Ok now. Cash is the place to be. You'll need it later to buy some of those assets that are currently "going through the floor". USD would be better, of course.

High inflation isn't going to survive for long because commodity prices have fallen so far the the last couple of months. The coming recession will weigh on demand and there are surely more speculative positions to unwind, so my guess is they have further to fall.

Don't worry so much about central bankers "printing money". They are more cautious than folks think, and even if they were not they're not going to create anywhere near the number of dollars being destroyed by all the writedowns and deleveraging going on at the moment.

Hi cocopops - you are a new poster, but read posts and post your thoughts - welcome - (though I don't actually agree but that is life )

[pkrv]

Don't worry so much about central bankers "printing money". They are more cautious than folks think, and even if they were not they're not going to create anywhere near the number of dollars being destroyed by all the writedowns and deleveraging going on at the moment.

you can't destroy something that never existed. the lion share of what is written down now as losses are the fictitious profits of the past years. what is definitely lost are the millions of bonusses and "profit" shares the banksters -who are responsible for the desaster- cashed in and of course the losses investors incurred who bought shares of financial institutions.

And now you know why I use the word transparency - but in the UK we still have the death penalty for those who undermine the state and sovereignty (treason) - It is said no one asks for the money to be clawed back - I call for their money to be confiscated (clawed back), or else off with their heads.

<edit

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=amZ3uCIUB8GQ

yet another link to add to overwhelming amount of information

end edit>

Edited October 17, 2008 by pkrv

[cocopops]

Don't worry so much about central bankers "printing money". They are more cautious than folks think, and even if they were not they're not going to create anywhere near the number of dollars being destroyed by all the writedowns and deleveraging going on at the moment.

you can't destroy something that never existed. the lion share of what is written down now as losses are the fictitious profits of the past years. what is definitely lost are the millions of bonusses and "profit" shares the banksters -who are responsible for the desaster- cashed in and of course the losses investors incurred who bought shares of financial institutions.

Ah, but thanks to the wonders of fractional reserve lending, they were every bit as real as the C-note in your wallet. These profits were sitting on balance sheets helping bankers to lend out more cash and giving people and companies assets to borrow against.

Now that they are being revalued the balance sheets all look a lot worse. Bankers can't loan, people and companies can't borrow. Instead of being loaned out/deposited/loaned out again etc. bankers are hoarding cash to make the balance sheets look respectable and reduce the chances of a bank run. The "money multiplier" is hence much smaller than it was. Means there are less dollars out there, for at least a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-re...oney_multiplier

You're right in a way of course, they weren't "real" profits in the sense that there were no extra goods and services produced. But they were still having a pretty real effect on our lives.

[ray23]

Interesting post, but it seem to me you guy's are talking about a recession being forever. The world eventually overcame a depression at one point. What makes everyone believe there will not be an end to this.?

I dont think that is the case so I think your thinking short term rather then long term, So where are the long term opportunites. That mihgt be place to start. Never forget good stocks are taking a beating as well and will recover.

You know I will never get this right buy low sale high. Thought that was the idea, well they got to be low for them be purchased right?

It really seems that many never said to themselves there will be down times goes with the territory.

If it was up always you couldn't make mistakes, why would anyone do anything else. I believe today that thought process I actually makign hings worse. The no confidence factor. The financial community as far as I can tell has had it all laid out for them on a silver platter, their still not lending.

Come on guys unless history does not repeat itself which doesn't seem to be how things work. This will end. When is the question that reamins oprn in my mind. Three years, five years?

Well I wanted to know so I googled it and got this correct heck I don;t know you guys Are a lot sharper then I.

Ten years to get out the Great Depression, doesn't look like we are there yet. But they all ended with growth starting again.

Late 2000s recession 2008–20XX Current

In 2008, the possibility of an economic crisis was suggested by several important indicators of economic downturn worldwide. These included high oil prices, which led to both high food prices (due to a dependence of food production on oil production) and global inflation; a substantial credit crisis leading to the bankruptcy of several large and well established investment banks; increased unemployment; and a global recession developed.

Early 2000s recession 2001–2003 22 months

The collapse of the dot-com bubble, the September 11th attacks, and accounting scandals contributed to a relatively mild contraction in the North American economy.

Early 1990s recession 1990–1991 23 months

Industrial production and manufacturing-trade sales decreased in early 1991.

Early 1980s recession 1980–1982 25 months

The Iranian Revolution sharply increased the price of oil around the world in 1979, causing the 1979 energy crisis. This was caused by the new regime in power in Iran, which exported oil at inconsistent intervals and at a lower volume, forcing prices to go up. Tight monetary policy in the United States to control inflation lead to another recession. The changes were made largely because of inflation that was carried over from the previous decade due to the 1973 oil crisis and the 1979 energy crisis.

1973 Oil Crisis 1973–1975 24 months

A quadrupling of oil prices by OPEC coupled with high government spending due to the Vietnam War lead to stagflation in the United States.

Recession of 1957 1957–1958 12 months

Monetary policy was tightened during the two years preceding 1957, followed by an easing of policy at the end of 1957. The budget balance resulted in a change in budget surplus of 0.8% of GDP in 1957 to a budget deficit of 0.6% of GDP in 1958, and then to 2.6% of GDP in 1959.

Recession of 1953 1953–1954 12 months

After a post-Korean War inflationary period, more funds were transferred into National security. The Federal Reserve changed monetary policy to be more restrictive in 1952 due to fears of further inflation.

Great Depression 1929–1939 120 months

Stock markets crashed worldwide, and a banking collapse took place in the United States. This sparked a global downturn, including a second, more minor recession in the United States, the Recession of 1937.

Post-WWI recession 1918–1921 36 months

Severe hyperinflation in Europe took place over production in North America. It was a brief, but very sharp recession and was caused by the end of wartime production, along with an influx of labor from returning troops. This in turn caused high unemployment.

Panic of 1907 1907–1908 12 months

A run on Knickerbocker Trust Company deposits on October 22, 1907 set events in motion that would lead to a severe monetary contraction.

Panic of 1893 1893–1896 36 months

Failure of the United States Reading Railroad and withdrawal of European investment lead to a stock market and banking collapse. This Panic was also precipitated in part by a run on the gold supply.

Long Depression 1873–1896 276 months

The collapse of the Vienna Stock Exchange caused a depression that spread throughout the world. It is important to note that during this period, the global industrial production greatly increased. In the United States, for example, industrial output increased fourfold.

Panic of 1873 1873–1879 72 months

Economic problems in Europe prompted the failure of the Jay Cooke & Company, the largest bank in the United States, which bursted the post-Civil War speculative bubble. The Coinage Act of 1873 also contributed by immediately depressing the price of silver, which hurt North American mining interests.

Panic of 1857 1857–1860 36 months

Failure of the Ohio Life Insurance and Trust Company burst a European speculative bubble in United States railroads and caused a loss of confidence in American banks. Over 5,000 businesses failed within the first year of the Panic, and unemployment was accompanied by protest meetings in urban areas.

Panic of 1837 1837–1843 72 months

A sharp downturn in the American economy was caused by bank failures and lack of confidence in the paper currency. Speculation markets were greatly affected when American banks stopped payment in specie (gold and silver coinage).

Panic of 1819 1819–1824 60 months

The first major financial crisis in the United States featured widespread foreclosures, bank failures, unemployment, and a slump in agriculture and manufacturing. It also marked the end of the economic expansion that followed the War of 1812.

Depression of 1807 1807–1814 84 months

The Embargo Act of 1807 was passed by the United States Congress under President Thomas Jefferson. It devastated shipping-related industries. The Federalists fought the embargo and allowed smuggling to take place in New England.

Panic of 1797 1797–1800 36 months

The effects of the deflation of the Bank of England crossed the Atlantic Ocean to North America and disrupted commercial and real estate markets in the United States and the Caribbean. Britain's economy was greatly affected by developing disflationary repercussions because it was fighting France in the French Revolutionary Wars at the time.

Edited October 17, 2008 by ray23

[pkrv]

Interesting post, but it seem to me you guy's are talking about a recession being forever. The world eventually overcame a depression at one point. What makes everyone believe there will not be an end to this.?

I dont think that is the case so I think your thinking short term rather then long term, So where are the long term opportunites. That mihgt be place to start. Never forget good stocks are taking a beating as well and will recover.

You know I will never get this right buy low sale high. Thought that was the idea, well they got to be low for them be purchased right?

It really seems that many never said to themselves there will be down times goes with the territory.

If it was up always you couldn't make mistakes, why would anyone do anything else. I believe today that thought process I actually makign hings worse. The no confidence factor. The financial community as far as I can tell has had it all laid out for them on a silver platter, their still not lending.

Come on guys unless history does not repeat itself which doesn't seem to be how things work. This will end. When is the question that reamins oprn in my mind. Three years, five years?

Well I wanted to know so I googled it and got this correct heck I don;t know you guys Are a lot sharper then I.

Ten years to get out the Great Depression, doesn't look like we are there yet. But they all ended with growth starting again.

Late 2000s recession 2008–20XX Current

In 2008, the possibility of an economic crisis was suggested by several important indicators of economic downturn worldwide. These included high oil prices, which led to both high food prices (due to a dependence of food production on oil production) and global inflation; a substantial credit crisis leading to the bankruptcy of several large and well established investment banks; increased unemployment; and a global recession developed.

Early 2000s recession 2001–2003 22 months

The collapse of the dot-com bubble, the September 11th attacks, and accounting scandals contributed to a relatively mild contraction in the North American economy.

Early 1990s recession 1990–1991 23 months

Industrial production and manufacturing-trade sales decreased in early 1991.

Early 1980s recession 1980–1982 25 months

The Iranian Revolution sharply increased the price of oil around the world in 1979, causing the 1979 energy crisis. This was caused by the new regime in power in Iran, which exported oil at inconsistent intervals and at a lower volume, forcing prices to go up. Tight monetary policy in the United States to control inflation lead to another recession. The changes were made largely because of inflation that was carried over from the previous decade due to the 1973 oil crisis and the 1979 energy crisis.

1973 Oil Crisis 1973–1975 24 months

A quadrupling of oil prices by OPEC coupled with high government spending due to the Vietnam War lead to stagflation in the United States.

Recession of 1957 1957–1958 12 months

Monetary policy was tightened during the two years preceding 1957, followed by an easing of policy at the end of 1957. The budget balance resulted in a change in budget surplus of 0.8% of GDP in 1957 to a budget deficit of 0.6% of GDP in 1958, and then to 2.6% of GDP in 1959.

Recession of 1953 1953–1954 12 months

After a post-Korean War inflationary period, more funds were transferred into National security. The Federal Reserve changed monetary policy to be more restrictive in 1952 due to fears of further inflation.

Great Depression 1929–1939 120 months

Stock markets crashed worldwide, and a banking collapse took place in the United States. This sparked a global downturn, including a second, more minor recession in the United States, the Recession of 1937.

Post-WWI recession 1918–1921 36 months

Severe hyperinflation in Europe took place over production in North America. It was a brief, but very sharp recession and was caused by the end of wartime production, along with an influx of labor from returning troops. This in turn caused high unemployment.

Panic of 1907 1907–1908 12 months

A run on Knickerbocker Trust Company deposits on October 22, 1907 set events in motion that would lead to a severe monetary contraction.

Panic of 1893 1893–1896 36 months

Failure of the United States Reading Railroad and withdrawal of European investment lead to a stock market and banking collapse. This Panic was also precipitated in part by a run on the gold supply.

Long Depression 1873–1896 276 months

The collapse of the Vienna Stock Exchange caused a depression that spread throughout the world. It is important to note that during this period, the global industrial production greatly increased. In the United States, for example, industrial output increased fourfold.

Panic of 1873 1873–1879 72 months

Economic problems in Europe prompted the failure of the Jay Cooke & Company, the largest bank in the United States, which bursted the post-Civil War speculative bubble. The Coinage Act of 1873 also contributed by immediately depressing the price of silver, which hurt North American mining interests.

Panic of 1857 1857–1860 36 months

Failure of the Ohio Life Insurance and Trust Company burst a European speculative bubble in United States railroads and caused a loss of confidence in American banks. Over 5,000 businesses failed within the first year of the Panic, and unemployment was accompanied by protest meetings in urban areas.

Panic of 1837 1837–1843 72 months

A sharp downturn in the American economy was caused by bank failures and lack of confidence in the paper currency. Speculation markets were greatly affected when American banks stopped payment in specie (gold and silver coinage).

Panic of 1819 1819–1824 60 months

The first major financial crisis in the United States featured widespread foreclosures, bank failures, unemployment, and a slump in agriculture and manufacturing. It also marked the end of the economic expansion that followed the War of 1812.

Depression of 1807 1807–1814 84 months

The Embargo Act of 1807 was passed by the United States Congress under President Thomas Jefferson. It devastated shipping-related industries. The Federalists fought the embargo and allowed smuggling to take place in New England.

Panic of 1797 1797–1800 36 months

The effects of the deflation of the Bank of England crossed the Atlantic Ocean to North America and disrupted commercial and real estate markets in the United States and the Caribbean. Britain's economy was greatly affected by developing disflationary repercussions because it was fighting France in the French Revolutionary Wars at the time.

Great research - I liked - Britain's economy was greatly affected by developing disflationary repercussions because it was fighting France in the French Revolutionary Wars at the time - Sorry who are we in the UK at war with today I forget? I think there are one or two other issues out there as well

To your question maybe 10 years?

[LaoPo]

Come on guys unless history does not repeat itself which doesn't seem to be how things work. This will end. When is the question that reamins oprn in my mind. Three years, five years?

Well I wanted to know so I googled it and got this correct heck I don;t know you guys Are a lot sharper then I.

Ten years to get out the Great Depression, doesn't look like we are there yet. But they all ended with growth starting again.

Late 2000s recession 2008–20XX Current

In 2008, the possibility of an economic crisis was suggested by several important indicators of economic downturn worldwide. These included high oil prices, which led to both high food prices (due to a dependence of food production on oil production) and global inflation; a substantial credit crisis leading to the bankruptcy of several large and well established investment banks; increased unemployment; and a global recession developed.

Early 2000s recession 2001–2003 22 months

The collapse of the dot-com bubble, the September 11th attacks, and accounting scandals contributed to a relatively mild contraction in the North American economy.

Thanks Ray23 !

That's a lot of recessions and depressions and I'm not going to repeat them all since they make me depressed

There are quite a few differences in causes of all those recessions and only two of them took place in the internet era; the present one and the 2001/03 one.

The present one however, is one of a kind and differs from all the others and is also more dangerous than all the others.

This one, the present one, has it's origin in the creation of financial, non-needed, products invented by greedy criminal bankers and which products found their way all over the world; sold and bought by other bankers/financials who didn't even understand WHAT KIND of products they were but, they trusted the guys they bought from and made huge profits in the past with them, so THESE products were probably all right also; NO, they weren't as we all know now.

The problem is that even now we still don't know HOW MUCH BAD DEBTS are out there, hidden or not on balance sheets of banks and companies.

This single fact created the present paralyzed attitude of worldwide banks: they don't lend anymore to each other or other loan seekers. NO MORE MONEY, and no more money means that the giant world wide machine comes to a halt and disaster is born.

The help, worldwide governments created by guaranteeing the loans from their banks to others (abroad) will only help very slowly in restoring confidence as these guarantees carry a premium, to be paid to those governments, an due diligence has to be carried out which consumes a lot of time.

In the meantime the real economy can't get access to credit lines with all consequences...

The huge scale and enormous speed (INTERNET !) of all this differs from all other recessions and bubbles and I fear we have to be afraid that this recession could take longer then we anticipate.

I hope I'm wrong though.

LaoPo

[mcgriffith]

Very well said, LaoPo.

[LaoPo]

The problem is that even now we still don't know HOW MUCH BAD DEBTS are out there, hidden or not on balance sheets of banks and companies.

LaoPo

2 hours after I wrote the above I learned about another serious financial news message.

Dutch ING group (well known for it's promotion in the Formula 1 races) had to announce a loss of € 500/$ 674 Million in the 3rd quarter.

Comparison: the same 3rd quarter last year they had a profit of € 2,3 BILLION/$ 3,09 BILLION in three months !

"ING's results were hurt by 1.6 billion euros of writedowns on equity and bond investments, pressurized asset classes, losses attributable to financial counterparties and fair value changes on real estate."

ING shares dropped another 27%; a total of -60% in little over 3 weeks on the NYSE.

Just another example.... ....what else is out there ?

LaoPo

[ace]

Panic of 1907 1907–1908 12 months

A run on Knickerbocker Trust Company deposits on October 22, 1907 set events in motion that would lead to a severe monetary contraction.

It was a terrible time, carnage in women's loungerie departments the world over.

We don't have panics any more this was the last one. Why not? It seems much more accurate.

[LaoPo]

Panic of 1907 1907–1908 12 months

A run on Knickerbocker Trust Company deposits on October 22, 1907 set events in motion that would lead to a severe monetary contraction.

It was a terrible time, carnage in women's loungerie*** departments the world over.

We don't have panics any more this was the last one. Why not? It seems much more accurate.

Didn't realize you were that old already. But still doing fine I see

*** did you mean Lingerie....?

LaoPo

[Naam]

Panic of 1907 1907–1908 12 months

A run on Knickerbocker Trust Company deposits on October 22, 1907 set events in motion that would lead to a severe monetary contraction.

It was a terrible time, carnage in women's loungerie*** departments the world over.

We don't have panics any more this was the last one. Why not? It seems much more accurate.

Didn't realize you were that old already. But still doing fine I see

*** did you mean Lingerie....?

LaoPo

may i add my 2 Satangs of knowledge how "lingerie" is (derived from its pronunciation) spelled in the U.S. of A.? yes/no? if yes = "lawngeray"

[unomi]

There is no panic because we are caught in the headlights.

[GungaDin]

Where can I purchase a SCREW WALL STREET T-shirt.

Or Thank you USSA Bankers?

[flying]

Where can I purchase a SCREW WALL STREET T-shirt.

Or Thank you USSA Bankers?

Bank of Amerika??

[flying]

2 hours after I wrote the above I learned about another serious financial news message.

Dutch ING group

Wow I had half of my funds there & recently brought it back home to a credit union.

Yes I get less interest here but was worried about distance & all this mess.

Funny though I had always thought they would not be as affected.

I guess none get out alive.

[samuibeachcomber]

The problem is that even now we still don't know HOW MUCH BAD DEBTS are out there, hidden or not on balance sheets of banks and companies.

LaoPo

2 hours after I wrote the above I learned about another serious financial news message.

Dutch ING group (well known for it's promotion in the Formula 1 races) had to announce a loss of € 500/$ 674 Million in the 3rd quarter.

Comparison: the same 3rd quarter last year they had a profit of € 2,3 BILLION/$ 3,09 BILLION in three months !

"ING's results were hurt by 1.6 billion euros of writedowns on equity and bond investments, pressurized asset classes, losses attributable to financial counterparties and fair value changes on real estate."

ING shares dropped another 27%; a total of -60% in little over 3 weeks on the NYSE.

Just another example.... ....what else is out there ?

LaoPo

your posts are very well put and informative.............."what else is out there?" my aussie cash has just depreciated by 30% against the thai baht,but i can still afford a night out so all is not lost yet.

[lannarebirth]

Where can I purchase a SCREW WALL STREET T-shirt.

Or Thank you USSA Bankers?

You know, Wall Street has been selling questionable financial instruments since there's been a Wall Street. That's why it's so important for buyers to due their due diligence on products they may buy. I've heard anecdotal accounts of European banks levering these products up 40-50 times over. I wouldn't put a 50x bet on the sun even rising tomorrow morning, but maybe I'm not sophisticated enough.

[VegasVic]

Where can I purchase a SCREW WALL STREET T-shirt.

Or Thank you USSA Bankers?

Bank of Amerika??

They only call it that in the peoples Republik of Kalifornia

[VegasVic]

The last time I was aware of a western country printing money and lowering interest rates was Germany between WW1 and WW2. All savings were deliberately annihilated (with huge social consequences) to effectively end German debts from WW1.

Will the same happen again in terms of wiping out cash savings – my thoughts are yes it will, but what to do about it?

Personally I think you have misstated what happened in Germany during the early 1920’s and completely overlooked the fact that the situations are nothing alike.

TH

Thaihome, Don't ruin pkrv's little U.S. bashing party with the facts now The ironic twist to this thread is that inflation in the U.S. peaked at around 4.5% (anualized) and has been droping the last few months! Actually the dirty little secret being wispered about in the U.S. is deflation, where as in Thialand and China the inflation rates are in the double digits, hence the twist of irony!

[VegasVic]

as the op stated - there really is no way out of this mess - except to digitally print money and they are.

i would not want to be in western currencies right now BUT three in particular- pound, dollar , euro.

Here, here souchu! Might I suggest the Zimbabwe Dollar as an alternative, or perhaps the Aussie dollar, as they both seem to be headed in the same direction