Where Is Gold Going In This Market

[churchill]

Trustee to Seize and Liquidate Even the Stored Customer Gold and Silver Bullion From MF Global

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2011/12/attempt-to-seize-and-liquidate-customer.html

Ann Barnhardt does an excellent job articulating how the futures market works and how its continued operation is in serious trouble. Understand the problem is simply one of confidence, specifically the lack thereof. Decoupling of the gold futures and the cash market

http://matrixsentry.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/ann-barnhardt-explaining-decoupling/

Thanks for that ..It seems sooner rather than later ..

[midas]

Trustee to Seize and Liquidate Even the Stored Customer Gold and Silver Bullion From MF Global

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2011/12/attempt-to-seize-and-liquidate-customer.html

Ann Barnhardt does an excellent job articulating how the futures market works and how its continued operation is in serious trouble. Understand the problem is simply one of confidence, specifically the lack thereof. Decoupling of the gold futures and the cash market

http://matrixsentry.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/ann-barnhardt-explaining-decoupling/

Thanks for that ..It seems sooner rather than later ..

and then there is this.......

Ted Butler: SLV Naked Short Position Near Record Highs

"For those not familiar with this skullduggery, the big "trusts" like SLV and GLD have a sort of "loophole" where the trustee can issue new shares even before they acquire the metal to back them. This is the same as naked "short selling" of the shares -- selling shares you do not even have, and have not even borrowed from someone who does have them!

The upshot is, this (by definition) ends up depressing the price, in a situation where the trust going out and buying more metal should be BOOSTING the price. So it is actually a "double-whammy" effect of price suppression."

http://implode-explode.com/viewnews/2011-12-17_TedButlerSLVNakedShortPositionNearRecordHighs.html

Edited December 18, 2011 by midas

[churchill]

So in the US -Not even allocated gold is secure.....

Deposits of gold in the US about to move ?? If they are there

[midas]

So in the US -Not even allocated gold is secure.....

Deposits of gold in the US about to move ?? If they are there

The Silver Rush at MF Global

By ERIN E. ARVEDLUND

December 17, 2011

It's one thing for $1.2 billion to vanish into thin air through a series of complex trades, the well-publicized phenomenon at bankrupt MF Global. It's something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%.

That, in essence, is what's happening to investors whose bars of silver and gold were held through accounts with MF Global.

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424052748703856804577098740322633760.html?mod=googlenews_wsj?mod=googlenews_barrons

[Naam]

So in the US -Not even allocated gold is secure.....

Deposits of gold in the US about to move ?? If they are there

look for them here:

66 Rehypothecation Street

Bankster Quarter

City

London E1

Yewnighted Queendom

[midas]

How George Soros Ended Up With MF Global’s Client Money

" A warning to former MF Global segregated account holders: If the news has already been more than you can bear, please do not read this post — it may really push you over the edge

While the congressional hearings have been interesting, at times shocking, at other times even quite entertaining, Congress has yet to connect the dots. So I will do it for them."

http://profitimes.com/free-articles/how-george-soros-ended-up-with-mf-global%E2%80%99s-client-money/

[Naam]

How George Soros Ended Up With MF Global’s Client Money

" A warning to former MF Global segregated account holders: If the news has already been more than you can bear, please do not read this post — it may really push you over the edge

While the congressional hearings have been interesting, at times shocking, at other times even quite entertaining, Congress has yet to connect the dots. So I will do it for them."

http://profitimes.com/free-articles/how-george-soros-ended-up-with-mf-global%E2%80%99s-client-money/

what a relief! the segregated money is not lost, it's just segregated in a different pocket. then why all the hoo-ha?

[midas]

How George Soros Ended Up With MF Global’s Client Money

" A warning to former MF Global segregated account holders: If the news has already been more than you can bear, please do not read this post — it may really push you over the edge

While the congressional hearings have been interesting, at times shocking, at other times even quite entertaining, Congress has yet to connect the dots. So I will do it for them."

http://profitimes.com/free-articles/how-george-soros-ended-up-with-mf-global%E2%80%99s-client-money/

what a relief! the segregated money is not lost, it's just segregated in a different pocket. then why all the hoo-ha?

Well how about this for a start?

" MF Global illegally took segregated customer funds out of J.P. Morgan to meet margin calls in an attempt to survive the trade. It was the legislated responsibility of the U.S. government to protect this from happening."

I think you said there would be " consequences " " you are a naughty boy Corzine and don't do it again " ! slap

Edited December 19, 2011 by midas

[Naam]

Well how about this for a start?

" MF Global illegally took segregated customer funds out of J.P. Morgan to meet margin calls in an attempt to survive the trade. It was the legislated responsibility of the U.S. government to protect this from happening."

I think you said there would be " consequences " " you are a naughty boy Corzine and don't do it again " ! slap

perhaps the U.S. government will resign because having been irresponsible?

[lannarebirth]

Well how about this for a start?

" MF Global illegally took segregated customer funds out of J.P. Morgan to meet margin calls in an attempt to survive the trade. It was the legislated responsibility of the U.S. government to protect this from happening."

I think you said there would be " consequences " " you are a naughty boy Corzine and don't do it again " ! slap

perhaps the U.S. government will resign because having been irresponsible?

[fletchsmile]

you walk into one of the thousands of goldshops and either buy or sell. spread is a miniscule 200 Baht (~£5 / $6.50 / 0.85%) per ounce.

as simple as that.

If it's jewellery though and you bought in another shop, they will widen the spread further, so often pays to take it back to the one of thousands of shops you bought from in the first place

i don't think any gold investor in his right mind will buy jewelry instead of bullion which shows clearly purity and weight.

investors, right mind? have you forgotten where you are. You're not in Kansas (or should I say Kronos) now Dorothie

[fletchsmile]

Trustee to Seize and Liquidate Even the Stored Customer Gold and Silver Bullion From MF Global

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2011/12/attempt-to-seize-and-liquidate-customer.html

Ann Barnhardt does an excellent job articulating how the futures market works and how its continued operation is in serious trouble. Understand the problem is simply one of confidence, specifically the lack thereof. Decoupling of the gold futures and the cash market

http://matrixsentry.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/ann-barnhardt-explaining-decoupling/

Thanks for that ..It seems sooner rather than later ..

and then there is this.......

Ted Butler: SLV Naked Short Position Near Record Highs

"For those not familiar with this skullduggery, the big "trusts" like SLV and GLD have a sort of "loophole" where the trustee can issue new shares even before they acquire the metal to back them. This is the same as naked "short selling" of the shares -- selling shares you do not even have, and have not even borrowed from someone who does have them!

The upshot is, this (by definition) ends up depressing the price, in a situation where the trust going out and buying more metal should be BOOSTING the price. So it is actually a "double-whammy" effect of price suppression."

http://implode-explode.com/viewnews/2011-12-17_TedButlerSLVNakedShortPositionNearRecordHighs.html

Not really. It just makes practical sense. If you had to wait for them to buy and sell the gold each time you wanted to make even a small trade, nothing would get done. This also allows the fund to be more efficient in terms of netting out buys/sells throughout the day. It would be a bit silly to add and remove gold for every single trade, it would also significantly increase costs of the fund's administration, and make it less efficient in tracking the commodity price

In reality the net % change of fund that churns each day, will also be small compared to the total value of funds.

It's not that disimilar to unit trusts maintaining a manager's box, whereby the fund manager will net off creations and deletions of units, as well as sometimes hold some. Otherwise a trustee fee would be incurred for each purchase/sale.

[Naam]

you walk into one of the thousands of goldshops and either buy or sell. spread is a miniscule 200 Baht (~£5 / $6.50 / 0.85%) per ounce.

as simple as that.

If it's jewellery though and you bought in another shop, they will widen the spread further, so often pays to take it back to the one of thousands of shops you bought from in the first place

i don't think any gold investor in his right mind will buy jewelry instead of bullion which shows clearly purity and weight.

investors, right mind? have you forgotten where you are. You're not in Kansas (or should I say Kronos) now Dorothie

oops! mea culpa...

[fletchsmile]

Have to say, the posts above about your gold possibly not being there when someone else holds it, as will as the risks of not getting what you think you're buying, are two of the risks why I prefer paper gold. Neither physical or paper are without risk. Even if you keep the gold yourself there's theft, damage, etc etc even if you're lucky enough to have the real thing. We're also in a part of the world that excels at producing copies of original items, with gold being no exception

[letitbe]

Have to say, the posts above about your gold possibly not being there when someone else holds it, as will as the risks of not getting what you think you're buying, are two of the risks why I prefer paper gold. Neither physical or paper are without risk. Even if you keep the gold yourself there's theft, damage, etc etc even if you're lucky enough to have the real thing. We're also in a part of the world that excels at producing copies of original items, with gold being no exception

it does not cost much to get your gold re assayed Weve bought and sold gold for 10 years now here and Id trust the gold shops here to know what a fake is. Weve sold many times in a different shop than we bought. It seems the big gold dealers have some form of new lazer tester (very expensive). I doubt here any real gold shop would dare sell fake gold given importance of it in the culture here would be lynched. Having said that ive seen fake gold in Hong Kong but not at large gold shops more at markets. Anything is possible but im 99.99% sure our physical gold here is real. Ive even bought gold in Asia and taken it to UK and sold it without problem at scrap value (just below spot by about 2-3% if you use right people in London). They assey it themselves before paying and no problem. If you have any doubts just use Bangkok assay office to test your gold. We do also hold EFT gold Gold via HSBC in Hong Kong which is 100% safe unless HSBC go bust bullion vault moneygold and Phag silver on LSE as well as GLD on NYSE

[Naam]

I doubt here any real gold shop would dare sell fake gold given importance of it in the culture here would be lynched.

i agree, but what if the shop buys and sells fake bullion in good faith without knowing that it's fake? a solution might be to buy only the smallest available bars where the effort to fake is higher than combined risk and profit.

on top of that small bars (up to one ounce) can be bend slightly and easily. if the core is goldplated brittle Tungsten (Wolfram) the bar would show a crack.

[theblether]

Back to the OP,

As soon as there is some type of resolution to the Euro crisis Gold will start dropping. My prediction is that by 1 Jan 2015 Gold will be trading at $1250 per ounce, probably less.

Beware of the lemmings that rushed in, rushing back out again. Anyone that has purchased recently at the $1800 mark should start worrying.

[midas]

Back to the OP,

As soon as there is some type of resolution to the Euro crisis Gold will start dropping. My prediction is that by 1 Jan 2015 Gold will be trading at $1250 per ounce, probably less.

Beware of the lemmings that rushed in, rushing back out again. Anyone that has purchased recently at the $1800 mark should start worrying.

" As soon as there is some type of resolution to the Euro crisis "

but there is the rub......what kind of resolution and what about the debts?

[midas]

Back to the OP,

As soon as there is some type of resolution to the Euro crisis Gold will start dropping. My prediction is that by 1 Jan 2015 Gold will be trading at $1250 per ounce, probably less.

Beware of the lemmings that rushed in, rushing back out again. Anyone that has purchased recently at the $1800 mark should start worrying.

" As soon as there is some type of resolution to the Euro crisis "

but there is the rub......what kind of resolution and what about the debts?

theblether your prediction is based on nothing more than wishful thinking and pixie dust

The Euro Crisis: No End In Sight

" The Chinese government is actively encouraging its citizens to invest their savings in gold. Once the Pan Asian gold exchange goes live in June 2012, Chinese citizens will be able to purchase gold with the click of a mouse. We covered the launching of this exchange and the ramifications (we believe it's going to be a huge game changer and challenge the dominance of the COMEX and London metals market) it could have on the price of gold in a very recent article titled Positioning To Profit From The Pan Asia gold exchange."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/312701-the-euro-crisis-no-end-in-sight

Edited December 20, 2011 by midas

[lannarebirth]

Is it not apparent to all "gold bugs" that Gold is absolutely aligned with the "risk on" trade? How do you account for that?

[Naam]

" The Chinese government is actively encouraging its citizens to invest their savings in gold. Once the Pan Asian gold exchange goes live in June 2012, Chinese citizens will be able to purchase gold with the click of a mouse. We covered the launching of this exchange and the ramifications (we believe it's going to be a huge game changer and challenge the dominance of the COMEX and London metals market) it could have on the price of gold in a very recent article titled Positioning To Profit From The Pan Asia gold exchange."

i am used to a lot of rubbish from "seekingalpha" but this one beats it all.

[Naam]

Is it not apparent to all "gold bugs" that Gold is absolutely aligned with the "risk on" trade? How do you account for that?

there is no risk in gold... gold has been held in high esteem since milleniae... the price of a tailor-made suit in Savile Row had to be paid in gold during the time of the Roman Empire... bar fines in Sow Cowboy and fees of working girls in Walking Street have been quoted in gold since the Middle Ages... gold does not corrode... its shine was never dulled through aeons...

[midas]

" The Chinese government is actively encouraging its citizens to invest their savings in gold. Once the Pan Asian gold exchange goes live in June 2012, Chinese citizens will be able to purchase gold with the click of a mouse. We covered the launching of this exchange and the ramifications (we believe it's going to be a huge game changer and challenge the dominance of the COMEX and London metals market) it could have on the price of gold in a very recent article titled Positioning To Profit From The Pan Asia gold exchange."

i am used to a lot of rubbish from "seekingalpha" but this one beats it all.

I don't shoot the messenger as much as you do so often do so I don't know if you also class Forbes magazine as also generating " rubbish " as you put it..........

" China is now the world’s largest gold producer, and its latest five-year plan is encouraging everyone to buy more gold—either on a planned Pan Asia Gold Exchange or in chains of gold stores throughout China, where gold jewelry is all the rage. Caibai, a single shopping mall in Shanghai, did $1 billion in gold bar and jewelry sales last year."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2011/11/16/gold-chicken-soup-for-ailing-portfolios/

Edited December 21, 2011 by midas

[midas]

Is it not apparent to all "gold bugs" that Gold is absolutely aligned with the "risk on" trade? How do you account for that?

no no.... what is really "risk on" is having your fortune out there in digital format and with the prospect

of the criminal cartel deciding to confiscate it at any time when it suits their whim.........

Edited December 21, 2011 by midas

[Naam]

i don't care what Forbes writes. fact is that China never encouraged citizens to buy gold or as alleged silver. the actual message, which was meant to reduce stock market gambling was misinterpreted by one source (which had an agenda) and then taken over, as usual, by a bunch of other media.

what i consider rubbish is "with a click of the mouse" and "challenge the dominance of existing gold markets". no need to elaborate why "rubbish", some logical thinking will suffice.

[Naam]

Is it not apparent to all "gold bugs" that Gold is absolutely aligned with the "risk on" trade? How do you account for that?

no no.... what is really "risk on" is having your fortune out there in digital format and with the prospect

of the criminal cartel deciding to confiscate it at any time when it suits their whim.........

i admit that the latest developments gives your assumption some probability except for the generalisation that it applies to all assets held in "digital form".

[Naam]

let's recapitulate. if only a small percentage of the gospel, spread by goldbugs et al, was true then the price of gold would have reached already the moon. but this is not the case and evidence for it are the daily price fluctuations. period!

[midas]

i don't care what Forbes writes. fact is that China never encouraged citizens to buy gold or as alleged silver. the actual message, which was meant to reduce stock market gambling was misinterpreted by one source (which had an agenda) and then taken over, as usual, by a bunch of other media.

what i consider rubbish is "with a click of the mouse" and "challenge the dominance of existing gold markets". no need to elaborate why "rubbish", some logical thinking will suffice.

and I don't care that you are a dissenting voice. I would prefer this explanation

[Naam]

eff yewtoob

[gregb]

let's recapitulate. if only a small percentage of the gospel, spread by goldbugs et al, was true then the price of gold would have reached already the moon. but this is not the case and evidence for it are the daily price fluctuations. period!

That of course is an attempt to create a straw man and then knock it down to serve the purposes of inflating your own ego.

Gold was $277 in early January 2002. Even with the recent correction, it is up an average of 17.86% per year every year for the last decade. That is a remarkable return on investment for such a long time. And there is absolutely no reason to assume the trend is not going to continue.

The fundamental problem is energy and resource depletion causing the end of economic growth and the necessary end to debt based fiat currencies which depend on unlimited growth the fund the ever increasing interest payments. Business as usual is not sustainable, and therefore it won't be. Nothing is being said by anyone who understands what is really happening as to the time frame of collapse, only that it is inevitable.

The complete collapse of Rome took over 2 centuries (and nearly 8 centuries in the east as a shadow of its former self), but the system did finally go away, as will ours. That is why gold is now climbing, and will continue to do so. Nothing has come along to resolve the energy crisis, and only devout followers of the fundamentalist dogma in the Religion of Progress believe something will come along to save us from all our bad choices. History, geology and physics says we will collapse like everyone else who came before us.

This is the true message of those who understand the fundamentals behind gold's rise to prominence. In the short run, psychological forces may play a more important part, but over the long term, the trend can not be derailed. There may very well be a moon shot at some point in the future when the USD finally ceases to exist as a currency, but there is no telling when that will be. It could be a decade or more away.

So your conclusions are based on incorrect assumptions about what is actually going on.