Thai Culture And Materialism

[GuestHouse]

Bonobo makes a very valid observation of American attitudes to spending and while events of the last few months might lead us to believe otherwise, 'thrift' is very much part of American culture.

An observation to be made of British Culture is the disdain of 'New Money' the roots of which can be directly traced to the challenge presented to 'Old Money' and 'Old Power' by the rise of the 'New Wealthy' during the industrial revolution. This disdain of 'New Money' comes with a reverse aspect where the wealth of 'Old Money' is hidden from view or understated. So two images one of Brash and Vulgar Conspicuous Consumption of New Money and another of the Quiet and Reserved Understated Wealth of 'Old Money'.

The Footballer's wife in her designer clothes driving the latest convertible Merc and the Politely spoken old man who never mentions his title wearing old tweeds and driving his vintage car. Both sending very specific messages of who they are and where they are in society.

Caricatures of course, but illustrative of how views and values are formed.

We all carry such values from our upbringing and home cultures with us.

And when we view other cultures we make value judgments based on our own values and what we expect to see.

[bina]

its what society that you are in perceives u; my thai husband wants newest latest slimmest cell phone, although he hasnt a clue how to use 90% fo the functions (and its not able to be in thai anyway, here)... but will wear whatever shirt and jeans (we use mostly second hand stuff) he grabs. i will spend money on a pedigree dog (dont start the 'too many dogs arguement here, i work with animals, i know), and have all my furniture second hand.

however, cars and 'fancy toys' gadgets are also the big face thing here among certain of the groups ethnic wise (like with the younger arab guys set, and the city kids in general). among the villages, the latest restyle of your house, new furniture every year, and 1000 shekel (diesel) jeans (!) are the in thing, even if the fridge only has bread, veggies and milk in it.

and all the anti materialistic over 30s set wearing expensive but looking junky clothes, but spending tons to do special 'spiritual getaway' conventions and yoga retreats that only the rich can afford -'last year i did 20 days -off work, no pay-in the middle of the desert and it only cost me: place here a very large sum: to learn how to live simply. and all the folks in your office are doing these yoga retreats so the one who doesnt do them, well, must be really really poor or slummy or something.

this is the latest way to show off and have face. to do the 'lifestyle' stuff.

and dont folks in the states judge u by how much u earn in a job? thats face also.

bina

israel -- bmw and mercedes are taxis here also. volvo is a status car as is the 4X4 atv for driving on dinky little muddy roads.

[GuestHouse]

I think that is very true Bina, conspicuous consumption replaced by 'Life Style' with not a small dash of inverted snobbery.

Another observation I have is how many Farangs adopt this Thai Conspicuous consumption thing. The latest phone, the latest car (like there is a wide choice).

I work with a Scots guy who's home is in Thailand. When I first met him a year ago told me how glad he was to get this job, and how he had been living on hand outs from friends and his wife's family for months. A year later he came back from R&R with the news he's just ordered a new Lexus and how he spent £xxxx pounds on a designer handbag for his wife.

It's beyond me why anyone would so easily get hooked into all of this.

[benjamat]

The very idea that somehow the west is less materialistic than SE Asia is laughable.

What do you think has driven the west and hence the world into the deepest recession in our lifetime. Yes, you got it, greed and materialism.

Why do you think BMW, Merc, lexus etc sell. In the end they just transport you from a to b. You can buy a ford equivalent for half the price in the west. It is just materialism and face, same as Thailand.

The UK and USA especially have created a culture where house eowning is seen as necessary to have any status at all. If you look at France and Germany many more people are content to take long term leases. I dont hear anyone saying that the French or the Germans are a lower status than Brits or Yanks.

[Maigo6]

I work with a Scots guy who's home is in Thailand.

Whilst your home is in ? Saudi. Italy ?

Certainly not Thailand

And you talk about materialism, yet when you got some Bose comfort headphones, you felt it neccessary to include the fact that they are excellent, but may well be beyond many peoples pockets.

Myself I can afford any headphone I want, yet I chose the Audio Technica which in reviews wipes the floor with the Bose, ( you paid for the name ) , and you did not shy away from announcing to all here that you had paid xxxx ammount of $$$$ for them.

If that ain't materialistic, tell me what is !

[jdinasia]

Go6

and you are where most of the time? and did you just namedrop a brand name? LOL

[GuestHouse]

Whilst your home is in ? Saudi. Italy ?

Certainly not Thailand

And your point is?

[MKAsok]

Excellent - jd, Maigo & Guesthouse face off. This is like the end of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. "There are two kinds of people in this world amigo - dose who live in de Land of Smiles. And dose who don't..."

[Maigo6]

Go6

and you are where most of the time?

Since 1990, I have spent maybe 4 months total in my country of birth ( UK ), and maybe 2 years total in Japan, so I would say I live in Thailand the majority of the time. I have a house here, a Car here, a rtental here, many other things here, some Audio Terchnica headphones here, some Bang & Olufsson earphones, an iPod, 4 LCD TV's a Toyota Fortuner and 3 motorcycles.......oh nearly forgot...an old but dependable Nissan Pick up truck.

60 million baht in the bank and a 9 inch shlong...is that ok with you JD ?

Edited October 29, 2008 by Maigo6

[Maigo6]

It's beyond me why anyone would so easily get hooked into all of this.

I know how you feel, I knew a guy that spent loads of money on Bose headphones when he could have bought a better set for half the price, but you can't tell them, they just are materialistic people... he paid for the name, that's all, his money, his choice.

What can you do ?

[MKAsok]

60 million baht in the bank and a 9 inch shlong...is that ok with you JD ?

Bet your missus is a Chinese dentist as well eh? You still upcountry?

[Maigo6]

60 million baht in the bank and a 9 inch shlong...is that ok with you JD ?

Bet your missus is a Chinese dentist as well eh? You still upcountry?

LOL...............

Still up country, no the missus is now advising Steven hawking on certain matters, he just can't quite grasp it, so of course, the inevitable phone call, private jet, 100,000 USD seminars....

Gets me down a bit @ Asok, being stuck in Thailand with the 40 KG maid whilst the missus earns the crust, but...what ya gonna do ?

[Mossfinn]

Excellent - jd, Maigo & Guesthouse face off. This is like the end of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. "There are two kinds of people in this world amigo - dose who live in de Land of Smiles. And dose who don't..."

The Good the Bad and the Ugly

Just don't ask which is which

Moss

[GuestHouse]

Since 1990, I have spent maybe 4 months total in my country of birth ( UK ), and maybe 2 years total in Japan, so I would say I live in Thailand the majority of the time.

Since you were posting on on this thread until 04:15am Thailand Time, do we take it that you are enjoying part of that 4 months back in the old country?

Or perhaps you are one of the many people who's life has been very much improved by the internet?

[Samuian]

interesting off topic stuff!

materialism - I can get no, no satisfaction....!

"Oh' Lord would you buy me a mercedes benz, my friends all drive porsche...."

and some get really distressed if it doesn't happen, if the dream doesn't come true..

saw this beggar last night, nothing but some rags and his life... but a bright smile in his face!

How much is enough?

A Persian Philosopher, Abul Kasim Mansur or Firdausi, came up, in the 10th Century, with:

"Greed, the eye of avarice, all goods and treasures of this world can't fill up it's vast cave"

THe story goes that he wrote a gigantic novel, the Shah Nama - Book of Kings, presented it to the

Sultan, the Sultan "honored" Kasim with such a pityful amount of money,

that he gave it to a bath attendant and left for Afghanistan!

Edited October 30, 2008 by Samuian

[LuckyFive8888]

all people in the world are materialistic that's why we have economic problems...

[Maigo6]

Since 1990, I have spent maybe 4 months total in my country of birth ( UK ), and maybe 2 years total in Japan, so I would say I live in Thailand the majority of the time.

Since you were posting on on this thread until 04:15am Thailand Time, do we take it that you are enjoying part of that 4 months back in the old country?

Or perhaps you are one of the many people who's life has been very much improved by the internet?

If you did assume I was in UK, you would be wrong.

04:15 may be well past your bedtime as you have to work the next day, I don't .

[CroBiker]

Since 1990, I have spent maybe 4 months total in my country of birth ( UK ), and maybe 2 years total in Japan, so I would say I live in Thailand the majority of the time.

Since you were posting on on this thread until 04:15am Thailand Time, do we take it that you are enjoying part of that 4 months back in the old country?

Or perhaps you are one of the many people who's life has been very much improved by the internet?

If you did assume I was in UK, you would be wrong.

04:15 may be well past your bedtime as you have to work the next day, I don't .

Touche!

[Gary A]

Since 1990, I have spent maybe 4 months total in my country of birth ( UK ), and maybe 2 years total in Japan, so I would say I live in Thailand the majority of the time.

Since you were posting on on this thread until 04:15am Thailand Time, do we take it that you are enjoying part of that 4 months back in the old country?

Or perhaps you are one of the many people who's life has been very much improved by the internet?

If you did assume I was in UK, you would be wrong.

04:15 may be well past your bedtime as you have to work the next day, I don't .

Maigo, since you have all this free time, when are you going to come to the city and tip a few in the new watering hole? My bartender friend Nit Noi is hurting for customers so we should really spend a few baht there. I'd hate to see him go out of business.

As a side note, I have changed to Leo beer because after an Archa session, I can't get too far away from the bathroom the next day.

[Maigo6]

Maigo, since you have all this free time, when are you going to come to the city and tip a few in the new watering hole? My bartender friend Nit Noi is hurting for customers so we should really spend a few baht there. I'd hate to see him go out of business.

As a side note, I have changed to Leo beer because after an Archa session, I can't get too far away from the bathroom the next day.

Hi Gary, I was in Nong Hin on my way back from Dan Sai yesterday.

Went past the bar the other day but it was deserted, then again, it was early.

I reckon I'll be round that way on Sunday, I will look in the bar see who's there.

Edited October 30, 2008 by Maigo6

[jdinasia]

Since 1990, I have spent maybe 4 months total in my country of birth ( UK ), and maybe 2 years total in Japan, so I would say I live in Thailand the majority of the time.

Since you were posting on on this thread until 04:15am Thailand Time, do we take it that you are enjoying part of that 4 months back in the old country?

Or perhaps you are one of the many people who's life has been very much improved by the internet?

If you did assume I was in UK, you would be wrong.

04:15 may be well past your bedtime as you have to work the next day, I don't .

Hmmmm aren't you the guy that pointed out anyone can claim anything on the internet!

yeah .. I think that was you!

But good on you for claiming to be so materialistic

[unomi]

I have to say that conspicuous consumerism pisses me off.

We seem to have accepted and perpetuate the notion that we are to be defined by the goods we consume.

That is of course simply sad and too bad but doesn't really piss me off much, just worries me.

What does piss me off is what this means to the future and those that will live in it.

The problem is that our current economies do not factor in the true costs, instead prices are dictated by the value added by social engineering (pr, advertising, product placement, design psychology and so on).

We are by and large induced to buy a slew of products and services that offer the convenience we need in order to offset our inability to overcome the artifacts of this coercion into extreme 'selfhood'.

We are currently in the process of stripping the planet of natural resources by means of extraction, degradation and extinction.

As with government debt it amounts to stealing from future generations.

This is not a Thai phenomenon it is a worldwide epidemic, every country will have more than their fair share of people who simply do not know better, and for the most part are too heavily invested to accept even the potential of alternatives.

It *is* a shame that this too affects Thailand, and I suspect that the OP, as I, wrote out of disappointment that such a beautiful country with such a lovely people should fall victim to The Trap.

[Maigo6]

Since 1990, I have spent maybe 4 months total in my country of birth ( UK ), and maybe 2 years total in Japan, so I would say I live in Thailand the majority of the time.

Since you were posting on on this thread until 04:15am Thailand Time, do we take it that you are enjoying part of that 4 months back in the old country?

Or perhaps you are one of the many people who's life has been very much improved by the internet?

If you did assume I was in UK, you would be wrong.

04:15 may be well past your bedtime as you have to work the next day, I don't .

Hmmmm aren't you the guy that pointed out anyone can claim anything on the internet!

yeah .. I think that was you!

But good on you for claiming to be so materialistic

Yes I am materialistic, I like nice expensive toys, don't we all ?

[sylviex]

An observation to be made of British Culture is the disdain of 'New Money' the roots of which can be directly traced to the challenge presented to 'Old Money' and 'Old Power' by the rise of the 'New Wealthy' during the industrial revolution. This disdain of 'New Money' comes with a reverse aspect where the wealth of 'Old Money' is hidden from view or understated. So two images one of Brash and Vulgar Conspicuous Consumption of New Money and another of the Quiet and Reserved Understated Wealth of 'Old Money'.

These attitudes have been inherited by many Australians.

We all carry such values from our upbringing and home cultures with us.

And when we view other cultures we make value judgments based on our own values and what we expect to see.

Absolutely; that's why one of the first steps in understanding another culture is knowing your own.

Here's an excerpt from an article by a Thai:

Know your place – don't poo like an elephant

A Thai proverb that is a good reflection of how Thais perceive people with different social and

economic status is: 'See an elephant poo, don't you poo like an elephant.' An elephant is

compared to the rich and powerful; it is a warning to people who aren't rich or powerful not to

imitate what the rich can do. The elephant in this case is equivalent to the tall poppy in the

Australian culture. Thai people don't have the "Tall Poppy Syndrome"; we do not cut down the tall

poppies. Rather, the tall poppies are revered. It is a society's norm to aspire to be a tall poppy, to

be rich, to have a Mercedes Benz with a driver; to have a nanny and servants; to have all the

good things that wealth can buy. When you have these things you can show your wealth and gain

more respect and recognition.

'Face' and respect are very important in a collectivist society like Thailand. A child is born with the status pass down to him or her by the family. Thus, your family name is important because it can give an indication of your family position. Your family name indicates what you can achieve and provide because of your family network. However, social status in Thailand is fluid; you can attain face and respect with education and wealth. That is why a lot of middle class Thai families invest heavily in the education of their children. Most Thai students aspire to attain the highest degree that they can because this is a means of climbing the social ladder. Ordinary people who can't afford a higher education or a well paid job have other means to attain face and respect. The quick fix for such aspirations is entering the lottery, and this explains why lotteries and gambling in various forms are popular, especially among the poor in Thailand.

http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:GL6_dp...t=clnk&cd=1

Having money and others knowing you have money does more than bring buying power; it brings connections with more powerful people ; it opens doors in Thai society because it brings face and respect. These connections and relationships do make life easier here in a way that's not comparable in "The West".

The same article mentions that being poor is associated with having bad karma so I guess that making money makes merit and does not run counter to the Buddha's teaching .

Edited October 30, 2008 by sylviex

[HS Mauberley]

What does piss me off is what this means to the future and those that will live in it.

The problem is that our current economies do not factor in the true costs, instead prices are dictated by the value added by social engineering (pr, advertising, product placement, design psychology and so on).

We are by and large induced to buy a slew of products and services that offer the convenience we need in order to offset our inability to overcome the artifacts of this coercion into extreme 'selfhood'.

We are currently in the process of stripping the planet of natural resources by means of extraction, degradation and extinction.

Amen to that. We've put the future in hock for a handful of shiny baubles.

There died a myriad

And of the best, among them,

For an old bitch gone in the teeth,

For a botched civilisation

And good call on the Adam Curtis documentary; all his stuff is worth repeated viewing (all were available on torrents).

Edited October 30, 2008 by HS Mauberley

[Samuian]

'Face' and respect are very important in a collectivist society like Thailand. A child is born with the status pass down to him or her by the family. Thus, your family name is important because it can give an indication of your family position. Your family name indicates what you can achieve and provide because of your family network. However, social status in Thailand is fluid; you can attain face and respect with education and wealth. That is why a lot of middle class Thai families invest heavily in the education of their children. Most Thai students aspire to attain the highest degree that they can because this is a means of climbing the social ladder. Ordinary people who can't afford a higher education or a well paid job have other means to attain face and respect. The quick fix for such aspirations is entering the lottery, and this explains why lotteries and gambling in various forms are popular, especially among the poor in Thailand.

http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:GL6_dp...t=clnk&cd=1

Having money and others knowing you have money does more than bring buying power; it brings connections with more powerful people ; it opens doors in Thai society because it brings face and respect. These connections and relationships do make life easier here in a way that's not comparable in "The West".

The same article mentions that being poor is associated with having bad karma so I guess that making money makes merit and does not run counter to the Buddha's teaching .

I don't care about all these made up rules of "who is who" in society. I strictly oppose this BS and think that the final "conclusion" of being poor results from "bad karma" is extra topping of the already high ranking Arrogance in this article!

As if life circles only around material wealth, face, tall poppies, riches, mega bucks and the entire rest of this "glitz high gloss en vogue magazine" illusion!

I fell deeply sorry for those trapped in there!

The "faceless" are the platform which forms the support for the "high flyer" life of those "Hi-So" Glitz-People!

remember: "behind every great wealth is usually a big crime"!

Edited October 30, 2008 by Samuian

[HS Mauberley]

'Face' and respect are very important in a collectivist society like Thailand. A child is born with the status pass down to him or her by the family. Thus, your family name is important because it can give an indication of your family position. Your family name indicates what you can achieve and provide because of your family network. However, social status in Thailand is fluid; you can attain face and respect with education and wealth. That is why a lot of middle class Thai families invest heavily in the education of their children. Most Thai students aspire to attain the highest degree that they can because this is a means of climbing the social ladder. Ordinary people who can't afford a higher education or a well paid job have other means to attain face and respect. The quick fix for such aspirations is entering the lottery, and this explains why lotteries and gambling in various forms are popular, especially among the poor in Thailand.

I can't see much there that doesn't describe British society. Nobody likes to be made a fool of (as any number of threads on this board amply demonstrate); parental wealth is a very good indicator of an individual's chances in life; the middle class spend a ton on education and education has historically been one of the entry points into the middle class by aspirant working class parents; education is valued instrumentally; the lottery is enormously popular amongst the poor. What's to distinguish Britain from Thailand in this?

Edited October 30, 2008 by HS Mauberley

[sylviex]

What does piss me off is what this means to the future and those that will live in it.

The problem is that our current economies do not factor in the true costs, instead prices are dictated by the value added by social engineering (pr, advertising, product placement, design psychology and so on).

We are by and large induced to buy a slew of products and services that offer the convenience we need in order to offset our inability to overcome the artifacts of this coercion into extreme 'selfhood'.

We are currently in the process of stripping the planet of natural resources by means of extraction, degradation and extinction.

Amen to that. We've put the future in hock for a handful of shiny baubles.

There died a myriad

And of the best, among them,

For an old bitch gone in the teeth,

For a botched civilisation

And good call on the Adam Curtis documentary; all his stuff is worth repeated viewing (all were available on torrents).

Totally agree, Unomi and HSMauberley.

Decades ago and centuries ago, in numerous cultures, parents (schools, religions, cultures) taught their kids that greed is not good, money is not god and moderation and restraint are to be valued. This kind of thinking does seem to be being drowned out by the voices urging us to ... just buy more and more.

Perhaps there's another hippie generation around the corner.

[sylviex]

I don't care about all this made up rules and I strictly oppose this BS and think that the final "conclusion" of being poor resultsfrom "bad karma" is extra topping of the already high ranking Arrogance in this article!

The article was written by a Thai and expresses her understanding of Thai culture from a Thai/Australian intercultural perspective.

I find it interesting, because the "tall poppy" factor is definitely a difference (but not one that might apply to Britain, perhaps).

Edited October 30, 2008 by sylviex

[HS Mauberley]

^ The problem with all those types of articles is that they assume that there's some kind of readily identifiable culture which is contiguous with - and as easily distinguished as - national boundaries. This seems straightforwardly ridiculous. For example, I (Southern British, middle class) live in the rural north of Thailand with my wife (Bangkok, middle class); she teaches at a local college yet she probably has a greater shared culture with me than with her students. Meanwhile, I probably have more in common with someone in Paris, or Buenos Aires, than I do with someone from South Wales.

Edited October 30, 2008 by HS Mauberley