Thai Culture And Materialism

[sylviex]

^ The problem with all those types of articles is that they assume that there's some kind of readily identifiable culture which is contiguous with - and as easily distinguished as - national boundaries. This seems straightforwardly ridiculous. For example, I (Southern British, middle class) live in the rural north of Thailand with my wife (Bangkok, middle class); she teaches at a local college yet she probably has a greater shared culture with me than with her students. Meanwhile, I probably have more in common with someone in Paris, or Buenos Aires, than I do with someone from South Wales.

I do take your point, but at the same time I think there are values specific to cultures "overall" that are roughly measurable and undeniable. I also wanted to highlight the fact that our interpretations of other cultures are coloured by our own cultural (& personal) values.

What the OP noticed was the conspicuousness of the car-and-phone flashing. So far as I know, that is still generally frowned on in Australia. It's the obviousness and unabashedness of the hierarchical society & of materialism here, that some of us notice.

Edited October 30, 2008 by sylviex

[maccaroni man]

I have to say that conspicuous consumerism pisses me off.

We seem to have accepted and perpetuate the notion that we are to be defined by the goods we consume.

That is of course simply sad and too bad but doesn't really piss me off much, just worries me.

What does piss me off is what this means to the future and those that will live in it.

The problem is that our current economies do not factor in the true costs, instead prices are dictated by the value added by social engineering (pr, advertising, product placement, design psychology and so on).

We are by and large induced to buy a slew of products and services that offer the convenience we need in order to offset our inability to overcome the artifacts of this coercion into extreme 'selfhood'.

We are currently in the process of stripping the planet of natural resources by means of extraction, degradation and extinction.

As with government debt it amounts to stealing from future generations.

This is not a Thai phenomenon it is a worldwide epidemic, every country will have more than their fair share of people who simply do not know better, and for the most part are too heavily invested to accept even the potential of alternatives.

It *is* a shame that this too affects Thailand, and I suspect that the OP, as I, wrote out of disappointment that such a beautiful country with such a lovely people should fall victim to The Trap.

looks like you need to hug a tree.

[klikster]

Having money and others knowing you have money does more than bring buying power; it brings connections with more powerful people ; it opens doors in Thai society because it brings face and respect. These connections and relationships do make life easier here in a way that's not comparable in "The West".

People who are worth being connected with will be able to learn that you have money without seeing any of your symbols of materialism or status.

[bkkjames]

I have to say that conspicuous consumerism pisses me off.

We seem to have accepted and perpetuate the notion that we are to be defined by the goods we consume.

That is of course simply sad and too bad but doesn't really piss me off much, just worries me.

What does piss me off is what this means to the future and those that will live in it.

The problem is that our current economies do not factor in the true costs, instead prices are dictated by the value added by social engineering (pr, advertising, product placement, design psychology and so on).

We are by and large induced to buy a slew of products and services that offer the convenience we need in order to offset our inability to overcome the artifacts of this coercion into extreme 'selfhood'.

We are currently in the process of stripping the planet of natural resources by means of extraction, degradation and extinction.

As with government debt it amounts to stealing from future generations.

This is not a Thai phenomenon it is a worldwide epidemic, every country will have more than their fair share of people who simply do not know better, and for the most part are too heavily invested to accept even the potential of alternatives.

It *is* a shame that this too affects Thailand, and I suspect that the OP, as I, wrote out of disappointment that such a beautiful country with such a lovely people should fall victim to The Trap.

looks like you need to hug a tree.

Hey Mac Man, I love your screen name. Can I have it? When I set up mine, I thought I would go with someone simple, something I wouldn't forget but yours is much much better.

With a screename like Macaroni Man there is so much potential. "Geeze Mac Man, that was a cheesy comment". "Hey noodle brain", you are off topic or my favorite, "is that an elbow in your pocket or are just glad to see me."

BOT, Materialism is everywhere - even in good old communist china. As the soon to be ex of Mr Richie sang, "we are living in a material world".

[HS Mauberley]

I do take your point, but at the same time I think there are values specific to cultures "overall" that are roughly measurable and undeniable. I also wanted to highlight the fact that our interpretations of other cultures are coloured by our own cultural (& personal) values.

What the OP noticed was the conspicuousness of the car-and-phone flashing. So far as I know, that is still generally frowned on in Australia. It's the obviousness and unabashedness of the hierarchical society & of materialism here, that some of us notice.

Wwwweeeeelllll...whilst I agree that "our interpretations of other cultures are coloured by our own cultural (& personal) values." I just don't think you can make statements like "there are values specific to cultures "overall" that are roughly measurable and undeniable". I've not seen any studies like this (which obviously doesn't mean that they don't exist but given that my wife's PhD thesis was on the relationship between Thai culture and motivation in language learning and I had more than a little input into it, I'd be surprised if they do exist). It's true that people have tried to do this, but there are profound criticisms of such studies (Hofstede, in particular), criticisms which I think are sufficient to disregard the studies.

As for car-and-phone flashing, is it generally frowned on in Australia? Maybe. I don't know. In Britain, it's generally frowned on by hand-wringing eco-<deleted> like me but given the numbers of mobile phones in Britain, it's clear that people like me aren't in the majority. And given the numbers of magazines, websites and TV shows (that Jeremy Clarkson is almost a national saint) in Britain devoted to cars, it's clear that worship of the motor is the norm. My point a page or two back was that these observations aren't necessarily caused by any 'real' facts (after all, relative to the West, Thais just don't have that many cars or mobile phones) but rather are caused by a gap between expectations of Thailand (rural, quaint, pre-industrial, smiling natives riding buffaloes to work. etc. etc.) and the reality (it's making its way down the path to being as fuc_ked up as the West.)

Edited October 30, 2008 by endure
Edited for language

[Heng]

One man's conspicious consumption is another man's everyday unassuming lifestyle.

"Look at him showing off... going around wearing shoes." (The nerve, when billions of people are barefoot).

[sylviex]

It's true that people have tried to do this, but there are profound criticisms of such studies (Hofstede, in particular), criticisms which I think are sufficient to disregard the studies.

Sorry; dealing with people from many different cultures for quite a number of years tells me otherwise. I believe that people from most "Western" countries are inculturated from an early age with an idea that "we're all the same" .

My point a page or two back was that these observations aren't necessarily caused by any 'real' facts (after all, relative to the West, Thais just don't have that many cars or mobile phones) but rather are caused by a gap between expectations of Thailand (rural, quaint, pre-industrial, smiling natives riding buffaloes to work. etc. etc.) and the reality (it's making its way down the path to being as fuc_ked up as the West.)

Again, I understand your point but ... I believe what the OP is noticing is a difference in culturally acquired values which affect the *way *wealth/status is displayed.

[benjamat]

^ The problem with all those types of articles is that they assume that there's some kind of readily identifiable culture which is contiguous with - and as easily distinguished as - national boundaries. This seems straightforwardly ridiculous. For example, I (Southern British, middle class) live in the rural north of Thailand with my wife (Bangkok, middle class); she teaches at a local college yet she probably has a greater shared culture with me than with her students. Meanwhile, I probably have more in common with someone in Paris, or Buenos Aires, than I do with someone from South Wales.

Who has anything in common with someone from south wales ?

[bina]

sheep?

[dumball]

Bristolians called them 'Apaches' .

[yabaaaa]

Anyway, to return to the OP, I think one thing he may be noticing is the Asian tendency to display their consumer goodies in a different way than we foreigners perhaps might.

B I N G O ! Thank is the point I am trying to make. It is like back in school where everyone is trying to show their newset Nike and Addidas shoes. And if you are the one wearing Puma you are called a loser. However I am suprised that in the adult world people act like this with cars, handbags or mobiles. And if you do not have any of these then you are unsociable. Does not make sense at all.

Not that I do not have the money, but I do not see any reason to purchase a new mobile for 20,000 Baht every 3 months. It is better to have the money in the bank for hard.

Oh you mean like countries then who always want to show who is the best. Always makes me laugh when a lot of the Uk athletes who are black win and then we rave about them winning medals at the Olympics.

[yabaaaa]

I think that is very true Bina, conspicuous consumption replaced by 'Life Style' with not a small dash of inverted snobbery.

Another observation I have is how many Farangs adopt this Thai Conspicuous consumption thing. The latest phone, the latest car (like there is a wide choice).

I work with a Scots guy who's home is in Thailand. When I first met him a year ago told me how glad he was to get this job, and how he had been living on hand outs from friends and his wife's family for months. A year later he came back from R&R with the news he's just ordered a new Lexus and how he spent £xxxx pounds on a designer handbag for his wife.

It's beyond me why anyone would so easily get hooked into all of this.

I believe its called stupidity?

[bonobo]

Oh you mean like countries then who always want to show who is the best. Always makes me laugh when a lot of the Uk athletes who are black win and then we rave about them winning medals at the Olympics.

I don't understand your post. Are you somehow inferring that black Bristish athletes are somehow not real citizens?  I apologize if I am missing your point.

[bkkjames]

Oh you mean like countries then who always want to show who is the best. Always makes me laugh when a lot of the Uk athletes who are black win and then we rave about them winning medals at the Olympics.

I don't understand your post. Are you somehow inferring that black Bristish athletes are somehow not real citizens?  I apologize if I am missing your point.

I think what he is getting at is that for 99% of the time, local Bangkokians don't really consider Issan folk as real Thais but when they win an Olympic Gold, all of a sudden their success is Thailand's and if but for a couple of days, everyone is equal.

I could be wrong but I suspect that in the upcountry areas where a Thai boxer / weightlifter hails from, I believe that a medal won in their minds is also a win for Issan.

(just generalising so relax)

[bonobo]

Oh you mean like countries then who always want to show who is the best. Always makes me laugh when a lot of the Uk athletes who are black win and then we rave about them winning medals at the Olympics.

I don't understand your post. Are you somehow inferring that black Bristish athletes are somehow not real citizens?  I apologize if I am missing your point.

I think what he is getting at is that for 99% of the time, local Bangkokians don't really consider Issan folk as real Thais but when they win an Olympic Gold, all of a sudden their success is Thailand's and if but for a couple of days, everyone is equal.

I could be wrong but I suspect that in the upcountry areas where a Thai boxer / weightlifter hails from, I believe that a medal won in their minds is also a win for Issan.

(just generalising so relax)

You are probably right in those observations on Issan/Thailand, but in this case, it seems to my feeble mind that the poster is inferring that non-black Brits are silly for rooting for and taking pride in wins by black British athletes. But as I have hard time believing this (from my experience, for example, a majority of Brits follow if not passionately follow football--as your avatar would suggest--with little regard to the racial make-up of a team), I was asking for a clarification of just what point he was trying to make.

[Samuian]

I think what he is getting at is that for 99% of the time, local Bangkokians don't really consider Issan folk as real Thais ....

(just generalising so relax)

The same as everywhere, in Germany, we have this between Prussians and Bavarians, the Frisians one another joking about the other, but if they ever meet, usually boils down to none, except dialect.

In the US the "rednecks", the Aussies and the "pommies", english and the scottish, the irish, the frogs... name it, it's everywhere, but with very few exceptions nowhere really taken very seriously!

And the new rant about nation "divided" is about trying to bring about a divide, for political gain!

CAREFULLY!

Ethnically there was always a difference of people from the north and the north east, here in the south most outstanding the "Chao Talay", with their very own language (Malawi).

I can only state the fact, both my ex-wifes where from Bangkok, (Non' and Yannawa) both always used the phrse "Lao" about Isaan people and their language, but bought food from them, ate with them, talked with them... so what?

Edited October 31, 2008 by Samuian

[sylviex]

Thanks, HS Mauberley, for reminding about Hofstede.

Here's a very interesting website which allows you to compare the values of your home country with those of your host country: http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php . (I am not sure if this site is approved by Hofstede himself, but it's still interesting).

I think I missed what HS Mauberley was disagreeing with -- no, of course cultures don't fit neatly into national borders. However, Hofstede doesn't seem to have any problem with "measurable cultural differences", does he ? (Genuine question).

Edited October 31, 2008 by sylviex

[Samuian]

.....edit... Hofstede doesn't seem to have any problem with "measurable cultural differences", does he ? (Genuine question).

I am not Hofstede, but I find quite dazzling that there is so much fuzz made about taking shoes off, not touching other peoples heads, not having your head above the head of an elderly or person of higher respect/social standing, females ought not to touch a monk, he can't even receive direct alms from a female....and all this stuff.

But people spit wherever it suits them, clear their throats however they feel, picking their nose in front of another quite unmoved, living and selling goods in areas which would normally be sealed off as public health hazard...well, never stops to quite baffle me...

Edited October 31, 2008 by Samuian

[sylviex]

I am not Hofstede, but I find quite dazzling that there is so much fuzz made about taking shoes off, not touching other peoples heads, not having your head above the head of an elderly or person of higher respect/social standing, females ought not to touch a monk, he can't even receive direct alms from a female....and all this stuff.

I know what you mean, it's overdone ... but all the same, it's better to be aware of such customs, is it not ?

And some do represent very deeply-rooted Thai values - the head & feet/high & low etc which are interesting to explore.

There's a story that a Westerner was shot for pointing his feet at at a Thai -- if true, I bet that wasn't all he did. Most Thais will forgive us for transgressions like that. However, if you seriously transgress, with Buddha images or images of other very important people, you could get quite a bad reaction

But people spit wherever it suits them, clear their throats however they feel, picking their nose in front of another quite unmoved, living and selling goods in areas which would normally be sealed off as public health hazard...well, never stops to quite baffle me...

Spitting and coughing are considered good for the health in some cultures. I once saw someone do a very thorough ear and nose clean with his fingernails and then proceed to pick his teeth with equal thoroughness with those fingernails. That's close to breaking a taboo in some cultures !

All societies have contradictions, especially if we weren't brought up in them, but I do think Thais are quite good at them .

Edited October 31, 2008 by sylviex

[yabaaaa]

Oh you mean like countries then who always want to show who is the best. Always makes me laugh when a lot of the Uk athletes who are black win and then we rave about them winning medals at the Olympics.

I don't understand your post. Are you somehow inferring that black Bristish athletes are somehow not real citizens? I apologize if I am missing your point.

No Im not inferring that at all

[yabaaaa]

Oh you mean like countries then who always want to show who is the best. Always makes me laugh when a lot of the Uk athletes who are black win and then we rave about them winning medals at the Olympics.

I don't understand your post. Are you somehow inferring that black Bristish athletes are somehow not real citizens? I apologize if I am missing your point.

I think what he is getting at is that for 99% of the time, local Bangkokians don't really consider Issan folk as real Thais but when they win an Olympic Gold, all of a sudden their success is Thailand's and if but for a couple of days, everyone is equal.

I could be wrong but I suspect that in the upcountry areas where a Thai boxer / weightlifter hails from, I believe that a medal won in their minds is also a win for Issan.

(just generalising so relax)

Correct Black athletes are far superior in many sports you only have to look at the results for field and track etc

[aussimike]

I was wondering why Thai people are so crazy about acquiring newest mobile phones and the necessity to have a car (eventhough streets are full enough). Some people in my office that they have to lease expensive mobile phones eventhough their salry is scarce. Why are material goods so important in Thai culture eventhough it contradicts the essence of Buddhism?

And how is this different than people from most of the cultures in the world?

yes, it does. For exmaple in Thailand if you do not have a car nobody will even look at you.

Ronnie, get with the programme, those fools in cars can only gain face if the person next to them stuck in rushhour actually knows who they are. They haven't figured out that spending 50+% of their takehome to wake up at 530 am and get home at 9pm everynight so they can eat 25 baht rice and fried pork everynight before doing the same thing over again tomorrow exemplifies not only their questionable set of priorities, it also clearly demonstrates their uniquely poor sense of judgement.

Let the wrath of replies rain down, I am going for lunch - feel like foi gras because I don't waste my money to be another of the face chasing sheep stuck in the endless train of hondas and toyotas trying to crawl across the Taksin Bridge. BAAHHA AHHHA BA

Could not agree with you more -= in my 10 years living and working in the LOS i have been amazed with the desperate need to aquire the latest, best, brightest, biggest, newest, most expensive what ever - tv, phone, car, cloths, gold chains and watchers - all in the name of saving face and not having the OP next door looking down on you - the more that people precieve you have the more face you gain in their eyes - they have no idea that your eating sticky rice and gai yang every nite and dont care - IT ALL ABOUT FACE and how much you can gain with what u have -- no prob - the finance companies love it - being a repossession agent here must really be a full on job - hehe - and i will also enjoy a nice fillet mignon for dinner tonite while the rat race outside is buying their somtom from a push cart in the soi -- and no i sold my car - taxi and bts a lot better to get around bkk with the price of gasl, repairs etc, and i have not lost any face -

[Misplaced]

they have no idea that your eating sticky rice and gai yang every nite.

Whats wrong with eating sticky rice and gai yang every night? Personally i love both and can eat it all the times.

[Heng]

It's basically a common self rationalization on these threads to help folks deal with envy. Anyone with a nicer home must be in debt up to his/her eyeballs. Anyone with a nicer car/truck/boat/plane surely is secretly living in a shack. Anyone with 90+ chanotes in their office safe must be a corrupt politician/policeman or gangster.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Heng

[Maigo6]

hehe - and i will also enjoy a nice fillet mignon for dinner tonite while the rat race outside is buying their somtom from a push cart in the soi -- and no i sold my car - taxi and bts a lot better to get around bkk with the price of gasl, repairs etc, and i have not lost any face -

Seems you have some envy issues.